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  #31  
Old 05-06-17, 05:40 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
I'm not sure Richard Nixon's long term vision of America would have been much liked either.

I can agree there were plenty of factors that added up to the deaths, some of them caused by the protesters, some by ill-informed and clueless politicians and some by poor military leadership. It's a shame innocent kids got killed and mamed. Firing weapons in an active campus setting was an awful idea.
As horrific as this was, I am glad we are better at dealing with protest - even violent protest - today, despite not always agreeing with the (lack of) urgency with which we respond.
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  #32  
Old 05-06-17, 08:16 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Well put.

They never burned 50 buildings? And picking a side here is not the proper approach. The entire situation was simply unfortunate. Regardless of what anyone thinks 4 kids got shot in the back from a distance. Two of those kids were not even protesting but were simply heading to class.

My uncle was a guardsman who was there. He said they were a bunch of young kids as well who were put into a bad situation. He said once one nervous trigger went several others did.

Many people point to Kent St. as the turning point for American opinion on the war.

Still, not sufficient memorials if you ask me.
http://www.kent.edu/may-4-historical-accuracy

Kent State University's own accounting of the event says your accounting is pretty inaccurate. Only one kid was shot in the back and in fact they weren't running away when the shooting started... and only one kid was walking to class.
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  #33  
Old 05-06-17, 08:57 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by EagleGuy View Post
As horrific as this was, I am glad we are better at dealing with protest - even violent protest - today, despite not always agreeing with the (lack of) urgency with which we respond.
IF we are better at dealing with protest today (and I guess we are), it's because the right to free speech and free assembly has been dramatically curtailed. The restrictions put in place at political conventions pretty much eliminate the right to protest.
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  #34  
Old 05-06-17, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
IF we are better at dealing with protest today (and I guess we are), it's because the right to free speech and free assembly has been dramatically curtailed. The restrictions put in place at political conventions pretty much eliminate the right to protest.
Massive difference between a protest and burning buildings down, assaulting people you "disagree" with, assaulting police ect... please show any examples where police have broken up peaceful assemblies of protest that weren't endangering others or destroying property.
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  #35  
Old 05-06-17, 10:57 PM
buckeye53 buckeye53 is offline
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Nixon & Agnew the leaders of the free world, that both had to resign, due to criminal activity. Not saying other politicians aren't crooked, I think most are, but these 2 were an embarrassment big time.
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  #36  
Old 05-06-17, 11:29 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeye53 View Post
Nixon & Agnew the leaders of the free world, that both had to resign, due to criminal activity. Not saying other politicians aren't crooked, I think most are, but these 2 were an embarrassment big time.
Maybe, though Bill & Hillary Clinton are strong contenders. And, the last administration doesn't have a pristine record by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't know much about pre-seventies administrations' shenanigans, but would welcome any insights from Yappi posters. Maybe this would be a good topic for new thread.

Last edited by EagleGuy; 05-07-17 at 08:31 PM.
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  #37  
Old 05-07-17, 07:11 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Massive difference between a protest and burning buildings down, assaulting people you "disagree" with, assaulting police ect... please show any examples where police have broken up peaceful assemblies of protest that weren't endangering others or destroying property.
This is the same argument made by some about most civil rights. Who needs the 4th Amendment? If you have nothing to hide, what's the concern about letting the police search you, search your house?
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  #38  
Old 05-07-17, 08:30 AM
buckeye53 buckeye53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleGuy View Post
Maybe, though Bill & Hillary Clinton are strong contenders. And, the last administration doesn't have a pristine record by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't know much about pre-seventies administrations' shenanigans, but would welcome any insights for Yappi posters. Maybe this would be a good topic for new thread.
Agnew's issues went all the way back to when he was the governor of Maryland. He was taking kickbacks from construction contracts issued by the state. He used to amaze me every time he opened his mouth, hate speech directed at anyone who disagreed with him.
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  #39  
Old 05-07-17, 08:46 AM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleGuy View Post
Maybe, though Bill & Hillary Clinton are strong contenders. And, the last administration doesn't have a pristine record by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't know much about pre-seventies administrations' shenanigans, but would welcome any insights for Yappi posters. Maybe this would be a good topic for new thread.
...on the debate board.
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  #40  
Old 05-07-17, 09:08 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
This is the same argument made by some about most civil rights. Who needs the 4th Amendment? If you have nothing to hide, what's the concern about letting the police search you, search your house?
This response is completely irrelevant to the question I asked you. You stated free speech and right to assembly has been dramatically curtailed... I asked you to please show some examples where peaceful demonstrations that didn't harm or endanger anyone were shut down or denied.
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  #41  
Old 05-07-17, 09:17 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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St Louis post shooting

Baltimore post killing

Zimmerman post trial

These were all civil protests

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  #42  
Old 05-07-17, 09:46 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
This response is completely irrelevant to the question I asked you. You stated free speech and right to assembly has been dramatically curtailed... I asked you to please show some examples where peaceful demonstrations that didn't harm or endanger anyone were shut down or denied.
Read up a little bit on the restrictions now in place at political conventions. If you want to conduct a protest/demonstration, you are placed in a fenced in corral, far from the venue of the convention. Under these rules, no even has an opportunity exercise their first amendment rights.

So, in answer to your question, the "peaceful demonstrations that didn't harm or endanger anyone were shut down or denied" by the rules put in place.

Read what Mr. Alex Jones, from your end of the political spectrum, references on his web-site on the topic...

https://www.infowars.com/free-speech...l-conventions/

Last edited by CatAlum; 05-07-17 at 10:12 AM.
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  #43  
Old 05-07-17, 10:39 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
http://www.kent.edu/may-4-historical-accuracy

Kent State University's own accounting of the event says your accounting is pretty inaccurate. Only one kid was shot in the back and in fact they weren't running away when the shooting started... and only one kid was walking to class.
Good article.

I still do not care about whether the protests were right or wrong. I have a big problem with the military opening fire on unarmed college students.

My biggest concern in this thread is the terrible bumper post memorials left to those kids who died.
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  #44  
Old 05-07-17, 10:43 AM
my2sense my2sense is offline
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Then, as now, there were "professional" protestors bussed in to hot spots to generate media flash points and create controversy. They demean the efforts of those who sincerely want change, and in this case, added to the breaking point.
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  #45  
Old 05-07-17, 11:07 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Good article.

I still do not care about whether the protests were right or wrong. I have a big problem with the military opening fire on unarmed college students.

My biggest concern in this thread is the terrible bumper post memorials left to those kids who died.
Well, I agree the posts are pretty lame. IMO though, the only memorial there should be to the single girl who was walking to class and not involved. Who knows the level of involvement of the other three to be honest? Did one of them start the fire? Throw rocks and bottles at the cops? Bust windows downtown? The problem I have with that is a memorial to a rioter seems unfitting. After all... them being upset about is going into Cambodia is simply a political opinion. I think maybe quite a few people feel the same way or perhaps there'd be actual monuments to them?
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  #46  
Old 05-07-17, 11:33 AM
MontetheCarlo MontetheCarlo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Well, I agree the posts are pretty lame. IMO though, the only memorial there should be to the single girl who was walking to class and not involved. Who knows the level of involvement of the other three to be honest? Did one of them start the fire? Throw rocks and bottles at the cops? Bust windows downtown? The problem I have with that is a memorial to a rioter seems unfitting. After all... them being upset about is going into Cambodia is simply a political opinion. I think maybe quite a few people feel the same way or perhaps there'd be actual monuments to them?
It's all well documented. The one kid was ROTC and an Eagle Scout and taking cover.
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  #47  
Old 05-07-17, 11:38 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Well, I agree the posts are pretty lame. IMO though, the only memorial there should be to the single girl who was walking to class and not involved. Who knows the level of involvement of the other three to be honest? Did one of them start the fire? Throw rocks and bottles at the cops? Bust windows downtown? The problem I have with that is a memorial to a rioter seems unfitting. After all... them being upset about is going into Cambodia is simply a political opinion. I think maybe quite a few people feel the same way or perhaps there'd be actual monuments to them?
Those are all great questions. Especially the involvement of the other three. But we do have a process in this country to prove guilt. There is a reason governors are reluctant to call up the National Guard to restore order, especially with college protestors, since the Kent State shootings.
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  #48  
Old 05-07-17, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MontetheCarlo View Post
It's all well documented. The one kid was ROTC and an Eagle Scout and taking cover.
Like I said, who knows the involvement of all the kids shot(there were 9 others you know). So do the ones proven to be passing by get a memorial and the ones burning stuff down and assaulting cops don't?
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  #49  
Old 05-07-17, 12:39 PM
MontetheCarlo MontetheCarlo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Like I said, who knows the involvement of all the kids shot(there were 9 others you know). So do the ones proven to be passing by get a memorial and the ones burning stuff down and assaulting cops don't?
Don't care. Just trying to help you out with facts.
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  #50  
Old 05-07-17, 03:04 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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Yep, anyone who throws a rock or a bottle should be shot. We need more simple engagement rules. We can upgrade to automatic weapons on campuses.
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  #51  
Old 05-07-17, 03:23 PM
Uncle Ted Uncle Ted is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
Yep, anyone who throws a rock or a bottle should be shot. We need more simple engagement rules. We can upgrade to automatic weapons on campuses.
Yeah cops should see what is being thrown at them and then return fire with the same items.
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  #52  
Old 05-07-17, 03:48 PM
arizonawildcat arizonawildcat is offline
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I was in an Army Reserve infantry unit at the time, and we did considerable training in riot and crowd control. We could not believe that the Ohio guardmen had been given live ammunition.
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  #53  
Old 05-07-17, 04:48 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
Yep, anyone who throws a rock or a bottle should be shot. We need more simple engagement rules. We can upgrade to automatic weapons on campuses.
Sugar coat it all you want. Burning buildings down, assaulting cops and troops... for all you know there were threats made to the troops that day, maybe one of the troops thought he saw a weapon on them, maybe just heard what he or they thought was a shot or anything could have happened. I guess if the troops responded with batons and distributed wood shampoos and hosted a mace party you would have thought that was ok? I'm guessing not. When you're tearing up a town, burning buildings down and then assaulting the firemen while they try to put it out, assaulting law enforcement and then military troops... you kind of forfeit a lot of sympathy.
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  #54  
Old 05-07-17, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by arizonawildcat View Post
I was in an Army Reserve infantry unit at the time, and we did considerable training in riot and crowd control. We could not believe that the Ohio guardmen had been given live ammunition.
Kind of stupid to send in people with empty weapons. Why send them with weapons at all if they aren't loaded?
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  #55  
Old 05-07-17, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MontetheCarlo View Post
Don't care. Just trying to help you out with facts.
One kid out of 13 doesn't change the rules and facts for the rest of them. Nice try though.

Hey, it's rumored that not all of the 9/11 hijackers knew they were going to crash the plane. Some argue they thought they were just going to hijack them for ransom or to release Muslim prisoners. I guess we should erect memorials to those hijackers that were there, helped, but really didn't mean to kill anybody huh?
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  #56  
Old 05-07-17, 04:59 PM
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My complete thinking on the memorials being inadequate is this...

First, many question the memorials being there at all. So there's that. But since one or two of the 13 shot and one of the dead allegedly weren't involved in the rioting were injured or killed, many want them recognized. So, what to do? Erect big arse statues and plaques in honor of the dead? Then many people would be like "You're honoring rioters that were so out of control they were the reason for the troops in the first place". So if you go big, it looks like you're siding against the troops and in essence the US. But if you do nothing, then it looks like you discount the young people that maybe didn't deserve to die or even some would feel they were just misguided in their efforts. Maybe Kent State got it right with something as simple as the posts sectioning off where they fell. Simple, an acknowledgement but not an "in your face" to the troops who many feel were as much victims perhaps as the students in all this.
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  #57  
Old 05-07-17, 08:32 PM
Zunardo Zunardo is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
My complete thinking on the memorials being inadequate is this...

First, many question the memorials being there at all. So there's that. But since one or two of the 13 shot and one of the dead allegedly weren't involved in the rioting were injured or killed, many want them recognized. So, what to do? Erect big arse statues and plaques in honor of the dead? Then many people would be like "You're honoring rioters that were so out of control they were the reason for the troops in the first place". So if you go big, it looks like you're siding against the troops and in essence the US. But if you do nothing, then it looks like you discount the young people that maybe didn't deserve to die or even some would feel they were just misguided in their efforts. Maybe Kent State got it right with something as simple as the posts sectioning off where they fell. Simple, an acknowledgement but not an "in your face" to the troops who many feel were as much victims perhaps as the students in all this.
Very sensible and reasonable. Nice post.
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  #58  
Old 05-07-17, 08:35 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
...on the debate board.
Yes. Thanks for the helping hand.
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  #59  
Old 05-07-17, 10:02 PM
Gardens35 Gardens35 is offline
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Brian Williams reporting that he was a student there when it happened. Says he was a guardsman there too.
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  #60  
Old 05-07-17, 10:14 PM
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I was a junior in HS and visiting Kent State that day.

I heard the shots, smelled the tear gas, saw students running, and attended BGSU.
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