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  #121  
Old 04-24-17, 01:48 PM
tndog tndog is offline
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Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
Well, the SVSM situation with Lebron, if you are accurate (I don't know, and don't really care; I'll assume you are right) wouldn't affect the competitive balance approach the OHSAA is taking. When that team congregated wouldn't have been a factor, but where they came from (in relation to the public school boundaries SVSM is in) is what would have mattered.

And this is why I say that it doesn't matter how MANY transfers you get, only the quality of those transfers and the quality of the team they are transferring to. Lebron could have transferred to the worst team in the state, and they would have become final four contenders. Lol.

I agree with the idea that as long as HS coaches/admins aren't orchestrating who plays where, offering incentives, etc. that it's fine for players and parents to be behind it. IOW, if the 5 best players in Cle decide they want to play for VASJ, then more power to them. However, I want VASJ to play for a DI state championship in that case, not a DIII or IV championship. That's all I'm saying.

"Heavy racial overtones" is a loaded phrase, but I understand why you think that. The best players in an urban area tend to be black kids, and so a lot of these competitive balance problems people cite tend to involve those kinds of kids. However, this is why I have cited the transfer of a 6-7 white kid to a roster of already talented and big white kids at my rural local public school 6 years ago as a clear example of how the quality of one player transferring affects competitive balance. That school won 2 DIV state championships with that one transfer. And so, this is why I would assert that this isn't racial, with me at least, even tho I see how one could assume that.

I would suggest we take urban vs. rural, race, private vs. public, and all of that out of the discussion - and asked one simple question. What is the cause of competitive imbalance? The answer is very talented transfers who go to a smaller enrollment school, and create a situation where the talent level of that team is much higher than the division the school is assigned based on enrollment. If I am correct on that, then the solution to competitive imbalance has to be directed at each major aspect of the problem. Anything that introduces any other factor into it is just a distraction.

Spot on!
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  #122  
Old 04-25-17, 07:39 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
take urban vs. rural, race, private vs. public, and all of that out of the discussion - and asked one simple question. What is the cause of competitive imbalance? The answer is very talented transfers who go to a smaller enrollment school, and create a situation where the talent level of that team is much higher than the division the school is assigned based on enrollment.
This
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  #123  
Old 04-25-17, 12:27 PM
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FormerWildcat FormerWildcat is offline
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Originally Posted by sportsauthority101 View Post
Westerville South proves talent doesn't win, they were a mess. Their Coach couldn't get them to play together and they had no cohesiveness.
That's an odd example to cite, considering they won the state championship last year.

http://www.thisweeknews.com/article/...NEWS/303209847

Perhaps they just didn't have as much talent this year as last?
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  #124  
Old 04-25-17, 01:13 PM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
Well, the SVSM situation with Lebron, if you are accurate (I don't know, and don't really care; I'll assume you are right) wouldn't affect the competitive balance approach the OHSAA is taking. When that team congregated wouldn't have been a factor, but where they came from (in relation to the public school boundaries SVSM is in) is what would have mattered.

And this is why I say that it doesn't matter how MANY transfers you get, only the quality of those transfers and the quality of the team they are transferring to. Lebron could have transferred to the worst team in the state, and they would have become final four contenders. Lol.

I agree with the idea that as long as HS coaches/admins aren't orchestrating who plays where, offering incentives, etc. that it's fine for players and parents to be behind it. IOW, if the 5 best players in Cle decide they want to play for VASJ, then more power to them. However, I want VASJ to play for a DI state championship in that case, not a DIII or IV championship. That's all I'm saying.

"Heavy racial overtones" is a loaded phrase, but I understand why you think that. The best players in an urban area tend to be black kids, and so a lot of these competitive balance problems people cite tend to involve those kinds of kids. However, this is why I have cited the transfer of a 6-7 white kid to a roster of already talented and big white kids at my rural local public school 6 years ago as a clear example of how the quality of one player transferring affects competitive balance. That school won 2 DIV state championships with that one transfer. And so, this is why I would assert that this isn't racial, with me at least, even tho I see how one could assume that.

I would suggest we take urban vs. rural, race, private vs. public, and all of that out of the discussion - and asked one simple question. What is the cause of competitive imbalance? The answer is very talented transfers who go to a smaller enrollment school, and create a situation where the talent level of that team is much higher than the division the school is assigned based on enrollment. If I am correct on that, then the solution to competitive imbalance has to be directed at each major aspect of the problem. Anything that introduces any other factor into it is just a distraction.
It would have mattered since they joined forces after the 7th grade at St. V-M, and another starter came in after the 9th grade.

I thought divisional assignments were based on enrollment and not a reflection of the talent? Granted, that is the basis for the divisions being assigned as they are.

To eliminate any or all of the socio-economic factors from the equation is impossible, but what teams are people up in arms about? How do their rosters look? It is completely impossible to take something that is decided by the collective ability of the talent of the rosters and force each team to have an equal opportunity to win without having 50 or 100 divisions. There are teams that will always be near the top and unfortunately those that will always be near the bottom. With only 4 divisions there isn't enough divisions to separate the great teams from the really good.

Since I'm well aware of the 6'7" white kid who transferred that you referenced, the school who received him should be forced to change divisions for 1 student-athlete, who wasn't recruited, his family made transportation arrangements, and did every necessary thing to attend the school? He didn't feel that his needs were going to be able to be met at the first school so he enrolled in one that could better serve his needs, and whether that's sports or any other extracurricular or an academic class that's ok with me. Anytime an entity starts legislating individual decisions that's not good.

This can go on and on forever and likely will. The CBP is a bit of overkill in non-football sports, but it'll be fine and there will always be separation between exceptional teams and the rest, which is fine.
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  #125  
Old 04-26-17, 07:46 AM
tmajic tmajic is offline
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Bo, there is no entity that is legislating anything about individual decisions in your account. All IVCGuy is saying is that if the individuals do decide to create an AAU buddy team at a local high school then there would be ramifications (the school would have to play up). No one is taking the kids right to play or go to school where he wishes. But, the decision would have consequences.
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  #126  
Old 04-26-17, 11:43 AM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmajic View Post
Bo, there is no entity that is legislating anything about individual decisions in your account. All IVCGuy is saying is that if the individuals do decide to create an AAU buddy team at a local high school then there would be ramifications (the school would have to play up). No one is taking the kids right to play or go to school where he wishes. But, the decision would have consequences.
1 transfer creates an "AAU Buddy Team"? Or is it 1 transfer of a certain level? Just prepare your team the best you can and face whoever you draw in the tourney? In the situation IVCGuy gave the school that received a transfer should be reassigned because the school the kid left from couldn't get its act together and address the situation within the program? In this case, the OHSAA would be punitively punishing a school for an individual situation? A transfer does not signify impropriety or unlimited resources (such as unending depth on the bball team), it's to the point that any loss in the postseason is met with scurrying to a website to complain of the inherent advantages the other teams have.
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  #127  
Old 04-28-17, 10:07 AM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Tmajic, you said in 4 sentences what it took paragraphs for me. It's no coincidence my advanced English teacher used to write in red ink all over my papers, "Too Wordy". Lol.

Bo, yeah, you aren't getting it. You keep steering the conversation away from the cause of competitive balance problems, and conflating that cause with other issues - that have varying degrees of validity - but do not, all put together, equate to what happens when D1 level talent is accrued at a lower enrollment school.

That doesn't mean that the issues you are diverting to aren't important. They are, and we should work on them, but if we addressed every one of those, you would still have competitive imbalance problems because those issues are not at the core of it.

And one final point: please don't characterize the idea of moving a team to D1 from D4 after they receive the starting line up of an elite AAU team as "punishment". It's silly. If you have a team like that, forcing you to play teams of similar talent is not punishment. It is simply fair/fairer competition.
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  #128  
Old 05-03-17, 12:27 PM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
Tmajic, you said in 4 sentences what it took paragraphs for me. It's no coincidence my advanced English teacher used to write in red ink all over my papers, "Too Wordy". Lol.

Bo, yeah, you aren't getting it. You keep steering the conversation away from the cause of competitive balance problems, and conflating that cause with other issues - that have varying degrees of validity - but do not, all put together, equate to what happens when D1 level talent is accrued at a lower enrollment school.

That doesn't mean that the issues you are diverting to aren't important. They are, and we should work on them, but if we addressed every one of those, you would still have competitive imbalance problems because those issues are not at the core of it.

And one final point: please don't characterize the idea of moving a team to D1 from D4 after they receive the starting line up of an elite AAU team as "punishment". It's silly. If you have a team like that, forcing you to play teams of similar talent is not punishment. It is simply fair/fairer competition.
The construction or assembly or any other word you can use for how these teams come together certainly comes down to race, didn't you read the newspaper article that was the highlight of the tournament? The undertones weren't racial? The dots aren't very hard to connect and that's not debatable.

I'm neither a fan of Lutheran East or Villa Angela-St. Joseph so I really don't have a personal rooting interest for either of those teams. I think my rooting interest is in the sports themselves. The last thing that I think sports want to teach is that when an opponent is too powerful, appeal to have them removed. Where else in life does that fit? Also, since the 4 Divisions are usually pretty proportionate, for every team that leaves, one will drop so a team that drops will get the "they should be in a higher division" attached and then what?

I really don't care how any of these teams are assembled, but I do like that there is a system in place to crown a champion, and as long as there is a consistency among how teams are placed, I really won't have a problem.

Education, like every other industry, is a business and is competitive, since there are a finite amount of students in Ohio, schools are always competing with neighboring schools to have those students enrolled. That's not limited to public schools and private schools, now with charter and virtual schools, that competition is fierce. Again, these kids all have options and many more than ever, how would changing the landscape of a school justify a 3, 5, or 10 year run of excellent athletics? Changing a school's divisional assignment based on current year or very recent history would do that.
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  #129  
Old 05-03-17, 05:30 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is online now
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To mention VASJ and East in the same sentence is a travesty. East was made up of several transfers. VASJ is made up of neighborhood kids who attended the school as freshman. VASJ is not a transfer destination.
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  #130  
Old 05-08-17, 10:57 AM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
To mention VASJ and East in the same sentence is a travesty. East was made up of several transfers. VASJ is made up of neighborhood kids who attended the school as freshman. VASJ is not a transfer destination.
They're viewed as 1 and the same.
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  #131  
Old 05-08-17, 12:24 PM
CCA Fan CCA Fan is offline
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Viewed as same by who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
They're viewed as 1 and the same.
By ignorant people? Simply look at the rosters between LE this year and last. Do the same for VASJ. VASJ doesn't have 6 new transfers, 4 of which are starters like LE had this year.

Do I blame LE or the players who wanted to go there? Certainly not. Congratulations, that was a very good D4 team. You cannot put LE and VASJ in the same basket. VASJ has discipline, solid academics, and a basketball program that develops players.
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  #132  
Old 05-10-17, 12:43 PM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Originally Posted by CCA Fan View Post
By ignorant people? Simply look at the rosters between LE this year and last. Do the same for VASJ. VASJ doesn't have 6 new transfers, 4 of which are starters like LE had this year.

Do I blame LE or the players who wanted to go there? Certainly not. Congratulations, that was a very good D4 team. You cannot put LE and VASJ in the same basket. VASJ has discipline, solid academics, and a basketball program that develops players.
This board and all "separatists"
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