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  #61  
Old 06-04-19, 05:26 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Here's an interesting review of the series Chernobyl from the Moscow Times!


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/...ernobyl-a65866
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  #62  
Old 06-04-19, 05:39 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Great wrap up to an excellent and original miniseries. Some thoughts:

* People are taking away the wrong message if they think the moral of this story is blah blah This was a story about a society that practiced CYA to an extent no other society ever had.

blah blah

First the State covered up

blah blah

Folks need to keep in mind that Chernobyl wasn't the first nor was it the worst disaster to have occurred under Soviet leadership..
There are a few people here I recall who have been involved in large scale engineering and construction projects, who are not on their 131st rewatch of hobbit movies and who have accomplished something and they will tell you, replace "state" with corporate or just about any other large (or small) social structure and the story ends the same way. IB could tell you about a disaster. I could. I'd bet SWCinci who shares a very close ideology up and down the line, could tell you the internal machinations and greeds that cause near disasters, if not for those willing to risk it all and speak out.


Bhopal, Love Canal, Ford Motor, name a 3rd world mining operation, name a religion, Purdue Pharmaceutical, heck, the great depression. Any of those ringing a bell? They were all cases of coordinated lying by people in power to cover their own azzes, to keep and or raise their own position in life at the expense of they didn't care how many. Not one of them "communist."

It was members of that communist state and political machine that uncovered and exposed the cover-up. They were not murdered by the system for it. Johnny Appleseed didn't march in there and expose it. Is the now Democratic-Capitalistic Russia any less cover-up do you think? Rhetorical.

Your arguments fail on so many grounds. The cover-up was by very FEW people, not by a system. But people in power know the loop-holes. They got there to stay there and they know how to do it. They lied. They coerced others to lie. Same occurs anywhere and everywhere.

The writers tried to tell you in simple words what the movie was about.


"The cost of lies"


Most of us attempted to take something away from the movie. But you prefer to ignore
the POV of others, of the writers. You're only interested in installing your own from-the-radio-show dogma. You're not convincing of either that dogma or that you have any experience to be respected. You can't see that?


But then I don't recall you've ever budged even the slightest from your dogma as you've gained life experience over the years so perhaps it's those thinking you might leave your comfort level long enough to experience other life, to grow, wasting their time.
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  #63  
Old 06-04-19, 06:09 PM
OhioBobcatFan06 OhioBobcatFan06 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Here's an interesting review of the series Chernobyl from the Moscow Times!


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/...ernobyl-a65866
I hadnít thought about the impact popularity of this show would have on Russia.

Love/hate us Iíve always found foreigners are highly intrigued when American culture takes any interest in their country... usually, itís positive things like song, sport or some other cultural phenomenon not so clearly negative and usually itís not countries that have a rivalry like we do with Russia.

Hard to see how they could put positive spin on the event... area still uninhabitable... sabotage seems far-fetched/would embarrass security for allowing foreign operators in...
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  #64  
Old 06-04-19, 07:08 PM
OhioBobcatFan06 OhioBobcatFan06 is offline
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Just got around to watching the final episode.. in ending credits it was mentioned Gorbachev said in 2007 Chernobyl was cause for fall of USSR... whatís thought process behind that?
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  #65  
Old 06-04-19, 07:21 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
There are a few people here I recall who have been involved in large scale engineering and construction projects, who are not on their 131st rewatch of hobbit movies and who have accomplished something and they will tell you, replace "state" with corporate or just about any other large (or small) social structure and the story ends the same way. IB could tell you about a disaster. I could. I'd bet SWCinci who shares a very close ideology up and down the line, could tell you the internal machinations and greeds that cause near disasters, if not for those willing to risk it all and speak out.


Bhopal, Love Canal, Ford Motor, name a 3rd world mining operation, name a religion, Purdue Pharmaceutical, heck, the great depression. Any of those ringing a bell? They were all cases of coordinated lying by people in power to cover their own azzes, to keep and or raise their own position in life at the expense of they didn't care how many. Not one of them "communist."

It was members of that communist state and political machine that uncovered and exposed the cover-up. They were not murdered by the system for it. Johnny Appleseed didn't march in there and expose it. Is the now Democratic-Capitalistic Russia any less cover-up do you think? Rhetorical.

Your arguments fail on so many grounds. The cover-up was by very FEW people, not by a system. But people in power know the loop-holes. They got there to stay there and they know how to do it. They lied. They coerced others to lie. Same occurs anywhere and everywhere.

The writers tried to tell you in simple words what the movie was about.


"The cost of lies"


Most of us attempted to take something away from the movie. But you prefer to ignore
the POV of others, of the writers. You're only interested in installing your own from-the-radio-show dogma. You're not convincing of either that dogma or that you have any experience to be respected. You can't see that?


But then I don't recall you've ever budged even the slightest from your dogma as you've gained life experience over the years so perhaps it's those thinking you might leave your comfort level long enough to experience other life, to grow, wasting their time.
Are you seriously comparing American cooperate misbehavior to what routinely went on in the Soviet Union?

I would also love to hear from posters describing American corporate disasters on par with those that regularly occurred in the Soviet Union. My guess is all we'll hear are crickets because at our worst - such as Love Canal - we can not hope to match what a communist system can produce.

And how was the Great Depression like Chernobyl - seems like a bit of a stretch to me. But if you're going to throw out the GD as an example of a capitalist disaster what would you call the Ukrainian genocide carried out by the Soviets in 1932? The seven million Ukrainians who were murdered would like to know.

And what's with your spirited defense of communism? Would anyone get a pass for defending Nazism? Because based on the number of people murdered, Communism has been a far more evil ideology then Nazism. Yet here you are trying to argue that the Soviet system was just like ours and had "good" people and "bad" people. Talk about an argument that fails.

As for what people took away from this show why does it bother you that I took away something different then what you did? I figure that there was a wide range of reactions to this series and that a lot of people took different things away from the show.

For me Chernobyl was a powerful indictment of the Soviet Communist System. Nothing more and nothing less. You seem offended by that. I'm not sure why.
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  #66  
Old 06-04-19, 07:30 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by OhioBobcatFan06 View Post
Just got around to watching the final episode.. in ending credits it was mentioned Gorbachev said in 2007 Chernobyl was cause for fall of USSR... whatís thought process behind that?
I'm guessing that part of Gorbachev's motivation for saying what he said was prompted by the fact that he didn't want to credit Reagan's military buildup and their defeat in Afghanistan with bringing down the Soviet Union.

But I do think Chernobyl contributed to the collapse. The reason was that Soviet citizens were rightly proud of their scientific & engineering achievements. From the first man in space to numerous mega infrastructure projects they felt that in spite of not having all the material comforts of the West they could still match the West in things that mattered. Chernobyl was a huge shock to the average Soviet citizen and Party member.
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  #67  
Old 06-04-19, 08:52 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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It's not even race they're complaining about. It's "color." yikes. There were Russians and Ukrainians, even an Armenian. I don't think they'd appreciate being called the same race. Nor probably not even the same color.


Back to the show.



Media is saying Jared Harris (Legasov) should be pushed for Emmy. I thought he sold it well, borderline arrogant, slightly autistic we might generally think a scientist of that caliber. My favorite though was Emily Watson (Khomyuk) but I'm not sure if it was her performance or I just really liked that character.


Mine Guy: I don't think they have an Emmy for sarcasm in full swinging frontal so to him, an Honorary Lifetime Achievement.
I thought Harris was really good. One of the better acting jobs I've seen in a while. It is incredibly tough to pull of that brainiac, slightly socially awkward scientist type, without overdoing it and he pulled it off well.
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  #68  
Old 06-04-19, 08:57 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I'm guessing that part of Gorbachev's motivation for saying what he said was prompted by the fact that he didn't want to credit Reagan's military buildup and their defeat in Afghanistan with bringing down the Soviet Union.

But I do think Chernobyl contributed to the collapse. The reason was that Soviet citizens were rightly proud of their scientific & engineering achievements. From the first man in space to numerous mega infrastructure projects they felt that in spite of not having all the material comforts of the West they could still match the West in things that mattered. Chernobyl was a huge shock to the average Soviet citizen and Party member.
I cannot imagine the resources they had to use for the Chernobyl disaster.
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  #69  
Old 06-05-19, 08:00 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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I cannot imagine the resources they had to use for the Chernobyl disaster.
They must have been immense and stretched the Soviet economy to the breaking point. Even worse in the eyes of the Soviet Central Committee was that the whole thing played out publicly. Advances in communications and the close proximity of the event to Western Europe meant that the Soviets couldn't hide what happened.

I've read stories of disasters that took place in Siberia & central Asia that were every bit as big or even bigger then Chernobyl. Hell, Soviet planning caused a sea, bigger then Lake Michigan, to dry up. Kazakhstan is still paying the environmental price of that disaster. Evidently the soviets had dumped all sorts of chemicals and weaponized biological agents into the Aral sea for decades and after it dried up they were carried on the wind throughout the region in sand storms. Love canal was a picnic compared to this.
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  #70  
Old 06-05-19, 02:38 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Love Canal being "a picnic" I guess means in your world, we are okay with more Love Canals? Relative measurement argument, seriously? One murder is ok if others are killing dozens? Again, you display no reasoning skill.

Valdez, Bhopal, Katrina, .... we have mountains burning in Penn and we've all, non-soviet, nice democratic republics been systematically and massively polluting Africa, S. America, Asia, even our own share of this continent. Heck, they hid corrosion in our very own Nuke plant here in Ohio, caught not much before disaster. How could these have possilbly occurred in LOTR's non Soviet countries? They must be fake news.

There's nothing about the soviet government that made it unique in this regard for those not crying wolf and looking to create bookeymen in which to scare their children. There are many inefficient things about the Soviet system (and liberalism) but your crying wolf and boogyman, preposteriously blaming them for everything ill under the sun diminishes the real reasons any rise of similar forms of government need challenge. They are your "racist." You egotistically dilute the message.

They could have chosen any disaster in any setting and their intended message, which you seem so desperate to ignore was simply

the cost of lies

Chernobyl has risen to the top of the IMDB chart and the hobbit will only be happy if he distorts the writers' intended message to his own propaganda train. smh
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  #71  
Old 06-05-19, 05:03 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Love Canal being "a picnic" I guess means in your world, we are okay with more Love Canals? Relative measurement argument, seriously? One murder is ok if others are killing dozens? Again, you display no reasoning skill.

Valdez, Bhopal, Katrina, .... we have mountains burning in Penn and we've all, non-soviet, nice democratic republics been systematically and massively polluting Africa, S. America, Asia, even our own share of this continent. Heck, they hid corrosion in our very own Nuke plant here in Ohio, caught not much before disaster. How could these have possilbly occurred in LOTR's non Soviet countries? They must be fake news.

There's nothing about the soviet government that made it unique in this regard for those not crying wolf and looking to create bookeymen in which to scare their children. There are many inefficient things about the Soviet system (and liberalism) but your crying wolf and boogyman, preposteriously blaming them for everything ill under the sun diminishes the real reasons any rise of similar forms of government need challenge. They are your "racist." You egotistically dilute the message.

They could have chosen any disaster in any setting and their intended message, which you seem so desperate to ignore was simply

the cost of lies

Chernobyl has risen to the top of the IMDB chart and the hobbit will only be happy if he distorts the writers' intended message to his own propaganda train. smh
I'm not sure why you're resorting to insults but two can play that game east.

The bottom line is that you would more fully appreciate how dumb you sound on this topic if you better educated yourself on the crimes of the Soviet Union. Your ignorance here is breathtaking. Everything about the Soviet government made it worse then the governments of the West in this area. EVERYTHING.

To claim that the unbelievable ecological disasters that have occurred in the Soviet Union over the years were similar in number, intensity, and resolution to those in the West is simply wrong. And yes the murder of thousands is a worse crime then the murder of one. Not sure why you would argue against something so obvious?

I find your need to defend the honor of the Soviet Union puzzling. I thought that went out of style back in the 1930's when American & European communists visited Stalin's utopia and came back with glowing reports. Was it Molotov who said something about "useful idiots"?

What's even more puzzling to me is why you're getting so upset that I took a different message from this series then you did. It's obvious to me that "Chernobyl" was first & foremost aimed at the problems of the Soviet communist system. I get your point but I just don't think it was the #1 takeaway from this story.
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  #72  
Old 06-05-19, 05:27 PM
arizonawildcat arizonawildcat is offline
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I generally consider myself a pretty smart guy when it comes to current events. But one of the things I learned from the series (which everyone else in the world already knew) was that Chernoble was located in The Ukraine and not Russia as I had previously thought. I wonder what the ratings will be like when the show is broadcast in The Ukraine.

Last edited by arizonawildcat; 06-05-19 at 05:43 PM.
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  #73  
Old 06-05-19, 05:40 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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What's even more puzzling to me is why you're getting so upset that I took a different message from this series then you did. It's obvious to me that "Chernobyl" was first & foremost aimed at the problems of the Soviet communist system. I get your point but I just don't think it was the #1 takeaway from this story.
Ok course it's obvious to you. You didn't TAKE anything from the show. You went in with your usual close-mindedness and added what you wanted to hear. The first and the last words of the series were

the cost of lies.

not

Soviet Union Boogeyman, Boo be afraid.

And I explained the danger and bufoonery of your cry wolf. As I said, it's your "racist." EVERYTHING is a red danger. Ooooohhh. Morons putting out that in propaganda form dilute the message of people who understand the real seductiveness and danger of such a system. So, upset? More frustrated. Not at your pathetic attempts on these boards but that there's a larger buffoonery attracting more get their thoughts from a shock jock wanna join a clubs. It is that blind approach that you're calling the Soviets. I suppose it is. Then your approach will probably result in major disaster for us all.

Like you ( and I) would easily roll eyes at the persistent calling of everything "racist," I roll my eyes at your persistent attempts to call anything and everything that can go wrong in a country being sourced in the politics of that country, unless it's ours and those in power happen to reflect your views. Then it's someone else's fault.

I roll my eyes at your dodging the question of how all those other monstrously large ecological disasters occurred without the assistance of a Soviet style government, how they happened under the watch of the shining light for democracy.

Yes, it's easy for you to purposely ignore the message the writers worked so hard to get across and distort it to your own blathering. I'd say it's also rude, sourced in on-line blogs and blind.

So "take" what you will from the story. Accept or not I argue it's buffoonery and blind unthinking dogma. Forget that nearly the first and the last words of the series were

the cost of lies.

Last edited by eastisbest; 06-05-19 at 05:53 PM.
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  #74  
Old 06-05-19, 05:58 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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I wonder what the ratings will be like when the show is broadcast in The Ukraine.
Here is an article. synopsis

It's streamed through HBO so limited access but a lot of attention from local media.



https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Euro...om-ground-zero
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  #75  
Old 06-05-19, 08:15 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Ok course it's obvious to you. You didn't TAKE anything from the show. You went in with your usual close-mindedness and added what you wanted to hear. The first and the last words of the series were

the cost of lies.

not

Soviet Union Boogeyman, Boo be afraid.

And I explained the danger and bufoonery of your cry wolf. As I said, it's your "racist." EVERYTHING is a red danger. Ooooohhh. Morons putting out that in propaganda form dilute the message of people who understand the real seductiveness and danger of such a system. So, upset? More frustrated. Not at your pathetic attempts on these boards but that there's a larger buffoonery attracting more get their thoughts from a shock jock wanna join a clubs. It is that blind approach that you're calling the Soviets. I suppose it is. Then your approach will probably result in major disaster for us all.

Like you ( and I) would easily roll eyes at the persistent calling of everything "racist," I roll my eyes at your persistent attempts to call anything and everything that can go wrong in a country being sourced in the politics of that country, unless it's ours and those in power happen to reflect your views. Then it's someone else's fault.

I roll my eyes at your dodging the question of how all those other monstrously large ecological disasters occurred without the assistance of a Soviet style government, how they happened under the watch of the shining light for democracy.

Yes, it's easy for you to purposely ignore the message the writers worked so hard to get across and distort it to your own blathering. I'd say it's also rude, sourced in on-line blogs and blind.

So "take" what you will from the story. Accept or not I argue it's buffoonery and blind unthinking dogma. Forget that nearly the first and the last words of the series were

the cost of lies.
The Soviet Union was the Boogyman. It's not my fault you haven't read enough history to see that. And describing the Soviet Union as a special kind of evil is not "crying wolf". It's supported by the documented events that took place from the birth until the death of this communist monstrosity.

And for the record I'm not "dodging" your points about other ecological disasters that have occurred in non-communist country's. I'm just appalled at your simplistic attempt to create false equivalences. Perfection dos not exist on earth. Every government system has behaved badly, suffered stifling bureaucracy and lied. But in all these things and others the Soviet Union was a monstrous example of evil on earth. Every bit as bad as Nazi Germany. That you can't or won't see this is your problem not mine.

And for the life of me I don't see how the words "the cost of lies" in any way lessons the notion that this series was about the special place in hell reserved for the Soviet State and its rulers. From its birth the Soviet Union was one enormous lie. And I think that was the point of this series.
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  #76  
Old 06-05-19, 08:38 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Couple of days late but just finished up the final episode. Near perfection. That's all that needs to be said really.
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  #77  
Old 06-05-19, 08:49 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Couple of days late but just finished up the final episode. Near perfection. That's all that needs to be said really.
I've already rewatched the first and it has just grown in context of all five. They way they handled the flashbacks was brilliant.
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  #78  
Old 06-06-19, 01:12 AM
Sig Hansen Sig Hansen is offline
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I'd say this is probably the best tv series/miniseries I have ever seen. My main takeaway from it all is that it's incredibly impressive the USSR lasted as long as it did. A country run by thousands of yes men.



Watch the documentary Babushkas of Chernobyl on amazon. It was quite moving
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  #79  
Old 06-06-19, 08:19 AM
arizonawildcat arizonawildcat is offline
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I understand that the Chernobyl area is now teeming with wildlife. True?
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Old 06-06-19, 08:33 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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I understand that the Chernobyl area is now teeming with wildlife. True?
That is true. Though it won't be for another 20 - 30 years before they see whether the continued exposure of radiation doesn't exert longer term negative effects on the wildlife particularly with reproduction.

It is fair to say that scientists are surprised by how quickly life has returned and apparently thrived in the exclusion zone. Explanations include:

* Much shorter lifespans of wildlife make them less susceptible to radiations cumulative effects then humans.

* Many of the "normal" causes of animals getting killed such as hunting, habitat destruction, food chain disruption (with pesticides), automobile kills etc are gone so the NET effect after radiation takes its toll is still positive.

* Life on Earth evolved to deal with radiation. The sun constantly bombards the earth with radiation and the planet periodically is bombarded by radioactive particles from distant suns exploding. So anything less then acute exposures to radiation can be adapted to.

I'll probably catch heat for saying this but one of the silver linings of the Chernobyl disaster is what we've learned about radiations effect on the biome.
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  #81  
Old 06-06-19, 09:03 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...rly-180950075/

Not enough studies have been conducted. Animals are migratory.

We still do not have a clue. This disaster will have adverse affects for hundreds of years. Life is more resilient than we ever seem to believe but the ecosystem is also far more fragile than we ever give it credit as well.
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  #82  
Old 06-06-19, 09:04 AM
ogealbhain ogealbhain is offline
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I understand that the Chernobyl area is now teeming with wildlife. True?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/t...nobyl-ukraine/
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  #83  
Old 06-06-19, 09:13 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...rly-180950075/

Not enough studies have been conducted. Animals are migratory.

We still do not have a clue. This disaster will have adverse affects for hundreds of years. Life is more resilient than we ever seem to believe but the ecosystem is also far more fragile than we ever give it credit as well.
The migratory aspect of some of the wildlife is a great point and it poses the question of how different would the recovery look if we were talking about the entire continent being poisoned. Hopefully we'll never find out.

And here's a couple of more articles:

https://www.sciencealert.com/chernob...th-years-later

Here's a recent one with the lady who contributed to the excellent NG article that ogealbhain posted:

https://www.treehugger.com/animals/c...ving-life.html
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  #84  
Old 06-06-19, 09:21 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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We still do not have a clue. This disaster will have adverse affects for hundreds of years. Life is more resilient than we ever seem to believe but the ecosystem is also far more fragile than we ever give it credit as well.
This is probably what evolution is designed to achieve. Life MUST be resilient and survive while the specific ecosystem isn't really that important. New ecosystems will form once the conditions stabilize and the "new" life has settled in.

The ability of ecosystems to shift dramatically and the life within the changing ecology to change and even thrive is a great survival attribute. On my land the previous owner used to graze cows & horses on one part. And every year he bush hogged what the animals didn't eat. But they stopped that and allowed it to revert to forest. The change has been spectacular. A complete shift in the ecosystem has resulted. Watching life take advantage of a new niche is amazing. I suspect that's what we're seeing here.
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  #85  
Old 06-06-19, 01:11 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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Here's a recent photo of a fish from a Ukrainian pond-

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  #86  
Old 06-06-19, 01:16 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Didn't they just sight Big Foot?


Have any of the researchers found cases in which part of a species survived? This would be evolution, presuming they can still breed. But I don't think they're saying anything "adapted." Nothing changed what it was to better cope with the new environment. No meta humans are appearing, lol.



Those things that survived were already capable. Those that weren't, aren't there anymore. Saying the "ecosystem" shifted would be a semantic argument but in this short of time, it's MY understanding of the concepts that "life" neither adapted nor evolved. It died or survived.

Hiroshima survived and thrived. Nagasaki survived and thrived. Were we to expect a dystopian desert to appear? It wasn't THAT serious. There's water. There's sun. People are alive that were very short distances away. Those "bullets" they are talking about are very directional and have very short distance-lives. If they had thought to have the sand carried between two helicoptors, they wouldn't have lost the one. For those in the way indirectly, iodine, a baby absorbed the poison well enough for many.

The danger was the air and ground water carrying the "guns." That's what got the people on the bridge. The wind. Once the air and water were capped,.... We're safe. After all, the containment building is designed for 100 years, lol. Uh oh.

Godzilla isn't going to pop out of the region but the long term studies will make some PhDs as they did in the other bombings and ecological incidents.

Last edited by eastisbest; 06-06-19 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 06-06-19, 02:47 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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This is probably what evolution is designed to achieve. Life MUST be resilient and survive while the specific ecosystem isn't really that important. New ecosystems will form once the conditions stabilize and the "new" life has settled in.

The ability of ecosystems to shift dramatically and the life within the changing ecology to change and even thrive is a great survival attribute. On my land the previous owner used to graze cows & horses on one part. And every year he bush hogged what the animals didn't eat. But they stopped that and allowed it to revert to forest. The change has been spectacular. A complete shift in the ecosystem has resulted. Watching life take advantage of a new niche is amazing. I suspect that's what we're seeing here.
You missed what I stated.

Life seems resilient while the ecosystem is quietly deteriorating. Read the link I provided about the rate of decay amongst trees and leaves and the insects that thrive on decay.

Everyone sees mammals living there and wants to jump to the conclusion that all is ok and the radiation is not as harmful as we originally thought when A). not enough studies have been conducted, and B). no its not.

As EIB mentions that 3 billion dollar sarcophagus will last 100 years. Then what? Build a bigger one? lol.
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Old 06-06-19, 03:25 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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You missed what I stated.

Life seems resilient while the ecosystem is quietly deteriorating. Read the link I provided about the rate of decay amongst trees and leaves and the insects that thrive on decay.

Everyone sees mammals living there and wants to jump to the conclusion that all is ok and the radiation is not as harmful as we originally thought when A). not enough studies have been conducted, and B). no its not.

As EIB mentions that 3 billion dollar sarcophagus will last 100 years. Then what? Build a bigger one? lol.
No I got it. Even at low doses radiation is a very effective antimicrobial. It makes sense that decomposition has slowed down. And you're right that it will be decades before a new steady state is achieved leading to a different ecosystem.

The challenge for researchers I suspect is that while the mircobiome damaging effects of radiation can harm an entire ecosystem there are also positive effects where the radiation damages pathogenic microorganisms. One would expect that both plant & animal microbial pathogens might be reduced leading to net beneficial effects on the ecosystem.
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Old 06-06-19, 04:46 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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The challenge for researchers I suspect is that while the mircobiome damaging effects of radiation can harm an entire ecosystem there are also positive effects where the radiation damages pathogenic microorganisms.
Where (do you feel) is the challenge for researchers? I think you might need to rework that sentence, you never got to your conclusion.

Researchers in this case would only be observers. Unlikely they would be doing poke and response unless one of them is named Mengele.
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One would expect that both plant & animal microbial pathogens might be reduced leading to net beneficial effects on the ecosystem.
One would not expect that unless they had evidence the pathogens were more susceptable to being killed below threshold than the things on which they feed.

ANY evidence of that?

Another possibility which is the common concern with anti-bacterials that the "really bad" pathogens that are held in check by other pathogens might then get a new lease if they are better able to sustain in the new environment. Then they'll multiply even in the reduced food source environment.


We need to bubble boy that place. OR we'll just let it grow and we'll become a species of walking upright bugs. Not my problem, my frozen genome will be headed towards alpha centuri by that time.
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Old 06-06-19, 05:04 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Where (do you feel) is the challenge for researchers? I think you might need to rework that sentence, you never got to your conclusion.



Researchers in this case would only be observers. Unlikely they would be doing poke and response unless one of them is named Mengele.







One would not expect that unless they had evidence the pathogens were more susceptable to being killed below threshold than the things on which they feed.


ANY evidence of that?


Another possibility which is the common concern with anti-bacterials that the "really bad" pathogens that are held in check by other pathogens might then get a new lease if they are better able to sustain in the new environment.
The challenge to researchers is the same one facing any scientists exploring complex natural phenomena - competing variables and the impact of that competition on dynamic system outcomes.

Evaluating these types of systems over time without perturbing the system is also a challenge. You may refer to it as only "observing" but it's a lot more than that. It undoubtedly involves sampling & measuring all sorts of stuff to track the changing conditions. And as IB's article described there would be carefully run proactive experiments that involve poking & prodding the system. All of this is laborious work.

And I didn't mean that radioactive effects against pathogens would completely cancel out the radiations negative effects. But there would be a give & take situation in which the benefits of reducing the pathogenic microbial load in a given ecosystem compete with the damage done to the beneficial microbes in the same system. This will lead to an overall effect that could be worse, better or no different then before the radiation appeared.

You're right to point out that the balance of microbial systems is important and anything that knocks it out of wack could make things WORSE or BETTER. Sure pathogens could run amok as their natural constraints are destroyed. But the opposite can also happen. That's why studying the microbiome impact of the radiation within a large natural setting is so important. And we probably won't know the answer for decades. But it is safe to say that the impact has not been all negative which I think has surprised some scientists.
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