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  #1171  
Old 10-01-17, 08:42 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Over The Hills View Post
Agreed just wanted to throw it out there.
Someone watching with me had a different opinion lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It can be recovered by the kicking team, but not advanced. Maybe that person watching with you was confused with that portion of the rule.

Last edited by AllSports12; 10-01-17 at 10:52 PM.
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  #1172  
Old 10-05-17, 04:53 PM
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Elks48 Elks48 is offline
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Is it legal for a home team to play music while the opposing team’s offense is on the field in formation, getting ready to hike the ball?
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  #1173  
Old 10-05-17, 07:52 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Elks48 View Post
Is it legal for a home team to play music while the opposing team’s offense is on the field in formation, getting ready to hike the ball?
It's against OHSAA football regulations, however, there is no on-field penalty to be assessed as it's an administrative issue. Once the opportunity arises, the officiating crew is to seek help from game administration to get it halted.

If game administration is unsuccessful or refuses to address the issue, then the crew is to file a game report and it will be addressed, typically by fining the offending party.
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  #1174  
Old 10-07-17, 07:29 AM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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This question involves a personal foul called in last night's New Philly-Zanesville game on a peel back block by a NP defensive lineman after an interception. The Zville offensive lineman he hit did not see it coming, and it was devastating. However, it was a shoulder to the chest and the blocker had his head in front of the player being hit.

What was the element per the rules that qualified this as a personal foul instead of a good football play?
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  #1175  
Old 10-07-17, 07:37 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Sounds like it was a good call. Here is a statement from the NFHS on the new blindside block rule that was passed this year:

Quote:
The committee stated that the blindside block “involves contact by a blocker against an opponent who, because of physical positioning and focus of concentration, is vulnerable to injury. Unless initiated with open hands, it is a foul for excessive and unnecessary contact when the block is forceful and outside of the free-blocking zone.”
https://www.nfhs.org/articles/new-bl...hool-football/
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  #1176  
Old 10-07-17, 07:38 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
This question involves a personal foul called in last night's New Philly-Zanesville game on a peel back block by a NP defensive lineman after an interception. The Zville offensive lineman he hit did not see it coming, and it was devastating. However, it was a shoulder to the chest and the blocker had his head in front of the player being hit.

What was the element per the rules that qualified this as a personal foul instead of a good football play?
This is the new rule regarding "Blindside Blocks".

A blindside block “involves contact by a blocker against an opponent who, because of physical positioning and focus of concentration, is vulnerable to injury. Unless initiated with open hands, it is a foul for excessive and unnecessary contact when the block is forceful and outside of the free-blocking zone.”

What you describe is a textbook BSB and because the contact was forceful and not initiated with open hands, it is a foul.
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  #1177  
Old 10-07-17, 07:41 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Sorry bb9..... your answer hit while I was typing
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  #1178  
Old 10-07-17, 09:35 AM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
This is the new rule regarding "Blindside Blocks".

A blindside block “involves contact by a blocker against an opponent who, because of physical positioning and focus of concentration, is vulnerable to injury. Unless initiated with open hands, it is a foul for excessive and unnecessary contact when the block is forceful and outside of the free-blocking zone.”

What you describe is a textbook BSB and because the contact was forceful and not initiated with open hands, it is a foul.
Yep, by that definition it certainly was. So what some refer to as a "defenseless player" rule was adopted recently? Good idea. I remember a few years ago in a pro game a lineman had his pelvis disarticulated from a hit like that. It's dangerous stuff.

Could you further explain what "open hand" means? Is that basically a shove?
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  #1179  
Old 10-07-17, 10:05 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Sorry bb9..... your answer hit while I was typing
Good thing we both had the same answer!
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  #1180  
Old 10-07-17, 12:16 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
So what some refer to as a "defenseless player" rule was adopted recently?

In 2014 the NFHS first defined a Defenseless Player as....

"a player who, because of his physical position and focus of concentration, is especially vulnerable to injury"

This year, the definition was tweaked to include some specific (but not limited to) examples......

a. A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass

b. A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner

c. The intended receiver of a pass in the action during and immediately following an interception or potential interception

d. A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped

e. A kickoff or punt returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner

f. A player on the ground including a runner who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet-first

g. A player obviously out of the play or not in the immediate vicinity of the runner

h. A player who receives a blindside block with forceful contact not initiated with open hands.......


.......are all defenseless players.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
Could you further explain what "open hand" means? Is that basically a shove?
Yes to the shove.....

In your example, the hit was with the shoulder, which because of the status of the defender, is illegal.
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  #1181  
Old 10-09-17, 07:52 AM
suplex21 suplex21 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
This question involves a personal foul called in last night's New Philly-Zanesville game on a peel back block by a NP defensive lineman after an interception. The Zville offensive lineman he hit did not see it coming, and it was devastating. However, it was a shoulder to the chest and the blocker had his head in front of the player being hit.

What was the element per the rules that qualified this as a personal foul instead of a good football play?
The element of shoulder to chest would make it illegal. Would have to be everything you said plus contact initiated with hands in order for it to be legal.
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  #1182  
Old 10-09-17, 08:02 AM
Wesley Wesley is offline
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Receiver is held by the defense on a pass play and a flag is thrown (it was happening all night). Ball is passed to a different receiver and is caught for a negligible gain.

After a couple-minute conference in the middle of the field, the flag is waved off. The reason given is that the pass was made behind the line of scrimmage. I think what they meant was that the eventual receiver was still behind the LOS, so basically a short pass toward the sideline.

Can somebody supply the applicable reference for this situation?
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  #1183  
Old 10-09-17, 09:03 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley View Post
Receiver is held by the defense on a pass play and a flag is thrown (it was happening all night). Ball is passed to a different receiver and is caught for a negligible gain.

After a couple-minute conference in the middle of the field, the flag is waved off. The reason given is that the pass was made behind the line of scrimmage. I think what they meant was that the eventual receiver was still behind the LOS, so basically a short pass toward the sideline.

Can somebody supplyh the applicable reference for this situation?
The pass being behind (not crossing) the line of scrimmage has no bearing on whether or not you can have a foul for defensive holding.

My guess is that the original flag was for Defensive Pass Interference and was waved off since the ball did not cross the line of scrimmage. If this was the case, then the officials were correct in waving off the flag.
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  #1184  
Old 10-09-17, 11:40 AM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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Maybe it is just me, but there seems to be signals given that do not fit the foul and the PA announcer may call it even something else. The incident above seems to be the one most common. The PA guy will often call it a block in the back, maybe because he has trouble seeing the holding signal clearly. Who knows, it's still football.
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  #1185  
Old 10-09-17, 12:24 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA70PP View Post
Maybe it is just me, but there seems to be signals given that do not fit the foul and the PA announcer may call it even something else. The incident above seems to be the one most common. The PA guy will often call it a block in the back, maybe because he has trouble seeing the holding signal clearly. Who knows, it's still football.
I routinely see the Referee signal for a Block Below the Waist and it is announced as a Chop Block. Two different fouls, with two different signals.

That said, I have seen Referee's signal incorrectly as well.

Many crews will give the clock operator a mini signal chart to pass along to the PA announcer during the pre-game meetings for just this purpose.
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  #1186  
Old 10-09-17, 12:41 PM
InsideTheArmor InsideTheArmor is offline
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Question for the refs here:

I heard there was a rule change this year regarding onside kicks. Something about how the ball is not allowed to bounce up into the air without hitting the ground multiple times beforehand.

Could anyone clear this up for me?
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  #1187  
Old 10-09-17, 01:30 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideTheArmor View Post
Question for the refs here:

I heard there was a rule change this year regarding onside kicks. Something about how the ball is not allowed to bounce up into the air without hitting the ground multiple times beforehand.

Could anyone clear this up for me?
It is illegal to drive the ball immediately into the ground causing the ball to pop up and look as if it has been kicked directly into the air. The ball becomes dead immediately.

The rule change in no way outlaws on-side kicks.
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  #1188  
Old 10-09-17, 02:02 PM
Wesley Wesley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The pass being behind (not crossing) the line of scrimmage has no bearing on whether or not you can have a foul for defensive holding.

My guess is that the original flag was for Defensive Pass Interference and was waved off since the ball did not cross the line of scrimmage. If this was the case, then the officials were correct in waving off the flag.
No, the official explicitly called defensive holding and it was very obvious to everyone in the stands. But then he also explicitly said that the foul was not a foul since the ball was thrown behind the LOS. Keep in mind that the flag was thrown away from the eventual location of the pass reception.

The official also had a microphone, so we were all able to hear the foul call and the explanation for waving it off.
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  #1189  
Old 10-09-17, 03:22 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley View Post
No, the official explicitly called defensive holding and it was very obvious to everyone in the stands. But then he also explicitly said that the foul was not a foul since the ball was thrown behind the LOS. Keep in mind that the flag was thrown away from the eventual location of the pass reception.

The official also had a microphone, so we were all able to hear the foul call and the explanation for waving it off.
If that's what happened, then the crew erred in their decision or erred in explaining their decision.

As far as calling a hold away from the play. An experienced crew will know when to throw the flag and when to keep it in their pocket.
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  #1190  
Old 10-13-17, 08:55 PM
sshero sshero is offline
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Question....

Offense fumbles the ball...can the defense pick up the loose ball and advance it?

If yes, would the same apply in overtime?
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  #1191  
Old 10-13-17, 09:20 PM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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What is the procedure to handle an inadvertent whistle?
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  #1192  
Old 10-13-17, 09:32 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
What is the procedure to handle an inadvertent whistle?
On a typical play, the offense has the choice to replay the down or take the result of the play at the point the whistle was blown.

That could change depending on different scenarios such as a change if possession, a kick, etc.
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  #1193  
Old 10-14-17, 07:13 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sshero View Post
Question....

Offense fumbles the ball...can the defense pick up the loose ball and advance
it?
Yes, the ball remains live.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sshero View Post
If yes, would the same apply in overtime?
No, as soon as the Defense secures possession of the ball the play is dead.
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  #1194  
Old 10-14-17, 07:37 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
What is the procedure to handle an inadvertent whistle?
First, the ball becomes dead immediately on any IW.

After that..... Oh Boy, let the fun begin.......

- If the whistle is blown during a legal forward pass, the snap (while in flight), or during a legal kick, then the down is to be replayed. Should a penalty for a foul that occurs during this play be accepted, then the penalty enforcement take precedence.

- If the whistle is blown following a fumble, backward pass, illegal forward pass, or an illegal kick, the team last in possession may choose to take the ball at the spot where they lost possession of the ball or they may elect to replay the down. As in above, if a foul occurs during this play and the penalty is accepted, that takes precedence over the IW.

- If the whistle is blown while the ball is in the possession of a player, his team may elect to take the result of the play at the dead ball spot (where it was when the whistle was blown) or replay the down. Again, should a foul occur during this down and the penalty is accepted, then the enforcement takes precedence over the IW.

Clear as mud, eh?


As a side note....... the guilty party of the IW is buying afterwards !!


Bugsy....... did an IW occur in a game you saw?

Last edited by AllSports12; 10-14-17 at 07:50 AM.
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  #1195  
Old 10-14-17, 08:41 AM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
First, the ball becomes dead immediately on any IW.

After that..... Oh Boy, let the fun begin.......

- If the whistle is blown during a legal forward pass, the snap (while in flight), or during a legal kick, then the down is to be replayed. Should a penalty for a foul that occurs during this play be accepted, then the penalty enforcement take precedence.

- If the whistle is blown following a fumble, backward pass, illegal forward pass, or an illegal kick, the team last in possession may choose to take the ball at the spot where they lost possession of the ball or they may elect to replay the down. As in above, if a foul occurs during this play and the penalty is accepted, that takes precedence over the IW.

- If the whistle is blown while the ball is in the possession of a player, his team may elect to take the result of the play at the dead ball spot (where it was when the whistle was blown) or replay the down. Again, should a foul occur during this down and the penalty is accepted, then the enforcement takes precedence over the IW.

Clear as mud, eh?


As a side note....... the guilty party of the IW is buying afterwards !!


Bugsy....... did an IW occur in a game you saw?

Yes. A player was carrying the ball running forward. It was close to whether or not he was down and he lost the ball (Had gained about 4 yards at the time).

The defense recovered and was celebrating. The referee pointed that it was the Defenses ball. Then a conference occurred among officials. They then explained a whistle was blown when it appeared the runner was down to the official. Therefore the fumble didn't happen.

Rather than just set the ball where the runner was ruled to have been down, they set the ball at the original line of scrimmage and play the down over because of what they said was an inadvertent whistle.
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  #1196  
Old 10-14-17, 08:49 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
Yes. A player was carrying the ball running forward. It was close to whether or not he was down and he lost the ball (Had gained about 4 yards at the time).

The defense recovered and was celebrating. The referee pointed that it was the Defenses ball. Then a conference occurred among officials. They then explained a whistle was blown when it appeared the runner was down to the official. Therefore the fumble didn't happen.

Rather than just set the ball where the runner was ruled to have been down, they set the ball at the original line of scrimmage and play the down over because of what they said was an inadvertent whistle.
In this case, the Offense has two options... (hopefully, they were given both)

Take the results of the play at the dead ball spot.
Replay the down.
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  #1197  
Old 10-15-17, 09:27 AM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
In this case, the Offense has two options... (hopefully, they were given both)

Take the results of the play at the dead ball spot.
Replay the down.
When the referee signaled the defense had the ball, the chains were moved. Both teams had switched personal and were ready to go. Then the referees got together and reversed the call. This seemed really late to do so.

When they gave the ball back, they misplaced the original line of scrimmage by several yards and just replayed to down. They called it a "Do-Over."
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  #1198  
Old 10-15-17, 10:04 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
When the referee signaled the defense had the ball, the chains were moved. Both teams had switched personal and were ready to go. Then the referees got together and reversed the call. This seemed really late to do so.
Not unusual if the R didn't hear the whistle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
When they gave the ball back, they misplaced the original line of scrimmage by several yards and just replayed to down. They called it a "Do-Over."
Again, without being there, seeing a video of the whole sequence, and/or talking to the crew, this is all truly speculation. We aren't dong that here......

The rule provides for two options as discussed prior. Replaying the down is one of them.
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  #1199  
Old 10-15-17, 12:44 PM
Zunardo Zunardo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I routinely see the Referee signal for a Block Below the Waist and it is announced as a Chop Block. Two different fouls, with two different signals.

That said, I have seen Referee's signal incorrectly as well.

Many crews will give the clock operator a mini signal chart to pass along to the PA announcer during the pre-game meetings for just this purpose.
I've been announcing for over 20 years, and I always keep a large copy of the signals handy, just in case - for just such an occasion. My AD gave me my first copy on card stock (thank you!) , and it's always on a clipboard at my table. No pressbox should be without one.

Not sure how one can confuse holding with block in the back - to me, they're easily distinguishable.

I can see the confusion between chop block and block below the waist signals , but I can remember it easier because the chop block signal is a chopping motion, while below the waist signal is "reaching too low".
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  #1200  
Old 10-15-17, 04:23 PM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Not unusual if the R didn't hear the whistle.



Again, without being there, seeing a video of the whole sequence, and/or talking to the crew, this is all truly speculation. We aren't dong that here......

The rule provides for two options as discussed prior. Replaying the down is one of them.
Those were the exact words to the Head Coach. He used the words "Do over".
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