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  #31  
Old 08-15-18, 09:42 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Surprised the Lakota West Thread was closed when there was some good dialogue back and forth that lead from multiple small feeders contributing seasoned starters verses bit feeders with less playing time to develop. It was a perfect lead in to this lawsuit thread.
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  #32  
Old 08-15-18, 09:43 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Here are some interesting numbers concerning schools that experienced change in division of some sort this season from the OHSAA's list of football divisional assignments. I think quite a few teams would be impacted if CB is rescinded.
http://www.ohsaa.org/Sports-Tourname...ol-Assignments

OVERALL NUMBERS - ALL DIVISIONS

8 Moved up a Division due to Competitive Balance
7 Moved up a Division due to EMIS (enrollment) numbers (or through a combination of EMIS plus CB)
25 Moved up due to EMIS, down due to Competitive Balance (CB) but net result is same Division as 2017
12 Moved down a Division due to Competitive Balance (CB)
8 Moved down a Division due to EMIS (enrollment) numbers
28 Moved down due to EMIS, up due to Competitive Balance (CB) but net result is same Division as 2017
Total 88 (12.2%)
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  #33  
Old 08-15-18, 10:14 PM
firewatch firewatch is offline
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Article in Canton paper


http://ow.ly/DrOM30lqmxo
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  #34  
Old 08-15-18, 10:14 PM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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If certain schools would’ve spent years building up their programs, they wouldn’t be crying about their athletes leaving their home districts today. Competitive balance is a lame excuse for programs who can’t win.

MAC schools are far more dominant at the “small school” level than anybody else in the state and “competitive balance” can’t save nobody in those divisions.
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  #35  
Old 08-15-18, 10:23 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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If CPB is rescinded, Coldwater would be back in D5.
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  #36  
Old 08-15-18, 10:34 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Worm02 View Post
If certain schools would’ve spent years building up their programs, they wouldn’t be crying about their athletes leaving their home districts today. Competitive balance is a lame excuse for programs who can’t win.
.

Seriously? Think about what you imply. It's an attempt at giving good programs COMPETITIVE games. Your approach sounds more like excuse making for teams whining they don't have an easy path to the state final. How is that "winning?"


We could debate whether or not it will be an effective plan but should we really need to debate the value of competitive games? Should we be calling people "lame" because they want a competitive system? I'm pretty sure that's how we grow stronger.
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  #37  
Old 08-15-18, 11:07 PM
parkhaven parkhaven is offline
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Originally Posted by The Dock View Post
That’s a pretty interesting way of saying “I think white people are superior to non-whites.” Way to show your colors, kid.
Faulty logic, chief. I'm sorry to hear that you don't like individual liberty.
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  #38  
Old 08-15-18, 11:10 PM
parkhaven parkhaven is offline
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Where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by just a fan View Post
So, you think we should do away with divisions in high school sports?
Where did I say that in my post? Seriously, wherever you graduated from, you should try to get your money back. They failed to educate you as to how to think critically.
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  #39  
Old 08-16-18, 12:49 AM
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Baron Von Steuben Baron Von Steuben is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I suspect that this will be a mess for the first few weeks but in the end, the competitive balance will remain.

Can any lawyers on here explain what reason this rule could be overturned?
Haven't seen the suit. From the articles cited Tier I is being attacked. Looking at the OHSAA link there is a difference on how to calculate Tier I between the publics and privates. Perhaps the Plaintiffs are arguing that Tier I is being applied in an unequal/unfair manner depending on the school type.
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  #40  
Old 08-16-18, 05:48 AM
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Private schools should welcome the chance to play up a division and move on. Only lawyers are winning this in this case, as usual.
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  #41  
Old 08-16-18, 06:27 AM
garydaddy1 garydaddy1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just a fan View Post
So, you think we should do away with divisions in high school sports?
Divisions are great for the player's and the fans.
Ohio's divisional system is fair and balanced, just like Fox News.
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  #42  
Old 08-16-18, 06:59 AM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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It’s weird to me that a private, voluntary organization, who’s rules are made by a simple majority vote of its members, can have a rule thrown out by the courts. It’s not like there’s some law about how to place schools in athletic divisions for the purpose of tournaments. If the OHSAA can’t enforce this rule, couldn’t they be sued over pretty much any rule?
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  #43  
Old 08-16-18, 07:06 AM
thecoachmoore thecoachmoore is offline
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If the rule is discriminatory in nature then I’m pretty sure a court can rule it as discriminatory and not allow it (not saying that’s the case, just saying in general)


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  #44  
Old 08-16-18, 07:08 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by parkhaven View Post
Faulty logic, chief. I'm sorry to hear that you don't like individual liberty.
His conclusion may be faulty, but not so much his logic. You are right that our country is built on the principle that all men are created equal. But it is also built on the reality that some people are more equal than others!
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  #45  
Old 08-16-18, 07:12 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammer89 View Post
It’s weird to me that a private, voluntary organization, who’s rules are made by a simple majority vote of its members, can have a rule thrown out by the courts. It’s not like there’s some law about how to place schools in athletic divisions for the purpose of tournaments. If the OHSAA can’t enforce this rule, couldn’t they be sued over pretty much any rule?
The question typically boils down to, "Is the OHSAA a private organization, or a quasi-governmental agency?" As a private organization, your logic is sound. But it has generally been held by the courts that by regulating high school sports (including public schools), OHSAA is performing a governmental function; which changes the dynamics when it gets into litigation.
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  #46  
Old 08-16-18, 07:19 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Can't say I'm surprised this happened - a little surprised it came from the GCL Co-ed. The timing tells me they know they're not going to win and this was an attempt to have one more year to compete in the divisions they feel they rightfully belong. Bad look all the way around.
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  #47  
Old 08-16-18, 07:26 AM
radiodavel 2 radiodavel 2 is offline
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See how CB plan worked last season

Does Ohio HS Football Now Have Competitive Balance? Looking Good!
https://statelinesportsnetwork.net/2017/11/25/does-ohio-hs-football-now-have-competitive-balance-looking-good


So in the first year of the new competitive balance plan in place, just one private school has qualified for a chance to play in a State title game
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  #48  
Old 08-16-18, 07:27 AM
Coach_B Coach_B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammer89 View Post
It’s weird to me that a private, voluntary organization, who’s rules are made by a simple majority vote of its members, can have a rule thrown out by the courts. It’s not like there’s some law about how to place schools in athletic divisions for the purpose of tournaments. If the OHSAA can’t enforce this rule, couldn’t they be sued over pretty much any rule?
This. This TRO will not stand. The court will not rule that a rule voted on and adopted by the member schools in a voluntary association like the OHSAA is unfair. Won't happen. If those affected by this don't like it, there's a simple solution and that's to leave and form their own association.
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  #49  
Old 08-16-18, 07:30 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I suspect that this will be a mess for the first few weeks but in the end, the competitive balance will remain.

Can any lawyers on here explain what reason this rule could be overturned?
First, you have to understand the rule has not been overturned. A TRO has been granted. The burden of proof is a relatively low standard to meet in these cases. You need to show there will be irreparable harm if relief is not granted and that there is no other adequate remedy at law. You can make the argument that CB, even though voted upon by its members, is an arbitrary and capricious standard that unduly affects, in this case, GCL-coed teams and is thus discriminatory. When a court hears an argument like this, I can see them concluding that the GCL met this burden of proof; which only means that a TRO is granted and then setting this matter for a follow up hearing on a preliminary injunction typically within 10 days. The fact that a TRO was granted does NOT mean the preliminary injunction will as well. It just means that the case will be set for a full hearing. IMO, I believe OHSAA should prevail at the preliminary injunction hearing. The court will consider whether the rule "discriminates"; which it does because it treats one set of schools differently than another. Then, since private schools are not considered a "protected class", the Court will consider whether the rule is rationally related to a legitimate governmental function. This is not a situation like a case of race or sex discrimination where the Court will apply a "strict scrutiny" standard. And IMO OHSAA can make a strong argument that since there are inherent advantages to private schools, then CB is rationally related to adjusting this to create a level playing field for all schools. I think that argument prevails. The bar will be much lower. And, IMO applying that lower standard, the Court should determine the rule is justified and the injunction will be denied. BUT, if the injunction is granted, then OHSAA will have to pivot and restructure divisions, playoffs, etc. in very short order.
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  #50  
Old 08-16-18, 08:15 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
Surprised the Lakota West Thread was closed when there was some good dialogue back and forth that lead from multiple small feeders contributing seasoned starters verses bit feeders with less playing time to develop. It was a perfect lead in to this lawsuit thread.
Yeah - just read about this today. I guess we found at least one person (or at least one person in charge at at least one school) that abhors competitive balance, LOL!!!

It is also funny that my off-handed comment about me not having a personal stake because top D1 teams can't be "balanced" appears to be part of their argument. The D1 equal protection argument they are making really makes no sense and is TOTALLY STUPID in this context.

On this one, I am on the side of most public school supporters (I would guess). GCL Coeds that complain about having to play up ONE SINGLE TIER should just shut up and move on.

By the way, are there any real school examples or is it even possible to get competitively balanced up two tiers?
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  #51  
Old 08-16-18, 08:20 AM
Summa Summa is offline
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Originally Posted by EagleFan View Post
Private schools should welcome the chance to play up a division and move on. Only lawyers are winning this in this case, as usual.
So St. Edward should welcome the chance to play college D3 football?
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  #52  
Old 08-16-18, 08:22 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
First, you have to understand the rule has not been overturned. A TRO has been granted. The burden of proof is a relatively low standard to meet in these cases. You need to show there will be irreparable harm if relief is not granted and that there is no other adequate remedy at law. You can make the argument that CB, even though voted upon by its members, is an arbitrary and capricious standard that unduly affects, in this case, GCL-coed teams and is thus discriminatory. When a court hears an argument like this, I can see them concluding that the GCL met this burden of proof; which only means that a TRO is granted and then setting this matter for a follow up hearing on a preliminary injunction typically within 10 days. The fact that a TRO was granted does NOT mean the preliminary injunction will as well. It just means that the case will be set for a full hearing. IMO, I believe OHSAA should prevail at the preliminary injunction hearing. The court will consider whether the rule "discriminates"; which it does because it treats one set of schools differently than another. Then, since private schools are not considered a "protected class", the Court will consider whether the rule is rationally related to a legitimate governmental function. This is not a situation like a case of race or sex discrimination where the Court will apply a "strict scrutiny" standard. And IMO OHSAA can make a strong argument that since there are inherent advantages to private schools, then CB is rationally related to adjusting this to create a level playing field for all schools. I think that argument prevails. The bar will be much lower. And, IMO applying that lower standard, the Court should determine the rule is justified and the injunction will be denied. BUT, if the injunction is granted, then OHSAA will have to pivot and restructure divisions, playoffs, etc. in very short order.
Obviously, the smartest thing the OHSAA did in establishing the guidelines was to include public and private schools. Should stand up under the 14th amendment equal protection clause. Frankly, as a private school supporter (although a D1 private school supporter), I am a little disgusted by this action. I think the competitive balance rules are fair and probably don't go far enough to even the playing field.

By the way, the D1 argument they are making is ridiculous - there will always be a top division from which no school can be move up. There is no way around that fact.
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  #53  
Old 08-16-18, 08:22 AM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Seriously? Think about what you imply. It's an attempt at giving good programs COMPETITIVE games. Your approach sounds more like excuse making for teams whining they don't have an easy path to the state final. How is that "winning?"


We could debate whether or not it will be an effective plan but should we really need to debate the value of competitive games? Should we be calling people "lame" because they want a competitive system? I'm pretty sure that's how we grow stronger.
Divisions were always about how large a school was. Not how good they are. I’m a fan of a longtime D1 school who is now D2 under the new format. Very few people here wanted an “easier” route to a state title, which we haven’t had since 1990.

Yes, it’s very “lame” to want a school like La Salle to “play up” just because after paying their dues in the GCL for years, they toughened up and became dominant. It’s “lame” for pedestrian Division 4 schools to complain about playing Mooney & Ursuline while Steubenville spent over an entire century building their tradition up and now has no problem playing anybody. At this point, getting bumped up to play Coldeater seems like an easier route to a championship than playing Marion Local, which further illustrates my point that divisions are based on the number of boys you have. Not how good you actually are.
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  #54  
Old 08-16-18, 08:28 AM
king kong king kong is offline
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Doesnt the catholic church and its diocese have BIGGER issues to worry about? Lets hide the fact that our priests are molesting hundreds of thousands of kids for years and years, and using the churches influence to cover it up, but by gawd, lets take it to court if they want us to play up a division in our sports programs! LOL
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  #55  
Old 08-16-18, 08:28 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoachmoore View Post
If the rule is discriminatory in nature then I’m pretty sure a court can rule it as discriminatory and not allow it (not saying that’s the case, just saying in general)

It's not that simple. It has to do with things like whether the group involved is protected or not, whether the intent of the alleged discriminatory action is to discriminate against that group, whether the effect of the law is particularly discriminatory (regardless of intent), whether the alleged discrimination is by the govt/state or a private organization, etc.

Practically every group or organization "discriminates" in the way they allow people to associate with them (private schools, country clubs, etc.) even if it is only monetary.
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  #56  
Old 08-16-18, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Yeah - just read about this today. I guess we found at least one person (or at least one person in charge at at least one school) that abhors competitive balance, LOL!!!

It is also funny that my off-handed comment about me not having a personal stake because top D1 teams can't be "balanced" appears to be part of their argument. The D1 equal protection argument they are making really makes no sense and is TOTALLY STUPID in this context.

On this one, I am on the side of most public school supporters (I would guess). GCL Coeds that complain about having to play up ONE SINGLE TIER should just shut up and move on.

By the way, are there any real school examples or is it even possible to get competitively balanced up two tiers?
Basically the 2 Division jump was amended into CB this year due to Toledo Central Catholic.
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  #57  
Old 08-16-18, 08:41 AM
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I'm guessing that in the end nothing, or not very much, happens. But I am positive that an Ohio county court's ruling will not create "a national ripple in some states."
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  #58  
Old 08-16-18, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Worm02 View Post
If certain schools would’ve spent years building up their programs, they wouldn’t be crying about their athletes leaving their home districts today. Competitive balance is a lame excuse for programs who can’t win.

MAC schools are far more dominant at the “small school” level than anybody else in the state and “competitive balance” can’t save nobody in those divisions.
How are they going to build a program when their best are continuously poached...or they have to compete against All Star teams.

Division placement should be based in some part on drawing area. If you are located in a large metro area you should be playing teams with a similar reach. To ignore that distinct advantage in roster building is naive.

It's like saying Mount Union can't offer scholarships but should still be expected to compete in the Big Ten.
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  #59  
Old 08-16-18, 09:26 AM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Why are they upset over just the Tier 1 part? That seems a bit odd to go after only one part of it.
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  #60  
Old 08-16-18, 09:33 AM
tom 48 tom 48 is offline
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"How are they going to build a program when their best are continuously poached...or they have to compete against All Star teams. "

I am interested in what programs are continually poached. Is the poaching public to public or public to private? It seems most of the poaching is public to public, unless one considers a private school kid living in a public school district and going to a private high school as being poached.
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