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  #91  
Old 10-11-18, 09:15 PM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeroe View Post
There is nothing wrong with this. There is also absolutely nothing wrong with sending your child to one of these private institutions. These are very strong well rounded institutions. I grew up in the private system. Very strong educational system. There are few public systems that can compare as a collective to the best private systems. Any child with the correct environment at home can excel in either system. A child raised properly the system does not make the child; however, the system can help the child maximize on their potential.

The only area some of the private systems lack is true diversity. Diversity is a very important and in some cases this is missing in these systems. When there is little exposure to diversity early in life it can be difficult for some to adapt later. The benefits of the private system far out way any detractors.

That's assuming that a private school education is for all and is a cure all. As a public school result grades k-12 I feel as though I did okish haha. I mean we'll never know. Would my life be better had I gone to the local catholic school? your guess is as good as mine. Young lady i graduated high school with 20 years ago said the best thing that ever happened to her was leaving her catholic high school after 9th grade and coming to the public school. Her experience was so positive that all 3 younger siblings finished out their catholic k-8 school tenure and promptly enrolled in our local public high school. By that same token I can offer examples of the opposite. This goes back maybe 18 years ago. A kid from old Toledo Libbey high school transfers to Toledo Central Catholic for his senior year. Anyone with a working brain can tell you making that move opened him up to an abundance of opportunities both socially, academically and athletically that he would never have had at Libbey.
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  #92  
Old 10-11-18, 09:37 PM
fromthe3 fromthe3 is offline
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Family is the most important thing and then friends. You can find positive and negative friends at either. You can have a successful life from either school.

I just believe public schools are stronger because of the pay of teachers (for the most part they get better teachers) and the accountability from the state. Finally, they can save you lots of money.

To me it is a no brainer.
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  #93  
Old 10-11-18, 09:56 PM
tom 48 tom 48 is online now
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Originally Posted by fromthe3 View Post
Family is the most important thing and then friends. You can find positive and negative friends at either. You can have a successful life from either school.

I just believe public schools are stronger because of the pay of teachers (for the most part they get better teachers) and the accountability from the state. Finally, they can save you lots of money.

To me it is a no brainer.
Depends on the school. Higher pay doesn't necessarily mean you have a better teacher( ask about teachers' pay on the "Debate" forum and you'll get a completely different observation on teacher compensation and competence). I would stack the faculty at University School, Hawken, Laurel, HB, and the school I know best, against any public school's. As a matter of fact, parents who are paying tuition have a higher stake in their child's education, so they tend to be very involved.And all studies show that parental involvement is the best indicator of student success. But, we're off the topic, unless it has run its course.
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  #94  
Old 10-11-18, 09:58 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by jeroe View Post
The devil is in the details. In the top 3 divisions 20 of 300 schools have >20% of their adjusted enrollment due to CB. That same 6% of schools has won 80% of the state championships in the top 3 divisions over the last 5 years. Moeller also won 1 but only 15% of their enrollment is due CB.

Lets play a game. You get to pick from who is in the park at the time. I get to bring my team. Not liking those odds are you?
I like the odds when my kids get into the weight room, with purpose, in January and February. That makes them bigger, better, stronger and more disciplined. I like the odds when my coaching staff is comprised of winners. I like the odds when my kids play for each other because they like each other and aren't a compilation of talented athletes who aren't coachable. I like the odds when the kids in my school want to play football instead of video games in the basement. I like the odds when my kids pray for one another when they're hurt.

I wish I could pick the best athletes from around town, as you say I do. But I get to work with the kids whose parents think it's important enough to send their kids to the local Catholic school near them. Some of them are pretty good athletes, but most of them are just kids who want to work hard to be the best they can be. They work, they listen, they encourage one another, and they play aggressive, smart football. They have a "next man up" attitude.

So, you come to the park with your team of kids whose parents choose not to pay for their educations. I'll come to the park with my kids whose parents choose to pay for theirs. I like those odds.
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  #95  
Old 10-11-18, 10:06 PM
tom 48 tom 48 is online now
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
I like the odds when my kids get into the weight room, with purpose, in January and February. That makes them bigger, better, stronger and more disciplined. I like the odds when my coaching staff is comprised of winners. I like the odds when my kids play for each other because they like each other and aren't a compilation of talented athletes who aren't coachable. I like the odds when the kids in my school want to play football instead of video games in the basement. I like the odds when my kids pray for one another when they're hurt.

I wish I could pick the best athletes from around town, as you say I do. But I get to work with the kids whose parents think it's important enough to send their kids to the local Catholic school near them. Some of them are pretty good athletes, but most of them are just kids who want to work hard to be the best they can be. They work, they listen, they encourage one another, and they play aggressive, smart football. They have a "next man up" attitude.

So, you come to the park with your team of kids whose parents choose not to pay for their educations. I'll come to the park with my kids whose parents choose to pay for theirs. I like those odds.
Well said. The most common misconception is that Catholic school teams are comprised of hand-picked all-stars who are bigger, faster, and more athletic than those of public schools. While the qualities of your kids are not exclusive to private schools, it is the foundation of any successful team.
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  #96  
Old 10-11-18, 10:16 PM
fromthe3 fromthe3 is offline
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My 2018 Rankings with the teams that I think can win it all
D 1
1. Colerain
2. Mentor
3. Moeller
4. Eds
5. Iggy
6. Elder
7. Xavier
8. Euclid
9. McKinley
10. Pick Central

D 2
1. Hoban
2. TCC
3. Massillon

D 3
1. Trotwood
2. Alter
3. East
4. Kenston
5. Canfield
6. Louisville

D 4
1. Steubenville
2. St. Mary's
3. Clinton Massie

D 5
1. Wheelersburg

D 6
1.Marion Local
2. Coldwater
3. Kirtland
4. St Henry

D 7
1. Minster
2. Pandora-Gilboa
3. McComb
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  #97  
Old 10-11-18, 10:20 PM
jeroe jeroe is offline
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Originally Posted by fromthe3 View Post
My 2018 Rankings with the teams that I think can win it all
D 1
1. Colerain
2. Mentor
3. Moeller
4. Eds
5. Iggy
6. Elder
7. Xavier
8. Euclid
9. McKinley
10. Pick Central

D 2
1. Hoban
2. TCC
3. Massillon

D 3
1. Trotwood
2. Alter
3. East
4. Kenston
5. Canfield
6. Louisville

D 4
1. Steubenville
2. St. Mary's
3. Clinton Massie

D 5
1. Wheelersburg

D 6
1.Marion Local
2. Coldwater
3. Kirtland
4. St Henry

D 7
1. Minster
2. Pandora-Gilboa
3. McComb
No Winton Woods in D2?
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  #98  
Old 10-11-18, 10:28 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fromthe3 View Post
Family is the most important thing and then friends. You can find positive and negative friends at either. You can have a successful life from either school.

I just believe public schools are stronger because of the pay of teachers (for the most part they get better teachers) and the accountability from the state. Finally, they can save you lots of money.

To me it is a no brainer.
Maybe this discussion should be redirected to a thread on the debate forum...but I as a public school product will point out that a big reason why teachers get paid more at the public schools are the teachers unions. The real reason why teachers get paid so little is just the sheer quantity of education majors today. Supply and demand. but, I think everyone would appreciate if we wanted to expand on this point, that we do so in the debate forum (perhaps with a link here).
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  #99  
Old 10-11-18, 10:32 PM
fromthe3 fromthe3 is offline
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Originally Posted by tom 48 View Post
Depends on the school. Higher pay doesn't necessarily mean you have a better teacher( ask about teachers' pay on the "Debate" forum and you'll get a completely different observation on teacher compensation and competence). I would stack the faculty at University School, Hawken, Laurel, HB, and the school I know best, against any public school's. As a matter of fact, parents who are paying tuition have a higher stake in their child's education, so they tend to be very involved.And all studies show that parental involvement is the best indicator of student success. But, we're off the topic, unless it has run its course.
Well points made, but the private schools you have chosen are not the majority of private schools that have good football programs.

The majority of private schools with good football programs (St. V, Hoban, Eds, Iggy, Canton Central Catholic, Bishop Hartley, Mooney, Ursuline and Benedictine - not sure about the Cincy ones but assume they are similar) are not the level of schools that you are speaking of.

I would put any of the wealthy community public schools against the majority of private schools with good football programs. And the wealthy community public school parents put pressure on their schools too.
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  #100  
Old 10-11-18, 10:38 PM
fromthe3 fromthe3 is offline
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Originally Posted by jeroe View Post
No Winton Woods in D2?
Maybe should have added them but they lost to Trotwood by 10 who got beat by Pick Cent by 23.

Hoban is in a league of their own.

At least Massillon and TCC have shown they are invincible so far.

Massillon pounding St V similar as Hoban.

No one close to TCC. They pounded Bishop Hartley and Whitmer
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  #101  
Old 10-11-18, 10:43 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Originally Posted by fromthe3 View Post
Well points made, but the private schools you have chosen are not the majority of private schools that have good football programs.

The majority of private schools with good football programs (St. V, Hoban, Eds, Iggy, Canton Central Catholic, Bishop Hartley, Mooney, Ursuline and Benedictine - not sure about the Cincy ones but assume they are similar) are not the level of schools that you are speaking of.

I would put any of the wealthy community public schools against the majority of private schools with good football programs. And the wealthy community public school parents put pressure on their schools too.
Which would make sense considering wealthy school districts get a far greater proportion of their school funding from property taxes than poorer school districts, which get more of their funding from the state.
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  #102  
Old 10-11-18, 10:55 PM
jeroe jeroe is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
I like the odds when my kids get into the weight room, with purpose, in January and February. That makes them bigger, better, stronger and more disciplined. I like the odds when my coaching staff is comprised of winners. I like the odds when my kids play for each other because they like each other and aren't a compilation of talented athletes who aren't coachable. I like the odds when the kids in my school want to play football instead of video games in the basement. I like the odds when my kids pray for one another when they're hurt.

I wish I could pick the best athletes from around town, as you say I do. But I get to work with the kids whose parents think it's important enough to send their kids to the local Catholic school near them. Some of them are pretty good athletes, but most of them are just kids who want to work hard to be the best they can be. They work, they listen, they encourage one another, and they play aggressive, smart football. They have a "next man up" attitude.

So, you come to the park with your team of kids whose parents choose not to pay for their educations. I'll come to the park with my kids whose parents choose to pay for theirs. I like those odds.
Show me where I said you pick the best athletes. You are assuming I am talking strictly about athletic potential. I said you are selecting your collective. This selection process is a mutual one. It is based on very important set of criteria that is designed to be successful. I never once mentioned the word athlete. You and I will agree 90% of what is required in a team sport to be successful. The difference between you and I is you do not admit that 90% of the teams you are competing against do not have the luxury of that selection process. You do not have to take the troubled child into your system taxing your system. You do not have to take the unmotivated child into your system taxing your system.

You already would in no way agree to try and compete where the team you have is based on a lottery, because your smart, you know better! The public system is behind the curve before there is a single practice, weight room session, team meeting etc... My issue as I pointed out quite rudely I will admit initially was those who do not admit to a huge competitive advantage and then demean, and act superior, and downgrade others and that collective is brought together supposedly because of religion! That is not what religion is about and maybe of some them should a paid more attention in class!

You say they have the best coaches. So is Gerry Faust the best high school Football coach in Ohio history, or did he accumulate the best team, through a selection process? Some say he was. I say as soon as he got on field where he wasn't the only one using a MASSIVE selection process he couldn't compete!
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  #103  
Old 10-11-18, 11:10 PM
tom 48 tom 48 is online now
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Originally Posted by fromthe3 View Post
Well points made, but the private schools you have chosen are not the majority of private schools that have good football programs.

The majority of private schools with good football programs (St. V, Hoban, Eds, Iggy, Canton Central Catholic, Bishop Hartley, Mooney, Ursuline and Benedictine - not sure about the Cincy ones but assume they are similar) are not the level of schools that you are speaking of.

I would put any of the wealthy community public schools against the majority of private schools with good football programs. And the wealthy community public school parents put pressure on their schools too.
Your post wasn't about football. It was about the quality of teachers, the relevance to pay. Nothing about football. I would agree that many public schools have teachers that are superb. Many private schools do, too. You disparage the Catholic schools and say that they are not on the level of the other private schools. I might put that back on you by asking if the teachers at Glenville are as good as those at Mason or Solon? The latter schools pay more, so, according to your standard, the teachers should be better ( whatever that means). No consideration of demographic, obstacles, or family situation. And you are comparing the wealthy public schools to some of the less affluent Catholic schools by citing football achievement. I would put the faculty of Ignatius against any public school in a minute. Ditto St. Xavier and St. Edward. If we go to a football comparison, Chuck Kyle is making much less for coaching football than his counterpart at a rich suburban school. Does that mean that he isn't as good a coach?

Last edited by tom 48; 10-11-18 at 11:24 PM.
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  #104  
Old 10-11-18, 11:15 PM
jeroe jeroe is offline
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Originally Posted by fromthe3 View Post
Maybe should have added them but they lost to Trotwood by 10 who got beat by Pick Cent by 23.

Hoban is in a league of their own.

At least Massillon and TCC have shown they are invincible so far.

Massillon pounding St V similar as Hoban.

No one close to TCC. They pounded Bishop Hartley and Whitmer
I am going to see Hoban tomorrow. Agreed on they are a whole different animal. I do not believe Massillon will have what is necessary in the trenches! Very good team, but not enough depth at the line of scrimmage.
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  #105  
Old 10-11-18, 11:37 PM
jeroe jeroe is offline
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Originally Posted by CoventryTrackXCguy View Post
Maybe this discussion should be redirected to a thread on the debate forum...but I as a public school product will point out that a big reason why teachers get paid more at the public schools are the teachers unions. The real reason why teachers get paid so little is just the sheer quantity of education majors today. Supply and demand. but, I think everyone would appreciate if we wanted to expand on this point, that we do so in the debate forum (perhaps with a link here).
Some of the best teachers I had were nuns. They didn't get paid a whole lot!
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  #106  
Old 10-11-18, 11:55 PM
jeroe jeroe is offline
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Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
That's assuming that a private school education is for all and is a cure all. As a public school result grades k-12 I feel as though I did okish haha. I mean we'll never know. Would my life be better had I gone to the local catholic school? your guess is as good as mine. Young lady i graduated high school with 20 years ago said the best thing that ever happened to her was leaving her catholic high school after 9th grade and coming to the public school. Her experience was so positive that all 3 younger siblings finished out their catholic k-8 school tenure and promptly enrolled in our local public high school. By that same token I can offer examples of the opposite. This goes back maybe 18 years ago. A kid from old Toledo Libbey high school transfers to Toledo Central Catholic for his senior year. Anyone with a working brain can tell you making that move opened him up to an abundance of opportunities both socially, academically and athletically that he would never have had at Libbey.
I do not believe the private system is best for all students. Some of the public systems have a very strong emphasis and commitment to arts and music that is impressive.
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  #107  
Old 10-12-18, 12:02 AM
tom 48 tom 48 is online now
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Originally Posted by jeroe View Post
I do not believe the private system is best for all students. Some of the public systems have a very strong emphasis and commitment to arts and music that is impressive.
You are correct. In the area of the arts, the public schools excel. The private system is definitely not the answer for everyone; no one is claiming that it is. Each family must decide what it wants in the way of education for their children. And no one should judge the other system or those who believe in it. That would be the height of arrogance. If I lived in the Solon district, I would certainly consider Solon schools very strongly, and I am a huge supporter of Catholic education. It would all depend on the child's interests and in which environment that child would flourish.
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  #108  
Old 10-12-18, 12:19 AM
buckeye53 buckeye53 is offline
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In 2016 the Privates won all 5 of the title games they were a part of. Now in 2018 some are talking sweep ( except for D2 ) by the Publics. Looks to me like Competitive Ballance is working, or has it now shifted the playing field too far the other way ? If we put it back to 2016 rules, would Privates be in the mix, or is this just a down year. I say, let it run for 5 years and see how it shakes out. If the Privates aren’t winning enough gold, we can all start a big brew ha ha, and make them change it back. Then we can start arguing .....
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  #109  
Old 10-12-18, 05:32 AM
MooneyFanatic MooneyFanatic is offline
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I thought everyone knew, you get a room on the top floor of His Manson if youíre on a state football championships team.
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  #110  
Old 10-12-18, 05:41 AM
MooneyFanatic MooneyFanatic is offline
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Coaching is more than what happens at practice and on game day. It’s a 365 day job: / Actually I think coach longevity at a program is a better predictor of football success than religious affiliation or wealth of the school district.
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  #111  
Old 10-12-18, 08:11 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by MooneyFanatic View Post
Coaching is more than what happens at practice and on game day. Itís a 365 day job: / Actually I think coach longevity at a program is a better predictor of football success than religious affiliation or wealth of the school district.
Eh.

Is a program good because the HC has been there for a while or has the coach been there awhile because the program has been good under his guidance?



I am all for longevity and consistency throughout the system. We are one of the top 2-3 most successful programs in the state and the staff has been around for a long time, from the JH on up, and MOST of them have been graduates at our school so they keep churning out the consistent message and teaching of the game.
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  #112  
Old 10-12-18, 09:04 AM
MooneyFanatic MooneyFanatic is offline
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The programs that come tony mind are. Al hey Rick at Versailles and the previous cold water coach
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  #113  
Old 10-12-18, 09:11 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by MooneyFanatic View Post
The programs that come tony mind are. Al hey Rick at Versailles and the previous cold water coach
When Coach Hetrick retired they went downhill pretty quickly.

Coldwater's coach, John Reed, fell victim to cancer and one of his assistants took over and took the team to another level. Coach Reed, God Rest His Soul, pretty much had left CW to take the job at Massillon but on a weekend walk down the local bike path and around town realized how much he loved the town and school and decided to stay.
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  #114  
Old 10-12-18, 11:52 AM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Originally Posted by buckeye53 View Post
In 2016 the Privates won all 5 of the title games they were a part of. Now in 2018 some are talking sweep ( except for D2 ) by the Publics. Looks to me like Competitive Ballance is working, or has it now shifted the playing field too far the other way ? If we put it back to 2016 rules, would Privates be in the mix, or is this just a down year. I say, let it run for 5 years and see how it shakes out. If the Privates arenít winning enough gold, we can all start a big brew ha ha, and make them change it back. Then we can start arguing .....
Ah, cmon, itl be because the publics wanted it more, lol.
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  #115  
Old 10-12-18, 12:02 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by CardSharp View Post
Yes, Colerain will sweep the GCL this year.
And then lose in the semis per usual.
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  #116  
Old 10-12-18, 01:12 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by jeroe View Post
I do not believe the private system is best for all students. Some of the public systems have a very strong emphasis and commitment to arts and music that is impressive.
Agreed. And the public schools generally win the band competition against the privates. Must be because the public school band directors can choose the kids they want and the Catholic school directors have to play whoever goes to the school for athletics.
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  #117  
Old 10-12-18, 01:12 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Oh, and it's obviously a moral issue.
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  #118  
Old 10-12-18, 02:01 PM
fromthe3 fromthe3 is offline
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Originally Posted by tom 48 View Post
Your post wasn't about football. It was about the quality of teachers, the relevance to pay. Nothing about football. I would agree that many public schools have teachers that are superb. Many private schools do, too. You disparage the Catholic schools and say that they are not on the level of the other private schools. I might put that back on you by asking if the teachers at Glenville are as good as those at Mason or Solon? The latter schools pay more, so, according to your standard, the teachers should be better ( whatever that means). No consideration of demographic, obstacles, or family situation. And you are comparing the wealthy public schools to some of the less affluent Catholic schools by citing football achievement. I would put the faculty of Ignatius against any public school in a minute. Ditto St. Xavier and St. Edward. If we go to a football comparison, Chuck Kyle is making much less for coaching football than his counterpart at a rich suburban school. Does that mean that he isn't as good a coach?
My original post came from these two posts

Originally Posted by thePITman View Post
Form a team with a relatively higher percentage of kids with a stable home life, respect for authority, morals, and a good work ethic, and over time that program will have great success. Does this have a correlation to those families that have both the ambition and ability to have their children attend private schools? I tend to think so. As with most things, this is a generalization and there are always exceptions to the rule, but I feel it has merit. It's not just "recruiting" or just "working harder." It's the upbringing of the kids. This is why there are many prominent public programs, as well (ahem:MAC:ahem); take a look into the communities themselves. That's my $0.02

Then My2sense posted this:
Prob the post of the season! Well said and way too logical for most.

I started my rant based on the two above quotes. I was comparing affluent suburban schools to private schools. They both have very similar family dynamics. I wasn't comparing the most elite minority private schools that are pathetic in football and inner city schools. The focus of the above quotes were on good programs with good families which aren't the minority elite private schools with bad programs and aren't inner city schools.

I just dont understand if you live in an affluent school district why you would pay to go to school where teachers get paid less and where teachers have less accountability.

If teachers were paid more, more people would go into teaching. Any teacher can be great or bad, the public teacher, the private teacher, the teacher who gets paid more, and the teacher that gets paid less.

If someone had the choice of two jobs that are in the same profession but the pay is different, they would choose the better paying job.

So for the most part better teachers are going to go teach where the pay is better when both schools have the same type of kid. I'm not talking about inner city. Some people would choose not to work in the inner city regardless of the pay.

Also I don't understand why a teacher would choose to work at a private school that pays less then an affluent school district that pays more.

Yes private schools don't pay teachers as well as public schools and they cost families more then publics.

Lets talk about football. I dont want to talk about the schooling anymore.
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  #119  
Old 10-12-18, 04:00 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by MooneyFanatic View Post
Actually I think coach longevity at a program is a better predictor of football success
Depends on the school. Sometimes it's only a predictor of how little the district cares about winning in sports.
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Old 10-12-18, 04:12 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
I like the odds when my kids get into the weight room, with purpose, in January and February. That makes them bigger, better, stronger and more disciplined. I like the odds when my coaching staff is comprised of winners. I like the odds when my kids play for each other because they like each other and aren't a compilation of talented athletes who aren't coachable. I like the odds when the kids in my school want to play football instead of video games in the basement. I like the odds when my kids pray for one another when they're hurt.

I wish I could pick the best athletes from around town, as you say I do. But I get to work with the kids whose parents think it's important enough to send their kids to the local Catholic school near them. Some of them are pretty good athletes, but most of them are just kids who want to work hard to be the best they can be. They work, they listen, they encourage one another, and they play aggressive, smart football. They have a "next man up" attitude.

So, you come to the park with your team of kids whose parents choose not to pay for their educations. I'll come to the park with my kids whose parents choose to pay for theirs. I like those odds.
Uh, so I guess no public schools do any of this? Uh Alter has 33 seniors on their D3team. I would bet 75% of D1 schools in the state don't have 33 seniors on their team.
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