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  #3691  
Old 09-18-18, 03:40 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Is this an attempt to resurrect his starting career, or a chance to showcase him for trade purposes?? Best of luck to him.
And another good bat in the lineup.
It's an attempt to appease him. He wants to start. The Reds aren't trying to win so why not?
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  #3692  
Old 09-18-18, 04:21 PM
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eastside_purple eastside_purple is offline
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FINALLY!!! Lorenzen gets a start tonight.
Bat him 4th!
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  #3693  
Old 09-18-18, 04:34 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
Yeah, the reds just arenít going to spend money on two legit TOR starters, thatís just asinine to expect. What they can do, is look at how the Rays had success this year by unconventionally managing their rotation by having a planned pitching relay. This strategy could be effective in Cincinnati as we seem to have a glut of guys who can effectively go full-out 2-3 innings.
I have heard it thrown around. More so in the beginning of the season when quality starts were truly few and far between and the bullpen was really racking up innings. Basically a start by committee. Don't really need an ace in that model. We seem to have a plethora of guys who are good for about 1 time through the lineup.
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  #3694  
Old 09-19-18, 08:55 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Nice start by Lorenzen, not really sure what the difference is between him starting and going 4 innings/ 50 pitches and throwing innings 4-5-6....
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  #3695  
Old 09-19-18, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Nice start by Lorenzen, not really sure what the difference is between him starting and going 4 innings/ 50 pitches and throwing innings 4-5-6....
The HUGE difference is that he is frequently pitching innings 4-5-6 when we are trailing 6-1 after another sad outing by a lesser pitcher. A waste of one of your best pitchers.

And as for the "this is to appease him" comment by Indiandad, maybe so. But more likely someone finally woke up, looked at the numbers and said "hey, this guy is one of our 4-5 best pitchers. Let's put him in the rotation." If he doesn't get a fair shot at the rotation next spring, it is pure stupidity.

I've said it a hundred times, give your best pitchers more innings so that they can have the biggest impact on winning. it is not rocket science.
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  #3696  
Old 09-19-18, 10:56 AM
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eastside_purple eastside_purple is offline
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Lorenzen definitely should get more innings than Romano and probably more at bats than Hamilton.
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  #3697  
Old 09-19-18, 11:31 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
The HUGE difference is that he is frequently pitching innings 4-5-6 when we are trailing 6-1 after another sad outing by a lesser pitcher. A waste of one of your best pitchers.

And as for the "this is to appease him" comment by Indiandad, maybe so. But more likely someone finally woke up, looked at the numbers and said "hey, this guy is one of our 4-5 best pitchers. Let's put him in the rotation." If he doesn't get a fair shot at the rotation next spring, it is pure stupidity.

I've said it a hundred times, give your best pitchers more innings so that they can have the biggest impact on winning. it is not rocket science.
I believe Lorenzen started the season on the DL.
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  #3698  
Old 09-20-18, 06:26 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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The Reds have a bunch of 2 pitch pitchers. This is why the 3rd time thru the lineup they get hammered. It's also a league wide issue. I saw an article that said the Diamondbacks lead the league in highest average innings from starters at 5.7. The Reds get 5.1 per.
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  #3699  
Old 09-20-18, 07:56 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
The Reds have a bunch of 2 pitch pitchers. This is why the 3rd time thru the lineup they get hammered. It's also a league wide issue. I saw an article that said the Diamondbacks lead the league in highest average innings from starters at 5.7. The Reds get 5.1 per.
I think you'll see teams continue to use the bullpen sooner and sooner. Metrics say that the opponents batting average continues to climb as a pitcher goes through the lineup more.
The whole pitch count thing just keeps kids from developing any stamina or other pitches.
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  #3700  
Old 09-20-18, 10:13 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Matt Harvey keeps getting more available with each start.
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  #3701  
Old 09-20-18, 11:15 AM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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I don't know what is meant by "getting more available with each start". please explain.

He had 3 good starts in the middle of August, then a terrible one. Then 3 decent starts to begin Sept, then last night's stinker. How do you mean "more available"?

Do you mean the Reds should be less likely to want to keep him and pay him? So he is more available to other teams? I hope that is the case.
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  #3702  
Old 09-20-18, 04:08 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
I don't know what is meant by "getting more available with each start". please explain.

He had 3 good starts in the middle of August, then a terrible one. Then 3 decent starts to begin Sept, then last night's stinker. How do you mean "more available"?

Do you mean the Reds should be less likely to want to keep him and pay him? So he is more available to other teams? I hope that is the case.
Is there a price at which you'd be willing to sign Harvey for 2 yrs?
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  #3703  
Old 09-20-18, 04:41 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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First off, let me admit that I know nothing about what comparable pitchers currently earn, so take what I say with that in mind.

MH has clearly gotten better as a pitcher during his time with the Reds. His ERA (starting @ 7.00 with the Mets) has gotten better each month since then, with each month registering in the 4 range and going lower each month. I see him as a dependable starter who knows how to pitch and can serve as an example to some of the younger guys.

What would I offer? Since he's a free agent, I would offer in the neighborhood of $10 million since the price for decent starting pitching has become a joke. If that's not good enough, then so be it.
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  #3704  
Old 09-20-18, 04:54 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
First off, let me admit that I know nothing about what comparable pitchers currently earn, so take what I say with that in mind.

MH has clearly gotten better as a pitcher during his time with the Reds. His ERA (starting @ 7.00 with the Mets) has gotten better each month since then, with each month registering in the 4 range and going lower each month. I see him as a dependable starter who knows how to pitch and can serve as an example to some of the younger guys.

What would I offer? Since he's a free agent, I would offer in the neighborhood of $10 million since the price for decent starting pitching has become a joke. If that's not good enough, then so be it.
I would add that the Reds should sign him at that only if they have added 2 TOR pitchers either in FA or by trade. Harvey makes sense as a #4 or #5 starter on a contender.
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  #3705  
Old 09-21-18, 08:32 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
I don't know what is meant by "getting more available with each start". please explain.

He had 3 good starts in the middle of August, then a terrible one. Then 3 decent starts to begin Sept, then last night's stinker. How do you mean "more available"?

Do you mean the Reds should be less likely to want to keep him and pay him? So he is more available to other teams? I hope that is the case.
Let's face it, if Harvey was lights out and pitched great, the Reds would have 0 shot at resigning him. He'd go to LA/ Chicago or Boston and sign a $150 mill contract.

However, with him being up and down, the Reds have a chance of possibly signing him to team friendly, one year deal and he may end up working out. In no case do I sign him long term.
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  #3706  
Old 09-21-18, 11:23 AM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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OK I agree with all that. Sign him only for the right price, short-term, and only if you are trying to win next year. He is not an ace but he could be a valuable middle of rotation (3-4) in my opinion.

What is the right price? No more than $6-8M per year for 1-2 years IMO. If he wants more, wish him good luck elsewhere.

Want to hear something interesting?

Current contracts of studs:
- Kluber - may win another Cy Young - making 7.7M per year on his contract which ends 2020.
- Sale - dominant when healthy - making 6.5M per year, contract ends 2020
- Bumgardner - 7M per year - ends 2020
- DeGrom - 7.4M per year - ends 2021

Bargains!
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  #3707  
Old 09-21-18, 01:30 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
OK I agree with all that. Sign him only for the right price, short-term, and only if you are trying to win next year. He is not an ace but he could be a valuable middle of rotation (3-4) in my opinion.

What is the right price? No more than $6-8M per year for 1-2 years IMO. If he wants more, wish him good luck elsewhere.

Want to hear something interesting?

Current contracts of studs:
- Kluber - may win another Cy Young - making 7.7M per year on his contract which ends 2020.
- Sale - dominant when healthy - making 6.5M per year, contract ends 2020
- Bumgardner - 7M per year - ends 2020
- DeGrom - 7.4M per year - ends 2021

Bargains!
Where did you get your information?
According to spotrac and baseball-reference, those salaries aren't even close!
I would suggest you re-check your sources.
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  #3708  
Old 09-21-18, 01:47 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Here are some links to those contracts:
Kluber https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/clevelan...y-kluber-8504/
2018 salary is $10,700,000 2019 salary is $15,200,000

Sale https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/boston-r...ris-sale-7278/
2018 salary is $12,500,000 2019 salary is $15,000,000 (club option)

Bumgarner https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/san-fran...umgarner-7510/
2018 salary is $12,000,000 2019 salary is $12,000,000 (club option)

DeGrom's info is accurate.

Last edited by Monclova Steve; 09-21-18 at 02:00 PM..
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  #3709  
Old 09-21-18, 03:21 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
Where did you get your information?
According to spotrac and baseball-reference, those salaries aren't even close!
I would suggest you re-check your sources.
Those were probably average salaries over the life of the contracts.
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  #3710  
Old 09-21-18, 03:25 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Matt Harvey: 2 yrs/$19M 3rd yr team option for $14M with $2M buyout.

Anyone else care to guess?


I'd be Ok with a deal like this if he is rounding out a contending rotation.
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  #3711  
Old 09-21-18, 04:34 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Those were probably average salaries over the life of the contracts.
If that's the case, then the numbers are irrelevant to today's prices. If the Reds' front office tries to use numbers like that to make offers to free agents, we're going to be looking at the same faces in spring training.
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  #3712  
Old 09-21-18, 04:43 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Matt Harvey: 2 yrs/$19M 3rd yr team option for $14M with $2M buyout.

Anyone else care to guess?


I'd be Ok with a deal like this if he is rounding out a contending rotation.
Not bad. That 3rd year seems a little pricey, but if he met certain performance standards I'd have little problem with it.
The Reds have to face facts. The big pile of young starting pitchers just hasn't produced the quality starting rotation that they had hoped. Yes, there are a few (Desclafani, Castillo, Reed, Lorenzen) that may fill the spots, but that is making a LOT of assumptions.
I agree that 2 FAs are needed.
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  #3713  
Old 09-21-18, 10:10 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
Not bad. That 3rd year seems a little pricey, but if he met certain performance standards I'd have little problem with it.
The Reds have to face facts. The big pile of young starting pitchers just hasn't produced the quality starting rotation that they had hoped. Yes, there are a few (Desclafani, Castillo, Reed, Lorenzen) that may fill the spots, but that is making a LOT of assumptions.
I agree that 2 FAs are needed.
In this scenario, the 3rd year is a team option with a $2M buyout so essentially it becomes a 2 year $21M contract and if he returns to form then the 3rd year would be a bargain.

At best (for Harvey) he would be getting a 3 yr/$33M deal. Not bad....
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  #3714  
Old 09-22-18, 08:10 AM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Luis Castillo, last 15 games:
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHIP

Pretty good case for a rotation spot in 2019.
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  #3715  
Old 09-22-18, 09:04 AM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Matt Harvey: 2 yrs/$19M 3rd yr team option for $14M with $2M buyout.

Anyone else care to guess?


I'd be Ok with a deal like this if he is rounding out a contending rotation.
Yes, that's a big if though knowing the Reds. I haven't seen anything from the front office that suggest they expect to have a winner on the field next season. Granted there is a lot of offseason ahead of us.
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  #3716  
Old 09-22-18, 02:38 PM
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Youíre on drugs if you think the Reds will spend $10m/yr on Harvey AND two top of the rotation FAs. Why not talk about building the new Reds stadium on Mars?
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  #3717  
Old 09-22-18, 04:16 PM
brianwr112 brianwr112 is online now
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
Youíre on drugs if you think the Reds will spend $10m/yr on Harvey AND two top of the rotation FAs. Why not talk about building the new Reds stadium on Mars?
Totally agree. And I'm a huge Reds fan but I'm really starting to question what some of the people in this board expect from the team next year? They're the third worst team in the NL and double digits behind the next closest team in the NL Central. 4th place, maybe 3rd, in the NLC seems like a better goal than "contender".
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  #3718  
Old 09-22-18, 04:37 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Silly me. I've never been a rose-colored glasses kind of guy. In fact, I've predicted (within 3 games, anyway) the Reds' W/L record for the past 4 years. I see this team's starting lineup as ready to contend -- especially with Sensel coming along; I see the bullpen the same way; I only see the poor starting rotation as a barrier to contending for a post-season berth.
Adding a proven starter along with Harvey to a group consisting of Lorenzen, Reed, Castillo, and Desclafani should be enough to boost the Reds into contention.
Agree or disagree, but if you think that's far-fetched please feel free to express yourself by making some points instead of just casting aspersions.
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  #3719  
Old 09-22-18, 10:28 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Youíre on drugs if you think the Reds will spend $10m/yr on Harvey AND two top of the rotation FAs. Why not talk about building the new Reds stadium on Mars?
They are allowed to trade for TOR pitching.
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  #3720  
Old 09-23-18, 04:14 PM
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Adam Duvall/ last 30 games 5 for 45 .111 average 0 HR 0 Rbi. Overall hitting .191
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