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  #1  
Old 12-27-18, 03:20 PM
OVTC OVTC is offline
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2018 State Meet based on dual meets - Division I Boys, Outdoor

1.Pickering Central 105
Beavercreek 32

2.Centerville 77.33
Hill. Davidson 59.66

3. Springfield 75
Withrow 62

4. Gah. Lincoln 103
St. Edwards 33

5. Wadsworth 110.5
Lakota East 26.5

6. Olen. Orange 75.5
Solon 61.5

7. Whitmer 81
Dub. Coffman 56

8. St. Ignatius 85.6
Big Walnut 51.4

9. Pickerington North 101.5
Rocky River 35.5

10. GlenOak 86.66
Bedford 50.33

Second Round
1. Pickerington Central 98
GlenOak 39

2. Centerville 77
Pickerington North 60

3. St. Ignatius 87.66
Springfield 49.33

4. Gah. Lincoln 75
Whitmer 62

5. Olen. Orange 88.5
Wadsworth 48.5

Third Round
Pickerington Central xxx

1. Gah. Lincoln 74
Centerville 63

2. St. Ignatius 88.33
Olen. Orange 48.66

Fourth Round
1. St. Ignatius 72
Gah. Lincoln 65

Final
1. Pickerington Central 80
St. Ignatius 57
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  #2  
Old 12-28-18, 03:08 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I don't even understand what any of that means. How do you even arrive at that?
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  #3  
Old 12-30-18, 03:39 PM
OVTC OVTC is offline
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In current track and field practice probably 100% of meets contain 10, 15, or 20 different teams all in one meet. You end up with a team that scores the most points. In past years - maybe 40 years ago - teams had "dual meets". A dual meet is when two teams have a meet and the scoring is 5, 3, 1 and you come out with one of the teams being the victor. So what I have done is collected 20 teams based on the 2018 state meet and I have seeded them in an order of 1 through 20. This is similar to what is done in basketball. So, #1 seed plays #20 seed. #2 seed plays #19 seed etc. So, you end up with 10 competitions, 20 teams with 10 winners. In round 2 you do a similar thing - match the best with the worst team etc. but now you have only 10 teams so five meets and five winners. In round 3 you only have five teams left so the best team gets a "bye". You play it down until you have two teams left. In this case the team from Columbus and St. Ignatius and the Columbus team won so they would be the state champs. Now if you go back to the actual state meet the Columbus team actually won by going back to the using the system where individual athletes qualify and the score was tallied by individuals from a dominant team. So, what is interesting about this system is that in a dual meet, both teams have entrance in 17 different events. So, it's based on a whole team's ability, not just several individuals. Hope that is sufficient explanation to your question.
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Old 01-02-19, 01:42 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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You do not have enough data to come up with dual meet scores. A team we put out there for a dual meet is vastly different from what we put out there for a championship meet. What we do at the District meet is also different than what we do at Regional and State as far as what we let the kids do. Our top dogs may not go for first place marks at District or Regional based on their work load. Where other kids might be encouraged to put more out there. I have held pole vaulters back if they have already qualified and had to go long jump.

A dual meet can be won by 4 athletes. How we would use athletes in a dual is much different than in a championship. Just throwing numbers out there means nothing. 50% of our league championship is based on our dual meet record, so I'm aware of what dual meets mean. Dual meets often do not come down to the best athletes, but being able to get someone to high jump 5'-8" or long jump 13'-6". Then at the league meet, those kids aren't even on the squad.
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  #5  
Old 01-02-19, 10:22 PM
needforspeed needforspeed is offline
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State Dual Meet Championship

What OVTC is advocating is two ways to win a state title in track & field.
1. The traditional method of District, Regional, and State.
2. A dual meet format similar to how it's done in wrestling.

Let's do it. It can be done.
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  #6  
Old 01-03-19, 12:52 AM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed View Post
What OVTC is advocating is two ways to win a state title in track & field.
1. The traditional method of District, Regional, and State.
2. A dual meet format similar to how it's done in wrestling.

Let's do it. It can be done.
I've actually beaten you both to that idea by at least a year. As they say, great minds think like mine. Just kidding...

Anyway, these are the biggest issues/stumbling blocks I can see:

-Track cant really extend much past mid June, otherwise that begins to conflict with conditioning for cross country and football and soccer.

-Track meet season also cant really start prior to the end of March given Ohio weather.

-there are roughly 230 ish teams in each division, so doing a full on championship with every team would require 8 rounds. 1 round a week is out of the question. 2 rounds a week maybe, but this brings us to the next issue.

-This dual meet championship would have to run in tandem with the traditional state championship, for the most part. There isn't many weeks between the end of march and district week. This complicates matters, because you cant really have 2 dual meets, plus a district prelim AND district final meet all in 1 week.

All in all, there are a number of different parameters that would make this proposal exceedingly difficult. With that being said, there are a couple different ways I could see potentially working.

1. All teams can participate in this dual meet championship. During district week, the first round would be run on perhaps a Monday, and the district meet would run on the Wednesday/Friday, or Thursday/Saturday format as normal. Second round would be run on Monday of regional week, with the regional meets being conducted as normal. round 3 would be run on Monday of state week. After state week, the remaining 5 rounds would be run twice a week, with the state dual meet state championship being run probably around June 20th-25th. The advantages to this are the earlier rounds are the ones coinciding with the state championship, so the elite athletes may not be needed so heavily for a team to win...the elite can continue to focus on individual gains. Disadvantages, this extends the season pretty far into June, also, how would seeding be determined?

2. Alternatively, what could be done, is have only the top 4 placing teams from each district championship qualify. I doubt that a team that is incapable of placing top for at districts is capable of winning a dual meet state championship anyways. 1st vs 4th, 2nd vs 3rd. That would leave us with 16 teams from each region, or 64 from the entire state, in each division. That would only require 6 rounds then. You could run the 1st round the Monday of regional week, the 2nd round the Monday of state week, then the remaining 4 the next couple weeks. That takes care of seeding. And leaves us with fewer rounds to worry about.

I personally think the 2nd proposal is probably the more feasible of the two.
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  #7  
Old 01-03-19, 12:52 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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I don’t think that psychodad was commenting one way or another dual meets being good or bad. He was saying that OVTC does not have enough data to score the teams from the state meet in dual meet style because the way you use athletes in a dual meet is very different from how you use athletes in the state tournament. And is very dependent on who the opponent is.
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  #8  
Old 01-03-19, 10:43 AM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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So, if you are a Division 2 athlete, you are going to race Thurs and Sat at District, then Mon, Thurs, Sat of Regional week, then Mon, Fri, Sat of State Week?????????? Sounds like a lot of racing and not a lot of training as those Mondays throw off your whole week of training.
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  #9  
Old 01-03-19, 11:12 AM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoventryTrackXCguy View Post
I've actually beaten you both to that idea by at least a year. As they say, great minds think like mine. Just kidding...

Anyway, these are the biggest issues/stumbling blocks I can see:

-Track cant really extend much past mid June, otherwise that begins to conflict with conditioning for cross country and football and soccer.

-Track meet season also cant really start prior to the end of March given Ohio weather.

-there are roughly 230 ish teams in each division, so doing a full on championship with every team would require 8 rounds. 1 round a week is out of the question. 2 rounds a week maybe, but this brings us to the next issue.

-This dual meet championship would have to run in tandem with the traditional state championship, for the most part. There isn't many weeks between the end of march and district week. This complicates matters, because you cant really have 2 dual meets, plus a district prelim AND district final meet all in 1 week.

All in all, there are a number of different parameters that would make this proposal exceedingly difficult. With that being said, there are a couple different ways I could see potentially working.

1. All teams can participate in this dual meet championship. During district week, the first round would be run on perhaps a Monday, and the district meet would run on the Wednesday/Friday, or Thursday/Saturday format as normal. Second round would be run on Monday of regional week, with the regional meets being conducted as normal. round 3 would be run on Monday of state week. After state week, the remaining 5 rounds would be run twice a week, with the state dual meet state championship being run probably around June 20th-25th. The advantages to this are the earlier rounds are the ones coinciding with the state championship, so the elite athletes may not be needed so heavily for a team to win...the elite can continue to focus on individual gains. Disadvantages, this extends the season pretty far into June, also, how would seeding be determined?

2. Alternatively, what could be done, is have only the top 4 placing teams from each district championship qualify. I doubt that a team that is incapable of placing top for at districts is capable of winning a dual meet state championship anyways. 1st vs 4th, 2nd vs 3rd. That would leave us with 16 teams from each region, or 64 from the entire state, in each division. That would only require 6 rounds then. You could run the 1st round the Monday of regional week, the 2nd round the Monday of state week, then the remaining 4 the next couple weeks. That takes care of seeding. And leaves us with fewer rounds to worry about.

I personally think the 2nd proposal is probably the more feasible of the two.
I'm not saying I'm for or against having a team dual tournament, but the only way to make it work is to do like the state tennis coaches' association does with its team tournament. In tennis, you declare your team's entry into the team tournament about a month before the regular season begins. They play team tournament matches throughout the regular season. There is a date by which the teams have to complete that round's match, so there is some built-in flexibility in scheduling the tournament matches, so that they have less chance of disrupting the matches they're already scheduled, and so that they can work around weather-related issues (tennis can be worse than baseball and softball with rain-outs). The state finals and possibly also the semifinals are held after the OHSAA individual tournament is completed.

It might be even more manageable if you allow schools to "opt out" of the dual tournament as is allowed for the wrestling team duals tournament. That would likely reduce the field by a considerable amount, possibly even cutting a round. I wouldn't worry about seeding. Just set up districts and regionals like we have now with the individual tournament and do a random draw. If the 2 best teams are in the same geographic area and draw each other in the first round, so be it.
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  #10  
Old 01-03-19, 11:45 AM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatornation View Post
So, if you are a Division 2 athlete, you are going to race Thurs and Sat at District, then Mon, Thurs, Sat of Regional week, then Mon, Fri, Sat of State Week?????????? Sounds like a lot of racing and not a lot of training as those Mondays throw off your whole week of training.
Well, given the nature of dual meets sometimes, not all top athletes may be needed to necessarily compete at 100% in every event, especially in some of the more mismatch duals one is likely to find in the first couple of rounds. In a hypothetical matchup between say, Louisville and Massillon, for instance, Louisville could probably get away with running second stringers for their distance events.
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  #11  
Old 01-03-19, 12:04 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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The way to do this to shorten up the time it takes to do a dual meet championship is have the first 2 to 4 rounds have four team compete at same locations. Then score the two dual meets and then re-score the two winning teams. Each team enters 4 in each event so no more than 16 kids in an event. Each team has 2 kids in each heat of the 400 and lower. Not ideal but big time saver. Start in middle of April and have championship the first Saturday of May before conference meets.
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  #12  
Old 01-05-19, 05:58 PM
elkstrack&field elkstrack&field is offline
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The Minnesota Coaches association has this type of championship and it would be very easy to copy plus a great way to showcase programs from top to bottom. They call it the "True Team Series" and it's on their coaches web site. It seems like a great opportunity for someone to step in and organize a team State championship and claim it as their mid season showcase, much like wrestling has done. If school would agree to host the qualifying meets then it would be pretty easy to put together as a mid week meet. I like the idea of more opportunities for kids to compete and count towards championships!
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  #13  
Old 01-06-19, 10:29 AM
OVTC OVTC is offline
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Determing a true Track & Field State Team Champ

State Meet Team Champion

Bob Roncker and Don Connolly put this scenario together 45 years ago.

From each District Meet you score every individual on every team. If 12 teams score 24 places with 1st place 24 points, etc. In running events the top 8 places would be the running final and places 9-24 would be prelim times in order even if some of the 9-24 prelim times are faster than some times in the final.

The top 2 teams under this system would advance to Regionals with two team members per event brought forward to Regionals. At Regionals,with 4 Districts feeding into Regionals then there would be 8 teams competing for top 2 Regional teams that would then compete at State.

Example: 100m Boys
Have the normal qualifying of two semis leading to the final. In addition there would be 1 or 2 heats of the eligible runners from the 8 teams that were not in the two semis. Team scoring at Regionals would be 32 for 1st, 31 for 2nd, etc. Again, the final would be places 1-8 and places 9, etc. would be from the non-qualifiers from the semis plus the 2 extra team heats. Scoring would still be 32, 31, etc. even if not 32 individuals.

Same scenario at State.

Plusses:
1. No dual meet season extension.
2. No extra meets or running for the athletes. Done with existing meets with officials, fans, e
3. “Whole” team advances and extends season for “team” with much more teammate support at succeeding meets.
4. Easy to score.
5. No extra travel or days of competition.
6. Only problem for coach is determining where to place his 100m boy who could qualify for state in the 200 because he finished in top 4 but didn’t qualify for the semis in the 100. But that would make the meet even more interesting.
7. System similar to cross country and other sports where a team advances.
8. Scoring puts a premium on all places and all athletes in the meet. You could have athletes being cheered beyond their imagination.
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