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  #1  
Old 04-21-17, 10:39 AM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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Comprehensive Athletic Discussion

Anyway, here's my overview of the "major sports" with some brief commentary on strengths, weaknesses, and solutions:

Wrestling, Volleyball, Hockey- all in great shape, do not change anything.

Football:

Strengths: Committed Feeder system, plenty of $, tradition
Weakness: No speed, limited athletes
Solution: attempting to attract more non-feeders through various marketing programs. Focus on attracting kids who are playing for nearby Club teams

Basketball:

Strengths: Coaching continuity. You have to feel confident about Austing coaching the program

Weakness: Outdated style of play, limited athletes in Feeder system, not enough "specialized" bball players.

Solution: Similar to football. Focus on attracting more non feeders. Change up Offense to focus on more Quick Hitters, having kids create their own shot instead of passing the ball around the court for a full minute.

Baseball:

Strengths: Tradition of success, large pool of kids to select from.

Weakness: Philosophy of coaching (aka Small Ball), perception of favoritism

Solution: ?


Elder athletics haven't been good enough over the last 10 years, and there are fans out there (not necessarily on here) that love to make excuses about how everyone else cheats, but Elder does it the "right way." There's some legitimacy to that, but a lot of it is also BS. I do have some first hand knowledge of things being done to right the ship, whether or not it works out remains to be seen. I'm glad that some a top the athletic program picked up on what was going on, but I wish it didn't take so long.

Last edited by EHS 2001; 04-21-17 at 11:35 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-21-17, 10:48 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Good move...I would add as a negative the over-arching perception that E doesn't want to become more open to accepting and developing non-feeder kids. Do some out-of-the-box things as pilot programs if you're not sure they will work. They need some new and creative ideas rather than just re-creating the "Elder way" that they've known for so long.
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Old 04-21-17, 10:53 AM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Good move...I would add as a negative the over-arching perception that E doesn't want to become more open to accepting and developing non-feeder kids.
Unfortunately, perception is reality. It's abundantly clear to anyone who follows the school, there's nothing taboo about bringing in kids from non-feeders. This current freshman class had 15 kids alone from the OH feeder system. However, they need to market themselves more aggressively to these kids, so once they get on campus, they realize Elder's not exclusionary. Some of Elder's best marketers have been feeder kids who play club sports with non feeder kids. Just getting a kid on Elder's campus for a shadow visit is huge.
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Old 04-21-17, 10:59 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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And I know you will probably not agree with this, but also getting the coaches to accept these non-feeder kids as potential contributors over kids they know from family and friend connections. That pull is strong. It's one thing to get them there...another for them to contribute.

Also, as part of the culture change, not every kid has to be the Pete Rose, Ryan Freel, run through a wall at all costs to get playing time. There are plenty of kids that can contribute with their skill that don't have that mentality. It's great to have those guys, but they seem to be the poster children for the "Elder way". That mentality, I think, is fading fast with today's athlete.
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Old 04-21-17, 11:05 AM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And I know you will probably not agree with this, but also getting the coaches to accept these non-feeder kids as potential contributors over kids they know from family and friend connections. That pull is strong. It's one thing to get them there...another for them to contribute.
I don't agree bc some of their best players in the big 3 sports were non feeders. If you can ball, you're going to play. The politics exist, but they're immaterial in a team's performance.
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  #6  
Old 04-21-17, 11:08 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I don't agree bc some of their best players in the big 3 sports were non feeders. If you can ball, you're going to play. The politics exist, but they're immaterial in a team's performance.
The baseball guys would whole-heartedly disagree. Politics and system disagreements have apparently weeded out their best players.
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Old 04-21-17, 11:24 AM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
The baseball guys would whole-heartedly disagree. Politics and system disagreements have apparently weeded out their best players.
Their 2 best players are Service and Powell, both from non feeders. And from what ppl are saying about baseball, it's the Feeder kids who got upset and quit.
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  #8  
Old 04-21-17, 11:30 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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There have been multiple people who have posted that the baseball program is in shambles because of politics and an old school approach. They likely aren't just coming in here and making things up.

Based on results, their argument has merit. It would be different if they were 12-1. They're not. There is evidence (results and multiple personal accounts) to back up their claims. You have to at least give that some credence.
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Old 04-21-17, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
There have been multiple people who have posted that the baseball program is in shambles because of politics and an old school approach. They likely aren't just coming in here and making things up.

Based on results, their argument has merit. It would be different if they were 12-1. They're not. There is evidence (results and multiple personal accounts) to back up their claims. You have to at least give that some credence.
Those are two very difft issues. The only poster who said there was politics was the guy with #politics as his handle. I believe the struggle has more to do with the approach and kids quitting baseball midway through their HS career.
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  #10  
Old 04-21-17, 12:48 PM
Panthers0100 Panthers0100 is offline
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Look no further than signing days to get a feel for how Elder is doing. If I had a kid interested in some college athletics Elder is the last place I would send them. 2 of the last 3 three years no one signed in Feb. from Elder football. This is also not about just signing D1 scholarships but also D2 and D3. Elder as a whole does nothing to help kids get to the next level. In football Ramsey notoriously does NOTHING to help kids. In some instances Ramsey is a negative as he doesn't have great college relationships. In baseball most of the kids quit so there isn't much left and in basketball it is the same as football the coaches don't feel that it is part of their responsibility to help the kids get into good college systems. Oak Hills, LaSalle, and X have way more kids sign with colleges than Elder. Completely inexcusable and behind the times.
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  #11  
Old 04-21-17, 12:57 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I've heard this as well, but it doesn't seem to fit the personalities of these coaches. People rave about Schoenfeld as a person...why wouldn't he do what he could to help these kids? His players seem to always have his back - why would they do this if they feel he's not looking out for their best interests? Seems like Ramsey would also be willing to help a kid out with getting him looks at decent programs. Neither of them seem like d*cks, so I have a hard time believing they are ignoring kids trying to get to the next level.

Perhaps there's more to it than I know (and I admit I don't know much about the recruiting aspect). Is it a resource issue (like they don't have the capability to produce highlight clips and things like that?). I guess I just need some examples of what other coaches do that Elder coaches don't do.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've heard this alot over the years without alot of detail behind it.

Last edited by trey2k; 04-21-17 at 01:09 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-21-17, 01:13 PM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I've heard this as well, but it doesn't seem to fit the personalities of these coaches. People rave about Schoenfeld as a person...why wouldn't he do what he could to help these kids? His players seem to always have his back - why would they do this if they feel he's not looking out for their best interests? Seems like Ramsey would also be willing to help a kid out with getting him looks at decent programs. Neither of them seem like d*cks, so I have a hard time believing they are ignoring kids trying to get to the next level.

Perhaps there's more to it than I know (and I admit I don't know much about the recruiting aspect). Is it a resource issue (like they don't have the capability to produce highlight clips and things like that?). I guess I just need some examples of what other coaches do that Elder coaches don't do.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've heard this alot over the years without alot of detail behind it.
I've heard Football needs to do more in terms of helping kids land offers. Bball just hasn't had many kids who are good enough to play at the next level.
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  #13  
Old 04-21-17, 01:15 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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But what does that mean? More video? More hosting of college coaches? More marketing of players? All of the above? How do we know they don't do this already? What does Moeller, Oak Hills, and LaSalle do that Elder doesn't?

Everyone always says "they need to do more" - but what aren't they doing?

Last edited by trey2k; 04-21-17 at 01:33 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-21-17, 01:34 PM
EHS 2001 EHS 2001 is offline
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I think (some) other schools' signing ceremonies include kids who are walk-ons whereas I'm pretty sure everyone that Elder has a signing ceremony for are signing for scholarships.
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Old 04-21-17, 01:35 PM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
But what does that mean? More video? More hosting of college coaches? More marketing of players. How do we know they don't do this already?

Everyone always says "they need to do more" - but what aren't they doing?
It wasn't elaborated. However, this was before Hudl and Twitter were popular. Anyone can get their film out to colleges now. Also, in defense of the staff, I know they've helped raise $ for Belser and Daily to play in those HS All Star games, which helped them get noticed.

It's pretty easy to explain why 2/3 football classes didn't have a signee, the class of '15 was extremely weak in talent, class of '17 was better, but still not many kids with enough talent to play at the next level. I do wonder why Dawson and Lyons haven't officially landed somewhere.
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Old 04-21-17, 01:41 PM
Panthers0100 Panthers0100 is offline
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They literally do nothing other than when you call them. I have heard this from several parents who have had kids in the program in the past 3 years. I am not talking about the top D1 athletes. I am talking about the next level down. Tommy K. doesn't need any help. A kid that could possible get into the MAC or below is who I am talking about including D2 and D3. Sometimes these high school kids can use sports to get them into a better college than they could qualify for with just academics. The big 3 sports at Elder are all in the same old fashioned mode with no new ideas or initiatives. Elders incoming freshman class is proof of the facts that Elder is indeed struggling with no new ideas and a woeful marketing program led by someone that doesn't understand Elder. Elder is losing the battle of ideas big time.
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  #17  
Old 04-21-17, 01:53 PM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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Originally Posted by EHS 2001 View Post
I think (some) other schools' signing ceremonies include kids who are walk-ons whereas I'm pretty sure everyone that Elder has a signing ceremony for are signing for scholarships.
I thought the kids who were Pfd walk ons were part of the ceremony? Either way, everyone is making this far more complicated than it really is. LS and Moe have had talent, Elder hasn't. Elder got complacent and expected kids to come to them and it doesn't work that way anymore. It's also no coincidence "role" players playing along side the Major D1 prospects tend to get lower level offers more often.
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  #18  
Old 04-21-17, 01:53 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by EHS 2001 View Post
I think (some) other schools' signing ceremonies include kids who are walk-ons whereas I'm pretty sure everyone that Elder has a signing ceremony for are signing for scholarships.
Yeah, this must be the reason why. SMH.

Another irrational rationalization instead of just admitting the truth. Rationalize it away. Deflect from the obvious reasons.

There's defending Elder...and then there's this delusion.
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  #19  
Old 04-21-17, 01:55 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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They literally do nothing other than when you call them. I have heard this from several parents who have had kids in the program in the past 3 years. I am not talking about the top D1 athletes. I am talking about the next level down. Tommy K. doesn't need any help. A kid that could possible get into the MAC or below is who I am talking about including D2 and D3. Sometimes these high school kids can use sports to get them into a better college than they could qualify for with just academics. The big 3 sports at Elder are all in the same old fashioned mode with no new ideas or initiatives. Elders incoming freshman class is proof of the facts that Elder is indeed struggling with no new ideas and a woeful marketing program led by someone that doesn't understand Elder. Elder is losing the battle of ideas big time.
The Hofmeyer basketball kid comes to mind. I was very surprised he got little interest. He's not a D1 kid, but there's no reason he didn't have multiple D2 or D3 offers.

In that same light, the Hall football kid seems should have had more options too.
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Old 04-21-17, 01:57 PM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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They literally do nothing other than when you call them. I have heard this from several parents who have had kids in the program in the past 3 years. I am not talking about the top D1 athletes. I am talking about the next level down. Tommy K. doesn't need any help. A kid that could possible get into the MAC or below is who I am talking about including D2 and D3. Sometimes these high school kids can use sports to get them into a better college than they could qualify for with just academics. The big 3 sports at Elder are all in the same old fashioned mode with no new ideas or initiatives. Elders incoming freshman class is proof of the facts that Elder is indeed struggling with no new ideas and a woeful marketing program led by someone that doesn't understand Elder. Elder is losing the battle of ideas big time.
That might be true for the people you know, but it's common knowledge they helped Belser and Daily get noticed. And I can't speak to the other big 3, but I know for a fact football is working on new ideas & initiatives. I do agree, the Marketing for the school itself hasn't been satisfactory. The low Frosh enrollment figure is inexcusable, but that's on Ruffing and marketing, not the Athletic Dept.
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Old 04-21-17, 01:59 PM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
The Hofmeyer basketball kid comes to mind. I was very surprised he got little interest. He's not a D1 kid, but there's no reason he didn't have multiple D2 or D3 offers.

In that same light, the Hall football kid seems should have had more options too.
Hoffmeyer didn't have the size to play D2, he was only 6-0. I believe he was also deciding on whether or not to play baseball at the next level as well. Hall had MAC offers, started at ISU, and I believe now is trying to walk on at UC.
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Old 04-21-17, 02:08 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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OK then...D3. He should have had more options than just MSJ.
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  #23  
Old 04-21-17, 02:19 PM
Patchwork Patchwork is offline
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OK then...D3. He should have had more options than just MSJ.
There were a number of other coaches outside of elder that helped Hoffmeyer get offers which is the necessary evil of this conversation. Elder doesn't have the infulstructure to help our kids. Accountability isn't part of what they have. Frankly everyone should be on notice until drastic changes are made.
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Old 04-21-17, 02:31 PM
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Patchwork saying this definitely adds credence to some of these complaints. However, nothing will change by just b1tching on Yappi. Someone, other than me, is going to have to confront the people in charge directly.
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Old 04-21-17, 02:35 PM
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Elder doesn't have the infulstructure to help our kids. Accountability isn't part of what they have..
I can see the infrastructure piece as meaning they don't have enough people on staff to help in these regards...but I'm curious what you mean by the accountability piece? Is that along the same lines?
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Old 04-21-17, 02:57 PM
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I can see the infrastructure piece as meaning they don't have enough people on staff to help in these regards...but I'm curious what you mean by the accountability piece? Is that along the same lines?
Audit schools in our league and even oak hills in sports. Over the last 3 years compare how many kids they advanced in sports versus what we have. It's numbing to me. Our coaches need to take a major role in getting our kids recruited and there is no accountability for it. How can that be? If you agree or not, our enrollment has been affected by the lack of placement in college athletics in some respects. The numbers add up against elder.
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Old 04-21-17, 03:04 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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It certainly surprises me that our coaches aren't more hands on with that. Discouraging actually.
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Old 04-21-17, 07:43 PM
Visitation_Football Visitation_Football is offline
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Originally Posted by Panthers0100 View Post
They literally do nothing other than when you call them. I have heard this from several parents who have had kids in the program in the past 3 years. I am not talking about the top D1 athletes. I am talking about the next level down. Tommy K. doesn't need any help. A kid that could possible get into the MAC or below is who I am talking about including D2 and D3. Sometimes these high school kids can use sports to get them into a better college than they could qualify for with just academics. The big 3 sports at Elder are all in the same old fashioned mode with no new ideas or initiatives. Elders incoming freshman class is proof of the facts that Elder is indeed struggling with no new ideas and a woeful marketing program led by someone that doesn't understand Elder. Elder is losing the battle of ideas big time.
I could not have said it better. A huge negative perception has developed and rightfully so because of this. The numbers don't lie. Either Elder's staffs have poor contacts in the coaching ranks or they just don't pull any weight to help kids get scholarships. I know several high end athletes whose families have chosen St X and LaSalle over Elder for this very reason.

Last edited by Visitation_Football; 04-21-17 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 04-22-17, 08:58 AM
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The big 3 sports at Elder are all in the same old fashioned mode with no new ideas or initiatives. .
Was the admin in denial about this? Was the assumption that every westside Johnny would still come to Elder like they did back in the day when everyone that went to the school lived in the neighborhood (Price Hill, Covedale, Delhi, Dent).

They had to know that the migration further west for most younger families had to have an impact on enrollment eventually, and that they'd have to work harder to get some of those kids. They've had to realize that the athletes competing against Elder haven't been like the athletes they saw in the early 2000's. It's obvious the level of talent has drastically increased based on the aggressive marketing and recruiting these others schools have done. Add to that the changing nature of the competitiveness of high school sports, the rising cost of tuition, and how parents are most definitely looking at other options, especially when they are offered more money to go there. Westside Johnny going to Elder isn't a slam dunk anymore. They have to start to admit that....it can't be the same Elder...it has to evolve.

This decline has been noticeable and it's had momentum for at least 5 years (arguably more). I've said in the past that the volleyball and wrestling cultures seem to be much more open, diverse, and accepting of many kids that could help them improve as a program. I think that helps create a more successful and productive environment for winning. They seem to be doing things differently than the Big 3, before they get to Elder, and when they get to Elder, but I'm guessing the Big 3 think "no one cares about those sports", but frankly they are the only programs providing positive marketing and recruiting stories. There's nothing the Big 3 are doing to attract kids to play at Elder. In fact, a lot of the negative perceptions around how they operate are having the opposite affect. There seems to be a lot of ill will towards basketball and baseball by the lack of transparency, politics, old school mentality, and by the way they cut a lot of kids out of the picture way too early in their late grade school careers. They bank on the best players as 7th graders and basically cut all other options out of the process.

And I don't know what to say about the perception of coaches not doing everything they can to help ALL KIDS capable of playing in college to get college notice. For all of the expectations on Elder kids to play the "Elder way" and give their hearts and souls to the program and their teammates, they deserve the same from the coaches in this regard. If this is true, this may be the biggest disappointment of all.

There is also an obvious decline in passion for the school from the students. It's not the Elder of old...and as someone else pointed out above, it requires drastic changes in thought and ideas to get there. The status quo WILL turn this institution into Roger Bacon eventually, especially with it sitting in an area of the city where NO ONE is looking to move to.

Last edited by trey2k; 04-22-17 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 04-22-17, 01:25 PM
Visitation_Football Visitation_Football is offline
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Was the admin in denial about this? Was the assumption that every westside Johnny would still come to Elder like they did back in the day when everyone that went to the school lived in the neighborhood (Price Hill, Covedale, Delhi, Dent).

They had to know that the migration further west for most younger families had to have an impact on enrollment eventually, and that they'd have to work harder to get some of those kids. They've had to realize that the athletes competing against Elder haven't been like the athletes they saw in the early 2000's. It's obvious the level of talent has drastically increased based on the aggressive marketing and recruiting these others schools have done. Add to that the changing nature of the competitiveness of high school sports, the rising cost of tuition, and how parents are most definitely looking at other options, especially when they are offered more money to go there. Westside Johnny going to Elder isn't a slam dunk anymore. They have to start to admit that....it can't be the same Elder...it has to evolve.

This decline has been noticeable and it's had momentum for at least 5 years (arguably more). I've said in the past that the volleyball and wrestling cultures seem to be much more open, diverse, and accepting of many kids that could help them improve as a program. I think that helps create a more successful and productive environment for winning. They seem to be doing things differently than the Big 3, before they get to Elder, and when they get to Elder, but I'm guessing the Big 3 think "no one cares about those sports", but frankly they are the only programs providing positive marketing and recruiting stories. There's nothing the Big 3 are doing to attract kids to play at Elder. In fact, a lot of the negative perceptions around how they operate are having the opposite affect. There seems to be a lot of ill will towards basketball and baseball by the lack of transparency, politics, old school mentality, and by the way they cut a lot of kids out of the picture way too early in their late grade school careers. They bank on the best players as 7th graders and basically cut all other options out of the process.

And I don't know what to say about the perception of coaches not doing everything they can to help ALL KIDS capable of playing in college to get college notice. For all of the expectations on Elder kids to play the "Elder way" and give their hearts and souls to the program and their teammates, they deserve the same from the coaches in this regard. If this is true, this may be the biggest disappointment of all.

There is also an obvious decline in passion for the school from the students. It's not the Elder of old...and as someone else pointed out above, it requires drastic changes in thought and ideas to get there. The status quo WILL turn this institution into Roger Bacon eventually, especially with it sitting in an area of the city where NO ONE is looking to move to.
I think the answer is simple. The entire admin has been asleep at the wheel for a long time. Their marketing is horrible compared to their competition. You could see it coming that at some point the bottom was going to fall out enrollment wise and now it's happening with next years incoming class.
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