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  #31  
Old 03-26-17, 01:36 PM
Rabbit Rabbit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadXgtm View Post
If I was the Ref and Kremer comes on the floor starts flapping his lip after the intentional foul call, I tell him to be quiet and return to the bench. If he doesn't shut up right then and there and leave the floor immediately, I give him a big 'T'.
Wow, what a hard guy you are? Don't think Kremer is the first basketball coach to ever question a referee call!

Your team has a bow tied clown that goes off the rails against the officials at a torrid pace. Not to mention X hasn't beaten Moeller since 2007. I guess that explains your resentment.
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  #32  
Old 03-26-17, 02:48 PM
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MoeDude MoeDude is offline
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Originally Posted by jackson03 View Post
Per WHBC and Q92 broadcasts, Kremer ran up to the refs right after this and they wouldn't even speak to him. Whatever he wanted, the refs had no interest in talking to him at all. Maybe he spent his capital. They were pissed about something, that's for sure!

Still laughing about the "cost Moeller a championship" crap in here. How does a team that never led after the first quarter get robbed? Best case scenario for Moeller is if you take away the Young foul, you get to go to OT. 2.8 seconds left? C'mon. Jackson could have easily won it in the overtime period too. Fact is, a township school with a talent pool of 40,000 beat a private school with a talent pool of over a million. Too bad!
Congratulations to Jackson on their state title. They hung tough in a hard fought battle. As for this thread it's just more trash from jwuerth who is a reknown Moeller hater and is allowed to spew his hate any time he wants on Yappi. The man truly is a pathetic tool.
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  #33  
Old 03-26-17, 07:40 PM
troyboy73 troyboy73 is offline
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Well said MoeDude!
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  #34  
Old 03-27-17, 08:23 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Having viewed the play...

No doubt the foul was "intentional"...not physical or dirty, but definitely purposeful and the clear desire was to have a foul called. The interesting question is what caused the Moeller coach to think he could get away with it? Especially with refs he's not familiar with. Does he have a history of calling for that tactic and getting a common foul called by most/all refs?
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  #35  
Old 03-27-17, 08:35 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Am I following this correctly? Even with the intentional foul, this almost worked for Moeller as they were able to tie it after that?

Doesn't sound like it was dirty or a cheap shot...so what's the big deal?
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  #36  
Old 03-27-17, 08:42 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Am I following this correctly? Even with the intentional foul, this almost worked for Moeller as they were able to tie it after that?

Doesn't sound like it was dirty or a cheap shot...so what's the big deal?
I think people are implying the coach did not know the rules. That this would be a common shooting foul and not an intentional. That would be a rather drastic mistake in a state title game if true. But, one will never know if this is the case or not.
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  #37  
Old 03-27-17, 08:53 AM
jwuerth jwuerth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Having viewed the play...

No doubt the foul was "intentional"...not physical or dirty, but definitely purposeful and the clear desire was to have a foul called. The interesting question is what caused the Moeller coach to think he could get away with it? Especially with refs he's not familiar with. Does he have a history of calling for that tactic and getting a common foul called by most/all refs?
Read his quote, so lame. And yes, he gets away with a lot of crap in the GCL.

"They have a young man that we wanted to foul. We operate at 100 percent with what we understand the rules are. No hands. We bumped him, we bumped him. The referee wouldn’t call it. He bumped him again and he called it intentional. No hands. Our understanding of the rules is that should’ve been a foul and he was shooting a one-and-one and not an intentional. Big call in the game.”
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  #38  
Old 03-27-17, 08:57 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwuerth View Post
Read his quote, so lame. And yes, he gets away with a lot of crap in the GCL.

"They have a young man that we wanted to foul. We operate at 100 percent with what we understand the rules are. No hands. We bumped him, we bumped him. The referee wouldn’t call it. He bumped him again and he called it intentional. No hands. Our understanding of the rules is that should’ve been a foul and he was shooting a one-and-one and not an intentional. Big call in the game.”
I am not sure if there is a legal play you can make on a player not involved at all in the play to get a legal common foul in that situation. Maybe one of the many good refs we have on here can chime in and explain how you could get someone to the foul line late in the game that is far away from the ball. I am not sure thats possible in H.S. basketball.
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  #39  
Old 03-27-17, 09:04 AM
thePITman thePITman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwuerth View Post
Read his quote, so lame. And yes, he gets away with a lot of crap in the GCL.

"They have a young man that we wanted to foul. We operate at 100 percent with what we understand the rules are. No hands. We bumped him, we bumped him. The referee wouldn’t call it. He bumped him again and he called it intentional. No hands. Our understanding of the rules is that should’ve been a foul and he was shooting a one-and-one and not an intentional. Big call in the game.”
^^ Coach is delusional.
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  #40  
Old 03-27-17, 09:36 AM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Originally Posted by cincyfootball7 View Post
Says jwuerth, the biggest Moeller basketball hater on this forum
I thought that was me....

Free throws... If the Evil Empire makes their free throws it would not have come down to this.....
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  #41  
Old 03-27-17, 09:36 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
I am not sure if there is a legal play you can make on a player not involved at all in the play to get a legal common foul in that situation. Maybe one of the many good refs we have on here can chime in and explain how you could get someone to the foul line late in the game that is far away from the ball. I am not sure thats possible in H.S. basketball.
There are off ball fouls committed all the time that are simply common fouls. Those fouls involve holding, grabbing, bumping, or impeding the progress of an opponent that is making an attempt to free himself to make a cut, receive a pass or even to set a screen........

That said, the NFHS issued a Point of Emphasis on Intentional Fouls two years running in 2012-2013 & 2013-2014. (POE's remain even if not published) The wording of the POE contains the following.....

"Contact on an opponent that is clearly not in the play"

It also states.....

"that type of foul may be strategic by a team to stop the clock or create a situation that may be tactically done for the team taking action. The foul may be innocent in severity, but without any playing of the ball, it becomes an intentional act such as a player wrapping his or her arms around an opponent......"
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  #42  
Old 03-27-17, 09:56 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwuerth View Post
Read his quote, so lame. And yes, he gets away with a lot of crap in the GCL.

"They have a young man that we wanted to foul. We operate at 100 percent with what we understand the rules are. No hands. We bumped him, we bumped him. The referee wouldn’t call it. He bumped him again and he called it intentional. No hands. Our understanding of the rules is that should’ve been a foul and he was shooting a one-and-one and not an intentional. Big call in the game.”
Looks like some hubris to me. Longtime coach of a great program. Presumes he can get away with this, a gray area...you know, sort of...they wouldn't dare call it intentional...they know that I know my rules.

And, no, it didn't decide the game. Just interesting...
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  #43  
Old 03-27-17, 10:03 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
There are off ball fouls committed all the time that are simply common fouls. Those fouls involve holding, grabbing, bumping, or impeding the progress of an opponent that is making an attempt to free himself to make a cut, receive a pass or even to set a screen........

That said, the NFHS issued a Point of Emphasis on Intentional Fouls two years running in 2012-2013 & 2013-2014. (POE's remain even if not published) The wording of the POE contains the following.....

"Contact on an opponent that is clearly not in the play"

It also states.....

"that type of foul may be strategic by a team to stop the clock or create a situation that may be tactically done for the team taking action. The foul may be innocent in severity, but without any playing of the ball, it becomes an intentional act such as a player wrapping his or her arms around an opponent......"
Thank you. So if I understand correctly, there is NO scenario you can foul someone in HS basketball that is not directly involved on the ball for the benefit of creating an advantage (sending team leading to the foul line). Your only option is force the ball to the kid, or even force the ball handling over to the kid you want. This would setup some "on ball" foul scenarios, even if the kid does not have it. Pick and roll type of grab or something. Honestly, I think this play gets missed a lot in Ohio. I have seen many fouls occur away/off ball that seem intentional to stop clock.

So it seems to be the OP was correct (regardless to what bias may be in play), the HC did not understand the rule book. Unless someone can explain how giving up points and the ball is a good scenario. Just brainstorming, (as this guy track record is quite impressive), is x seconds worth some points and a SOB? Does he feel more confident that he can get a steal in a SOB situation and get a missed free-throw? That sounds ridiculous.

Or is it a just complete wiff on the understanding of the rule?

Allsport, with the visibility on this will it be discussed in the offseason for further clarity/updates from Ohio?
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  #44  
Old 03-27-17, 10:09 AM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
There are off ball fouls committed all the time that are simply common fouls. Those fouls involve holding, grabbing, bumping, or impeding the progress of an opponent that is making an attempt to free himself to make a cut, receive a pass or even to set a screen........

That said, the NFHS issued a Point of Emphasis on Intentional Fouls two years running in 2012-2013 & 2013-2014. (POE's remain even if not published) The wording of the POE contains the following.....

"Contact on an opponent that is clearly not in the play"

It also states.....

"that type of foul may be strategic by a team to stop the clock or create a situation that may be tactically done for the team taking action. The foul may be innocent in severity, but without any playing of the ball, it becomes an intentional act such as a player wrapping his or her arms around an opponent......"
How about we commend the ref on having the wherewithal and the onions to call that foul @ that point in a state title game. We all bury the refs from time-to-time, but this guy called it as instructed..... excellent.. the charge at about the same time is a head scratcher, in the NBA these off the ball intentional fouls, or piggybacking (outlawed in 2015-16) were not allowed or executed in the last 2 mins.
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  #45  
Old 03-27-17, 10:10 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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The counterpoint is- how can they say for certain that the player fouled was not in play? It was on an inbound- how many "baseball" passes have we seen in the waning minutes of a game? Not saying the official wasn't within the rules, just one that ,as many are, subject to interpretation and they gave the most extreme penalty which was highly unusual according to even the sports reporters familiar with the rule. And yes, the original poster is about as biased against Moeller as it gets.
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  #46  
Old 03-27-17, 10:21 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
The counterpoint is- how can they say for certain that the player fouled was not in play? It was on an inbound- how many "baseball" passes have we seen in the waning minutes of a game? Not saying the official wasn't within the rules, just one that ,as many are, subject to interpretation and they gave the most extreme penalty which was highly unusual according to even the sports reporters familiar with the rule. And yes, the original poster is about as biased against Moeller as it gets.
I did not see the play. I read previously that said the kid was standing in the opposite half court than the ball talking to his coach. That would be about as off-ball as you can get.
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  #47  
Old 03-27-17, 10:21 AM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
The counterpoint is- how can they say for certain that the player fouled was not in play? It was on an inbound- how many "baseball" passes have we seen in the waning minutes of a game? Not saying the official wasn't within the rules, just one that ,as many are, subject to interpretation and they gave the most extreme penalty which was highly unusual according to even the sports reporters familiar with the rule. And yes, the original poster is about as biased against Moeller as it gets.
That's not true. Jackson inbounded the ball at the other end of the court with 1:08 left after a Moeller foul shot. Jackson brought the ball up the court and was holding the ball just over the mid-court line when the intentional foul call was made with 50 seconds left.
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  #48  
Old 03-27-17, 10:21 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
How about we commend the ref on having the wherewithal and the onions to call that foul @ that point in a state title game. We all bury the refs from time-to-time, but this guy called it as instructed..... excellent.. the charge at about the same time is a head scratcher, in the NBA these off the ball intentional fouls, or piggybacking (outlawed in 2015-16) were not allowed or executed in the last 2 mins.
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  #49  
Old 03-27-17, 10:26 AM
jwuerth jwuerth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
The counterpoint is- how can they say for certain that the player fouled was not in play? It was on an inbound- how many "baseball" passes have we seen in the waning minutes of a game? Not saying the official wasn't within the rules, just one that ,as many are, subject to interpretation and they gave the most extreme penalty which was highly unusual according to even the sports reporters familiar with the rule. And yes, the original poster is about as biased against Moeller as it gets.
It was not on an inbound play. Their guard had the ball up near mid-court and Hill was down on baseline corner in front of the Jackson bench. He was just standing there.

And Kimble, there was no phantom charge, there was an illegal off the ball screen that was called.
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  #50  
Old 03-27-17, 10:27 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
The counterpoint is- how can they say for certain that the player fouled was not in play?
Experience


And according to the comments made by the coach, the official was right.
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  #51  
Old 03-27-17, 10:47 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Experience


And according to the comments made by the coach, the official was right.
My apologies- I was going on memory, didn't look up the play- I guess my point was if the player was on the court how can anyone say for certain that he is he truly not "in play". It is a judgement call, could be based on experience, could be based on something else. Perhaps it was the correct judgement- but it was open to interpretation was all I was saying. The refs interetation is the only one that matters in a game- calculated gamble didn't pay off.
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  #52  
Old 03-27-17, 10:52 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
My apologies- I was going on memory, didn't look up the play- I guess my point was if the player was on the court how can anyone say for certain that he is he truly not "in play". It is a judgement call, could be based on experience, could be based on something else. Perhaps it was the correct judgement- but it was open to interpretation was all I was saying. The refs interetation is the only one that matters in a game- calculated gamble didn't pay off.
Basketball reffing is pretty subjective. This was an intentional foul as those words are commonly understood. The only question is whether the rules (and the ref in this instance) chooses to proceed and call an intentional foul. Since I hate this tactic, I'm glad he made the call.
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  #53  
Old 03-27-17, 11:15 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Basketball reffing is pretty subjective. This was an intentional foul as those words are commonly understood. The only question is whether the rules (and the ref in this instance) chooses to proceed and call an intentional foul. Since I hate this tactic, I'm glad he made the call.
I understand that and don't disagree, but it is a tactic not so different from on ball fouling at the end of a game. Doesn't make the coach or player using it a bad person as some have suggested.
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  #54  
Old 03-27-17, 11:15 AM
english1 english1 is offline
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jwuerth,
If that same foul had occurred on the block at any point or time in the game, it might not have even been called, unless the offensive player pushed back and then it would have been an offensive foul. You'll have to show me in the rule book where time, score, and place dictate whether a foul is intentional or not.
Your hatred of a school has blinded you to the spirit of the rules!! Enough said.
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  #55  
Old 03-27-17, 11:23 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
I understand that and don't disagree, but it is a tactic not so different from on ball fouling at the end of a game. Doesn't make the coach or player using it a bad person as some have suggested.
I don't think the coach is a bad person, but I don't agree that it's akin to on-ball fouling. When you think about how you want a sporting activity to be contested, and you consider rules, you don't want to allow Moeller, in this instance, to go find the other team's worst free throw shooter and wrestle him to the ground in order to get the ball back. Two shots and the ball makes sense to me.
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  #56  
Old 03-27-17, 11:40 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
I don't think the coach is a bad person, but I don't agree that it's akin to on-ball fouling. When you think about how you want a sporting activity to be contested, and you consider rules, you don't want to allow Moeller, in this instance, to go find the other team's worst free throw shooter and wrestle him to the ground in order to get the ball back. Two shots and the ball makes sense to me.
You did not speak ill of player or coach but plenty of others have- including calling then Moeller player a punk on the other thread. There was no wrestling to the ground and it would have only been one bump if it had been called the first time- the ref was standing right there and waited until the 3rd bump before calling it. Was it not an intentional fouls the first bump? Didn't the ref by waiting after the initial and subsequent bumps before calling then foul actually run the risk of the situation escalating? It is akin to on-bal fouling in that both are done for the same reason and both are fouls- that was my point, not to say they are the same thing, wasn't trying to argue they should be treated the same- but that they are both tactics used.
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  #57  
Old 03-27-17, 11:44 AM
jwuerth jwuerth is offline
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Originally Posted by english1 View Post
jwuerth,
If that same foul had occurred on the block at any point or time in the game, it might not have even been called, unless the offensive player pushed back and then it would have been an offensive foul. You'll have to show me in the rule book where time, score, and place dictate whether a foul is intentional or not.
Your hatred of a school has blinded you to the spirit of the rules!! Enough said.
Good lord that is a humorous post. You are right about one thing, the rules don't dictate time or score but it does dictate intentional or not and place is a huge part of it. Place has to be making a play on the ball. And in the spirit of the rule they should call the intentionals more. There would be so much less clutching and grabbing away from ball. That would really hurt the GCL south schools. As would a shot clock, which they should have as well.
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  #58  
Old 03-27-17, 11:49 AM
jwuerth jwuerth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
You did not speak ill of player or coach but plenty of others have- including calling then Moeller player a punk on the other thread. There was no wrestling to the ground and it would have only been one bump if it had been called the first time- the ref was standing right there and waited until the 3rd bump before calling it. Was it not an intentional fouls the first bump? Didn't the ref by waiting after the initial and subsequent bumps before calling then foul actually run the risk of the situation escalating? It is akin to on-bal fouling in that both are done for the same reason and both are fouls- that was my point, not to say they are the same thing, wasn't trying to argue they should be treated the same- but that they are both tactics used.
So I guess you were also not aware that the ref really didn't want to call the intentional. He warned the kid after the first two bumps because he didn't want to have to make the intentional foul call at such a crucial part of the game. That is fantastic officiating.
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  #59  
Old 03-27-17, 11:56 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
You did not speak ill of player or coach but plenty of others have- including calling then Moeller player a punk on the other thread. There was no wrestling to the ground and it would have only been one bump if it had been called the first time- the ref was standing right there and waited until the 3rd bump before calling it. Was it not an intentional fouls the first bump? Didn't the ref by waiting after the initial and subsequent bumps before calling then foul actually run the risk of the situation escalating? It is akin to on-bal fouling in that both are done for the same reason and both are fouls- that was my point, not to say they are the same thing, wasn't trying to argue they should be treated the same- but that they are both tactics used.
What the official did right there was execute the method of Preventative Officiating. Given the circumstances of the game, (time remaining, score, possession, possession arrow, ball location, etc...) he knew what the opponent was trying to do and he also knew the severity of the penalty. He tried to talk him out of an Intentional Foul. (he barked at him to stop) When he didn't stop, he did what was required by the rule and the Point of Emphasis covering this situation.

Had he sensed that the player being bumped was ready to retaliate on the first bump, he would have jumped all over the whistle and called the Intentional Foul right then and there.

It's a method of officiating that is utilized constantly throughout a game. Sometimes everyone sees it. Sometimes it's a quiet word between official and player and sometimes it's communicated through a captain, assistant coach, or head coach.

Training and experience pays off.
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  #60  
Old 03-27-17, 12:07 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
You did not speak ill of player or coach but plenty of others have- including calling then Moeller player a punk on the other thread. There was no wrestling to the ground and it would have only been one bump if it had been called the first time- the ref was standing right there and waited until the 3rd bump before calling it. Was it not an intentional fouls the first bump? Didn't the ref by waiting after the initial and subsequent bumps before calling then foul actually run the risk of the situation escalating? It is akin to on-bal fouling in that both are done for the same reason and both are fouls- that was my point, not to say they are the same thing, wasn't trying to argue they should be treated the same- but that they are both tactics used.
I know he didn't wrestle him to the ground. It was analogy. As I have mentioned, the severity of the activity isn't really the point, is it?

I agree with AllSports. I think it's great when a basketball ref (when done properly), gives a rule violator a chance to correct himself before he blows the whistle. This kid was clearly under orders from the coach and he chose (probably wisely ), to ignore the ref's warning.
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