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  #631  
Old 06-16-18, 07:33 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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In Bugsy's scenario, the reason why R2 is awarded home is because the throw by F5 is the second play from the infield. The award is now based on the time of the throw rather than the time of pitch.

thavoice......

Bring a friend or two with you next year!
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  #632  
Old 06-18-18, 12:37 PM
Peak Peak is offline
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Here's a fun scenario for you...

Setting: 12U Tournament Game (semi-finals). Only one umpire - behind the plate. These teams played each other the day before and there were some heated exchanges. The umpire at that game (different umpire) did not eject anyone, but handed out warnings to all involved which carried over into their next set of tournament games on Saturday. Tensions between the teams were already high when they met each other on Sunday.

Situation: Score is 5-2 in 5th inning. Home Team is winning and they are at bat. 1 out, bases loaded, a full count on the batter. The batter hits a grounder to third who fields it cleanly and throws to first. While this was happening the plate umpire lost his balance and fell on his back (either stepping on the catcher or his own two feet, the cause is unknown). The umpire did not see the play at first, only the runner standing on first and the first baseman with the ball. All base-runners advanced one base.

The umpire, confused and probably still hurting from the fall backwards into the dirt and backstop, calls the runner safe. The visiting team's coaches lost their minds and started yelling/screaming at the umpire that it was a routine ground-out and the runner was out. Umpire said he obviously didn't see it as he fell over. The coaches are still yelling at him. The umpire points to the first base coach who doesn't say anything - he knows better. The visiting teams coaches and now parents are going ape- over the gesture saying the umpire is giving preferential treatment. The coaches and parents are using expletives and making sailors blush. The accuse the first base coach of telling them to "F" off. The umpire tells them to calm down, but they won't. The home team's HC now gets involved and tries to calm the situation. Nothing is working.

Solution: The umpire calls for a replay of the at-bat as he didn't see the outcome. The visting team coaches are still yelling and cussing. Eventually all parties agree to it. The umpire restarts the at-bat with a clean count. The visiting team now argues that the batter should have 2 strikes on him to start the at bat. The home team's coaches now go crazy over the notion. Eventually the umpire calls for a clean slate on the count and restarts the at bat. The batter hits a line drive to center for a single scoring 2 runs. Visiting team's coaches and parents are all visibly upset and going nuts over this outcome. The home team goes on to score 3 more runs that inning. The visitng team had one more at bat due to time limit and ended up losing the game 10-2 in 6 innings.

Was the umpire's decision to do a replay of the at bat the right call? What happens if the umpire is unable to make a call due to some circumstance (blocked sight, out of position, on his back)?

Sidenote: some of the parents, myself included, went looking for tournament officials to help de-escalate the situation. Even coaches from other teams watching the game tried to step in and help - nothing would calm down the visiting team coaches/parents.
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  #633  
Old 06-18-18, 12:57 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Not sure what was the right thing or wrong thing to do in this situation but it's 12U baseball folks. Come on. No need to act like clowns. I miss coaching the kids but not situations like this.

But I am interested in hearing what some our actual umpires on here say about the situation.
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  #634  
Old 06-18-18, 01:36 PM
Peak Peak is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Not sure what was the right thing or wrong thing to do in this situation but it's 12U baseball folks. Come on. No need to act like clowns. I miss coaching the kids but not situations like this.

But I am interested in hearing what some our actual umpires on here say about the situation.
My thoughts exactly. It was actually a little embarrassing watching this foolishness go down at the time. The Home HC asked his parents to calm down and stay quiet, whereas the Visiting HC almost encouraged the behavior by carrying on the way he did - he was oblivious to everyone around him.
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  #635  
Old 06-18-18, 07:10 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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To answer the question, a "do-over" was not the route to take..... he didn't see the putout, so the play should have stood as originally called...

Last edited by AllSports12; 06-18-18 at 08:06 PM.
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  #636  
Old 06-18-18, 09:58 PM
BobcatBomber BobcatBomber is offline
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10u game. Pitcher is pitching with tempo. He’s ready to begin delivery once the umpire signals play is live. Umpire calls time, walks to the mound and tells pitcher he is not allowed to fast pitch.

Is this within umpire’s realm?
If pitcher is waiting for umpire’s signal, isn’t the onus on the batter to slow the pace?
I don’t recall hearing any complaints, so what would prompt the umpire to do this?
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  #637  
Old 06-19-18, 07:01 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatBomber View Post
10u game. Pitcher is pitching with tempo. He’s ready to begin delivery once the umpire signals play is live. Umpire calls time, walks to the mound and tells pitcher he is not allowed to fast pitch.

Is this within umpire’s realm?
If pitcher is waiting for umpire’s signal, isn’t the onus on the batter to slow the pace?
I don’t recall hearing any complaints, so what would prompt the umpire to do this?
An umpire can control the pace of play in order to ensure that the batter has adequate time to be ready to receive the pitch. One of the tools that is available to us (and recommended for use) is a simple "stop sign" (holding up the right hand until the batter is ready.

Now remember, this is 10u. It's summer ball. There are more games than umpires available. The kids are learning and may times the umpires are learning. The ability levels of the players and the umpires are at times closely matched... (not a slam at either, it's just reality)

This is where a coach can step in and politely ask the umpire to ask him for assistance in slowing his pitcher down. That can go a long way here.....
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  #638  
Old 06-19-18, 02:19 PM
multisportdad multisportdad is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
To answer the question, a "do-over" was not the route to take..... he didn't see the putout, so the play should have stood as originally called...
At 12U, and umpiring solo, would it be acceptable to conference with both head coaches, ask them what they saw, and if they agree make that call? Otherwise, make the safe call?

Obviously, this is an extraordinary situation, and not something you would employ on a regular basis.
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  #639  
Old 06-19-18, 02:38 PM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multisportdad View Post
At 12U, and umpiring solo, would it be acceptable to conference with both head coaches, ask them what they saw, and if they agree make that call? Otherwise, make the safe call?

Obviously, this is an extraordinary situation, and not something you would employ on a regular basis.
Not a bad suggestion. Call both managers to the plate, explain the situation that the call will stick as it was called because you fell (and only one umpire), but in the spirit of good sportsmanship, if the managers actually saw something totally different that could change the call and they agree, let's do it.

I think this can only work in the special situation described with the umpire falling and actually not seeing it. Don't want to open up a can of worms though...

One of the last things I like to say at my plate meetings is, "Let's all be leaders of great sportsmanship and enjoy the great game of baseball. Good luck" and shake hands.
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  #640  
Old 06-19-18, 02:53 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multisportdad View Post
At 12U, and umpiring solo, would it be acceptable to conference with both head coaches, ask them what they saw, and if they agree make that call? Otherwise, make the safe call?

Obviously, this is an extraordinary situation, and not something you would employ on a regular basis.
No, that would only open a door that doesn't need opening. It creates the possibility of an argument between the coaches if the one that benefited from the call refuses. that's a door that just doesn't need to be opened.

The only way I'd consider a change in this call to be appropriate is if the offensive team's head coach approached the umpire and offered that 1) the call was incorrect and 2) he would gladly accept the umpire's decision to change said call.

Sadly..... we'll all grow very old before that type of sportsmanship is exhibited.
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  #641  
Old 06-20-18, 06:38 AM
Peak Peak is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
No, that would only open a door that doesn't need opening. It creates the possibility of an argument between the coaches if the one that benefited from the call refuses. that's a door that just doesn't need to be opened.

The only way I'd consider a change in this call to be appropriate is if the offensive team's head coach approached the umpire and offered that 1) the call was incorrect and 2) he would gladly accept the umpire's decision to change said call.

Sadly..... we'll all grow very old before that type of sportsmanship is exhibited.
Very good point. The ump did bring the HCs together, but that was after he couldn't get one coach to settle down. The "do over" was about the only mutually accepted decision between the two HCs, but still not a good road to go down. What suprised me was that it was obvious the Ump fell over, yet I didn't hear either coach ask if he was okay. Tight backstop, so who knows how he fell or if he hit his head on the way down. His back was completely covered in dirt, so you know he fell without being able to prep himself or soften the blow.
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  #642  
Old 06-20-18, 10:56 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
No, that would only open a door that doesn't need opening. It creates the possibility of an argument between the coaches if the one that benefited from the call refuses. that's a door that just doesn't need to be opened.

The only way I'd consider a change in this call to be appropriate is if the offensive team's head coach approached the umpire and offered that 1) the call was incorrect and 2) he would gladly accept the umpire's decision to change said call.

Sadly..... we'll all grow very old before that type of sportsmanship is exhibited.
Saw that once a few years ago.
Team A hit a tying HR in the bottom of the last inning, but the hitter/runner was high fived/touched by a player on the way to the plate and the umpire called him out, no run, game over.

Team's coach who would have WON the game approached the umpire and stated that the call was wrong, that is not a rule, and the umpire changed the call to allow the run to score and tie the game.
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  #643  
Old 07-16-18, 01:33 PM
LaneDixon LaneDixon is offline
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Situation: Runners on 2nd and 3rd. Pitcher comes set from the stretch. Spins to first and realizes there is no runner on First base. Never throws the ball. Does this violate any rules?
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  #644  
Old 07-16-18, 01:35 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Originally Posted by LaneDixon View Post
Situation: Runners on 2nd and 3rd. Pitcher comes set from the stretch. Spins to first and realizes there is no runner on First base. Never throws the ball. Does this violate any rules?
Yes, that is a balk
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  #645  
Old 07-16-18, 01:37 PM
LaneDixon LaneDixon is offline
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Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Yes, that is a balk
That is what we all thought. Is the reason, you cannot fake a throw to an unoccupied base?
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  #646  
Old 07-16-18, 09:40 PM
BobcatBomber BobcatBomber is offline
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First base is the only base you are required to throw to if you make a move on delivery. You have to step off the mound with your back foot if you aren’t going to make the throw.

Pretty sure that’s the reason.
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  #647  
Old 07-16-18, 09:45 PM
BobcatBomber BobcatBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Saw that once a few years ago.
Team A hit a tying HR in the bottom of the last inning, but the hitter/runner was high fived/touched by a player on the way to the plate and the umpire called him out, no run, game over.

Team's coach who would have WON the game approached the umpire and stated that the call was wrong, that is not a rule, and the umpire changed the call to allow the run to score and tie the game.
This happened at a tournament this year for 10u kids. Home run disallowed because the team was excited and got to him before touching the plate. Pretty ridiculous rule, IMO. Especially at 10u level. Doesnít happen often and itís a pretty exciting thing. I realize ya gotta teach them right from the get go, but man, thatís a harsh penalty.

My son hit his first HR later that day and instead of everyone cheering for him, parents were yelling for the bench to stay away until he crossed the plate. You can hear it from the video another parent captured of the play.
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  #648  
Old 07-18-18, 07:52 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatBomber View Post
This happened at a tournament this year for 10u kids. Home run disallowed because the team was excited and got to him before touching the plate. Pretty ridiculous rule, IMO. Especially at 10u level. Doesnít happen often and itís a pretty exciting thing. I realize ya gotta teach them right from the get go, but man, thatís a harsh penalty.

My son hit his first HR later that day and instead of everyone cheering for him, parents were yelling for the bench to stay away until he crossed the plate. You can hear it from the video another parent captured of the play.
Under The Official Baseball Rules, NCAA Rules, and NFHS Rules, this is not a violation of any rule.

Maybe a league rule or a rule set (Little League?)that prohibits this?
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  #649  
Old 07-18-18, 08:07 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by LaneDixon View Post
That is what we all thought. Is the reason, you cannot fake a throw to an unoccupied base?
Without disengaging the pitcher's plate......

- It is illegal to feint a throw to first base whether or not it is occupied

- It is illegal to feint or throw to an unoccupied base unless it is an attempt to put out or drive back a runner.
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  #650  
Old 07-25-18, 12:44 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Here is a question for MLB or any level that utilizes replays/challenges.
Runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs, runner going from 1st to 2nd is called out by the ump for the third out but after a replay is ruled safe. Because the 3rd out was recorded and signaled by the ump, the runner going from 2nd to 3rd stopped halfway between the bases (3rd and home, not 2nd and 3rd) but likely would have scored if the ump had originally called safe, but was tagged by a fielder just in case the call was overturned. Would the lead runner be awarded home, would he be placed at 3rd base or would he be out keeping in mind that the incorrect call for the 3rd out at 2nd base effectively ended the inning.
So what is the rule for overturned calls on challenges when the incorrect call affected the outcome of the play in a manner such as outlined above?

Keep in mind the real life outcome was that the runner was safe barely, but was still ruled out (the call was upheld) likely to avoid this situation and a lengthy delay trying to figure out what to do.

Last edited by simkon; 07-25-18 at 01:11 PM.
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  #651  
Old 07-25-18, 12:46 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Originally Posted by simkon View Post
Here is a question for MLB or any level that utilizes replays/challenges.
Runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs, runner going from 1st to 2nd is called out by the ump for the third out but after a replay is ruled safe. Because the 3rd out was recorded and signaled by the ump, the runner going from 2nd to 3rd stopped halfway between the bases but likely would have scored if the ump had originally called safe, but was tagged by a fielder just in case the call was overturned. Would the lead runner be awarded home, would he be placed at 3rd base or would he be out keeping in mind that the incorrect call for the 3rd out at 2nd base effectively ended the inning.
So what is the rule for overturned calls on challenges when the incorrect call affected the outcome of the play in a manner such as outlined above?
I don't know MLB's exact rule. Common sense would say put the runner on third.
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  #652  
Old 07-25-18, 01:14 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
I don't know MLB's exact rule. Common sense would say put the runner on third.
Just for clarity the lead runner was halfway down the 3rd baseline, not between 2nd and 3rd when he stopped. The lead runner was going on the pitch so was already around 3rd and halfway to home when the out was recorded and would have easily scored had he continued.
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  #653  
Old 07-26-18, 06:22 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by simkon View Post
Just for clarity the lead runner was halfway down the 3rd baseline, not between 2nd and 3rd when he stopped. The lead runner was going on the pitch so was already around 3rd and halfway to home when the out was recorded and would have easily scored had he continued.
It's the judgment of the guys in New York as to where runners would be placed.


MLB Replay Review

"If a call is changed by Replay Review, the Replay Official also shall inform the Crew Chief of any placement of runners or such other actions as may be necessary in the Replay Official's judgment to place both Clubs in the same position that they would have been in had the changed call been correct in the first instance."
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  #654  
Old 07-26-18, 07:32 AM
simkon simkon is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
It's the judgment of the guys in New York as to where runners would be placed.
The main confusion is from the lead runner being tagged out after 3 outs were already recorded. If he had not been tagged then it would be easy to say put him on 3rd or say he would have scored.
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  #655  
Old 07-26-18, 09:20 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simkon View Post
Here is a question for MLB or any level that utilizes replays/challenges.
Runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs, runner going from 1st to 2nd is called out by the ump for the third out but after a replay is ruled safe. Because the 3rd out was recorded and signaled by the ump, the runner going from 2nd to 3rd stopped halfway between the bases but likely would have scored if the ump had originally called safe, but was tagged by a fielder just in case the call was overturned. Would the lead runner be awarded home, would he be placed at 3rd base or would he be out keeping in mind that the incorrect call for the 3rd out at 2nd base effectively ended the inning.
So what is the rule for overturned calls on challenges when the incorrect call affected the outcome of the play in a manner such as outlined above?
There is no MLB umpire that will award a runner home on this play.

The ball is in the infield and the runner is half way to third when the original tag attempt was made. Even if he didn't slow down he's an easy out at the plate.

Last edited by AllSports12; 07-26-18 at 05:24 PM.
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  #656  
Old 07-26-18, 10:07 AM
simkon simkon is offline
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This is the location of all players at the moment the force out was recorded at 2nd.
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  #657  
Old 07-26-18, 11:15 AM
jmog jmog is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
Allsports stated the rule.

The "one from the mound, two from the field" can be misleading as I also use to hear that one as a player and from others. If the pitcher disengages the rubber by stepping back and trying to pick off a runner at 1B and the ball goes out, that runner is getting 3B because the pitcher now becomes an infielder by stepping back. Sometimes this will need to be explained to some coaches.

It has been over 10 years since I umpired (usually 14U, used to be called F league). However, if I am not mistaken...

On a pick off move to first (assuming the pitcher stepped off the back of the rubber), there are two scenarios that have 2 different outcomes on a throw that goes out of bounds.

If the runner was going back to the base/diving back to 1B, then he is only awarded 2B because he was awarded 1B and 2B as his "2 bases from the field" as he was attempted to return to 1B safely.

However, if the runner immediately took off for 2B on a "steal" attempt he is awarded 3B because his 2 "bases" are 2B and 3B.

I believe I am correct but I am going off memory from over 10 years ago so I am willing to be wrong.

Now that I have typed it all out I am second guessing and maybe the runner does get 3B regardless of what they were doing.

Same rule would apply during a "run down" between 1B and 2B I suppose. If a throw goes out of bounds and in that case the runner is always awarded 3B.

I think I have just talked myself out of my original statement.....glad I could muddy up my own mind (sucks getting old).

Of course now I want to get back into Umpiring...

I will say, that the most I was ever "questioned" about with the "2 from the field" is that most coaches/parents did not understand that the "2 from the field" was 2 bases from the base that was safely occupied from when the throw started, not when it went out of bounds. I can't tell you how many times I had to explain that when an outfielder threw a ball out of bounds and the runner that had just got to 2B as the throw trickled OB "only" got 3B.
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  #658  
Old 07-26-18, 01:53 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simkon View Post
This is the location of all players at the moment the force out was recorded at 2nd.
This is an example of why I hesitate to discuss specific situations and focus on rules and mechanics, as you significantly changed the dynamics of the play.

In the end, it's up to the replay officials to determine where the runners are placed had the call been correct, thereby not affecting further action.
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  #659  
Old 07-26-18, 02:02 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by jmog View Post
It has been over 10 years since I umpired (usually 14U, used to be called F league). However, if I am not mistaken...

On a pick off move to first (assuming the pitcher stepped off the back of the rubber), there are two scenarios that have 2 different outcomes on a throw that goes out of bounds.

If the runner was going back to the base/diving back to 1B, then he is only awarded 2B because he was awarded 1B and 2B as his "2 bases from the field" as he was attempted to return to 1B safely.

However, if the runner immediately took off for 2B on a "steal" attempt he is awarded 3B because his 2 "bases" are 2B and 3B.
In the past 50+ years, base awards on balls thrown into dead ball territory have not, under any major rule code, (OBR, NCAA, NFHS) been based on the direction the runner was running or leaning towards. The award in your scenario is two bases from the base the runner had legally occupied at the time of the throw.

Last edited by AllSports12; 07-26-18 at 05:35 PM.
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  #660  
Old 07-26-18, 03:45 PM
BobcatBomber BobcatBomber is offline
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Can someone explain to me why a 1st and 2nd strike foul ball that is fouled into the mitt of a catcher is not an out, but the 3rd strike is?
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