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  #61  
Old 04-19-18, 11:34 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
An issue that's hard to factor is that the typical teacher is doing a lot of work beyond the 8 hrs/day, 186 days a year..but it veries significantly dependent on curriculum, years doing the same/similar job, etc. If you've been in the same position for 15+ years with minimal curriculum/bureacracy changes and max education, it can be cushy. If you're young/new and have to deal with a lot of "extras", the pay is pretty weak relative to educational attainment and the "extra" hours that's required to survive in the job.

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This is the reason many schools are having a hard time retaining young, eager teachers to stay in districts. Once you've been a teacher 10 or 15+ years, yea it's pretty nice. But with the constant changes in testing, teacher evaluations, curriculum, and fighting the battles with kids and parents on cell phones, etc, it burns those young eager teachers out. And with the state constantly trying to cut funding and schools not wanting to pay teachers, it makes the job look pretty uninspiring to do in the first place. This is why many schools either have the 20 year plus veteran who lost interest years ago or the inexperienced recent college grad teaching their kid.
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  #62  
Old 04-19-18, 11:46 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by CometCountry View Post
Not sure what you mean about per hour wage, but if a 4 year student lives at home it likely would cost approximately $10,000 a year for tuition--if a student lives at school it could cost $25,000-$30,000 a year. Earning a professional degree I believe teachers are professionals just like a business person who would be on a salary rather than a per hour wage--just sayin.
No debate on anything you said. The variance is how much time the degree holding business person is required to work in order to have their job and the amount of time a teacher is required to work in order to have their job.

Last edited by spirit454; 04-19-18 at 06:36 PM.
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  #63  
Old 04-19-18, 08:51 PM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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As a teacher / coach / athletic admin I will say that the plus side for the external coach is that your day job is not tied to your teaching job. In some cases your teaching job could / can be tied to your coaching duties and if you fail on the court or field your 9 to 5 could be stripped from you as well. Don't see that happen often though but being detached from the daily happenings of the school can be beneficial sometimes.

Having a coach "in house" does make it easier to get a lot of administrative tasks accomplished during school hours though. As a classroom teacher I know first hand that it is easier to "control or monitor" student - athlete behavior if the coach is a few classroom doors down. Student athletes respond differently when their coach is outside the building.

While grades are online these days only counselors, admins, parents and teachers of that child are privy to that information. An "adjunct coach" as they are termed these days s not granted direct access to this information. They still need to obtain information from someone else.

As others have mentioned there is not a one size fits all solution here. I teach in a school of close to 1,800 students in a school district of 14 high schools in a mid major metro area in the South. A small rural school in NW or SE Ohio may have a difficult time finding the right candidate when faced with a small hiring pool to select from. Often times you as an AD are faced with the stack of resumes you have in front of you and you have only those resumes to sort through. I remember 6 years ago we had a volleyball coach step down after 5 years of coaching to start a family. She had won back to back conf titles her last two seasons. We opened the search for a new coach and received ZERO resumes for a job that had an appropriate feeder system, all or most of the girls played travel / club and they were becoming a VERY competitive program. ZERO resumes. We finally convinced the girls basketball coach to take over volleyball as well as she had been a successful volleyball player in high school (although she played basketball in college) but only after an exhaustive effort to find someone....anyone!!!! haha. I've seen AD's take over smaller programs such as golf or tennis when no other body was available just so the kids could have a season. You hire sometimes what you have is the point.
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  #64  
Old 04-20-18, 07:57 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Great points scbuckeye. Everyone forgets there are other sports besides Football and Boys Basketball. Other sports (especially women's sports, no offense) don't always have a great pool of qualified applicants, let alone qualified applicants that can/want to teach. The school I teach at is a very large suburb of Cleveland (Division I, DII football), and besides the football and boys basketball, only the baseball, softball and wrestling coaches are in the building. Everyone else is an outside coach. Sometimes the applicants aren't there and you have no choice but to hire from outside.
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  #65  
Old 04-20-18, 08:27 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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In the district I live in we have 21 varsity sports. In those 21 sports, 6 of the head coaches are in the building and none of those include the football, boys basketball, softball or wrestling, since those sports were mentioned. I did not count but my estimation is if I verified every sports staff 7th grade to varsity, the number of outside coaches would be higher than teachers who coach.
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  #66  
Old 04-20-18, 11:18 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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I don't doubt that. But (and we will never know) I would love to know the data on number of applicants received for some of those positions where coaches outside of the school were hired and if anyone in the school or district applied. Like someone mentioned previously, some sports take who they can get, especially less popular sports like bowling, tennis, etc.
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  #67  
Old 04-20-18, 02:12 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
I don't doubt that. But (and we will never know) I would love to know the data on number of applicants received for some of those positions where coaches outside of the school were hired and if anyone in the school or district applied. Like someone mentioned previously, some sports take who they can get, especially less popular sports like bowling, tennis, etc.
I do know that the football, tennis, basketball and golf positions had inside building candidates that were not hired.
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  #68  
Old 04-20-18, 05:03 PM
Myron Myron is offline
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In house coach really cuts down on headaches and problems compared to when the coach is not in the building
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  #69  
Old 04-20-18, 10:25 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Myron View Post
In house coach really cuts down on headaches and problems compared to when the coach is not in the building
Most of the head coaches that I know who work in the building still have a job during the school day so no serious headaches ever get solved until after hours.
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  #70  
Old 04-21-18, 07:11 AM
Myron Myron is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
most of the head coaches that i know who work in the building still have a job during the school day so no serious headaches ever get solved until after hours.
😂
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  #71  
Old 04-21-18, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Myron View Post
😂
Exactly, some of you think that if a kid is in trouble a coach who is in the building can drop everything and go spend time dealing with the troubled youth. Iíve been in the building, this is not close to being the case.
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  #72  
Old 04-21-18, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Pretty good article from a Cleveland new site I just saw. Only talks about the major cities in Ohio and suburbs in Northeast Ohio, but still relevant to my point. Remember these are the AVERAGE salaries. That means that some teachers make more and others make less. Again, depends on level of education and years experience.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/...icts-statewide

Average salaries.

- Akron City Schools: $59,653 -- Continuous Improvement
- Cincinnati Schools: $64,638 -- Continuous Improvement
- Dayton Schools: $52,324 -- Academic Watch
- Toledo Schools: $55,780 -- Academic Watch
- Columbus Schools: $67,167 -- Continuous Improvement

- Cleveland Heights-University Heights: $69,602 -- Continuous Improvement
- Brunswick: $59,393 -- Excellent
- Medina: $70,988 -- Excellent
- Euclid: $64,981 -- Continuous Improvement
- Hudson: $72,901 -- Excellent
- Mentor: $66,760 -- Excellent with Distinction
- Twinsburg: $65,612 -- Excellent
- Westlake: $71,274 -- Excellent with Distinction
- Shaker Heights: $73,191 -- Effective

EDIT: This article is from 2013-14 I just realized. So actually salaries have probably gone up for cost of living increases.
These averages don't tell me much. First, they don't include the average years of experience. Could very well be that the average years of experience in the suburban schools is significantly higher than that of the urban schools, thus elevating the average salary.

Second, outliers could significantly increase or decrease an average; especially in smaller districts.

About the topic....teacher vs. outside hire....there are many positions in a school besides teacher, so I would think of it in terms of inside vs outside hire. McKinley intends to hire a basketball coach who will be in the building, but has also clearly stated that the new hire may not be a teacher.
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  #73  
Old 04-22-18, 07:55 AM
Myron Myron is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Exactly, some of you think that if a kid is in trouble a coach who is in the building can drop everything and go spend time dealing with the troubled youth. Iíve been in the building, this is not close to being the case.
Ah, I thought you were referring to teaching in general as a headache in your original post.

I guess Iíll clarify my initial belief: just having the head coach in the facility from 7:30-3:00 prevents a lot of problems from occurring in the first place. The programs in our school that has had the most issues have always been ones where the coach is out-of-building...and typically not an educator whatsoever.

But at least thatís the experience I have seen in my particular school. Each school district certainly has different behavioral and parental dynamics
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  #74  
Old 04-22-18, 08:03 AM
sehs sehs is offline
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I would love to see a list of head coaching stipends. Also something to note, the average Catholic high school salary is significantly less than all of the numbers presented from Channel 5. This fact is one that gets lost in some of that debate.

To the topic at hand, I would argue generally it helps more than anything to have a coach in the building. However, the schools need to look at the workloads that they place on their normal teachers and then look at how much that adds to a coach's. I would be in favor of a modified structure if you were a head coach for a varsity sport in schools. Perhaps not teaching as many classes or working in the school in some other capacity as a previous poster mentioned. Teachers already have a schedule that includes plenty of work outside of their normal days. That can double in season for a coach.
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  #75  
Old 04-22-18, 09:16 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Myron View Post
Ah, I thought you were referring to teaching in general as a headache in your original post.

I guess Iíll clarify my initial belief: just having the head coach in the facility from 7:30-3:00 prevents a lot of problems from occurring in the first place. The programs in our school that has had the most issues have always been ones where the coach is out-of-building...and typically not an educator whatsoever.

But at least thatís the experience I have seen in my particular school. Each school district certainly has different behavioral and parental dynamics
What type of program issues? Are you saying the athletes get into trouble because their coach is not in the building?
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  #76  
Old 04-22-18, 09:26 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by sehs View Post
I would love to see a list of head coaching stipends. Also something to note, the average Catholic high school salary is significantly less than all of the numbers presented from Channel 5. This fact is one that gets lost in some of that debate.

To the topic at hand, I would argue generally it helps more than anything to have a coach in the building. However, the schools need to look at the workloads that they place on their normal teachers and then look at how much that adds to a coach's. I would be in favor of a modified structure if you were a head coach for a varsity sport in schools. Perhaps not teaching as many classes or working in the school in some other capacity as a previous poster mentioned. Teachers already have a schedule that includes plenty of work outside of their normal days. That can double in season for a coach.
HAHAHAHA!!!
As compared to a person working a full-time job and being a head coach not in the building. You may be correct, all the head coaches that do not work in the building are probably only part time employees.

Last edited by spirit454; 04-22-18 at 10:41 AM.
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  #77  
Old 04-22-18, 11:24 AM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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Originally Posted by sehs View Post
I would love to see a list of head coaching stipends. Also something to note, the average Catholic high school salary is significantly less than all of the numbers presented from Channel 5. This fact is one that gets lost in some of that debate.

To the topic at hand, I would argue generally it helps more than anything to have a coach in the building. However, the schools need to look at the workloads that they place on their normal teachers and then look at how much that adds to a coach's. I would be in favor of a modified structure if you were a head coach for a varsity sport in schools. Perhaps not teaching as many classes or working in the school in some other capacity as a previous poster mentioned. Teachers already have a schedule that includes plenty of work outside of their normal days. That can double in season for a coach.

From the coaching salary schedule for my school district (In South Carolina). I should point first that we operate on a tiered system for coaching based on 3 tiers using years of experience at that specific position.

Head Football: (0-3 years) $9,027.00, (4-7 years) $11,607.00, (8+ years) $14,183.00

Two years ago the School Board voted to put in place a performance based bonus pay system for football coaches. I don't know all the numbers on it but for making the playoffs every varsity football coach gets an additional $1,000.00 check. Winning a state title? not sure haha. (considering when football season ends that extra grand comes in handy come christmas shopping season haha).

Head Boys Basketball: (0-3 years) $6,450.00, (4-7 years) $7,739.00, (8+ years) $9,027.00

Strength and Conditioning Coach: (no tier, flat rate regardless of years experience) $6,180.00

There are 14 high schools in my district. NONE of the HFC positions are tied to the AD position. In fact to my knowledge only about 4 or at most 5 of the AD's across the district coach a sport and NONE coach football. The AD position is NOT administrative pay wise. They receive whatever their teaching salary would be PLUS a $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 stipend for their AD duties depending on experience at that position. Some of the AD's teach, some don't. If they do have a course load to teach it is normally only 2 classes if that school is on a 7 period a day schedule and normally only one class if that school is on a 4 block schedule. I'll again point out that MOST of the AD's like mine do not teach during the day BUT their building principal at his or her discretion may have them teach something based on their certification.

The HFC position in my district normally only teaches half day. Our HFC at my school teaches 4 classes in a 7 period day and one of those classes YES is Football (its a PE elective).

Sometimes the HFC position will be coupled with the Strength and Conditioning position. Not normally but at some schools it is. My school has our own S&T guy who serves as a non-certified PE teacher who only teaches Weightlifting class. Our athletic booster club pays for his position so no tax payer funds are used for a non-certified position in this case. Just in case people were worried about local tax dollars going towards a non-certified teaching / athletic position.
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  #78  
Old 04-22-18, 10:11 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
From the coaching salary schedule for my school district (In South Carolina). I should point first that we operate on a tiered system for coaching based on 3 tiers using years of experience at that specific position.

Head Football: (0-3 years) $9,027.00, (4-7 years) $11,607.00, (8+ years) $14,183.00

Two years ago the School Board voted to put in place a performance based bonus pay system for football coaches. I don't know all the numbers on it but for making the playoffs every varsity football coach gets an additional $1,000.00 check. Winning a state title? not sure haha. (considering when football season ends that extra grand comes in handy come christmas shopping season haha).

Head Boys Basketball: (0-3 years) $6,450.00, (4-7 years) $7,739.00, (8+ years) $9,027.00

Strength and Conditioning Coach: (no tier, flat rate regardless of years experience) $6,180.00

There are 14 high schools in my district. NONE of the HFC positions are tied to the AD position. In fact to my knowledge only about 4 or at most 5 of the AD's across the district coach a sport and NONE coach football. The AD position is NOT administrative pay wise. They receive whatever their teaching salary would be PLUS a $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 stipend for their AD duties depending on experience at that position. Some of the AD's teach, some don't. If they do have a course load to teach it is normally only 2 classes if that school is on a 7 period a day schedule and normally only one class if that school is on a 4 block schedule. I'll again point out that MOST of the AD's like mine do not teach during the day BUT their building principal at his or her discretion may have them teach something based on their certification.

The HFC position in my district normally only teaches half day. Our HFC at my school teaches 4 classes in a 7 period day and one of those classes YES is Football (its a PE elective).

Sometimes the HFC position will be coupled with the Strength and Conditioning position. Not normally but at some schools it is. My school has our own S&T guy who serves as a non-certified PE teacher who only teaches Weightlifting class. Our athletic booster club pays for his position so no tax payer funds are used for a non-certified position in this case. Just in case people were worried about local tax dollars going towards a non-certified teaching / athletic position.
Does your football play in the fall and spring?
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  #79  
Old 04-23-18, 06:15 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
From the coaching salary schedule for my school district (In South Carolina). I should point first that we operate on a tiered system for coaching based on 3 tiers using years of experience at that specific position.

Head Football: (0-3 years) $9,027.00, (4-7 years) $11,607.00, (8+ years) $14,183.00

Two years ago the School Board voted to put in place a performance based bonus pay system for football coaches. I don't know all the numbers on it but for making the playoffs every varsity football coach gets an additional $1,000.00 check. Winning a state title? not sure haha. (considering when football season ends that extra grand comes in handy come christmas shopping season haha).

Head Boys Basketball: (0-3 years) $6,450.00, (4-7 years) $7,739.00, (8+ years) $9,027.00

Strength and Conditioning Coach: (no tier, flat rate regardless of years experience) $6,180.00

There are 14 high schools in my district. NONE of the HFC positions are tied to the AD position. In fact to my knowledge only about 4 or at most 5 of the AD's across the district coach a sport and NONE coach football. The AD position is NOT administrative pay wise. They receive whatever their teaching salary would be PLUS a $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 stipend for their AD duties depending on experience at that position. Some of the AD's teach, some don't. If they do have a course load to teach it is normally only 2 classes if that school is on a 7 period a day schedule and normally only one class if that school is on a 4 block schedule. I'll again point out that MOST of the AD's like mine do not teach during the day BUT their building principal at his or her discretion may have them teach something based on their certification.

The HFC position in my district normally only teaches half day. Our HFC at my school teaches 4 classes in a 7 period day and one of those classes YES is Football (its a PE elective).

Sometimes the HFC position will be coupled with the Strength and Conditioning position. Not normally but at some schools it is. My school has our own S&T guy who serves as a non-certified PE teacher who only teaches Weightlifting class. Our athletic booster club pays for his position so no tax payer funds are used for a non-certified position in this case. Just in case people were worried about local tax dollars going towards a non-certified teaching / athletic position.
$14k to coach football? Most schools around here pay half that. Jesus
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Old 04-23-18, 07:21 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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$14k to coach football? Most schools around here pay half that. Jesus
That was the reason I asked about Fall and Spring. I know some southern states have added spring football to their schedule.
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Old 04-23-18, 07:40 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Just posted this weekend by cleveland.com. Average teacher salary in Ohio is $58k. You can look up any district in Ohio.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index..._district.html
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  #82  
Old 04-23-18, 07:56 AM
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Years of service would need to be known for this information to be applied to our discussion and career centers or tech schools would not factor into anything I have said. I do not believe they have hs sports in those buildings.
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Old 04-23-18, 08:14 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Just throwing it out there because it came up earlier in the thread for anyone that was interested in it. That's all
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  #84  
Old 04-23-18, 09:07 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Just throwing it out there because it came up earlier in the thread for anyone that was interested in it. That's all
That is why I was asking for the years of service. I believe what came up earlier in the thread was a comment about teachers making $60k-$80k that have 10-20 years in teaching.
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Old 04-23-18, 10:07 AM
MrGMC MrGMC is offline
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No debate on anything you said. The variance is how much time the degree holding business person is required to work in order to have their job and the amount of time a teacher is required to work in order to have their job.
You seem to act like teachers are only working 8 hr/day for 186 days and that's it. That is when they are contracted "to be at the school." The amount of time outside of class to lesson plan, grade, prepare classrooms is astronomically more. If you are only working the "required" time, you will not be a teacher very long.
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  #86  
Old 04-23-18, 11:55 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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You seem to act like teachers are only working 8 hr/day for 186 days and that's it. That is when they are contracted "to be at the school." The amount of time outside of class to lesson plan, grade, prepare classrooms is astronomically more. If you are only working the "required" time, you will not be a teacher very long.
All we can go by is the required time for a job. Don't be the person that thinks teachers are the only workforce that puts in extra time. I know many salaried employees that will put in 50-60 hours a week because it is needed but their pay is still set on the 40 hour requirement. I also know many teachers who put in hours other than the school day. It happens all over the place.
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  #87  
Old 04-24-18, 07:46 PM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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In South Carolina we do 3 weeks of "spring ball" in May and then regular fall football same time frame as Ohio. MOST schools do some sort of a spring game like colleges do at the end of the three weeks. About 10 years ago my school actually turned the spring game into a student "buy out" event. For the price of $2.00?? I think kids could get out of class in late May and go to the stadium (on campus) and watch the spring game. For whatever reason we stopped doing that haha. Lately we've been doing the spring game off campus or on the practice field to give the stadium field a chance to heal after all the beatings it takes during spring sports. I should point out that in South Carolina we play soccer both boys and girls in the Spring. And it rains A LOT!!! lol. We also do Lacrosse at my school in the spring like in Ohio. So soccer and lacrosse (boys, girls, varsity, jv) plus rain put a whooping on our game field during the spring. Thank the good lord May, June and July give it a chance to recover.
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Old 04-24-18, 07:51 PM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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Tribefan,


We hired a new super 3 years ago? who was a former coach and values interscholastic athletics one could say. So coaching stipends across the board went up a year after his appointment.

A school district next to mine got a new super from Georgia a few years ago and coaches in that district saw similar if not higher coaching stipends as well with their new guy. This new super in the district next to mine convinced the local government and school board to place a penny sales tax on items purchased inside the city limits. The money raised goes entirely towards sports in that district. As a result both high schools in that district got field turf, jumbotron scoreboards and on campus indoor playing facilities (wish i had pictures because their indoor facilities make OU, Miami, BG and Toledo's look like child's play).
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Old 05-02-18, 12:24 PM
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The southern schools that have spring and fall football will probably have higher stipends than those in Ohio who only play in the fall.
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Old 05-03-18, 06:10 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
Tribefan,


We hired a new super 3 years ago? who was a former coach and values interscholastic athletics one could say. So coaching stipends across the board went up a year after his appointment.

A school district next to mine got a new super from Georgia a few years ago and coaches in that district saw similar if not higher coaching stipends as well with their new guy. This new super in the district next to mine convinced the local government and school board to place a penny sales tax on items purchased inside the city limits. The money raised goes entirely towards sports in that district. As a result both high schools in that district got field turf, jumbotron scoreboards and on campus indoor playing facilities (wish i had pictures because their indoor facilities make OU, Miami, BG and Toledo's look like child's play).

That's a great idea to get funding for things like athletic facilities. Most districts (like one that I used to teach in) just want to put levies on the ballot every year to increase property taxes (which typically fail btw). The school I was at put 3 different levies to get a new football stadium and other athletic facilites and couldn't even get close to passing. Taxes are already high enough and I don't blame people for not wanting to vote for something like that. In Ohio, having turf on football (and eventually baseball) fields will become the norm in the next 5-10 years because of the awful weather we have at times. Great input.
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