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  #61  
Old 10-17-18, 05:32 PM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
We have the best healthcare in the world, no one can really argue otherwise. The best hospitals, the best doctors, the best treatments and the best medicines...… your problem is you don't really understand the difference between healthcare and the cost of healthcare.
Access to affordable healthcare is the key.
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  #62  
Old 10-17-18, 05:37 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Access to affordable healthcare is the key.
Sounds great! Who should pay for it?
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  #63  
Old 10-17-18, 11:17 PM
domi domi is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Sounds great! Who should pay for it?
Mexico right after they pay for Donnie's wall.
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  #64  
Old 10-17-18, 11:45 PM
domi domi is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
To be honest, the government should stop taxing businesses. Businesses are there for the benefit of the owners, if businesses stopped paying taxes we could end the special provision for dividends and tax them as regular income for their recipients.
According to SCOTUS businesses are people so why shouldn't they be taxed like people?
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  #65  
Old 10-18-18, 06:07 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by domi View Post
According to SCOTUS businesses are people so why shouldn't they be taxed like people?
Exactly...corporations get to shakedown politicians the least they can do is pay some taxes. The owners, CEO's and Shareholders are doing just fine.
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  #66  
Old 10-18-18, 06:15 AM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Exactly...corporations get to shakedown politicians the least they can do is pay some taxes. The owners, CEO's and Shareholders are doing just fine.
At worst, business and politicians is a quid pro quo. And of course raising taxes on business, is just raising taxes on the populous.
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  #67  
Old 10-18-18, 06:18 AM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Access to affordable healthcare is the key.
Free markets are really the only answer here. Healthcare is expensive for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that insurance pays for way too much. Imagine how expensive car insurance would be, if it paid for everything wrt your car, like oil changes, new tires, brakes, wiper blades.
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  #68  
Old 10-18-18, 06:29 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by Hammerdrill View Post
Free markets are really the only answer here. Healthcare is expensive for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that insurance pays for way too much. Imagine how expensive car insurance would be, if it paid for everything wrt your car, like oil changes, new tires, brakes, wiper blades.
I understand to a degree, but every other country in the first world seems to be able to deliver...it is hard to have free markets without leaving people out...i.e. hospitals do not accept patients who can't pay, etc.
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  #69  
Old 10-18-18, 06:36 AM
boiler boiler is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
I understand to a degree, but every other country in the first world seems to be able to deliver...it is hard to have free markets without leaving people out...i.e. hospitals do not accept patients who can't pay, etc.
Deliver what? A lower quality of life. Do you know that doctors in Canada can only perform a certain number of procedures in a year. Therefore, the waiting time for surgeries are far out. And this delivers how?

Hospital ER's do not turn people away.
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  #70  
Old 10-18-18, 06:40 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by boiler View Post
Deliver what? A lower quality of life. Do you know that doctors in Canada can only perform a certain number of procedures in a year. Therefore, the waiting time for surgeries are far out. And this delivers how?

Hospital ER's do not turn people away.
Correct we do not have free markets now...we have geographic oligopolies, private/company insurance and medicare all mixed in. If we moved to a free market prices would only go down if we blew up the current system. Unhealthy people are unprofitable.

Also Canadian citizens approval rates of their system are much higher than the US. Same with most European countries.
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  #71  
Old 10-18-18, 07:38 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Then have the balls to cut services and or the budget or don't about debt/deficit in the off years. Trumps base loves medicaid/medicare/SS at the individual level.
Medicaid can be eliminated, and at the federal level it should be. Instead of a federal/state cooperative, let the individual states fund it and manage it for their citizenry. If California wants to cover illegal aliens, they can do it, it just means people in Montana aren't subsidizing sanctuary cities.

Social Security and Medicare are promises made by the government that if the people paid for other people's needs their entire working lives the next generation would take care of them. Sorry to break your little heart, but I do feel strong about government stealing from people and then reneging on a promise.

There are literally hundreds of billions of dollars that can be cut from welfare and social justice waste before the government needs to renege on a promise. Eliminate paying union scale for services rendered for the government, let any company compete for the right to do the work and do not waste money on set asides - free market will cut billions from the cost of government. Eliminate the Department of Education, kill Pell Grants and federal student loans and return the control of campuses and schools to local and state jurisdiction. Let them deal with the costs and administration as it was for nearly 200 years. Don't make Texas subsidize poor management in New York. Let the states take a look at how they can save money, if a recent college graduate can teach 2nd grade, why pay someone 3X that to teach 2nd grade just because they have a Masters? It's the same job, it shouldn't have different pay. Eliminate unions for government employees, that would save billions more. Take away the incentive to be a lifetime legislator - no retirement plan, no retiree medical, it's SS only, if someone wants more let them fund it out of their salary into a 401(k) like the rest of us.
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  #72  
Old 10-18-18, 07:53 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domi View Post
According to SCOTUS businesses are people so why shouldn't they be taxed like people?
Businesses are just a construct of people to do commerce, whether it's a family farm, a corner drugstore, or a corporation. The government taxes business because it makes people that don't understand think that it's a cost they don't have to pay. But people pay it every day in the goods and services that they buy.

People get jealous about people that get dividends. A dividend is just a payment to the owners based on their share of the risk of business. But before a dividend is paid, it is taxed as business income. Now capped at 21%, but formerly at 35%. So before a business pays it's owners, the income is taxed at 21% at the federal level, state between 5-10%, there are local taxes as well, so before the company pays a dividend the income can be taxes as high as 35% (50% in 2017). Then the company pays it's shareholders and they pay an additional tax of 15% - so the money is taxed at a rate of about 50%.

Instead of taxing it at the business level (as income) why not tax it when it is paid to the individuals at their normal tax rate? That would simplify our tax code, free up capital for expansion and investment, and encourage investment in business and make America a much better business environment. Leading to more opportunity.
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  #73  
Old 10-18-18, 08:06 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
I understand to a degree, but every other country in the first world seems to be able to deliver...it is hard to have free markets without leaving people out...i.e. hospitals do not accept patients who can't pay, etc.
Hospitals do not turn people away. No one is left out, you want to make healthcare more affordable, let doctors, hospitals, etc. deduct 100% of the cost of indigent care from their books. The government is an unnecessary intrusion in the process, doctors, hospitals, and others would deliver better services and care if left alone.

Every other country in the world has problems with their healthcare. they may have "solved" the cost equation (higher taxes, more taxes, etc. to pay for it), but the "cost" of that solution is less innovation, rationed care (long delays for non-emergency treatments), higher mortality rates, etc.

We have a government-run program here in the US, the VA is a perfect example and it's only for a fraction of the people a national plan would cover. Care is rationed, doctors are overworked and underpaid, facilities are over-priced, and people die waiting to see their doctor or for treatment. Some people would like to see us reward the government for this failure by giving them control over the care of more lives and people? No where else is failure rewarded this way.

Your "approval" rates are very susceptible to manipulation:
Canadians increasingly crossing border for healthcare

Last edited by SWMCinci; 10-18-18 at 08:23 AM.
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  #74  
Old 10-18-18, 08:21 AM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
I understand to a degree, but every other country in the first world seems to be able to deliver...it is hard to have free markets without leaving people out...i.e. hospitals do not accept patients who can't pay, etc.
You don't understand, not at all. Medicare sets reumbursement standards for all insurance companies, which directly determines the cost of those services. Hospitals accept people who cannot or do not pay on a daily basis and deliver the same quality of care.
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  #75  
Old 10-18-18, 08:25 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
You don't understand, not at all. Medicare sets reumbursement standards for all insurance companies, which directly determines the cost of those services. Hospitals accept people who cannot or do not pay on a daily basis and deliver the same quality of care.
I do understand....my point is this is not a free market.
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  #76  
Old 10-18-18, 09:30 AM
goldentornado goldentornado is offline
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Originally Posted by Heavy Hitter 1 View Post
I did do the math based on what you said. You said CBO said the tax bill produced an extra 400 billion growth. Based on what you said, there was a amount that was produced already (pretax cuts). So that means an additional 400 billion was collected above the original amount.
so according to you spending 600 billion to make 400 billion is winning.
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  #77  
Old 10-18-18, 09:35 AM
Qcity Qcity is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Access to affordable healthcare is the key.
Everyone has access to healthcare, and they did before obamaKare too. Unfortunately obamaKare made it completely UNAFFORDABLE.


OWN IT
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  #78  
Old 10-18-18, 09:44 AM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
I do understand....my point is this is not a free market.
No it's not. But you think hospitals accept or decline people based on ability to pay and they don't. I've worked in the military health system, VA, and civilian. The military is single payer and as close to socialized medicine as we have. Access to care is a big problem. It's significantly better on the civilian side. We have a use problem not a delivery problem. People use the system for every little thing and because high prevalence of lawsuits, providers and hospitals are forced to practice defensively and do more than they should.
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  #79  
Old 10-18-18, 10:08 AM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Good to see what is going on in the metals industry in the US. Why is this happening ?
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  #80  
Old 10-18-18, 10:11 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by goldentornado View Post
so according to you spending 600 billion to make 400 billion is winning.
What did we spend 600B on?
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  #81  
Old 10-18-18, 12:04 PM
goldentornado goldentornado is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
What did we spend 600B on?
some people really need to finish jr high
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  #82  
Old 10-18-18, 12:25 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
No it's not. But you think hospitals accept or decline people based on ability to pay and they don't. I've worked in the military health system, VA, and civilian. The military is single payer and as close to socialized medicine as we have. Access to care is a big problem. It's significantly better on the civilian side. We have a use problem not a delivery problem. People use the system for every little thing and because high prevalence of lawsuits, providers and hospitals are forced to practice defensively and do more than they should.
Correct. If people had to pay for the little stuff, they would use it less.
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  #83  
Old 10-18-18, 01:09 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
What did we spend 600B on?
The government allowed people to keep more of their own money. Only in liberal America is letting people keep their own money an expense...….
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  #84  
Old 10-18-18, 02:41 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by goldentornado View Post
some people really need to finish jr high
Be careful what you ask for, those that don't tend to vote for Democrats.
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  #85  
Old 10-19-18, 12:24 AM
goldentornado goldentornado is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Be careful what you ask for, those that don't tend to vote for Democrats.
not in your case
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  #86  
Old 10-19-18, 07:08 AM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Is it moral to constantly raise taxes on the rich without ANY challenges to the spending side. It’s easy. It plays well to the masses. But that does not make it right
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  #87  
Old 10-19-18, 07:49 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is online now
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Sounds great! Who should pay for it?
We will. The only difference between the two party approach is how.
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  #88  
Old 10-19-18, 07:50 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is online now
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Originally Posted by boiler View Post
Deliver what? A lower quality of life. Do you know that doctors in Canada can only perform a certain number of procedures in a year. Therefore, the waiting time for surgeries are far out. And this delivers how?

Hospital ER's do not turn people away.
1st part - Not true

2nd part - Very true - and where does that money come from?
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  #89  
Old 10-19-18, 07:53 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is online now
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Is it moral to constantly raise taxes on the rich without ANY challenges to the spending side. It’s easy. It plays well to the masses. But that does not make it right
Are you "rich"? Define "rich"?

Defending the "rich"? I'm not a "tax" fan by any means but for one party to act superior in the sense is ridiculous. The only difference is how the taxed money is spent.

All the deficit hawks from years ago are really quiet today. There are several posters on here who stick to their guns (no pun intended) regardless the situation and the rest just flop around how Fox and CNN tell em.
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  #90  
Old 10-19-18, 08:09 AM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Are you "rich"? Define "rich"?

Defending the "rich"? I'm not a "tax" fan by any means but for one party to act superior in the sense is ridiculous. The only difference is how the taxed money is spent.

All the deficit hawks from years ago are really quiet today. There are several posters on here who stick to their guns (no pun intended) regardless the situation and the rest just flop around how Fox and CNN tell em.
Not sure if I understand the question
Taxing anyone and wasting the money is wrong. the top taxpayers are few in numbers. constantly asking them to carry the burden is wrong. Take Obamacare. Perfect example. It wasn’t all about healthcare. It was about adding another tax to the rich on top of Obama’s tax increase. So when you talk about Trumps tax cuts some of this is resetting taxes to where they were
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