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Old 12-25-18, 12:49 AM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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Record time

If both the first and second place finishers record the same time and it is a meet record, should both athletes get credited with holding the meet record. I know of an event where the OHSAA didn't credit the second place finisher with the state meet record even though he had the same time as the first place finisher.
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Old 12-25-18, 09:00 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
If both the first and second place finishers record the same time and it is a meet record, should both athletes get credited with holding the meet record. I know of an event where the OHSAA didn't credit the second place finisher with the state meet record even though he had the same time as the first place finisher.
ABSOLUTELY!

What event are you referring to? Was this a done recently?
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Old 12-25-18, 11:12 AM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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This whole thing got started when a coach emailed me saying his school was trying to get a list of all their state qualifiers with their places and marks. It was then that I found the individual got second in the 120 yard high hurdles in class AA in 1971 with the same time as the winner which at that time was a state meet record.
Scan_0034.pdf

I wanted to give his coach a Christmas present by telling him the athlete's time was a state meet record which lasted from 1971-1975

Last edited by Lancermania; 12-25-18 at 11:25 AM..
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Old 12-25-18, 11:57 AM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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If they determined that one won over the other, than I would say that even though they had the same time only the winner has the meet record.
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Old 12-25-18, 02:43 PM
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JAVMAN83 in post #2 disagrees with that.

Last edited by Lancermania; 12-25-18 at 06:05 PM..
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Old 12-25-18, 06:08 PM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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Here is what I found in the USA Track & Field Competition Rules, Rule 262 Rules Applicable to All Records, #8.

"In track events of 10,000 meters or less and in field events, when two or more
contestants record the same performance during a single competition, each such contestant shall be entitled to the record."

Last edited by Lancermania; 12-25-18 at 06:40 PM..
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Old 12-26-18, 04:38 AM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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I stand corrected.
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Old 12-26-18, 06:20 AM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
Here is what I found in the USA Track & Field Competition Rules, Rule 262 Rules Applicable to All Records, #8.

"In track events of 10,000 meters or less and in field events, when two or more
contestants record the same performance during a single competition, each such contestant shall be entitled to the record."
Is it THE SAME PERFORMANCE if one runner clearly beats the other? Or is this rule for times matching from different heats or when a winner between the two could not be determined? It seems strange to give a share of a record to someone who arrived at the finish line AFTER another competitor.
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Old 12-26-18, 07:52 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
Is it THE SAME PERFORMANCE if one runner clearly beats the other? Or is this rule for times matching from different heats or when a winner between the two could not be determined? It seems strange to give a share of a record to someone who arrived at the finish line AFTER another competitor.
BOTH. Same goes for the field events, even though a winner can be differentiated (and often is) based on a fewer misses (vertical jumps) or the next best efforts (horizontal jumps & throws). WINNING & RECORDS are not necessarily congruent, nor should they be. What matters in record-keeping is the PERFORMANCE, NOT the place.

Indeed, I have seen examples of major records being set in the horizontal jumps by NON-winning marks because the non-winner's performance was GREATER than the winner's legal best.
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Old 12-26-18, 08:32 AM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
BOTH. Same goes for the field events, even though a winner can be differentiated (and often is) based on a fewer misses (vertical jumps) or the next best efforts (horizontal jumps & throws). WINNING & RECORDS are not necessarily congruent, nor should they be. What matters in record-keeping is the PERFORMANCE, NOT the place.

Indeed, I have seen examples of major records being set in the horizontal jumps by NON-winning marks because the non-winner's performance was GREATER than the winner's legal best.
I understand the legal, non-legal aspect which could include pre-lims in running events. What I don't understand is how the winner of a race did not get to the line faster than the 2nd place finisher in the same heat. Obviously they did run a faster time if there is a mechanism in place to quantify time to that degree. If not, it is still obvious to me that they were faster. They arrived sooner.
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Old 12-26-18, 01:54 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
I understand the legal, non-legal aspect which could include pre-lims in running events. What I don't understand is how the winner of a race did not get to the line faster than the 2nd place finisher in the same heat. Obviously they did run a faster time if there is a mechanism in place to quantify time to that degree. If not, it is still obvious to me that they were faster. They arrived sooner.
I completely concur with your assessment. However, the rules in running are that times are recorded to 1/100 second and differentiation to 1/1000 second is used (if available) for ONLY placing purposes, not for records. At top sprinting speeds, you're only talking of an approximate 3"-4" difference between two individuals per 1/100 second. That is the physical spacing at 10 meters per second, which is on par with a top HS last 10m segment. The gap will increase, naturally, the slower the performance is; however, you're only talking about a increase to 4-5" gaps for 1/100 segments at the 12-13 second range of 100m sprinting. These are gaps only a camera can accurately record with reliability. Our sport is only considering 1/100 seconds segments for official purposes of recording a performance - period. Trying to divide that further down to 1/1000 seconds would be a fruitless and time increasing endeavor, IMHO.
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Old 12-27-18, 01:15 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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Every entity/group that keeps a record sheet is perfectly within their own rights to determine their own rules about what is or is not required to be included to be a record.

The rules regarding records outlined in the NFHS rulebook truly are only there for the purposes of establishing National records. As it turns out, the OHSAA and many of its member schools and leagues use those rules as a starting point for their own records.

So, the truth is, if you want to include record marks for a second place effort that tie to the whole second, or tenth, or hundredth, or thousandth on your record sheets... go for it.

Personally, I include field event ties made by second place because their efforts are actually equal. I did not include an equal-mark "tie" made by 2nd place in a 4x400 a few years ago because it was undisputed that while the mark was the same, the 2nd place team was behind the winner at the finish line.
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Old 12-29-18, 10:14 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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There is another sound reason behind NFHS rules about two athletes with the same time to the 1/100th of a second both holding the record. Letís say two girls run 11.38 to tie the state meet 100 record this year. While one might beat the other, there is no way of knowing if only one, both or neither beat the existing record.
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Old 12-29-18, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
there is another sound reason behind nfhs rules about two athletes with the same time to the 1/100th of a second both holding the record. Letís say two girls run 11.38 to tie the state meet 100 record this year. While one might beat the other, there is no way of knowing if only one, both or neither beat the existing record.
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