Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Boys Track & Field/Cross Country

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-16-18, 07:21 PM
slack419 slack419 is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 10-21-13
Posts: 15
slack419 is on a distinguished road
block rules

I am not sure what is going on, but want to learn a little more. I have heard something is coming on the rules side about mandating use of blocks in the 1, 2, and 400's. Does anyone know anything about this? What is the rule? And why is it in conversation? I don't want to take opinion from what I heard and am interested to hear all arguments.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 08-16-18, 08:26 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,913
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
I heard that also. Blocks for the 400 is stupid
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-16-18, 09:11 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 05-03-10
Location: Somewhere in the ether
Posts: 2,362
JAVMAN83 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
I heard that also. Blocks for the 400 is stupid
Maybe for beginners, but for anybody with experience as a sprinter, blocks are important for the 400m. Typical differences between reaction times for 100/200m sprinters and 400m sprinters are in the 0.10-0.15 second range. Not much difference, and a standing start for the 400m is less stable, IMHO.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-16-18, 09:19 PM
Altor Altor is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 06-29-10
Posts: 1,085
Altor is on a distinguished road
Blocks are required under IAAF and USATF rules for all races of 400 meters or less (or where the first leg of a relay is 400m or less). Lots of rules recently have been creeping down from USATF to NCAA to NFHS, so it would not surprise me if some are trying to make this a rule in those two books as well.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-17-18, 07:09 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 04-01-12
Posts: 963
EuclidandViren is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
I heard that also. Blocks for the 400 is stupid
Unless you run sub 50 for a boy or sub 57 for a girl I don't see the advantage for blocks.

If required- just have the kids stand up in the blocks.

The requirement from IAAF is purely the reactime false start detection system.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-17-18, 10:49 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,913
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Unless you run sub 50 for a boy or sub 57 for a girl I don't see the advantage for blocks.

If required- just have the kids stand up in the blocks.

The requirement from IAAF is purely the reactime false start detection system.
This is correct. Heard many college coaches say that if you dont run under 50 seconds for a boy or 60 for a girl....blocks are not necessary.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-17-18, 12:28 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 06-17-16
Posts: 235
CC Track Fan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
This is correct. Heard many college coaches say that if you dont run under 50 seconds for a boy or 60 for a girl....blocks are not necessary.
I don't agree with that. If you can start faster out of the blocks than you do just standing you should use the blocks. That .10 maybe gets you a PR maybe it get the runner honorable mention all conference. Or just maybe it moves a running up one spot and that point is what wins his or her team the conference title.

Times matter to all runners not just the fastest ones.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-17-18, 02:34 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 05-03-10
Location: Somewhere in the ether
Posts: 2,362
JAVMAN83 is on a distinguished road
My opinion is you're almost NEVER too young to learn how to use blocks. The sooner you learn to relax in them, and develop good mechanics coming out of them, the better. I coached college as well as competing at the D1 level, and I've never heard another college coach comment about at what point an athlete should begin using blocks.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-17-18, 05:55 PM
madman madman is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 09-27-10
Posts: 988
madman is on a distinguished road
There's a huge chasm between saying blocks are advantageous for some athletes and saying every athlete is required to use them.

This kind of crap is the result of two or more adults in a position of power arrogantly demonstrating they have that power.

Unless it's a matter of athlete safety our governing boards should avoid imposing requirements for the use of non-essential equipment no matter how advantageous it might be to some athletes' performances in the long run. These decisions should be left to coaches and athletes.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-17-18, 07:55 PM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,549
mathking is on a distinguished road
I completely agree with madman. Yes we encourage all of our 400 runners to use blocks. Even slower runners will be a little bit faster if they can start well out of the blocks. But at almost every dual meet we have distance kids or others who want to try the 400 who don't know how to come out of blocks.

And there is an equity issue. Some schools don't have blocks and a track. Requiring those kids to use blocks puts them at a further disadvantage.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-18-18, 03:18 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-17-10
Posts: 2,863
psycho_dad is on a distinguished road
There are rules and then there are "rules". It is a rule in our conference that each team can only have "x" number of athletes in an event at a dual meet. I have no idea the actual number because we do not ever follow that rule. I do not know if the rule applies to HS and MS or just MS and not HS. I am ignorant to the actual rule other than it does exist.

My throwers wear school issued uniforms. They do not wear sweat pants or sweat tops, I don't care what your kids wear though. If they have a name and step into the ring when it's called, they throw. There are rules and then there are "rules".

If you are an athlete on our team and you run the 400 or less, you start out of blocks. I don't care what Milton Union does. I don't care what any other team does.


All that said, Starting at the league meet, you should have proper uniforms and if the rule says you start out of blocks, you start out of blocks.

I disagree that there should be such a rule. I will be honest and say that if there is a rule that you have to use blocks in any event, I'm ignorant of it. It's stupid to have such rules. How must I use the blocks? Can I have them just sitting in my lane? Do I have to just be touching the blocks in some way? I'm pretty sure that I can set up blocks so that I'm touching both pads and still be standing in the same position as if there were no blocks at all. Stupid rule and easy to get around without there being a stink.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-18-18, 06:49 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,913
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Track Fan View Post
I don't agree with that. If you can start faster out of the blocks than you do just standing you should use the blocks. That .10 maybe gets you a PR maybe it get the runner honorable mention all conference. Or just maybe it moves a running up one spot and that point is what wins his or her team the conference title.

Times matter to all runners not just the fastest ones.
just go sit at a meet and watch how bad starts are out of the blocks for "most" girls in the 400. They arent making kids faster in most cases.

We have a full set of Moye and regualr blocks.....I tested kids for years out of them. about 90% of HS girls are faster through 30 meters out of the moye.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-18-18, 11:09 AM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-19-04
Posts: 3,119
said_aouita is on a distinguished road
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Track Fan View Post
I don't agree with that. If you can start faster out of the blocks than you do just standing you should use the blocks. That .10 maybe gets you a PR maybe it get the runner honorable mention all conference. Or just maybe it moves a running up one spot and that point is what wins his or her team the conference title.

Times matter to all runners not just the fastest ones.
Are we going to make a list, ways a runner may shave .10 off their PR time? Quite a few...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-18-18, 12:01 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 06-17-16
Posts: 235
CC Track Fan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
just go sit at a meet and watch how bad starts are out of the blocks for "most" girls in the 400. They arent making kids faster in most cases.

We have a full set of Moye and regualr blocks.....I tested kids for years out of them. about 90% of HS girls are faster through 30 meters out of the moye.
I didn't say all kids should use block and certainly don't think there should be a rule that they all have to.

But for a a coach to limit who uses a blocks to only the elite runners is not right either. If you would use those times as a cut-off as to who uses the blocks there would be no reason at most meets to even bring the blocks to the start line of the 400 or 4x400 because no one would use them.

As I said if the runner is faster out of the blocks they should use them. It is the job of both the coach and runner to work on starts so they are faster using the blocks.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-18-18, 12:56 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-03-10
Posts: 585
Newton's Third is on a distinguished road
When I hear of 400 runners not using blocks I think of faster distance runners placed in a conference 400 for points or postseason 4x400. When coaching I did not lead off a standing start 4x400 runner unless I had no choice. Against good people they lose a few tenths in the start and are less steady waiting for the gun in my experience. These distance kids really have never learned to use blocks and a crash course might not be worth time away from the weights or their regular practice routines. A rule saying blocks must be used eliminates a distance kid leading off for most teams.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-18-18, 04:34 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,913
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Track Fan View Post
I didn't say all kids should use block and certainly don't think there should be a rule that they all have to.

But for a a coach to limit who uses a blocks to only the elite runners is not right either. If you would use those times as a cut-off as to who uses the blocks there would be no reason at most meets to even bring the blocks to the start line of the 400 or 4x400 because no one would use them.

As I said if the runner is faster out of the blocks they should use them. It is the job of both the coach and runner to work on starts so they are faster using the blocks.
As a person that manages a dozen meets a year......no blocks in the 400 would surely save some time.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-18-18, 04:36 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,913
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
When I hear of 400 runners not using blocks I think of faster distance runners placed in a conference 400 for points or postseason 4x400. When coaching I did not lead off a standing start 4x400 runner unless I had no choice. Against good people they lose a few tenths in the start and are less steady waiting for the gun in my experience. These distance kids really have never learned to use blocks and a crash course might not be worth time away from the weights or their regular practice routines. A rule saying blocks must be used eliminates a distance kid leading off for most teams.
"Lose a few tenths????"

Link? Maybe they actually gain a few tenths?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-18-18, 05:13 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-03-10
Posts: 585
Newton's Third is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
"Lose a few tenths????"

Link? Maybe they actually gain a few tenths?
If you believe in a 4x400 lead off at a regional or state level, sprinters who have trained to use blocks lose a few tenths to distance runners who are not used to three commands and use a stand up start where their first step is usually backward, you should not be coaching.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-19-18, 03:28 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-17-10
Posts: 2,863
psycho_dad is on a distinguished road
Shouldn't be coaching? Really? That's the level of offense that rises to in your book?

We all do things well and we all do things not so well.

Every year we go up against teams that are much better coached in techniques and form. As a staff, we tend to rely more on inspiration and motivation than we do mastery of technique. We are very successful to a point. Are we wrong or are the coaches that are sticklers on technique wrong? Or, are we both right?

I have some kids that I focus on what they do right more than what they do wrong and then there are kids I spend nearly all their time working on correcting problems. I have kids that do 9 out of 10 things very well and don't do as well as teammates that do 2 out of 10 things well. Am I a better coach because I have gotten a kid to do 9 out 10 things right, or am I better because I got a kid to overcome 8 deficiencies?

Just because CC609 is wrong 8 out of 10 times doesn't mean he shouldn't coach.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-19-18, 07:03 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,913
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
If you believe in a 4x400 lead off at a regional or state level, sprinters who have trained to use blocks lose a few tenths to distance runners who are not used to three commands and use a stand up start where their first step is usually backward, you should not be coaching.
You are trying to justify this broad use of blocks by narrowing down to a specific instance. Lets stay with a general discussion. Blocks are useless in the 400 for about 90% of runners. THey would run just as fast with or without them. Its about 99% for JH.

A boy running 55 seconds (this would be a generous average across the state) can run that time without blocks. A girl running 65 seconds (once a gain a generous average) is running 16.5 seconds per 100. This can be done with a standing start for sure.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-19-18, 08:46 AM
fanofrunning fanofrunning is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 09-09-12
Posts: 383
fanofrunning is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
just go sit at a meet and watch how bad starts are out of the blocks for "most" girls in the 400. They arent making kids faster in most cases.
Definitely agree. With few exceptions, the first move is to stand up and then begin running. So much different than watching really good kids explode/leap/propel themselves from the blocks. Many boys do this as well. Don't see the point in making their use mandatory at the high school level.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-19-18, 09:00 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,913
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Just because CC609 is wrong 8 out of 10 times doesn't mean he shouldn't coach.
Being generous....thanks. I know I am right about this.......the start of a 400 is the least important part.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-19-18, 11:46 AM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,549
mathking is on a distinguished road
Ummm... even that 55 second 400 boy, if properly instructed, will run a tenth or two faster out of blocks. He will also be less likely the false start. Think about it. You would never tell a 55 second girl that blocks don’t matter. Yes it won’t help the 55 or 60 second kid proportionally as much as the 51 or 49 kid, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t learn. The key is whether we make them use blocks.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-19-18, 03:27 PM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 09-08-10
Posts: 1,981
cvctrackfan is on a distinguished road
Split the difference teach them to use moye blocks. I am not really a huge fan of them. My daughters coach used and he still uses them a lot.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-20-18, 06:33 AM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-03-10
Posts: 585
Newton's Third is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Ummm... even that 55 second 400 boy, if properly instructed, will run a tenth or two faster out of blocks. He will also be less likely the false start. Think about it.
This was my thought. If someone truly believes a distance runner from a standing start will have a few tenths advantage on a high level sprinter from blocks in a 400 is not thinking clearly or misunderstanding the topic. I saw CC609 comments as the tip of an iceberg. If that is believed what else goes into his coaching? Throwing the discus with the non dominant hand improves performance? Heavily weighted competition shoes helps jumpers? I know that he and I are not addressing the question from the same perspective and that is why I am overblowing it. There is some fun and sarcasm intended.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-20-18, 07:51 AM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,549
mathking is on a distinguished road
We actually use video to show kids the advantage of even a modestly competent block start compared to a standing start. Now for some kids, like really good distance runners, it probably does not make sense to invest a lot of time and effort into practice blocks just to lead off the 4x400. If you have the distance kid leading off your 4x400 it is probably for a reason. Trust that reason and don't sweat the blocks unless that's the only thing they will be doing in the post season. For primarily sprint kids, invest the time in learning how to properly use blocks. Aside from any time advantages kids gain a lot of confidence in themselves as their start improves.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-20-18, 09:19 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-17-10
Posts: 2,863
psycho_dad is on a distinguished road
Each kid deserves to be coached just the same as any other kid. 49 seconds or 59 seconds. You are a coach for everyone on the team, not just the top few. It makes you a better coach too.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-20-18, 09:45 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 04-01-12
Posts: 963
EuclidandViren is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctrackfan View Post
Split the difference teach them to use moye blocks. I am not really a huge fan of them. My daughters coach used and he still uses them a lot.
Moye blocks are not always an option at every meet. Even if you bring your own blocks they do always fit into the prescribed holes in the track that are designated for certain tracks.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-20-18, 12:40 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 05-03-10
Location: Somewhere in the ether
Posts: 2,362
JAVMAN83 is on a distinguished road
FYI - If you're athlete is at a level to receive even a notice from college coaches, switch the kids out of Moye blocks and into regular ones. Moye is ONLY allowed at the HS level.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-20-18, 11:52 PM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,549
mathking is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Each kid deserves to be coached just the same as any other kid. 49 seconds or 59 seconds. You are a coach for everyone on the team, not just the top few. It makes you a better coach too.


Yes
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NCAA Softball Rules Committee changes rules on slap bunting Yappi Softball 2 01-17-18 09:58 AM
2017 Rules Changes Mackinbiner Football 42 07-13-17 03:10 PM
Blaze engulfs apartment block in West London Yappi General Board 4 06-14-17 08:49 AM
2017-18 NFHS Rules Changes zebrastripes Boys Basketball 118 06-06-17 09:24 PM
Under ASA Rules, When does a game begin? Yappi Softball 2 05-10-17 03:15 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:35 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz