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  #271  
Old 07-17-15, 12:08 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykids1fan View Post
Just curious-- If an infielder boots a grounder and doesn't throw to first until the B/R rounds first, then tries to throw to first to try an pick off the runner that is trying to get back, is this considered the first play from the infield and would the runner be awarded 2nd or 3rd?
I dont believe it matters which way the runner is going. I know in a rundown if there is obstruction by the fielder the runners gets the next base no matter which way he was running.

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong so we will await allsports ruling, that once the player gains the base it is two from there. If the INF boots it around, bobble it, and throws it after the runner already gained first base he gets 3rd.

So I am going to go with he gets third base. Will see if that is correct.

Even though it may be the "first play", as allsport explained he still would get third if the ball was thrown after he reached first. I guess the question is does it then matter if the runner as you stated was heading back to first as he rounded the bag.
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  #272  
Old 07-17-15, 02:32 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Had this in a 14U game last night...

Runners on 1st and 2nd with one out. Batter strikes out while runner on 2nd attempts to steal 3rd. It's a bang-bang play and everybody looks to infield umpire (local, unlicensed guy), who looks to the plate umpire (licensed official), who doesn't do anything. Infield ump then calls the runner out, though his angle is not good.

It was a bad call (I was coaching 3B), but I'm not certain anything was really 'wrong' about the way it went down. I assume this was rightly the infield ump's call?
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  #273  
Old 07-17-15, 04:04 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykids1fan View Post
Just curious-- If an infielder boots a grounder and doesn't throw to first until the B/R rounds first, then tries to throw to first to try an pick off the runner that is trying to get back, is this considered the first play from the infield and would the runner be awarded 2nd or 3rd?

For thje sake of this rule, there mere attempt to field (or catch) the ball is not the play, the subsequent throw, feint, or attempted tag after the ball is gathered is the completion of the play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
I dont believe it matters which way the runner is going. I know in a rundown if there is obstruction by the fielder the runners gets the next base no matter which way he was running.

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong so we will await allsports ruling, that once the player gains the base it is two from there. If the INF boots it around, bobble it, and throws it after the runner already gained first base he gets 3rd.

So I am going to go with he gets third base. Will see if that is correct.

Even though it may be the "first play", as allsport explained he still would get third if the ball was thrown after he reached first. I guess the question is does it then matter if the runner as you stated was heading back to first as he rounded the bag.
The direction the runner is headed is irrelevant. If he's past first base, any award is based on the bag last touched.

In this situation, since the batter runner had already attained first base before the throw, he is awarded third base, as long as any other runners had also advanced at least one base prior to the throw. (even though this is the first play in the infield)
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  #274  
Old 07-17-15, 04:54 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpico View Post
Had this in a 14U game last night...

Runners on 1st and 2nd with one out. Batter strikes out while runner on 2nd attempts to steal 3rd. It's a bang-bang play and everybody looks to infield umpire (local, unlicensed guy), who looks to the plate umpire (licensed official), who doesn't do anything. Infield ump then calls the runner out, though his angle is not good.

It was a bad call (I was coaching 3B), but I'm not certain anything was really 'wrong' about the way it went down. I assume this was rightly the infield ump's call?
Infield umpire - presuming a two-man system - should be in the "C" position (i.e. between the mound and second base, on the short-stop side of the infield). That steal at third is his coverage; ideally said umpire will get in an angle where he can see the slide, bag, and tag (depending on where the umpire started the play, getting a good angle on a steal at third can be problematic).

From my standpoint - either as the plate umpire or the field umpire - that is going to be 100% the field umpire's call. The plate umpire has too much to focus on (i.e. the pitch) and too much traffic (batter, catcher) to get in an optimal position.

Nothing was "wrong" with how it went down from a process point, field umpire ended up making a call, though it was rather sloppy in its execution.
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  #275  
Old 07-21-15, 07:58 PM
playtherightway playtherightway is offline
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Pitcher starts to pitch...batter steps out without being granted time. Pitcher stops and does not throw the ball. Runner on 3rd...what's the call ?
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  #276  
Old 07-21-15, 08:08 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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  #277  
Old 07-21-15, 09:44 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playtherightway View Post
Pitcher starts to pitch...batter steps out without being granted time. Pitcher stops and does not throw the ball. Runner on 3rd...what's the call ?
By the letter of the law, one could argue it's a balk. However, almost any umpire with a degree of common sense is going to "no pitch" that play (i.e. no balk, just reset the action).
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  #278  
Old 07-22-15, 10:23 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
By the letter of the law, one could argue it's a balk. However, almost any umpire with a degree of common sense is going to "no pitch" that play (i.e. no balk, just reset the action).
By the letter of the law [FED Rule 6-2-4 (d)1], this is never a balk, but could be a strike..... or two.... (I believe that rule reference is correct, but I'm not 100% sure)

If the batter steps out with one foot or he steps out as he is holding his hand up to request time and the pitcher does not deliver the ball, the play is dead and no penalty is assessed to either the pitcher or batter. (If the pitcher does deliver the ball, then a strike is assessed to the batter - regardless where the ball is delivered in relation to the zone)

If the batter steps out with both feet and the pitcher fails to deliver the ball, a strike shall be assessed to the batter and no balk shall be called. (if the pitcher does deliver the ball, then two strikes are assessed to the batter -- automatic regardless of where the ball was delivered in relation the the zone)

If the umpire judges that the batter intentionally stepped out in order to cause a balk (or act in any other way to cause a balk) then in addition to the penalties listed above, the batter is ejected from the game.
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  #279  
Old 07-23-15, 10:25 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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When you are around baseball long enough you know the "unwritten" rules of the game.

I have often wondered, and last night it came up to me again, that is it in unwritten rule to not attempt to steal when a team is intentionally walking a guy? Of course you dont see it in HS.

I was just curious because last night watching Chapman, throwing in the 50's and wide of the plate. I would almost think many runners with any speed could take a shorter lead yet still be able to easily steal third.

What say you?
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  #280  
Old 07-26-15, 11:48 AM
GCPRO GCPRO is offline
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18U game-runners on 1st and 2nd and not outs. One hopper hit to the 3rd basemen who steps on third for the first out and then throws wild to 1b as the ball leaves field of play. Umps confer and give runner on first home and the batter/runner third base. The explanation given to me was the first action of the entire play was the force out at third and that eliminates the one plus one from the field. Then was told that the runner had already surpassed 1b when the ball rolled out of play which was rather subjective considering an online throw would have been 5UA-3 double play.

I don't argue with umps just questioned both as to how they arrived at the decision. Though I was rather hesitant when our SP in the first inning threw wildly on a pick move to 1b and they had to huddle to decide if the runner would be awarded one base or two.
We lost 7-6 and those two runners were the 6th and 7th runs for the opposition, though this occurred in the fourth. No whining, had plenty of time to catch up.
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  #281  
Old 07-26-15, 08:55 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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The base award should be granted from the time of the THROW, not the time the ball went out of play.
The penalty by definition is the following:
-two bases from the pitch for a first throw by the infielder that goes out of play
-two bases from the throw for a subsequent play infielder or any throw from an outfielder that goes out of play.

It was correctly ruled as the second play by the infielder, first play being the force out. However, it is more probable than not (can't tell based on narrative) that the runners had not reached the next base (batter-runner first, runner on first to second) before the THROW was made.
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  #282  
Old 07-26-15, 09:33 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCPRO View Post
The explanation given to me was the first action of the entire play was the force out at third and that eliminates the one plus one from the field.
Good Grief

This explanation alone should have alerted you that these guys had no grasp of the rules. There is no penalty under any published rule code that awards bases in a "one plus one" fashion.
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  #283  
Old 07-27-15, 10:23 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Good Grief

This explanation alone should have alerted you that these guys had no grasp of the rules. There is no penalty under any published rule code that awards bases in a "one plus one" fashion.
I guess the umps should make reading this thread a must do before they take the field.
We just talked about this exact thing last week.

I would like your take on this. If a coach asked you for an appeal on a play, do you generally grant it to him? A coach at Perrysburg at the acme tournament was all bent out of shape that the field ump didnt ask. He was saying the ump HAD to ask, which was false, the ump does not have to.
So what say you..do you generally ask if prompted unless it is just not close at all?
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  #284  
Old 07-27-15, 12:13 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
I guess the umps should make reading this thread a must do before they take the field.
We just talked about this exact thing last week.

I would like your take on this. If a coach asked you for an appeal on a play, do you generally grant it to him? A coach at Perrysburg at the acme tournament was all bent out of shape that the field ump didnt ask. He was saying the ump HAD to ask, which was false, the ump does not have to.
So what say you..do you generally ask if prompted unless it is just not close at all?
When you say "appeal", do you mean one umpire makes a call (other than a check swing) the coach disagrees with and asks the umpire to go to his partner?
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  #285  
Old 07-27-15, 12:18 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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The one in question was at first if the 1st baseman came off the bag on the high throw (i thought it was the right call of out), but also how about a check swing?
When coaching most times on the check swing the ump would ask if prompted, only a couple of times on a play at first when the guys comes off the base. I successfully, twice, got a call changed by asking the base ump to ask for help. (this was after I learned if you do so civilly, and dont really draw attention of asking you are more likely to get the help)
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  #286  
Old 07-27-15, 12:50 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
The one in question was at first if the 1st baseman came off the bag on the high throw (i thought it was the right call of out), but also how about a check swing?
When coaching most times on the check swing the ump would ask if prompted, only a couple of times on a play at first when the guys comes off the base. I successfully, twice, got a call changed by asking the base ump to ask for help. (this was after I learned if you do so civilly, and dont really draw attention of asking you are more likely to get the help)
Asking for help on a call at a base should be a rare occurrence. We are taught and we teach umpires to own their calls. Only when the umpire has some doubt on a play like this should they ask for help. (if they doubt their calls, they shouldn't be out there)

Once that cork has been popped, (the umpire asks after the coach asks) it's hard to get that stopped. In a two man system, there are always holes (also in 3-man, and some times in 4-man) and umpires have to get into the best position possible to make the calls.



As far as check swings, in high school it is not mandatory for the umpire to ask for help. That said, any umpire worth their salt will ask for help on the swing if requested..... (if the requests are frequent or for "other" reasons, then the request should be denied) In NCAA and professional baseball, the umpire is required by rule to ask for help if requested.
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  #287  
Old 08-10-15, 10:27 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Allsports,

What is your official ruling for the reds/dbacks final play yesterday.
Bases loaded. 1 out. Bottom 10. Tie game. Hit over the CF head. Runners from 1st and 2nd did not advance to their bases. Assuming you saw/heard/read about the play.

MLB, ESPN and the various articles today/last night didnt really say a whole lot about it, and Price stated it was a timing thing, that since the hitter got to first, and the runner scored...etc etc etc. Even the AP article talks about it.

What say you?

Just seeing what you say here. Thought the media did a piss poor job. Friend of mine is good buds with one of those in the NY offices and I know what he said....jus twanna see what you got!

Last edited by thavoice; 08-10-15 at 05:13 PM.
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  #288  
Old 08-11-15, 09:21 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Allsports,

What is your official ruling for the reds/dbacks final play yesterday.
Bases loaded. 1 out. Bottom 10. Tie game. Hit over the CF head. Runners from 1st and 2nd did not advance to their bases. Assuming you saw/heard/read about the play.

MLB, ESPN and the various articles today/last night didnt really say a whole lot about it, and Price stated it was a timing thing, that since the hitter got to first, and the runner scored...etc etc etc. Even the AP article talks about it.

What say you?

Just seeing what you say here. Thought the media did a piss poor job. Friend of mine is good buds with one of those in the NY offices and I know what he said....jus twanna see what you got!


From what I saw (I don't bother basing it on what I've read) there are three separate rule applications that can apply on this play.

First, the interference by the security guard would create a situation where the ball would become dead immediately on the touch and runners would be awarded bases determined by the judgment of the umpires. This award can be automatic, therefore absolving the runners from actually touching their awarded base. (this can be argued, but there is another rule posted below that trumps this anyway)

Next, if the rule did allow for the appeal of the runners not touching the next base, (it does not in this case) the Reds actually executed the appeal in the wrong sequence. The ball went to second base first, retiring the runner who was on first. That action removed any force on the preceding runner(s) and creates a time play on the runner advancing to third. Since the runner from third crossed the plate prior to the ball being thrown to third, the run would have counted anyway. (again, this does not apply as the game was legally over as described below)

Finally, under MLB rules, (I don't have my books handy, but I believe it's a subsection under 5.08) while in the last half inning of a regulation game or in extra innings, and a runner from third is forced to advance to home, the game will be declared over once that runner has touched third and the batter runner has touched first....... Since both of those runners fulfilled that requirement, the game was over and no appeal would be allowed on the other runners.

A crazy play for sure, but one that the guys got right.........
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  #289  
Old 08-12-15, 10:54 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Good answer.

From what my friends good buddy who is doing time in the NY offices at the time told him (He is a MLB ump on the "DL" right now) is that if the reds had touched 3rd and then 2nd....they would have had a lot more to talk about.

but you are right......so many variables. I am just dumbfounded those runners didnt advance. In HS when we got into those situation we made sure to infor the runners to get to the next base.
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  #290  
Old 09-09-15, 11:13 PM
nupanther nupanther is offline
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This is more along MLB, but I'm sure it can apply to all levels.

Player A has a long hitting streak. He plays the whole game and doesn't register an official at bat ( walk, sacrifice fly- whatever.) It his/ her hitting streak intact?
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  #291  
Old 09-10-15, 10:33 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by nupanther View Post
This is more along MLB, but I'm sure it can apply to all levels.

Player A has a long hitting streak. He plays the whole game and doesn't register an official at bat ( walk, sacrifice fly- whatever.) It his/ her hitting streak intact?
If the player's plate appearances result in a (any combination if more than one at bat) base on balls, hit batsman, defensive interference or obstruction, or sacrifice bunt, the streak remains intact.

The streak terminates if he is hitless (is put out or reaches by error) or records a sacrifice fly.
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  #292  
Old 10-06-15, 11:23 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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I know this is probably going to be a "I would have to see it" type of question but I'll do my best to describe it.

Left handed pitcher with a man on first. Normal delivery is very smooth.

Later, the pitcher "jerks" his shoulders up and lifts his foot towards first in a very quick motion. Then he settles back into a smooth motion to pitch the ball.

His right foot goes in three directions, first he lifts it up as if going to first in a quick motion. Comes to a near stop and then rotates his body to curl up with the foot moving towards second base. Then changes direction to come home.

So is this a balk or just a very polished move to keep runners close to first?
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  #293  
Old 10-06-15, 11:27 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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In layman's terms....

You'd have to judge whether or not he "gained ground" towards first. If his movement that you describe caused him to move towards first, he must go to first.

Plate umpire (in a two man system) is going to have the best look at this move.
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  #294  
Old 04-01-16, 08:26 AM
hitme hitme is offline
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H.S. baseball. Runner on first, one out. Grounder back to pitcher who throws to second where SS and 2nd baseman are both covering. SS fields the throw but as he crosses the bag steps on the 2nd baseman's foot which is on the bag. Umpire calls runner safe because SS didn't actually contact the base. Correct call?
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  #295  
Old 04-01-16, 02:39 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by hitme View Post
H.S. baseball. Runner on first, one out. Grounder back to pitcher who throws to second where SS and 2nd baseman are both covering. SS fields the throw but as he crosses the bag steps on the 2nd baseman's foot which is on the bag. Umpire calls runner safe because SS didn't actually contact the base. Correct call?
If no part of F6's (SS) foot touched the base, (which would be extremely difficult to do) the call is correct.

Last edited by AllSports12; 04-01-16 at 03:02 PM.
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  #296  
Old 04-02-16, 06:01 PM
hitme hitme is offline
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Thanks for the clarification. I would have bet he was wrong. Good thing I sit in a lawn chair and don't call the games.
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  #297  
Old 04-04-16, 07:22 AM
xumuskie xumuskie is offline
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2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to left center is caught. Both runners tag. Runner on 3rd left early, but scores before the runner that was on second gets tagged out in a run down. When would you appeal this play? Its the third out of the inning, so time wouldn't be called in until the other team takes the field.
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  #298  
Old 04-04-16, 07:38 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by xumuskie View Post
2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to left center is caught. Both runners tag. Runner on 3rd left early, but scores before the runner that was on second gets tagged out in a run down. When would you appeal this play? Its the third out of the inning, so time wouldn't be called in until the other team takes the field.
In this situation, (an inning ends) any appeal must be made prior to the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory.
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  #299  
Old 04-16-16, 04:05 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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High school coach ejection question. In game one of a d h a coach get ejected for arguing. I believe he should now receive a two game suspension correct? Does game two of that count? Also does he have to leave the premises? One from today just changed clothes and sat with his wife in the bleachers. For some reason I recall that second game does not go toward the two game but I cannot recall. Thanks
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  #300  
Old 04-17-16, 07:29 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
High school coach ejection question. In game one of a d h a coach get ejected for arguing. I believe he should now receive a two game suspension correct? Does game two of that count? Also does he have to leave the premises? One from today just changed clothes and sat with his wife in the bleachers. For some reason I recall that second game does not go toward the two game but I cannot recall. Thanks
The ejection means that person (coach, player, other team member) is done participating for the day. That individual's suspension covers the next two games played at the level that the ejection occurred.

In other words, get dumped in the first game of a JV DH on Saturday, you are done for Saturday and the next two JV games. (Mon, Weds for example) Even if varsity plays Mon, Tues.
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