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  #1  
Old 09-12-18, 12:17 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Trinity and Spartan Invite

Big weekend in cross country approaching for the Midwest.

Friday Michigan State Spartan Invite
Saturday Trinity Louisville Invite

Any news on what teams are attending arguably the 2 best races in the Midwest.
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  #2  
Old 09-12-18, 12:49 PM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Trinity Valkyrie

Seeded Teams
All Teams

Spartan

All Teams
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  #3  
Old 09-12-18, 01:05 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Thanks man.

Trinity:
Centerville, Beavercreek, Medina, Upper Arlington, Hilliard Darby, St. Xavier.

Michigan State Sparty:
Tippaconoe, Thomas Worthington, St. Johns, St. Ursula(Toledo), Hudson, Hilliard Davidson, Fremont, Defiance, Coldwater, Centerville, Mason.
*some schools could be Michigan schools: Mason, Coldwater, Fremont I believe are all cities in Michigan too.
*Centerville girls are at Trinity and boys at MSU.
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  #4  
Old 09-12-18, 02:46 PM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
*some schools could be Michigan schools: Mason, Coldwater, Fremont I believe are all cities in Michigan too.
Mason boys and girls are at Cedarville on Saturday.
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  #5  
Old 09-12-18, 02:55 PM
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The only Spartan Invitational that matters this weekend in NE Ohio is the one at Boardman.

Don't forget about the Galion Invitational either. It's another weekend for some big meets.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 09-12-18 at 08:02 PM..
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  #6  
Old 09-12-18, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Thanks man.

Trinity:
Centerville, Beavercreek, Medina, Upper Arlington, Hilliard Darby, St. Xavier.

Michigan State Sparty:
Tippaconoe, Thomas Worthington, St. Johns, St. Ursula(Toledo), Hudson, Hilliard Davidson, Fremont, Defiance, Coldwater, Centerville, Mason.
*some schools could be Michigan schools: Mason, Coldwater, Fremont I believe are all cities in Michigan too.
*Centerville girls are at Trinity and boys at MSU.
A few things here:

1. MSU entry list shows only the girls are entered for Hilliard Davidson.
https://www.athletic.net/CrossCountr...144455&t=diay9

2. As you alluded to in your footnotes, there is a Hudson HS in Michigan, and they are entered at MSU. Hudson HS in Ohio has the Boardman Spartan Invitational on its schedule which is slightly surprising. The Hudson boys have often raced at Galion this particular weekend.

3. The St. Johns that's entered can't be from Toledo because they have girls entered in the meet. Plus, they'd probably enter by their full name of St. John's Jesuit anyway.

4. Highly unlikely that it's Mason (OH) entered. Not enough runners entered, and they're not entered in multiples of 7 like Tippecanoe to suggest that it's only the top varsty and JV types making the trip for them. Looks like the Comets are off this weekend and will run Saturday Night Lights next weekend.
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Old 09-13-18, 07:41 AM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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You are correct that is not Toledo St. John's they are running at Dave's XC Invite in Honor of Chet Sullwold at Ottawa Park Golf Course like every year against most of the top D1 schools in NW Ohio.

Bedford
Findlay
Maumee
Bowsher
Miamisburg
Anthony Wayne
Start
Southview
Springfield
Northview
Bowling Green
Central Catholic
St. Francis de Sales
St. John's Jesuit
Maumee Valley
Perrysburg
Whitmer
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  #8  
Old 09-13-18, 07:44 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
The only Spartan Invitational that matters this weekend in NE Ohio is the one at Boardman.
There's a lot of rich history at the Boardman meet. A "who's who" of NE Ohio runners have competed there over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
4. Highly unlikely that it's Mason (OH) entered. Not enough runners entered, and they're not entered in multiples of 7 like Tippecanoe to suggest that it's only the top varsty and JV types making the trip for them. Looks like the Comets are off this weekend and will run Saturday Night Lights next weekend.
Mason is competing at Cedarville this Saturday. You probably missed it but I posted that just prior to your first post in this thread.
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  #9  
Old 09-13-18, 09:43 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
There's a lot of rich history at the Boardman meet. A "who's who" of NE Ohio runners have competed there over the years.



Mason is competing at Cedarville this Saturday. You probably missed it but I posted that just prior to your first post in this thread.
Mason usually attends the highly touted Culver Invite next weekend at Culver Academy in Indiana. The JV's will run at Centerville.
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  #10  
Old 09-13-18, 10:38 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Mason usually attends the highly touted Culver Invite next weekend at Culver Academy in Indiana. The JV's will run at Centerville.
Actually it will be Mason's varsity and first JV team at Culver. The second JV team and everyone else will be at Centerville.
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  #11  
Old 09-13-18, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
Mason is competing at Cedarville this Saturday. You probably missed it but I posted that just prior to your first post in this thread.
I did miss that. Mason didn't have a meet listed on the schedule on their school website which immediately re-directed me to their schedule on Arbiter.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 09-13-18 at 11:21 AM..
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  #12  
Old 09-13-18, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
There's a lot of rich history at the Boardman meet. A "who's who" of NE Ohio runners have competed there over the years.
Check this out:
https://spartaninvite.com/monument-park/

https://spartaninvite.com/top-10-times/

https://spartaninvite.com/race-records/

Note: The most significant course change occurred in the fall of 2009 when the finish line was moved. The final sharp left turn and uphill crawl to the finish was replaced with a less sharp right turn and gradual downhill sprint to the finish. Hadley and Elswick would still have the top 2 times in the history of the course but not by nearly as great a margin over Ritchie's time from '92. For years, Ritchie's male course record seemed unbreakable. Radkewich's female course record may very well be unbreakable. Other course changes were made last fall. Time will tell, but they didn't seem to alter the speed of the course one way or another.

Some NEO DIs take a pass on the invitational (some head to VASJ for the McDonough and some go to Galion for a change of scenery), but most DIIs and DIIIs in NEO go to Boardman, especially the DIIIs.
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Old 09-13-18, 07:19 PM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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I, hear Loudon Valley Va. was rained out of their meet this weekend. I, hear they are coming to Boardman to run the D1 race. With a 4:08 guy, 8:58 guy, and a 9:02. Then Add in two 4:16 guys...
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  #14  
Old 09-14-18, 04:44 PM
xcrunner69 xcrunner69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctrackfan View Post
I, hear Loudon Valley Va. was rained out of their meet this weekend. I, hear they are coming to Boardman to run the D1 race. With a 4:08 guy, 8:58 guy, and a 9:02. Then Add in two 4:16 guys...
According to their coach, they will NOT be there tomorrow https://twitter.com/runthe8/status/1040666468357165056
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  #15  
Old 09-14-18, 07:48 PM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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Dang
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  #16  
Old 09-17-18, 01:28 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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I have never been to the Boardman Spartan Invite.

Question. Is the course decent?
How was the weather on Saturday?

With that many teams on the course last Saturday the winning teams were not impressive with their times.

Hudson- 2 guys under 17:00
Woodridge-1 guy under 17:00
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  #17  
Old 09-17-18, 01:58 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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the course is seldom "fast". For girls, the National Trail course is about 40 seconds faster than the boardman regional when there is similar weather/course conditions. This year's spartan invite was even slower due to very soft footing in the grass and "new" sandy surface in the woods. Over 1:00 slower than Tiffin last week for those who did both races (again, for girls).
you don't race boardman if you are looking for fast times.
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  #18  
Old 09-17-18, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
I have never been to the Boardman Spartan Invite.

Question. Is the course decent?
How was the weather on Saturday?

With that many teams on the course last Saturday the winning teams were not impressive with their times.

Hudson- 2 guys under 17:00
Woodridge-1 guy under 17:00
Unlike the bums in most of the rest of the state, we in NE Ohio still like to have a few courses where competition is valued more than fast times.

It's a good course but notorious for becoming muddy at the drop of a hat, and there are several false flat sections. There is a very small net elevation gain from start to finish (much less than the pre-2009 layout which had a considerable uphill drag to the finish line). It's more of a strength course than a speed course.

Incidentally, Youngstown St. used Boardman's course when it hosted the Horizon League Championship a few years ago.

If you have 20+ minutes that you don't mind never getting back (it's basically a double loop so you don't have to watch all of it), you can take a video tour here:

https://spartaninvite.com/course-information/

In '08 it rained so much at the invite that the course was damaged such that the regional was moved to GlenOak. I remember the rainwater cascading off the parking lot next to the halfway point and flowing right onto the course. That whole ordeal prompted Boardman to make some course changes out of fear that they would lose the regional meet for good.

Prior to '09, the finish was: you would continue past where the turn-off to the finish is now to slightly past the end of the parking lot (around 11:30 of the video) and then make a sharp left and continue uphill directly toward the middle school building. That finish eventually got a lot of complaints not so much because of the uphill but because runners were susceptible to falling on that final turn if it was muddy. People didn't want to see kids losing out on qualifying to state because of a sharp turn about 100m from the finish.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 09-17-18 at 04:01 PM..
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  #19  
Old 09-17-18, 03:52 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
Unlike the bums in most of the rest of the state, we in NE Ohio still like to have a few courses where competition is valued more than fast times.

It's a good course but notorious for becoming muddy at the drop of a hat, and there are several false flat sections. There is a very small net elevation gain from start to finish (much less than the pre-2009 layout which had a considerable uphill drag to the finish line). It's more of a strength course than a speed course.


Boardman, when itís not muddy, is a good, tough XC course. It is not a course for fast times, but (again, when itís not muddy) it isnít a course where the effort will hurt you the next week.

As for pot stirring... I remember very clearly in 2011 hearing some NE Ohio coaches complaining that National Trails was too easy and because of that disadvantaged their kids. If that was actually the case (itís not) then they shouldnít be running all those hard courses.
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  #20  
Old 09-17-18, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Boardman, when it’s not muddy, is a good, tough XC course. It is not a course for fast times, but (again, when it’s not muddy) it isn’t a course where the effort will hurt you the next week.

As for pot stirring... I remember very clearly in 2011 hearing some NE Ohio coaches complaining that National Trails was too easy and because of that disadvantaged their kids. If that was actually the case (it’s not) then they shouldn’t be running all those hard courses.
My stirring of the pot is a response to those who constantly obsess over times instead of paying any attention to competition. No matter what the winning times were, you don't have to look too far down the results to realize that the competition was where it usually is and that certain teams and individuals didn't suddenly forget how to run because their times aren't going to prompt major glorification from milesplit.

Back in the day, I used to laugh at those folks who complained that Scioto Downs was too hilly. While I think National Trail is far from a true test of XC running ability, I agree with you that kids from the NE are not at a major disadvantage going to that course from the Boardman course the previous week. I honestly think it can be an advantage if one wishes to treat it that way. Runners qualifying from Boardman should come in to National Trail expecting to run faster than they did at regionals, and that should excite them. When the teams from the NE have been good enough, they have won at National Trail. It's often too easy to overlook the fact that teams from other parts of the state are capable of performing, too, so if you want to win or get a high placing at state, you have to be good.

I don't think there's a single course in Ohio that would require a week of recovery for the caliber of HS kid that is competing at the state meet. We're not running up mountains here. A decade ago, Woodridge spent a few seasons where they went from running their home course one weekend on one of the most challenging courses in Ohio (I took pics of it once, but my electronic device doesn't adequately capture the elevation changes) to running Les Eisenhart the next weekend on a course with a profile and character of which you are likely familiar.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 09-17-18 at 04:57 PM..
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  #21  
Old 09-17-18, 04:50 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
My stirring of the pot is a response to those who constantly obsess over times instead of paying any attention to competition. No matter what the winning times were, you don't have to look too far down the results to realize that the competition was where it usually is and that certain teams and individuals didn't suddenly forget how to run because their times aren't going to prompt major glorification from milesplit.

While I think National Trail is far from a true test of XC running ability, I agree with you that kids from the NE are not at a major disadvantage going to that course from the Boardman course the previous week. When the teams from the NE have been good enough, they have won at National Trail. On the other side, I used to laugh at those folks who complained that Scioto Downs was too hilly.

I don't think there's a single course in Ohio that would require a week of recovery for the caliber of HS kid that is competing at the state meet. We're not running up mountains here. A decade ago, Woodridge spent a few seasons where they went from running their home course one weekend on one of the most challenging courses in Ohio (I took pics of it once, but my electronic device doesn't adequately capture the elevation changes) to running Les Eisenhart the next weekend on a course with a profile and character of which you are likely familiar.
I get why you were stirring the pot. I pretty much agree too. I find it irritating to have coaches vote to put a team that ran one screaming fast course ahead of teams that have beaten them soundly. (The district seeding meeting almost always leaves me frustrated.) I also find it irritating to every year hear that Darby or Galion "must be short because the kids there ran too fast." (Usually this is coming from people who say that times don't matter, and who then go on to try to explain to me how my laser surveying equipment can't possibly be accurate because someone they know wheeled the course.) Last year was a perfect experiment, because Darby was screaming fast (cool, dry, firm) for MMOC but not nearly as fast for OCCs two weeks later, when the ground was soft.

We try to run a variety of courses during the season to give kids different racing experiences and to make them realize that how you do against common opponents is a better measure of how fast you ran than absolute time. This past Saturday, for example, my #2 runner beat a bunch of girls who had been beating her, even though her actual time wasn't that close to her best.

On the subject of courses taking a while to recover from, ask coaches from the Central about the regional moving from Lancaster to Pickerington North. I don't know of any coaches who think PN is a better cross country course than Lancaster. I personally really like Lancaster's course. But I know more than a few who think that our kids have performed relatively better at the state meet since the switch from the old course at Lancaster (the new Lancaster course is a better XC course and I think would be a great regional course) to Pickerington North. My own look at the data says that a 16:00 boy who ran in the regional and the state meet from the central is running about 11 seconds faster, and a 19:00 girls about 13 seconds faster, than predicted performance since the switch.
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  #22  
Old 09-17-18, 05:11 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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So opening the bag of worms...
Compared to Tiffin?

Just asking because we race some people that ran at Galion and Boardman this week. I’m trying to run a scouting report. Just trying to get my 17:30 guys to eventually break 17:00 like everyone in the state. A comparable time would be great.
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  #23  
Old 09-17-18, 06:43 PM
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I keep some pretty detailed records for our athletes, our opponents and some select other teams. By the end of every season we have generally run against some teams and a bunch of individuals from each region. From this I have developed course ratings for all the courses we have run plus all the regional courses. We use this, and the results from any given day, to estimate how fast any given course is and thus to compare times. I have had pretty solid success with this over the years.

If you want I can look and see if we have any opponents who ran at the those two courses. If yes, I may be able to give you an estimate of the difference in speed. Gallon is a yes, and ran pretty fast.

Side note: the server i do all this on is is being shut down, so I am looking at rebuilding the model. In talking with some other coaches I am thinking about whether it would be worth the effort to make something open source.
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Old 09-18-18, 12:41 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Boardman looked to be 1:00 to 1:15 slower than it was last year for the boys.

EuclidandViren: Your 17:30 kids would have been around 18:45 to 19:00 I suppose.
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Old 09-18-18, 06:24 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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What about Adam Beucler from Hudson?

He ran 17:28 at Boardman. But he ran 15:48 at state last year and was 11th in the state. Is this guy injured or just a bad race? He won the 3 previous races in 2018.
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Old 09-18-18, 06:49 AM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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Euclidandviren. It was very hot and muggy . The athletes were sweating a ton. I’m guessing the conditions got to him. I was wondering why the rest of the field closed the gap on Hudson .
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Old 09-18-18, 08:00 AM
claynation claynation is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
I get why you were stirring the pot. I pretty much agree too. I find it irritating to have coaches vote to put a team that ran one screaming fast course ahead of teams that have beaten them soundly. (The district seeding meeting almost always leaves me frustrated.) I also find it irritating to every year hear that Darby or Galion "must be short because the kids there ran too fast." (Usually this is coming from people who say that times don't matter, and who then go on to try to explain to me how my laser surveying equipment can't possibly be accurate because someone they know wheeled the course.) Last year was a perfect experiment, because Darby was screaming fast (cool, dry, firm) for MMOC but not nearly as fast for OCCs two weeks later, when the ground was soft.

We try to run a variety of courses during the season to give kids different racing experiences and to make them realize that how you do against common opponents is a better measure of how fast you ran than absolute time. This past Saturday, for example, my #2 runner beat a bunch of girls who had been beating her, even though her actual time wasn't that close to her best.

On the subject of courses taking a while to recover from, ask coaches from the Central about the regional moving from Lancaster to Pickerington North. I don't know of any coaches who think PN is a better cross country course than Lancaster. I personally really like Lancaster's course. But I know more than a few who think that our kids have performed relatively better at the state meet since the switch from the old course at Lancaster (the new Lancaster course is a better XC course and I think would be a great regional course) to Pickerington North. My own look at the data says that a 16:00 boy who ran in the regional and the state meet from the central is running about 11 seconds faster, and a 19:00 girls about 13 seconds faster, than predicted performance since the switch.
Darby actually was short last year, though. Anywhere from 80-100m depending on whom you ask.

Galion is not short.
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Old 09-18-18, 10:21 AM
xcrunner69 xcrunner69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
What about Adam Beucler from Hudson?

He ran 17:28 at Boardman. But he ran 15:48 at state last year and was 11th in the state. Is this guy injured or just a bad race? He won the 3 previous races in 2018.
He stumbled and fell with about 150 meters to go. If you watch the video of the race that Milesplit uploaded, he started to stumble around the 2:55 mark and actually fell at the 3:00 mark. It looks like he was right behind Manley before he fell.
http://oh.milesplit.com/videos/302558
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Old 09-18-18, 10:55 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Wow! Gutsy to finish that race. I hope he recovers well. I have had many kids do that in a race and some never recovered the rest of the season. Sometimes that type of race can affect your whole season.
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Old 09-18-18, 11:28 AM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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It also shows what kind of team depth Hudson has. If he had of Dnf’d they still would have won the race. But, he does have to finish near Manley in order for them to repeat as champions. Looking at that video he was in pretty bad shape. We had that happen to our top runner at the district meet 15 years ago. She was near the lead with 1000 meters to go and didn’t finish at the regionals. At least Hudson has more then six to seven weeks before he has to be near top form .

Last edited by cvctrackfan; 09-18-18 at 11:41 AM..
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