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  #1201  
Old 10-16-17, 07:17 PM
KramericaIndustries KramericaIndustries is offline
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QB is back in the pocket on a standard passing play. Defensive pressure arrives as he is throwing the ball and passers arm is hooked while also being hit from the other side.

The ball clearly pops backward and is recovered by the defense behind where the QB was throwing from, but the refs rule that because he was in the process of a forward throwing motion, it is an incomplete pass.

At no time did the ball travel forward, despite the forward arm motion and loss of possession being pretty much at the same time.

Did these refs screw up?
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  #1202  
Old 10-16-17, 07:52 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KramericaIndustries View Post
QB is back in the pocket on a standard passing play. Defensive pressure arrives as he is throwing the ball and passers arm is hooked while also being hit from the other side.

The ball clearly pops backward and is recovered by the defense behind where the QB was throwing from, but the refs rule that because he was in the process of a forward throwing motion, it is an incomplete pass.

At no time did the ball travel forward, despite the forward arm motion and loss of possession being pretty much at the same time.

Did these refs screw up?
Very hard to judge without seeing the play. Any chance you have a video?
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  #1203  
Old 10-16-17, 09:04 PM
KramericaIndustries KramericaIndustries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Very hard to judge without seeing the play. Any chance you have a video?
I do not, but not sure why video would be needed. Whether intentional or caused by defense, any ball that travels backward should be a live ball, no? There isn't some exception clause for "meant to throw the ball forward but it actually went backward", is there?

Are you saying it's a judgement call about it going backwards (it clearly did) or is there some other judgement that comes into play on this situation?
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  #1204  
Old 10-16-17, 09:05 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Very hard to judge without seeing the play. Any chance you have a video?
We do not need video to answer this question as Rule 2-31-2 (definition of a forward pass) has a "Note" that states....

Prior to releasing the ball on a pass, if the potential passer is contacted, and the ball is released, it is a forward pass if his arm was moving forward on contact.

The situation presented has a passer with his arm moving forward while being contacted and the ball is released.....

Incomplete Forward Pass
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  #1205  
Old 10-17-17, 05:46 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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And while we're talking about passes ... it doesn't matter if it is overhand, underhand, two-handed, or a back-handed option pitch, forward is forward.
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  #1206  
Old 10-17-17, 06:26 PM
mustang51 mustang51 is offline
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can a lineman line up in the backfield take a handoff and then throw a forward pass?
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  #1207  
Old 10-17-17, 07:00 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustang51 View Post
can a lineman line up in the backfield take a handoff and then throw a forward pass?
Yes. You must have at least 5 players numbered between 50-79 on the LOS, but they can be in the backfield too.

Last edited by AllSports12; 10-17-17 at 07:50 PM.
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  #1208  
Old 10-17-17, 09:28 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustang51 View Post
can a lineman line up in the backfield take a handoff and then throw a forward pass?
By the alignment you describe above, this player is a back, not a lineman. If his number is 50-79 the only restriction he has placed upon him is one of an ineligible receiver.
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  #1209  
Old 10-18-17, 07:40 AM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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Offensive Linemen - Permissible Offset from Neutral Zone

Looking at a typical 5-man OL (T-G-C-G-T), how far back from the neutral zone can the tackles be positioned? In other words, how deep of a V can the OL form before a lineman is considered to be in the backfield?
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  #1210  
Old 10-18-17, 08:37 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriangleMan View Post
Looking at a typical 5-man OL (T-G-C-G-T), how far back from the neutral zone can the tackles be positioned? In other words, how deep of a V can the OL form before a lineman is considered to be in the backfield?
For officiating purposes, we do not worry about Center, Guard, Tackle, Tight End.... we have Backs, Linemen, and Ends......

A lineman is any A player who is facing his opponent’s goal line with the line of his shoulders approximately parallel thereto and with his head or foot breaking an imaginary plane drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the
waist of the snapper when the ball is snapped.

As far as the V is concerned..... No matter who is on the end of the line, that player must meet the criteria noted above.
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  #1211  
Old 10-19-17, 05:50 PM
KramericaIndustries KramericaIndustries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
And while we're talking about passes ... it doesn't matter if it is overhand, underhand, two-handed, or a back-handed option pitch, forward is forward.
Yes, and it doesnt matter if by pitch, lateral, 2-handed, or arm direction, a ball traveling backward is backwards, and by any sane person's definition, not a forward pass.

Absolute insanity that definition of a forward pass is related to direction of arm motion and not where the ball actually traveled. What an incredibly terrible rule.
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  #1212  
Old 10-19-17, 06:40 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KramericaIndustries View Post
Yes, and it doesnt matter if by pitch, lateral, 2-handed, or arm direction, a ball traveling backward is backwards, and by any sane person's definition, not a forward pass.

Absolute insanity that definition of a forward pass is related to direction of arm motion and not where the ball actually traveled. What an incredibly terrible rule.
National Federation rules are different on occasion due to the large discrepancy in the abilities of the players (remember these rules are used in youth football as well) and the officials. This rule helps keep the balance between the offense and defense intact.

In this situation...... it is a forward pass under NFL, NCAA, and NFHS rules.

Last edited by AllSports12; 10-19-17 at 08:25 PM.
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  #1213  
Old 10-19-17, 07:51 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KramericaIndustries View Post
Absolute insanity that definition of a forward pass is related to direction of arm motion and not where the ball actually traveled. What an incredibly terrible rule.
Actually I think the rule is the same at all levels of football.
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  #1214  
Old 10-21-17, 12:47 PM
custom81 custom81 is offline
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blocked punt

Team A has ball with 3rd and 30. Team A decides to quick kick to try to change field position. Team B partially blocks kick and the ball travels 20 yards in air passes the line of scrimmage where team B muffs the kick and team A recovers. The officials spend time discussing the call. Their call was that Team A gets ball where they recovered it. But since the ball was muffed and they were short of first down marker it made it 4th down. Team A had to punt the ball again. Please help with this call.
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  #1215  
Old 10-21-17, 06:52 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by custom81 View Post
Team A has ball with 3rd and 30. Team A decides to quick kick to try to change field position. Team B partially blocks kick and the ball travels 20 yards in air passes the line of scrimmage where team B muffs the kick and team A recovers. The officials spend time discussing the call. Their call was that Team A gets ball where they recovered it. But since the ball was muffed and they were short of first down marker it made it 4th down. Team A had to punt the ball again. Please help with this call.
If the play happened as you described it should be a 1st down for A.
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  #1216  
Old 10-21-17, 09:01 PM
Ansoniafan Ansoniafan is offline
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Happened last night against Tri Village. They scored as time expired ending the game but there were offsetting personal fouls against both teams. How is this ruled? TD counts? Replay down? Game over no score?
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  #1217  
Old 10-21-17, 09:27 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansoniafan View Post
Happened last night against Tri Village. They scored as time expired ending the game but there were offsetting personal fouls against both teams. How is this ruled? TD counts? Replay down? Game over no score?
It depends when the fouls occurred.

If when the ball was live, then the down is replayed. If after the TD, the game is over, provided the score was not tied as a result of the TD
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  #1218  
Old 10-23-17, 06:15 AM
custom81 custom81 is offline
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Muffed Punt

Thanks, The hope the crew that worked the Canton South -Carrollton game read this. They owe Canton South's staff and fans an apology for not knowing a basic football rule.
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  #1219  
Old 10-23-17, 08:40 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Point of note

I'm not sure how many places this is an issue, but showing replays of controversial/missed calls should probably be a no-no.

I was at the Mooney-Ursuline game this past week and on a play late in the game (fortunately the game had already been decided) the Ursuline QB got hit, lost the ball, and Mooney recovered.

For whatever reason, the whistle was blown early and the play was called dead.

To us in the stands it was pretty clear what happened but with the game decided, whatever.

THEN they put the replay on the screen and it was even more clear that it was a fumble. Quite a few fans booed. Again, no huge deal since the game was basically over. If it had been say a tight game, and that call was blown it might have been more ugly. The play took place deep in Ursuline's own end. Mooney would have had the ball at the Ursuline 10 or 15 yard line.

STILL, if I'm a ref the last thing i want is the replay going up on the board. That's not cool.
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  #1220  
Old 10-23-17, 03:22 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Point of note

I'm not sure how many places this is an issue, but showing replays of controversial/missed calls should probably be a no-no.

I was at the Mooney-Ursuline game this past week and on a play late in the game (fortunately the game had already been decided) the Ursuline QB got hit, lost the ball, and Mooney recovered.

For whatever reason, the whistle was blown early and the play was called dead.

To us in the stands it was pretty clear what happened but with the game decided, whatever.

THEN they put the replay on the screen and it was even more clear that it was a fumble. Quite a few fans booed. Again, no huge deal since the game was basically over. If it had been say a tight game, and that call was blown it might have been more ugly. The play took place deep in Ursuline's own end. Mooney would have had the ball at the Ursuline 10 or 15 yard line.

STILL, if I'm a ref the last thing i want is the replay going up on the board. That's not cool.
Not much you can do about this other than halt the game if the reactions become so severe that it interrupts the game.

Certainly however, a game report should be filed with the state association as well as your assigner.
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  #1221  
Old 10-28-17, 07:45 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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What is the rule for the offense breaking the huddle with 12 players? I've seen what I believe to be an infraction happen several time this season with no penalty.
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  #1222  
Old 10-28-17, 09:00 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
What is the rule for the offense breaking the huddle with 12 players? I've seen what I believe to be an infraction happen several time this season with no penalty.
There is not now, nor has there even been a rule (NFHS Rules) regarding breaking the huddle with 12. That comes from the NFL and NCAA.

When a substitute enters the game, the player he has come in for must leave "immediately". "Immediately" is interpreted as 3-5 seconds as it allows for communication and/or confusion between the players.
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  #1223  
Old 10-28-17, 09:15 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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First and goal at the nine... QB drops back to pass and throws incomplete. Defense is called for a personal foul - roughing the QB (at least that's what the flag was for - not sure if that's the terminology that was used. The result was 1st and goal from the 4 1/2.

Were the penalty and down enforced correctly?
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  #1224  
Old 10-28-17, 09:54 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpico View Post
First and goal at the nine... QB drops back to pass and throws incomplete. Defense is called for a personal foul - roughing the QB (at least that's what the flag was for - not sure if that's the terminology that was used. The result was 1st and goal from the 4 1/2.

Were the penalty and down enforced correctly?
Yes

Roughing the Passer, Kicker, Snapper, and Holder all result (and are the only ones that result) in an automatic first down.

The enforcement from the 9 to the 4 1/2 was half the distance to the goal line.
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  #1225  
Old 10-29-17, 12:17 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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So I'm at the Mooney-Fitch game on Friday night and I saw something I've never seen before.

At least 4-5 times the refs pulled players that seemed headed for a personal foul and appeared to send them off the field for a play. No flag or anything. They would just escort the overly excited player to the sideline and a sub would come on.

One time they pulled off a defensive linemen before a 3rd and 1 which seemed a little absurd.

Now granted they also threw about 6 personal foul flags, but they also used this tactic of 'sending off' players to try and keep control of the game.

I've never seen this at any level of football before. Is this something new?

Also, a second question. Is there a limit to personal foul flags before a player is ejected?

There was a player for Fitch that definitely got 2 such flags and it appeared that several Mooney players and coaches were holding up 2 fingers and shouting 'that's 2!' while seemingly expecting some sort of consequences. Is there such a rule?

Thanks!
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  #1226  
Old 10-29-17, 12:19 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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One other...

snap goes back to the punter, he sidesteps one defender to avoid a block then gets it off without much trouble and then gets taken out by two defensive players after the kick is away.

Foul or not?
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  #1227  
Old 10-29-17, 12:23 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
So I'm at the Mooney-Fitch game on Friday night and I saw something I've never seen before.

At least 4-5 times the refs pulled players that seemed headed for a personal foul and appeared to send them off the field for a play. No flag or anything. They would just escort the overly excited player to the sideline and a sub would come on.

One time they pulled off a defensive linemen before a 3rd and 1 which seemed a little absurd.

Now granted they also threw about 6 personal foul flags, but they also used this tactic of 'sending off' players to try and keep control of the game.

I've never seen this at any level of football before. Is this something new?
Started employing this about 5 years ago. A player that is just about to reach that threshold of earning a flag for his conduct is offered up to his head coach in lieu of the flag. He can come back when the coach deems that he is ready. Repeat offenders not welcome.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Also, a second question. Is there a limit to personal foul flags before a player is ejected?

There was a player for Fitch that definitely got 2 such flags and it appeared that several Mooney players and coaches were holding up 2 fingers and shouting 'that's 2!' while seemingly expecting some sort of consequences. Is there such a rule?

Thanks!
No limit on the PF's..... 2 unsporting fouls is an automatic disqualification from the contest.
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  #1228  
Old 10-29-17, 12:32 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Started employing this about 5 years ago. A player that is just about to reach that threshold of earning a flag for his conduct is offered up to his head coach in lieu of the flag. He can come back when the coach deems that he is ready. Repeat offenders not welcome.





No limit on the PF's..... 2 unsporting fouls is an automatic disqualification from the contest.
so whats the difference between personal foul and unsporting?
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  #1229  
Old 10-29-17, 12:37 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
so whats the difference between personal foul and unsporting?
Personal Fouls involve contact
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  #1230  
Old 10-29-17, 12:50 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Personal Fouls involve contact
Gotcha, thanks!

what about the punting question?
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