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  #1  
Old 12-24-18, 03:14 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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False entry marks == misconduct ?

Just read this in the new NCAA rulebook. It's a Point of Emphasis this year at that level.

Quote:
Misconduct. The committee wants to send a reminder that misconduct is any act of dishonesty, unsporting conduct, unprofessional behavior or breach of law occurring at the locale of the competition or warm-up that discredits the event or intercollegiate athletics. This also incudes the intentional false reporting of marks for entry purposes. Acts of misconduct are subject to reprimand or ejection by the referee or meet management
While I don't care for false marks, and find them to show a lack of integrity of the coaches and teams involved, it's never occurred to me to punish this as an unsportsmanlike act.

What say you coaches? Should NFHS/OHSAA referees disqualify coaches for purposely false marks?
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Old 12-24-18, 05:33 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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This seems pretty difficult to enforce.

When coaching I had a situation of a 400 guy with an open best of 51.8 because he had only run it open once and it was in a windy dual meet. He had splits in the low 48's. I entered him at 49.8 in a big meet because that is conservatively what I thought he could run. He ran 49.4. If he had run 51-53 would I have been in trouble under these rules?
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Old 12-24-18, 05:36 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Just read this in the new NCAA rulebook. It's a Point of Emphasis this year at that level.



While I don't care for false marks, and find them to show a lack of integrity of the coaches and teams involved, it's never occurred to me to punish this as an unsportsmanlike act.

What say you coaches? Should NFHS/OHSAA referees disqualify coaches for purposely false marks?
I find them to be dishonest. That includes entering relay splits as open marks. I wouldn't punish the kids for false entries, but coaches should be given a warning first. If it were to continue, then disqualification of that coach for the meet. If it happened over several meets, then certainly the school's administration should not want that coach around.
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Old 12-24-18, 05:38 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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HS should have a TFRRS system like NCAA does. All meets not submitted to TFRRS wouldn't be recognized for entry into other meets. Period.
  #5  
Old 12-24-18, 10:11 PM
madman madman is offline
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I think there are several serious issues with false entry marks not the least of which is the lack of integrity communicated to a coach's athletes. How can we instill the virtues of honesty, hard work, etc. when we seek to gain advantage with a lie?

We also communicate that seed times have far more importance than they deserve to have. When we lie to get an athlete into the fastest heat or a preferred lane, we implicitly suggest that our athletes' abilities and efforts are insufficient for their own success. One of the best things that has happened to counter this argument was from lane 8.

I cringe when I hear coaches say nothing matters until meets at the end of the season. It's a horrible thing to say when most athletes don't even get to run in those meets. However, I do think it's fine to communicate that dual meets and invitationals are the time to refine technique, to try out new strategies, etc. and to use the experiences as opportunities to learn and to grow - the outcome isn't near as important as what the athlete takes away from the experience.

Running from the 2nd heat or in the 7th lane are hardly major barriers to giving your best effort and learning from each race. When lying to get our athletes into preferred heats/lanes we deny them the opportunity to develop the skills necessary to be successful when the competition gets tougher.

That being said, I don't thing we're ready at the high school level to move to a TFRRS-type system. Half of our meets are dual meets that are hand-timed with dubious reliability. Until we get to regionals, almost none of our meets have wind-guages.

When we used to advance sprinters based on place within heats at Districts, I think there might have been a better argument for the importance of seed times. At this point when we are advancing to finals based entirely on time, seed times have a minimal impact on results.

I think some coaches believe they are communicating their faith in their athletes by giving them a seed time they've never actually run, but I believe there are far better ways to communicate that than by lying.

We can, and should, do better. However, I don't think we're ready to punish coaches for misconduct at the high school level.

We will have made progress when we can simply get all coaches to stop reporting hand-times at dual meets to the hundredth...
  #6  
Old 12-25-18, 12:19 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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I'm retired from the game. I'm not sure what part of the state you're from, but dual meets in the SW Ohio part have almost died in the last 10-15 years or so. Most everything I see online is an invitational or a relay, and most of those have timing companies recording to 1/100 seconds. Correct me if I'm wrong, everyone, but aren't wind gauges now REQUIRED for the key running events (100/200/short hurdles) at ALL district level meets now? I know there's sporadic wind gauge readings in the long jump (no wind gauge = NON-LEGAL jump, automatically), but I understand the human element of staffing that situation.

As far as those meets with faux auto-timing (readouts in 1/100, but should be rounded up to nearest 1/10 second) and pure hand-timing, there's the old fashioned standard of 0.24 seconds added to any race below 400m. For the 400m & 4x100m, add 0.14 seconds. Everything above 400m has no adjustment. Those are internationally accepted conversions and should be followed.
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Old 12-25-18, 01:16 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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In NE ohio, most conferences race a full Dual (double dual) Tri or quad meet schedule. That's the Federal League, PAC-7, Inter-valley Conf. and several others.
At most of these that I attend, there is not FAT timing - some have FAT, but do not (or can not) use it for several reasons. 1. can not afford it for the size meet it is (no entry fee). 2. those who can use it, would rather coach their kids than to be looking at a computer or typing in hytech field events. That leaves several well-meaning parents timing and picking. even if they are very good, times will be about .5 second faster than legit FAT times. The .24 is the best that "expert" hand-timers can do. Picking places correctly is obviously much more important.
Some of these sites also report these hand times to the 100th and they are reported as FAT. There are also several invitationals that do this AND some league meets! Most of the coaches who get on yappi, probably know better, but the problem is that many coaches (experienced and inexperienced) or athletic directors, or Officials do not understand much about marks.
Other examples that I have seen in the past couple years even at league meets:
- marking the Discus to the nearer quarter inch (should be to the nearer lesser inch.
- All marks in the 400 and up is rounded up to the second. or no decimal at all (.) in the 1600 or 3200
- Marking the long jump and/or shot to the nearer inch (that was the instruction by the timing company at an invite we were at last year)
- Placing by time instead of having pickers (timing lanes instead of place)
-thinking that a "sprint eight" (or the like) is FAT

remember...If a football coach has a guy who went 4.7 in the 40, they think that means they can go 6.7 in 60 meter and 10.7 FAT in the 100. because they are moving about 10 yards per second at the end of that 40 yard dash
Even though the 4.7 would be a legit 5.06 FAT and yards and meters are not really close if you are talking about 100 of them. Some of these "football coaches" are the ones timing the meet (or the kids parent) and they think that they can/should go 10.7 and when the clock says 11.95 they writing it down as 10.95 (or they hit the watch on the sound and when the kid starts to lean about 6 meters out.

So, some coaches are putting marks in that "seem" right just because they are ignorant.
one of my assistants wondered why I put such a "slow" time in for a kid in his first 60 meter hurdles of the season since they ran 16.33 FAT (16.0h) outdoors in the 110's, they should be well under 9.0 since it is just a little more that double the race. (his entry time was 11.0 and he ran about 10.8).

Maybe we can hold off on punishing coaches unless they are lying with the intent of getting preferred lanes/heats. but IMO we have to educate some coaches just as we do our athletes. Coaches that do this should be "called-out" on this and told what they did and what do do next time.

Merry Christmas
  #8  
Old 12-25-18, 10:33 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Merry Christmas as well to everyone here!

I learned this a long time ago. Rule #1, if a football coach is involved, it generally isn't a good thing for track & field. The only exception to that rule is if the football coach was a serious track & field athlete themselves and was a multi-sport athlete. Then there MAY be an exception. My experiences observing football coaches are that they are extremely ignorant of the basics of human performance, particularly on the measurement of performance and biomechanics issues. Just my personal experiences.
  #9  
Old 12-25-18, 04:00 PM
tmk tmk is offline
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Merry Christmas to all as well.

In the spirit of both the original post and JAVMAN83's thought, I would like to add this.

Three of my head coaches over the years were also football coaches. Each was outstanding in their own way; all were accomplished, conference championship track coaches. And all deserve a special recognition for putting up with a certain cocky young assistant coach that only thought they he had all of the answers.

One in particular - my first head coach, Ralph Holder at Belpre - taught me immeasurably about how to organize and manage a team... and manage entries into a track meet.

Back then (1986), everything was done by hand. Just before our invitational in the spring, our assistant coaches were asked to seed the events for our coaching area. Our specific directions from coach were to look for examples that may seem... out of place. And correct them if appropriate.

In my case, that involved a pair of 1600 entries at 4:02. And even though we didn't have the wonders of Milesplit back then, Coach did have newspaper results for every team we would compete against. And no one in southeast Ohio had a pair of 4 low milers that year. (!)

So we moved both guys to a heat more appropriate to their ability. Neither had broken 5:20 in any newspaper results we could find, nor did they break 5:20 that day. And none of their other entries were out of line, so it wasn't like they were part of some evil scheme to get one over on the competition.

Perhaps then it's just a question of having a person designated by meet management to look for outliers, just like Coach Holder had us do. If there is a team with an unusual number of entry issues at a conference or district level, a phone call might be in order. After all, it is a professionalism issue.

Certainly, the possibility that your kids might be moved to less desirable heats or lanes might be an eye opener, particularly if that warning is shared with a school's AD or administration.
  #10  
Old 12-28-18, 11:29 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Last year we had a school enter their best discus thrower at 76' instead of 176'. Makes it tough when everyone in his flight is throwing nearly 100' shorter. This is a big time program and all their entries were to 1/4" for the disc. We dream of having a guy we can mess up his entry by 100'
 

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