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  #1  
Old 08-29-17, 11:41 PM
ccalum ccalum is offline
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How should HS soccer be refereed?

I ask because of Tuesday night's Springboro-Fairmont game, which Boro won 3-1, deservedly. The referee chose not to call fouls on several aggressive challenges in the first half that certainly looked like fouls to me (from both sides). This led to chippy, physical play the rest of the way from players, loud complaints from parents, taunts from the student section, and both coaches reading the center ref the riot act a few times (each side had a coach carded). It was kind of a mess. Personally, I DON'T want to see every potential foul called. There's plenty of contact that kids can play through. But at some point, I feel there's a player safety issue when kids aren't being called for coming through the back of other players. How often do you see this come up in high school games, and what different ways have you seen refs handle it?
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  #2  
Old 08-29-17, 11:52 PM
ohiosoccer1 ohiosoccer1 is offline
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Until OHSAA finds a way to increase referee pay, the higher quality refs will continue to avoid HS games. More drama and rowdier crowds and less pay than most club leagues. I'm sure the refs at your match, or any match, weren't intentionally letting the game get out of hand, they just missed a snap call and the game develops from there.
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  #3  
Old 08-30-17, 10:34 AM
steelboot steelboot is offline
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False. High School Refs are paid the same amount as Club refs. In fact most of the High School refs have reffed my team's Club games. Reffing is just bad. Put lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig. I honestly don't think a lot of these refs have ever played the game of soccer which would give them another perspective of what is a foul and what is not. Refs get themselves into hot water with their inconsistency.
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  #4  
Old 08-30-17, 11:25 AM
2731 2731 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelboot View Post
False. High School Refs are paid the same amount as Club refs. In fact most of the High School refs have reffed my team's Club games. Reffing is just bad. Put lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig. I honestly don't think a lot of these refs have ever played the game of soccer which would give them another perspective of what is a foul and what is not. Refs get themselves into hot water with their inconsistency.
Absolutely.

I'd add that their inconsistency results in part from their complete lack of fitness. If we are gonna continue to trot out these grandfathers we need to add two more to the field and go to a 5 man system.

The game is too big and too fast for the majority.
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  #5  
Old 08-30-17, 11:33 AM
hsfanOnRC hsfanOnRC is offline
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You know you are complaining about a ref that does college too? If it was as bad as you all are suggesting, isn't the Springboro coach a national evaluator?

The refs love the game, that's why they ref.

I agree, they need to be paid the same as hs basketball and football.
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  #6  
Old 08-30-17, 11:34 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohiosoccer1 View Post
Until OHSAA finds a way to increase referee pay, the higher quality refs will continue to avoid HS games. More drama and rowdier crowds and less pay than most club leagues. I'm sure the refs at your match, or any match, weren't intentionally letting the game get out of hand, they just missed a snap call and the game develops from there.
I don't know all the ins and outs, but part of it has to do with how big games - especially tournament games - are assigned. Many young, fit referees can't get quality high school games because they haven't refereed long enough, so they forego high school altogether. I know of 2 referees who regularly do NCAA division 1 games and can't get a game past the first few rounds of the tournament. So they decided not to mess with high school games anymore.
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  #7  
Old 08-30-17, 12:04 PM
OhioBobcatFan06 OhioBobcatFan06 is offline
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I was certified with the OHSAA last year to referee high school but did not re-certify.

The OHSAA licensing requirements are separate from the standard referee license through US Soccer. I recently completed the FIFA fitness test for referees. The pay at the high school level is not worth the hassle for me, especially when you consider refereeing high school doesn't help me advance to the college or national levels. A U-18 club game does count towards advancement.

I think high school referees are going to increasingly be baseball and basketball referees who never played soccer but need a fall sport to ref. These guys are usually good at being "authorities" on the field but tend to lack the positioning, fitness and knowledge of the game of referees with a background in soccer.
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  #8  
Old 08-30-17, 02:37 PM
youngmanmom youngmanmom is offline
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The beginning of the game is the toughest, when the kids haven't figured out how the calls will be made. They will foul/be offsides as much as allowed by the staff for that particular game allows.

Also, I was really surprised as my son entered high school and there are only two refs for his games. That really doesn't make it difficult to cover the field. In club games he has had three refs for a few years now.
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  #9  
Old 08-30-17, 05:51 PM
2731 2731 is online now
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Originally Posted by youngmanmom View Post
The beginning of the game is the toughest, when the kids haven't figured out how the calls will be made. They will foul/be offsides as much as allowed by the staff for that particular game allows.

Also, I was really surprised as my son entered high school and there are only two refs for his games. That really doesn't make it difficult to cover the field. In club games he has had three refs for a few years now.
Heh heh. Welcome to high school. The upperclassmen, know the refs and know how the game is gonna go before it starts. They talk and pay attention. When they get get one they know can't keep up.... Katy... Bar the door. We talk about disappointment with the system, players, adjust and push the envelope. The good ones know exactly what's going on.
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  #10  
Old 08-31-17, 09:27 PM
phatneff phatneff is offline
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It's the same thing every year........a lot of armchair referees that want to voice their opinions about referees. They're probably the same people that complain about who's in office but don't get out to vote. Instead of complaining, do something about it. Earn your way to the higher games. Don't quit because they aren't handed to you. If you can't deal with it, don't complain about it. Do something about it. Otherwise, we'll just hear your complaints for each four-year stint you have a kid in high school. I don't know what else to tell you. When you ask "how should HS soccer be refereed?", the simple answer is to ref it like you would any other soccer game or sport..........according to the Laws of the Game, with the understanding of the game, and in your style. The reason why these guys that you complain about are out there is because there isn't anybody else. It's because nobody wants to "deal with it." Or they quit because it's not the way they want it to be, or they don't get the games they want. Pay your dues, get noticed, and show you deserve to be where you want to be. If those guys that trot out there weren't out there, you'd complain that your kid can't play high school soccer because there aren't any referees.

Bottom line, stop talking about the referees. The system sucks and it isn't perfect by any means, but continuing to complain about it every year on message boards isn't going to do anything. Instead, talk about the games that you watched without talking about the referees. The referees NEVER, and I mean NEVER, determine the outcome of a game, no matter what you think about it.

Have a good night.
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  #11  
Old 09-01-17, 07:27 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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If you have a problem with refereeing, become one. Help out. Especially if you are convinced you are better than the guy that's out there.

Every area of the state is in need of more referees in every sport across the board.
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  #12  
Old 09-01-17, 07:49 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Originally Posted by phatneff View Post
The referees NEVER, and I mean NEVER, determine the outcome of a game, no matter what you think about it.
This should probably be changed to "very rarely."
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  #13  
Old 09-01-17, 07:58 AM
2731 2731 is online now
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Originally Posted by ammtd34 View Post
This should probably be changed to "very rarely."
Now that we've heard from the status quo... let's get back to scraping the lipstick off the pigs. "Pay your dues" ok grandpa. I'm sure there are 100s of Millennials that know what you're saying there.

If the knee brace army would move over, necessity would do her thing about invention.
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  #14  
Old 09-01-17, 08:49 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Originally Posted by phatneff View Post
Earn your way to the higher games. Don't quit because they aren't handed to you.
This is what I was talking about. They're getting better, higher paying games. They just aren't high school.
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  #15  
Old 09-01-17, 09:49 AM
soref soref is offline
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Originally Posted by 2731 View Post
Now that we've heard from the status quo... let's get back to scraping the lipstick off the pigs. "Pay your dues" ok grandpa. I'm sure there are 100s of Millennials that know what you're saying there.

If the knee brace army would move over, necessity would do her thing about invention.
So you think that if the "knee brace army" retires then all of a sudden others would step up? I don't understand that logic and don't think that is true.
If there were younger refs willing to step up then the older ones would continue to see their games reduce year by year until they realize that they are no longer needed. A lot of the older refs have contributed a TON to the game over many years, whether you think they are good or not, and are still working games because they enjoy it and they know that they are needed.
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  #16  
Old 09-01-17, 10:05 AM
2731 2731 is online now
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Originally Posted by soref View Post
So you think that if the "knee brace army" retires then all of a sudden others would step up? I don't understand that logic and don't think that is true.
If there were younger refs willing to step up then the older ones would continue to see their games reduce year by year until they realize that they are no longer needed. A lot of the older refs have contributed a TON to the game over many years, whether you think they are good or not, and are still working games because they enjoy it and they know that they are needed.
You think if the old guard left High School Soccer would end?

The very first thing that would happen is the license requirement would open to all US Soccer licensed refs. And that's just a pen stroke.
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  #17  
Old 09-01-17, 10:35 AM
soref soref is offline
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Originally Posted by 2731 View Post
You think if the old guard left High School Soccer would end?

The very first thing that would happen is the license requirement would open to all US Soccer licensed refs. And that's just a pen stroke.
Sorry, I don't think it's that easy:

#1 - High School "rules" are sanctioned by NFHS and US Soccer laws are sanctioned by USSF. OHSAA wouldn't just allow all USSF licensed officials ref OHSAA matches without being licensed OHSAA officials

#2 - If all USSF licensed officials wanted to referee High School the majority of them would be doing it right now anyway
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  #18  
Old 09-01-17, 10:47 AM
2731 2731 is online now
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Originally Posted by soref View Post
Sorry, I don't think it's that easy:

#1 - High School "rules" are sanctioned by NFHS and US Soccer laws are sanctioned by USSF. OHSAA wouldn't just allow all USSF licensed officials ref OHSAA matches without being licensed OHSAA officials

#2 - If all USSF licensed officials wanted to referee High School the majority of them would be doing it right now anyway
The high school rules would evaporate if there was an overwhelming need, such as the collapse of the status quo.

There doesn't need to be two licensing and rules authorities, that's archaic, but it also keeps the status quo.

The entire world is reviewing referee performance in order to improve the sport. But everything is fine just the way it is here. Ok.
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  #19  
Old 09-01-17, 01:18 PM
soref soref is offline
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Originally Posted by 2731 View Post
The high school rules would evaporate if there was an overwhelming need, such as the collapse of the status quo.

There doesn't need to be two licensing and rules authorities, that's archaic, but it also keeps the status quo.

The entire world is reviewing referee performance in order to improve the sport. But everything is fine just the way it is here. Ok.
I'm not saying that everything is fine here but explaining the way that it works. The USSF is doing a great job of "reviewing referee performance" and developing better referees year after year but they aren't directly connected with NFHS. Heck, they are actually stealing players from NFHS to build their DA's!
I couldn't agree with you more that we should all play under the same rules or laws but those that make the decisions don't agree.
NFHS and even NCAA have rules that are different than USSF/FIFA/IFAB and their main reason is that the players are student athletes.
There are 4 different sets of rules/laws that I deal with right now as either a referee or a coach:
USSF/IFAB
NFHS
NISOA (NCAA)
SAY
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  #20  
Old 09-01-17, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by soref View Post
I'm not saying that everything is fine here but explaining the way that it works. The USSF is doing a great job of "reviewing referee performance" and developing better referees year after year but they aren't directly connected with NFHS. Heck, they are actually stealing players from NFHS to build their DA's!
I couldn't agree with you more that we should all play under the same rules or laws but those that make the decisions don't agree.
NFHS and even NCAA have rules that are different than USSF/FIFA/IFAB and their main reason is that the players are student athletes.
There are 4 different sets of rules/laws that I deal with right now as either a referee or a coach:
USSF/IFAB
NFHS
NISOA (NCAA)
SAY


Oooooooooo you make substitution and time keeping differences sound so esoteric. HS allows US soccer certification and requires a fitness test. There done. Not hard at all.
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  #21  
Old 09-03-17, 10:10 PM
soref soref is offline
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Oooooooooo you make substitution and time keeping differences sound so esoteric. HS allows US soccer certification and requires a fitness test. There done. Not hard at all.
There are MANY other rules differences than that. I could send you the comparison sheet if you are really interested in facts instead of just unintelligent ranting.
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  #22  
Old 09-04-17, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by soref View Post
There are MANY other rules differences than that. I could send you the comparison sheet if you are really interested in facts instead of just unintelligent ranting.
Pfft. keep your pride. The construct that keeps the quality low will remain in place until the last dog is dead. And you are absolutely correct when you say by then, I won't care. In fact I stop caring every December.
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  #23  
Old 09-05-17, 01:12 PM
coolguy coolguy is offline
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What "could" help are 2 suggestions below ---

1.) Either conduct all required meetings online, or cut down on the number of required meeting to be attended (4 + 1 mandatory rules interp.)

2.) USSF Grade 7's walk in as OHSAA Class 1 referee



I can tell you that there are a number of referees (disregard their talent as ref) that are frustrated with the required 4 meetings, rules interp meeting & annual association dues that they face each year.

For sake of argument, let's use a Grade 8 referee for USSF as the example. Each calendar year, that referee attends 1 re-cert meeting and pays a yearly due. That same referee do be on the low end of OHSAA totem pole (Class 2) is required to pay a similar fee, attend 1 rules interp meeting as well as 4 additional meetings.

My point is that I think we can agree to an extent that the talent (teams) seen in USSF games are typically superior to those we see in OHSAA. With that in mind, we ask more out of the referees (off-field items) for OHSAA than what we do for USSF.

It is beneficial for the OHSAA to tap into the USSF talent pool of referees. Finding ways to create an easier/smoother transition between the 2 platforms will help this.
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  #24  
Old 09-06-17, 02:48 PM
soref soref is offline
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Originally Posted by coolguy View Post
What "could" help are 2 suggestions below ---

1.) Either conduct all required meetings online, or cut down on the number of required meeting to be attended (4 + 1 mandatory rules interp.)

2.) USSF Grade 7's walk in as OHSAA Class 1 referee



I can tell you that there are a number of referees (disregard their talent as ref) that are frustrated with the required 4 meetings, rules interp meeting & annual association dues that they face each year.

For sake of argument, let's use a Grade 8 referee for USSF as the example. Each calendar year, that referee attends 1 re-cert meeting and pays a yearly due. That same referee do be on the low end of OHSAA totem pole (Class 2) is required to pay a similar fee, attend 1 rules interp meeting as well as 4 additional meetings.

My point is that I think we can agree to an extent that the talent (teams) seen in USSF games are typically superior to those we see in OHSAA. With that in mind, we ask more out of the referees (off-field items) for OHSAA than what we do for USSF.

It is beneficial for the OHSAA to tap into the USSF talent pool of referees. Finding ways to create an easier/smoother transition between the 2 platforms will help this.


I just wonder how interested OHSAA is to finding a solution for the referee shortage and/or quality?
I know many local associations have tried improving on training and have even proposed assessing officials but there hasn't been much support from OHSAA in the past.
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Old 09-07-17, 09:51 AM
coolguy coolguy is offline
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Originally Posted by soref View Post


I just wonder how interested OHSAA is to finding a solution for the referee shortage and/or quality?
I know many local associations have tried improving on training and have even proposed assessing officials but there hasn't been much support from OHSAA in the past.


I can attest to the training provided by local associations to the SW part of the state. There is a lot of great stuff offered and can be very beneficial to those newer to officiating and serves as a great refresher for the veterans. Certainly a good thing to have, but OHSAA implementing a threshold to meet can be viewed as a bit extreme.

Outside the mandatory observations needed to be a Class 1, there are currently no mandatory assessments. Improving the quality can be achieved if OHSAA treated their current Class 1 officials much like USSF treats current Grade 7's. Ensure that each year, a Class 1 obtains 2 assessments. Heck, allow it to be 1 as center and 1 as AR for the assessments. You could even allow the official to have their AR assessment be performed by the ref doing the center of that match.

Regardless, until you either make for a smoother transition for those in USSF and/or implement a re-cert process for Class 1, you may not see much change in the quality of referees for OHSAA. This isn't me saying the current quality is great, good, bad or ugly. Just simply saying it likely goes unchanged.
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  #26  
Old 09-07-17, 11:16 AM
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ELKSONE ELKSONE is offline
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As little as possible, play on boys!
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  #27  
Old 09-08-17, 10:12 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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As little as possible, play on boys!
I'm totally with you but I hear far more fans in the stands complaining for more calls than less.
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