Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Boys Track & Field/Cross Country

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-18-19, 11:01 AM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 19,163
Mr. Slippery will become famous soon enough
How Do You Score This Situation?

This happened a few weeks ago at a meet I attended, but I couldn't find a satisfactory explanation in the rule book for how to score the situation detailed below. I also do not have a copy of the case book which may offer a proper ruling for this situation:

Triangular meet being timed with an 8-Lane. Boys 100m Dash. 1st 2 guys are easily picked and placed ahead of everyone else, but from 3rd to 5th place we have the following:

Runner A - 12.12 hand time from Heat 3
Runner B - 12.15 hand time from Heat 2
Runner C - 12.18 hand time from Heat 3

We're using an 8-Lane, so all 3 are hand times that would be rounded up to 12.2. I do know that ties from identical hand times in different heats cannot be broken and must be ruled as a tie. However, we still have the fact that A was picked ahead of C from the same heat, so those 2 shouldn't tie.

Who ties with who? None of the possibilities were going to affect the order of placing in the overall team standings, but FWIW, I opted to tie B with A and split the 3rd and 4th place points between them for letter point purposes, but I could also see that being the incorrect ruling.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-18-19, 11:17 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 05-03-10
Location: Somewhere in the ether
Posts: 2,728
JAVMAN83 is on a distinguished road
I don't know what the rule book says, but there should be a run-off, IMHO, between all 3. Meet management created this mess by not having succeeding heats to determine place and assuming that there would sufficient differences between heat times to ensure no problems. Meet management created the problem...they should fix it through a run-off. I've seen it done at district meets at Anderson HS in the past to determine who advances to a succeeding round.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-18-19, 11:25 AM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 19,163
Mr. Slippery will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
I don't know what the rule book says, but there should be a run-off, IMHO, between all 3. Meet management created this mess by not having succeeding heats to determine place and assuming that there would sufficient differences between heat times to ensure no problems. Meet management created the problem...they should fix it through a run-off. I've seen it done at district meets at Anderson HS in the past to determine who advances to a succeeding round.
If this was a postseason meet, I would believe that a run-off would be the proper course of action. I once saw a 110H run-off to begin the 2nd day of the regional to determine the last qualifier for the final. The FAT system had failed on 1 of the qualifying heats, so they had to hand time both and had a tie for 8th.

In the situation I described however, nobody's conducting a run-off for a placing in a triangular meet. I don't think any of the 3 coaches would have demanded it even if it would be the proper thing to do.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-18-19, 11:33 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 10-06-16
Posts: 128
ENA2 is on a distinguished road
Mr. Slippery did it right.... If the pickers placed the two in heat 3 in that order.
Keep in mind, if the pickers in heat 3 would have picked the the 12.18 ahead of the 12.12, then the 12.15 in heat 2 still would have been tied for 3rd and split the points and the 12.12 would have been 5th even though he had the 3rd best time.

But Javman is also correct.... You could have a runoff with 2 or all 3 to determine 3rd/4th place.... but the runoff could also just be between the 12.12 and the 12.15 because runner A had already beaten runner C.

To confuse things further, When would the run off occur?
Right afterthe 100?
after 20 minutes?
15 minutes after the 4 x 400?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-18-19, 12:19 PM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,631
mathking is on a distinguished road
At a dual or tri meet I think you did it correctly. Before we auto timed our dual meets (a godsend for me not because the kids get FAT times but because it means I can actually do a little coaching) we only recorded the times to the tenth of a second so that there would be less confusion. Two identical times in different heats tie. Within a heat you go with the picked place.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-18-19, 01:37 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 3,039
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
LOL at a runoff.....its a Tri meet.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-18-19, 02:06 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-03-10
Posts: 634
Newton's Third is on a distinguished road
In my thinking a tri meet should have one varsity heat for each event with the other heats jv or unscored so that there is one head to head scoring heat. An 8 lane track with 9 potential entrants makes this a little shaky and your example could occur. Using this format, runner B would have to be the 3rd runner from the team without three in the varsity heat. This is less likely but possible.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-18-19, 02:15 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 05-03-10
Location: Somewhere in the ether
Posts: 2,728
JAVMAN83 is on a distinguished road
In re-reading this situation, given it's a little triangular meet, A & B tie for 3rd and split the points for 3rd & 4th, 5th goes to C. End of story.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-18-19, 07:26 PM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 19,163
Mr. Slippery will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
In my thinking a tri meet should have one varsity heat for each event with the other heats jv or unscored so that there is one head to head scoring heat. An 8 lane track with 9 potential entrants makes this a little shaky and your example could occur. Using this format, runner B would have to be the 3rd runner from the team without three in the varsity heat. This is less likely but possible.
Additional info: this was the 1st meet of the season for 2 of the 3 teams, so we'd yet to have a complete picture of who the best sprinters were from each team to be certain they were heated properly. We generally would like to have the fastest kids from each team in the same heat, usually the 1st heat, so the finish line workers don't have to keep jotting down the top finishers from each heat, but that obviously didn't happen in this case. Furthermore, I would not wish to see a kid precluded from scoring simply because of which heat he or she was in. Also, I've seen a few starters suffer mental lapses and put the fastest kids from 1 team in the wrong heat. Lastly, on a few occasions, I might have a kid run the 800 and then, for training purposes, have them come back and run in the 1st heat of the 200 regardless of if it's the fast or slow heat. Sometimes they place in the event from the proper heat, and sometimes they're pack fodder.

I appreciate all the input here, and please keep it coming. I started the thread for a reason, and I'm glad I did: I wanted to learn the right way to handle situations like this one because they will happen again in the future. Just when you think you've finally seen everything...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-18-19, 07:34 PM
Altor Altor is online now
All American
 
Join Date: 06-29-10
Posts: 1,347
Altor is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
In re-reading this situation, given it's a little triangular meet, A & B tie for 3rd and split the points for 3rd & 4th, 5th goes to C. End of story.
This would be my choice too.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-18-19, 07:51 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-03-10
Posts: 634
Newton's Third is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
Furthermore, I would not wish to see a kid precluded from scoring simply because of which heat he or she was in.
I agree with everything you wrote and did the same when I coached since you were asking about rules I was trying to use that logic. Unless it has changed the rules state how many per team, per event and no open or invitational athletes leaving only a jv heat. I attended dual and tri meets in which the host school limited the varsity heats for this reason. If the limit is two per event that would make a varsity heat of 6 and all others jv. If it is 3 per event it could create your stated problem if this is even still a rule.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-18-19, 07:55 PM
madman madman is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 09-27-10
Posts: 1,035
madman is on a distinguished road
Agreed.

Two additional points:
  • My understanding is that you can't have exhibition heats in Ohio so you can't create scoring/non-scoring heats and still be in compliance with the rules.

  • I also think run-offs are used only to determine who advances, and the athletes actually should remain tied for scoring purposes.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-18-19, 07:57 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is online now
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 10-08-10
Posts: 619
Run4Life is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
I agree with everything you wrote and did the same when I coached since you were asking about rules I was trying to use that logic. Unless it has changed the rules state how many per team, per event and no open or invitational athletes leaving only a jv heat. I attended dual and tri meets in which the host school limited the varsity heats for this reason. If the limit is two per event that would make a varsity heat of 6 and all others jv. If it is 3 per event it could create your stated problem if this is even still a rule.
By rule, since a tri meet allows 4 athletes per school, the first 2 sections of 6 should be 2 from each school in section 1, 3 and 4 in section 2.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-18-19, 09:16 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-03-10
Posts: 634
Newton's Third is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Run4Life View Post
By rule, since a tri meet allows 4 athletes per school, the first 2 sections of 6 should be 2 from each school in section 1, 3 and 4 in section 2.
Thanks. With 4 per team it requires two heats and does not help in the situation we are trying to solve.

So the no exhibition rule still exists. I doubt anyone follows this depriving athletes a chance to compete. But I can understand limiting varsity scoring heats to avoid odd hand timing situations and to help assure the fastest are in the same heat.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-18-19, 09:40 PM
storms247 storms247 is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 08-04-16
Posts: 3
storms247 is on a distinguished road
Scoring separate Sections

Runner A - 12.12 hand time from Heat 3
Runner B - 12.15 hand time from Heat 2
Runner C - 12.18 hand time from Heat 3

I score several smaller meets. This situation happens more than you would think.
Runner A ties Runner B as both are 12.2 for 3rd place.
Runner C is placed 5th behind Runner A as this is a head-to-head situation.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-19-19, 10:14 AM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 19,163
Mr. Slippery will become famous soon enough
How about we extend this thread (similar to the ask the official threads they have on some of the other forums)?

Does anyone have any unusual situations that occurred during a meet that are either in need of clarification or for which you can also furnish the correct resolution?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-20-19, 06:52 AM
Altor Altor is online now
All American
 
Join Date: 06-29-10
Posts: 1,347
Altor is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Run4Life View Post
By rule, since a tri meet allows 4 athletes per school, the first 2 sections of 6 should be 2 from each school in section 1, 3 and 4 in section 2.
To clarify, the OHSAA has a modification on the NFHS rule for this. Page 21 of the T&F manual:
In dual or triangular meets, each school is entitled to enter four competitors in individual events, but schools are permitted to enter as many competitors as conditions warrant; in meets involving four (4) or more teams, each school is entitled to enter not more than four competitors in an individual event
In the past couple years, I've been seeing more tri meets when we used to have more quads, and I suspect this is the reason. "as conditions warrant" is rather nebulous and we basically allow unlimited entries in duals and tris.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Georgetown club vs Peebles score? vamp2syd Football 3 09-07-18 04:26 PM
Knowing the score before hand? vamp2syd Football 8 08-22-18 02:48 PM
1/27/18 Ansonia/Mississinniwa Valley score? vamp2syd Boys Basketball 4 02-08-18 05:14 AM
Game Report: Cleveland Rhodes 58 Cleveland John Adams 26 LICKING COUNTY FAN Football 5 09-24-17 06:26 AM
Pirates of the Takedown: Dead Shots Score No Points coachsimpson Wrestling 0 06-02-17 06:36 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz