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  #1  
Old 05-02-19, 01:31 PM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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When is a female not a female

The sports world’s highest court ruled Wednesday that Olympic gold medalist Caster Semenya and other female runners like her with unusually high testosterone must take medication to reduce their levels of the male sex hormone if they want to compete in certain events – a landmark decision with far-reaching ramifications for other women’s sports.

In a 2-1 ruling, the Court of Arbitration for Sport upheld proposed rules issued by track’s governing body, the IAAF, saying that they are discriminatory but that “such discrimination is a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means” of “preserving the integrity of female athletics.”

The IAAF argued that high, naturally occurring levels of testosterone in athletes like Semenya with “intersex” characteristics that don’t conform to standard definitions of male and female give them an unfair competitive
advantage.

From the Associated Press news wires
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  #2  
Old 05-02-19, 02:10 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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I think it is a fair ruling. She and several other athletes that are born intersexed are in a category of their own, IMHO.

Transgenders are a whole nuther issue. I don't believe any of them should be competing, period. It is an artificial construct. It is NOT nature, nor nature's God creating them as such. Especially the MTF, where boys/men that are clearly male by DNA are allowed to compete with women. Complete BS, IMHO. It will destroy women's sport if that is allowed to continue.
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Old 05-02-19, 05:01 PM
madman madman is offline
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A society that can accept gender fluidity will not be able to tolerate two rigid sports classifications long term. I don't know how this will play out.

I believe this ruling did extend the life of separate sports competitions for the two gender classifications, but I can't help but think it's a temporary situation.

I can foresee the day when we have competitions classificiations based on body chemistry or no classifications at all. The former would allow us to have as many classifications as we want and would enable the creation of a whole new set of world records and the enthusiasm that comes with them. The later probably kills sports opportunities for most of society.

Last edited by madman; 05-02-19 at 10:36 PM..
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  #4  
Old 05-02-19, 05:56 PM
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I really do not know how to feel about this ruling. Conceptually I understand the issue and the corrective measure their are trying to put in place. I see Java's point but this in theory could effect anyone who has naturally elevated testosterone. I guess my question is where do we draw the line. Do we start other test for abnormal fast twitch muscles? I know that is not being scientific but I hope it is getting my point across.

Also with this ruling why is it only going to cover a small amount of events. If I am reading this correctly and she was a 10k runner or in the weights this new rule would not apply.
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Old 05-02-19, 06:16 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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I will go with my 5 year old watching TV once and asked "Daddy, why does that boy get to run against those girls"?
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  #6  
Old 05-02-19, 06:51 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skins99 View Post
I really do not know how to feel about this ruling. Conceptually I understand the issue and the corrective measure their are trying to put in place. I see Java's point but this in theory could effect anyone who has naturally elevated testosterone. I guess my question is where do we draw the line. Do we start other test for abnormal fast twitch muscles? I know that is not being scientific but I hope it is getting my point across.

Also with this ruling why is it only going to cover a small amount of events. If I am reading this correctly and she was a 10k runner or in the weights this new rule would not apply.
Yes, it only applies to a limited # of events, those where the testosterone affects the most.

With regard to the maximum limit set, I believe the ruling calls for hormone levels to be brought down to 10 nmol/liter (my recollection), which is evidently still TWICE the average woman's level.
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Old 05-02-19, 07:37 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
10 nmol/liter (my recollection), which is evidently still TWICE the average woman's level.
I guess if they are accepting these levels, someone owes Mary Slaney one hell of an apology.
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Old 05-02-19, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
Yes, it only applies to a limited # of events, those where the testosterone affects the most.

With regard to the maximum limit set, I believe the ruling calls for hormone levels to be brought down to 10 nmol/liter (my recollection), which is evidently still TWICE the average woman's level.
1. Why are you shouting?
2. I thought I read 5 nmol?
3. The reason I asked about the specific events is it's an odd ruling. Obviously its directed to try to slow down a certain athlete. The NCAA banned dunking to slow down Lew Alcindor. That rule covered everyone. This ruling is in my opinion similar to that rule except it only applies to power forwards.
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  #9  
Old 05-02-19, 10:09 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skins99 View Post
1. Why are you shouting?
2. I thought I read 5 nmol?
3. The reason I asked about the specific events is it's an odd ruling. Obviously its directed to try to slow down a certain athlete. The NCAA banned dunking to slow down Lew Alcindor. That rule covered everyone. This ruling is in my opinion similar to that rule except it only applies to power forwards.
I'm not shouting. When I want to shout, I'll use ALL CAPS!

I use caps only when I want to emphasize a word or phrase, not to yell.

You are correct on the 5nmol/L. The following link indicates normal ranges for males & females as accepted by the parties:

https://www.insidethegames.biz/artic...drum-a-tragedy

Semenya is not the only one with DSD. Niyonsaba also claims to be in the same situation. Both went 1-2 at the 2017 WC's. Neither runs like a true female. Sorry to sound sexist, but don't care. The 5 year old of ccrunner609 nailed it perfectly.
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  #10  
Old 05-02-19, 10:29 PM
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Ultimately this is such an easy decision. For a hundred years now they have been screaming equality, equality, equality. We've now reached a point, following 50 tears of reverse discrimination against men, where I say make the whole dam shabang one big equal playing field...and may the best organism win. See how they like that kind of equality.
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  #11  
Old 05-03-19, 07:02 AM
runnerboy1510 runnerboy1510 is offline
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I still don't understand how everyone has missed the biggest FACT in this case. She has XY Chromosomes. Here is a small exert from Lets run on the topic and their article is one of the better ones on the issue at hand. We can't forget about the concern at hand here, and that's this is not a psychical difference, it's a biological difference and no XX women can't reach those levels.

Small exert from letsrun

"1) Caster Semenya Has XY Chromosomes
It’s absolutely mind-boggling that virtually every major outlet in the world reporting the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling yesterday has failed to mention one of the most important facts of the entire case. Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes. It was generally accepted by people following the case closely that Semenya was XY, but now it’s been confirmed as fact since the CAS press release specifically says, “The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with ’46 XY DSD’ – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes.” If she wasn’t XY, the IAAF’s regulations wouldn’t apply to her and she’d have no reason to challenge them.

(In case you forgot what you learned in junior high biology, typically females have XX chromosomes while males are XY)."
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  #12  
Old 05-03-19, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by runnerboy1510 View Post
I still don't understand how everyone has missed the biggest FACT in this case. She has XY Chromosomes. Here is a small exert from Lets run on the topic and their article is one of the better ones on the issue at hand. We can't forget about the concern at hand here, and that's this is not a psychical difference, it's a biological difference and no XX women can't reach those levels.

Small exert from letsrun

"1) Caster Semenya Has XY Chromosomes
It’s absolutely mind-boggling that virtually every major outlet in the world reporting the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling yesterday has failed to mention one of the most important facts of the entire case. Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes. It was generally accepted by people following the case closely that Semenya was XY, but now it’s been confirmed as fact since the CAS press release specifically says, “The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with ’46 XY DSD’ – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes.” If she wasn’t XY, the IAAF’s regulations wouldn’t apply to her and she’d have no reason to challenge them.

(In case you forgot what you learned in junior high biology, typically females have XX chromosomes while males are XY)."
This. Exactly.
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  #13  
Old 05-03-19, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
I'm not shouting. When I want to shout, I'll use ALL CAPS!

I use caps only when I want to emphasize a word or phrase, not to yell.

You are correct on the 5nmol/L. The following link indicates normal ranges for males & females as accepted by the parties:

https://www.insidethegames.biz/artic...drum-a-tragedy

Semenya is not the only one with DSD. Niyonsaba also claims to be in the same situation. Both went 1-2 at the 2017 WC's. Neither runs like a true female. Sorry to sound sexist, but don't care. The 5 year old of ccrunner609 nailed it perfectly.
You used all caps when you said TWICE. I am going back to my first post. I get what the governing body is trying to do, also conflicted because this is not a cut and dry issue. Still have major issues with the limited scope for the ruling. Either it covers all events are none at all imo.
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  #14  
Old 05-03-19, 08:14 AM
RunnerAdespota RunnerAdespota is offline
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IMO Steve Magness had a pretty fair take on this whole thing on Twitter https://twitter.com/stevemagness/sta...494045698?s=19

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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  #15  
Old 05-03-19, 08:35 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Originally Posted by RunnerAdespota View Post
IMO Steve Magness had a pretty fair take on this whole thing on Twitter https://twitter.com/stevemagness/sta...494045698?s=19

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
While some of his points are good....others are easily cross examined and can be torn apart in a debate.
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Old 05-03-19, 08:40 AM
Seppo Kaitainen Seppo Kaitainen is offline
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A few things:
1. While it seems likely that Caster is an intersex athlete, those findings have not been released, anything else is speculation.
2. This is a tricky issue. It would be really nice to be on the side of protecting women's sports as a protected class without putting yourself on the side of racists and homophobes.
3. If Caster is intersex, it means she was likely born with an androgen insensitivity that means her body didn't develop male genitals in utero (female is the default). Thus, until puberty, there would've been no outward signs that she wasn't a "normal" little girl.
4. It does seem that this ruling targets her specifically or at least a very few individuals rather that addressing the role of intersex athletes in women's athletics.
5. I hope that, going forward, we can find a way to protect women's athletics while also respecting the athletes caught in the middle.
6. There were similar fairness issues brought up when Oscar Pistorius was allowed to race in the Olympics. It wasn't as big of a deal because he didn't make the final, but it might be another issue to watch as technology improves. If there were a few double amputees dominating men's track, there would be a similar debate.
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Old 05-03-19, 11:58 AM
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...You guys are way too intellectual for me
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  #18  
Old 05-03-19, 12:16 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Letsrun.com is stating that Cas has an XY chromosome. That is male.
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Old 05-03-19, 12:39 PM
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Anyone on LetsRun saying that she has XY chromosomes is basing on what people have said. That has not and would not be something disclosed because to do so would be a violation of the IAAF rules, Court of Arbitration for Sport rules, several international treaties and here in United States, our laws. As Seppo Kaitainen said, she is likely intersex. In spite of what some of us may have learned about XX, XY, XXX, XYY, XXY and the other chromosomal variations, gender is in fact a lot more biologically complicated than that. There are many, many developmental factors that influence gender development. And this is absolutely not a simple issue from a scientific point of view. Just ask a human biologist.

There are a lot of biological differences that produce advantages and disadvantages, some with as large or larger effects than the biological advantage Semenya has. The huge focus on her differences are because she was an Olympic champion and because there is a lot of social baggage that goes with it. A lot. If you don't believe that, just read the referenced thread on LetsRun.
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Old 05-03-19, 03:45 PM
lane4 lane4 is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Anyone on LetsRun saying that she has XY chromosomes is basing on what people have said. That has not and would not be something disclosed because to do so would be a violation of the IAAF rules, Court of Arbitration for Sport rules...

Since only women with 46 XY DSD are to have their T-levels regulated(per the CAS executive summary), it's fair to assume with relative certainty Semenya is XY
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Old 05-03-19, 10:54 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Fair enough then. My understanding was that they put the rule in place for all 17 cases that were subsumed over the past three years.
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  #22  
Old 05-04-19, 11:01 AM
Running Man 101 Running Man 101 is offline
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The regulatory agencies are creeping into a way of dealing with this issue.

They will take an approach similar to the cycling; define a normal range of biological markers and you must fall within that to compete as a man or woman. If you don't fall within that range you are out, period.

If a biological male wants to compete as a woman THEY must submit documentation of these markers going back 3 years. The testing must be done monthly, otherwise it is the same as taking steroids.
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Old 05-04-19, 11:51 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Anyone on LetsRun saying that she has XY chromosomes is basing on what people have said. That has not and would not be something disclosed because to do so would be a violation of the IAAF rules, Court of Arbitration for Sport rules, several international treaties and here in United States, our laws. As Seppo Kaitainen said, she is likely intersex. In spite of what some of us may have learned about XX, XY, XXX, XYY, XXY and the other chromosomal variations, gender is in fact a lot more biologically complicated than that. There are many, many developmental factors that influence gender development. And this is absolutely not a simple issue from a scientific point of view. Just ask a human biologist.

There are a lot of biological differences that produce advantages and disadvantages, some with as large or larger effects than the biological advantage Semenya has. The huge focus on her differences are because she was an Olympic champion and because there is a lot of social baggage that goes with it. A lot. If you don't believe that, just read the referenced thread on LetsRun.
The info on that website is form the owner and operator of the site. I dont think he is just "anyone"
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Old 05-04-19, 12:43 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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The info on that website is form the owner and operator of the site. I dont think he is just "anyone"
Yeah, that it is the operator of LetsRun would not, for me, necessarily be an indication of credibility.
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  #25  
Old 05-04-19, 10:33 PM
nooks nooks is offline
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...next they'll be saying that FloJo was clean
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Old 05-05-19, 01:21 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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...next they'll be saying that FloJo was clean
1988 Olympics were on an equitable basis. If you don't think so, I've got more swamp land in Florida to sell you.
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Old 05-05-19, 02:13 PM
nooks nooks is offline
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Been around too much & seen too much. Even so, I still understand the need to "want to believe." I still have it too.
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