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  #631  
Old 01-10-18, 10:17 AM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Hard pressed? Right off the top of my head:
Vada Pinson
Frank McCormick
Ernie Lombardi
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  #632  
Old 01-10-18, 12:02 PM
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You donít retire the number of your 3rd best second baseman in franchise history who was barely an all-star and never finished had a top-10 mvp finish.
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  #633  
Old 01-10-18, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Pretty difficult to break that list of players. But as I said, at least debatable. Phillips is largely known as the franchises 3rd best 2nd baseman of all time, behind Joe Morgan and some guy named Bid McPhee, who played in the late 1800's. So I'm going to move Phillips past him simply because baseball was so much different 100+ years ago. I'll admit I didn't see Joe Morgan play everyday, I did see him play some. Joe was certainly and all-star more for his bat than his glove. That's not a knock on him defensively, because he was such a great offensive player in a time when 2nd basemen simply did not hit. Actually, if Phillips played for most other franchises, his offensive numbers would put him in the top spot for most franchises. I know that makes some of you cringe, but think about guys like Larry Bowa and Frank White, two long time all star 2nd basemen with their respective franchises, Phillies and Royals. Phillips numbers far surpass them.
But the real reason Phillips can also be considered is that I don't know that you can name another 2nd baseman in the last 20 years who has been better defensively than BP. Routinely in the top 10 plays on a nightly basis, Phillips has made 106 errors in 16 major league seasons. And incredible number.

Lastly, you don't tend to retire numbers solely based on stats. Phillips seemingly did anything the club asked, including batting in nearly every spot in the batting order, many times batting in the 3 or 4 hole, or even lead off, places where he probably didn't belong, yet he produced in most cases. He's also PLAYED, he's rarely in 16 years, missed any long stretches, and played hurt for at least parts of two seasons that I can specifically recall. He had a thumb issue years back that really hurt his batting, but he worked through it and his numbers suffered.

Finally, to close my case, I'm sure many of you will bring up the CTrent rant, some of his other surlyness, and those are all valid. But I think you'll also be hard pressed to name any other Reds in history that don't have a number retired who has the criteria that BP does. I rest my case.
Bowa (a shortstop btw) and White played in a far different era than Phillips when light hitting middle infielders were the norm.
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  #634  
Old 01-10-18, 01:02 PM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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You don't make decisions for retiring a jersey based on supposed surliness with the press or playing with thumb injuries. Those are the types of things that make you personally like or dislike a player.

If a player is not one of the best all-time, you don't even discuss retiring a jersey number. BP was never in the discussion for an MVP, rarely an all-star, never a champion. I really enjoyed watching Brandon. He has a shot at the Reds Hall of Fame, but no shot at the MLB HOF, and zero discussion about retiring his jersey. Silly.
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  #635  
Old 01-10-18, 02:42 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
Bowa (a shortstop btw) and White played in a far different era than Phillips when light hitting middle infielders were the norm.
So that affects the stats a guy puts up? If that's the case then there'll never be another starting pitcher have a number retired by the Reds.

Oh and that's right, Bowa was a shortstop, who was his 2nd base teammate? Steve Geltz? Also thought about Tommy Herr, another pretty good 2nd baseman from the 80's / 90's. Phillips numbers are alot better than his. Herr hit 28 home runs in his 13 year career! Bowa hit 15 homers in 16 years!!
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  #636  
Old 01-10-18, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
So that affects the stats a guy puts up? If that's the case then there'll never be another starting pitcher have a number retired by the Reds.

Oh and that's right, Bowa was a shortstop, who was his 2nd base teammate? Steve Geltz? Also thought about Tommy Herr, another pretty good 2nd baseman from the 80's / 90's. Phillips numbers are alot better than his. Herr hit 28 home runs in his 13 year career! Bowa hit 15 homers in 16 years!!
Bowa’s number isn’t even retired by the Phillies, so wgaf if Phillips hit more homeruns than him? Same with Herr. I’m not sure what you are blathering about in the first paragraph.

Anyway, Phillips was a good player, he was never a great player. You retire great players’ numbers, not merely good ones.
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  #637  
Old 01-10-18, 08:26 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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I don't think #4 should be retired.

Are there any Reds who should have their number retired that isn't retired?
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  #638  
Old 01-10-18, 09:34 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is online now
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A number probably doesn't deserve to be retired unless they meet one of the following criteria:
-Make the Hall of Fame, only the team the player goes in with
-Win World Series MVP
-Win an MVP or multiple MVPs

The next Red to get their number retired is likely Votto even though I could see why people would argue against it since he's never been on a team that's won a playoff series and he only has the one MVP.
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  #639  
Old 01-11-18, 08:42 AM
TroyTrojan05 TroyTrojan05 is offline
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I don't think Phillips jersey should be retired but I don't think its crazy to think of the possibility. Some of you might be surprised if you like at his prime year stats and then compare them to Larkin. Larkin just won. Phillips was the captain and one of the best defensive players in the game. Not to mention, a fan favorite.
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  #640  
Old 01-11-18, 09:39 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
A number probably doesn't deserve to be retired unless they meet one of the following criteria:
-Make the Hall of Fame, only the team the player goes in with
-Win World Series MVP
-Win an MVP or multiple MVPs

The next Red to get their number retired is likely Votto even though I could see why people would argue against it since he's never been on a team that's won a playoff series and he only has the one MVP.
I respectfully disagree with your criteria. Baseball is the one team sport that one single individual has the least amount of control over. A batter only has 4-5 at bats a game to make an impact on that game, and limited ability to contribute to team success. Heck a team can even intentionally walk a batter when the key situations arise.

I can't depict a better example than our current player, Joey Votto. He's going to go down as the best offensive player in team history, bar none. We certainly love Rose, Morgan, Bench, Perez, etc. But you take any of those guys and put them individually on teams and do they carry teams to world series titles?

Can you penalize a great offensive baseball player because the team doesn't have great pitching, which is more of the barometer of success in baseball?

We'll probably find out soon on this, as more than likely, Votto's career will not include a world series title. Then how will you view him?
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  #641  
Old 01-11-18, 03:53 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Career WAR of Reds players (players only, not Hutch or Sparky) whose jerseys have been retired:

Johnny Bench -- 75.0
Joe Morgan -- 100.3
Barry Larkin -- 70.2
Dave Concepcion -- 39.9
Pete Rose 79.1
Big Klu -- 32.3
Frank Robinson -- 107.2
Tony Perez -- 53.9


Brandon Phillips -- 30.9

WAR is such an all encompassing stat of a player's value that only 14Red will dispute that -- despite not measuring up to ANY of the Reds whose numbers are on display at GAPB -- BP is still worthy of being included amongst them.

In fact, he has been unable to make ANY valid arguments that BP should be included in this group. Sorry, 14Red, but beating out Larry Bowa doesn't count.
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  #642  
Old 01-11-18, 04:15 PM
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Brandon Phillips is definitely one of the 2 or 3 all-time Reds that I would invite to my house to watch a ballgame and have some beverages. BP, Frazier, and Bench. That would be fun. But can't retire #4.
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  #643  
Old 01-12-18, 08:33 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
Career WAR of Reds players (players only, not Hutch or Sparky) whose jerseys have been retired:

Johnny Bench -- 75.0
Joe Morgan -- 100.3
Barry Larkin -- 70.2
Dave Concepcion -- 39.9
Pete Rose 79.1
Big Klu -- 32.3
Frank Robinson -- 107.2
Tony Perez -- 53.9


Brandon Phillips -- 30.9

WAR is such an all encompassing stat of a player's value that only 14Red will dispute that -- despite not measuring up to ANY of the Reds whose numbers are on display at GAPB -- BP is still worthy of being included amongst them.

In fact, he has been unable to make ANY valid arguments that BP should be included in this group. Sorry, 14Red, but beating out Larry Bowa doesn't count.
Of those listed Big Klu has a WAR of 1.4 better than BP. Why is his retired? Admittedly he is before my time.
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  #644  
Old 01-12-18, 08:56 AM
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He was way before my time as well and probably overrated as a player, but he had about 4 monster years in the mid-50s and was a very beloved player much like Nuxhall. Plus he was notorious for showing off those guns....

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  #645  
Old 01-12-18, 09:34 AM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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He also came back to Cincinnati, coaching for the Reds for many years and living in the city until his passing. A much beloved figure who was very loyal to both the Reds and Cincinnati.
As an example, he was inducted into the Reds Hall of Fame in 1962 -- ONE YEAR after his last season as a player.
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  #646  
Old 01-12-18, 11:33 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
He also came back to Cincinnati, coaching for the Reds for many years and living in the city until his passing. A much beloved figure who was very loyal to both the Reds and Cincinnati.
As an example, he was inducted into the Reds Hall of Fame in 1962 -- ONE YEAR after his last season as a player.
So his number was retired for WHO he was as much as for what he did on the field?
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  #647  
Old 01-12-18, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
So his number was retired for WHO he was as much as for what he did on the field?
I know where you are going here. Klu was a major force for the Reds for a 4 year period, finishing in the top 10 in mvp voting several times. Phillips hasnít had one year that even compares to Kluís top 4-5.
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  #648  
Old 01-12-18, 03:03 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Hamilton, DeSclafani and Lorenzen all sign one year deals to avoid arbitration. Gennett and Suarez both remain unsigned.
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  #649  
Old 01-12-18, 03:14 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is online now
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
I respectfully disagree with your criteria. Baseball is the one team sport that one single individual has the least amount of control over. A batter only has 4-5 at bats a game to make an impact on that game, and limited ability to contribute to team success. Heck a team can even intentionally walk a batter when the key situations arise.
No you don't, did you even read my criteria? With the exception of the WS MVP, which would require a good enough team to get there, earning your way to the HOF, winning WS MVP or just a regular season MVP are all individual accomplishments. You disagree with what I said about Votto, which really isn't my view on him. If you had even a bit of reading comprehension you might not put your foot in your mouth so much.

Quote:
I can't depict a better example than our current player, Joey Votto. He's going to go down as the best offensive player in team history, bar none. We certainly love Rose, Morgan, Bench, Perez, etc. But you take any of those guys and put them individually on teams and do they carry teams to world series titles?
I never argued this, don't think anyone else has either.

Quote:
Can you penalize a great offensive baseball player because the team doesn't have great pitching, which is more of the barometer of success in baseball?
Never argued this either.

Quote:
We'll probably find out soon on this, as more than likely, Votto's career will not include a world series title. Then how will you view him?
I view Votto as one of the best hitters in the game. His plate approach drove me nuts earlier in his career because he was too bull-headed about getting on base when runners were available to, especially late in close games. However, this past season he seemed more aggressive, especially when the team needed him to be and he owned pretty much every offensive category except homeruns though he did smack 30+ of those.

Personally I think Votto would be deserving of having his #19 retired by the Reds, especially if he stays with the team as they rebuild. Hopefully they get him a chance to play in more postseason games, but like you said that isn't so much on him. However, I could see his lack of postseason experience (never has won a playoff series) and his lone MVP to date, being reasons why people would pass on his number being retired. I disagree with them, but I can actually tolerate others opinions unlike you Red.
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  #650  
Old 01-12-18, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
No you don't, did you even read my criteria? With the exception of the WS MVP, which would require a good enough team to get there, earning your way to the HOF, winning WS MVP or just a regular season MVP are all individual accomplishments. You disagree with what I said about Votto, which really isn't my view on him. If you had even a bit of reading comprehension you might not put your foot in your mouth so much.



Personally I think Votto would be deserving of having his #19 retired by the Reds, especially if he stays with the team as they rebuild. Hopefully they get him a chance to play in more postseason games, but like you said that isn't so much on him. However, I could see his lack of postseason experience (never has won a playoff series) and his lone MVP to date, being reasons why people would pass on his number being retired. I disagree with them, but I can actually tolerate others opinions unlike you Red.
My apologies ad, should have read a little closer. But to even think that, I would say if Votto retired tomorrow, he's done enough to warrant his number being retired. His individual stats and accomplishments stand by themselves, especially today when the game has really turned into metrics. I'll use another example, let's say Joe Morgan - who only played for the Reds for 8 seasons - played in an 8 year stretch where the Reds did not make the playoffs. Does he get his number retired? I say possibly no.
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  #651  
Old 01-15-18, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
My apologies ad, should have read a little closer. But to even think that, I would say if Votto retired tomorrow, he's done enough to warrant his number being retired. His individual stats and accomplishments stand by themselves, especially today when the game has really turned into metrics. I'll use another example, let's say Joe Morgan - who only played for the Reds for 8 seasons - played in an 8 year stretch where the Reds did not make the playoffs. Does he get his number retired? I say possibly no.
You can't be serious. 8 straight All-Star appearances (1972-79). NL MVP in 1975 and 1976. You have to be trolling.
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  #652  
Old 01-15-18, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
You can't be serious. 8 straight All-Star appearances (1972-79). NL MVP in 1975 and 1976. You have to be trolling.
Ok, I'll continue...does the 8 straight All star appearances still resonate today? The all star voting was ALL done by the fans back then. We vividly remember guys who had no business being voted going to the game. Now Morgan certainly deserved being there. But again, how much of that had to do with the Reds team success? What if he was on the Astros still?
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  #653  
Old 01-15-18, 12:15 PM
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So let me summarize for you. Tell me which part of your posts I misunderstood.

You think that the Reds should consider Brandon Phillips #4 for retirement:
11 years with Reds, .324 OBP, 17 HR/year, 77 RBI/year, 80 Runs/year, 18 SB/year, outstanding defense. He also played through a thumb injury and was very likable.

You think Joe Morgan's #8 would not have been considered for retirement if he had not played for the Big Red Machine:
"only" 8 years with the Reds, .412 OBP, 19 HR/year, 76 RBI/year, 102 Runs/year, 51 SB/year, outstanding defense. Oh, and two NL MVP awards.

At some point just stop debating. You have no basis in reality.
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  #654  
Old 01-15-18, 12:18 PM
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I hope he’s just trolling and doesn’t really have a single digit IQ.
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  #655  
Old 01-15-18, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Now Morgan certainly deserved being there. But again, how much of that had to do with the Reds team success? What if he was on the Astros still?
I have to give you credit though. You are correct that the Reds would not have retired Morgan's #8 if he had stayed on the Astros the whole time! Great thinking!
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  #656  
Old 01-15-18, 12:43 PM
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I have to give you credit though. You are correct that the Reds would not have retired Morgan's #8 if he had stayed on the Astros the whole time! Great thinking!
Again wolves, you are completely missing my point. My point is in the sport of baseball, where an individual players accomplishment's have the least to do with team success, we still equate great teams with great individual players. Hense, if Morgan played for the Braves in the 70's, does he have the same career and same accolades as now?
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  #657  
Old 01-15-18, 01:47 PM
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Ok, I'll continue...does the 8 straight All star appearances still resonate today? The all star voting was ALL done by the fans back then. We vividly remember guys who had no business being voted going to the game. Now Morgan certainly deserved being there. But again, how much of that had to do with the Reds team success? What if he was on the Astros still?
All Star voting continues to be a joke with plenty of players getting snubbed every year in both leagues. It's no more credible of a marker of a players overall success now than it ever was before.

All you need to say is that every team must have at least one representative. There are plenty of years where a team legitimately has no All-Stars.
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  #658  
Old 01-15-18, 02:56 PM
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All Star voting continues to be a joke with plenty of players getting snubbed every year in both leagues. It's no more credible of a marker of a players overall success now than it ever was before.

All you need to say is that every team must have at least one representative. There are plenty of years where a team legitimately has no All-Stars.
They do, but at least now there is some input from managers and players, and it's not just a popularity contest. I love Johnny Bench, but how many all star games did he get voted into when there were other, more viable candidates? Ozzie Smith? Barry Larkin got jobbed from several all star games because fans blindly voted for a shortstop who could do a back flip when running on the field, and had a .220 batting average.
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  #659  
Old 01-15-18, 03:45 PM
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Andrew McCutcheon to the Giants.
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  #660  
Old 01-15-18, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Again wolves, you are completely missing my point. My point is in the sport of baseball, where an individual players accomplishment's have the least to do with team success, we still equate great teams with great individual players. Hense, if Morgan played for the Braves in the 70's, does he have the same career and same accolades as now?
a) It's spelled "Hence"
b) Of course players on successful team get more accolades than players on bad teams.
c) I didn't miss your point - you wanted the Reds to retire Brandon's #4 and brought Joe Morgan into the debate and hinted that he didn't deserve it. Read your stupid posts all over this thread if you need a reminder as to what you said.

So I will repost the facts and ask you to respond to the facts.
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