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  #211  
Old 03-09-18, 11:20 AM
serpico serpico is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
I'm still trying to wrap my head around a 50% drop off compared to a much lesser drop off at a similar MAC school (DSJ) that is by the numbers the second best school to play in the conference.
Instead of trying to wrap your mind around it, maybe just consider that it's an extremely small sample size and maybe there just aren't any conclusions that can be drawn.

The towns that don't have midget football just don't want it. Their kids are busy enough and there is plenty of success without it.

I won't criticize any towns that have it, but as for me, I'd rather keep things the way they are.
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  #212  
Old 03-09-18, 05:08 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
While the MAC's recent success cannot be denied, one can point to Blue Jay Fan as his school contributed to the start and continuation of that success on a high level. Coldwater, Versailles, ML, SH, and Minster (maybe others I'm missing) have also had success, but one can also ask....how many of these kids played at the peewee level either in pads or flag football? How many went to Celina to play peewee? How many went to Lima or Wapak?
I can only speak for what I know. Out of the 23 seniors we had in 2012, I believe only 1 played youth football at Celina because he was still a student there during that time (Transferred in 7th grade).
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  #213  
Old 03-09-18, 10:47 PM
CJK84 CJK84 is offline
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^^^ slender running back Chapin?
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  #214  
Old 03-09-18, 10:53 PM
CJK84 CJK84 is offline
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I believe that to become great at a musical instrument like the violin, or to develop into a great hitter in baseball, or a tremendous 3-point shooter in basketball, a kid needs to start fairly early. Those skills often need to be honed over many years.

But the "skills" needed for the vast majority of positions and situations in football do not require years and years of development. I'm not strongly against youth programs (though I believe they can establish an unhealthy pecking order and possibly burn some kids out), but I don't think they're necessary.

I agree with Stirred that the biggest factor - probably by far - in the success of a hs program is the ability of the head coach.

Last edited by CJK84; 03-09-18 at 11:03 PM.
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  #215  
Old 03-09-18, 10:55 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by CJK84 View Post
^^^ slender running back Chapin?
Correct
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  #216  
Old 03-09-18, 10:58 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by CJK84 View Post
I believe that to become great at a musical instrument like the violin, or to develop into a great hitter in baseball, or a tremendous 3-point shooter in basketball, a kid needs to start fairly early. Those skills often need to be honed over many years.

But the "skills" needed for the vast majority of positions and situations in football do not require years and years of development. I'm not strongly against youth programs (though I believe they can establish an unhealthy pecking order and possibly burn some kids out), I don't think they're necessary.

I agree with Stirred that the biggest factor - probably by far - in the success of a hs program is the ability of the head coach.
I think I agree with everything stated here.
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  #217  
Old 03-09-18, 10:58 PM
CJK84 CJK84 is offline
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I attended the CW-Covington playoff game at Covington during Chapin's jr or sr season.

I recall one play in which he sprinted downfield and laid a devastating block on the Bucc safety to spring the Cav ballcarrier for a big gain - I think it was a td. The game was still fairly close at the time, so it was an important gain.

Anyway, it was a good play that stuck in my mind. Chapin did not appear to have a size advantage, but apparently had a grit advantage on that down - good MAC football.
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  #218  
Old 03-09-18, 11:11 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by CJK84 View Post
I attended the CW-Covington playoff game at Covington during Chapin's jr or sr season.

I recall one play in which he sprinted downfield and laid a devastating block on the Bucc safety to spring the Cav ballcarrier for a big gain - I think it was a td. The game was still fairly close at the time, so it was an important gain.

Anyway, it was a good play that stuck in my mind. Chapin did not appear to have a size advantage, but apparently had a grit advantage on that down - good MAC football.
He certainly played with a lot of heart. 3 year starter on defense if I remember correctly. Don't remember which Covington game that was but maybe I need to watch that 2012 game this weekend. That was a very hard hitting game. Covington was legitimate.
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  #219  
Old 03-09-18, 11:43 PM
CJK84 CJK84 is offline
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^^^ It was the 2011 game at Covington. I think Cavs won 24-7, but not sure.
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  #220  
Old 03-10-18, 12:39 AM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by cjk84 View Post
^^^ it was the 2011 game at covington. I think cavs won 24-7, but not sure.
31-7
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  #221  
Old 03-10-18, 04:09 AM
IndianaBanana IndianaBanana is offline
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I know for a fact that 6 Fort Recovery 2015 Grads played in Jay County's youth flag football league for a few years while in elementary.

3 Played in High School
2 Golfed
1 Was a girl


Not a clue if there have been anymore Indians that have or are currently playing over there.
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  #222  
Old 03-10-18, 08:01 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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I speak regularly with one of the best Coaches in the state (He is family and not from FR). The biggest point he drives home to his Jr high and jv coaches is give every kid a chance. Don't discourage any of them thru playing time. You never know which kid will develop into studs.

Leadership comes from the Head Coach but just as importantly you have to have coaches who understand what the goals are in the lower levels. Development is priority number 1. Winning does not matter.
It is difficult to find coaches who are willing to sacrifice wins for development. Jr High coaches have dreams of being Varsity coaches someday and think they have to show great win loss numbers to move up.

This is precisely why FR does not have a PeeWee program anymore. Coaches wanted to win rather than develop. It was bad for the PROGRAM.
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  #223  
Old 03-10-18, 08:40 AM
bigkat bigkat is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
I speak regularly with one of the best Coaches in the state (He is family and not from FR). The biggest point he drives home to hih and jv coaches is give every kid a chance. Don't discourage any of them thru playing time. You never know which kid will develop into studs.

Leadership comes from the Head Coach but just as importantly you have to have coaches who understand what the goals are in the lower levels. Development is priority number 1. Winning does not matter.
It is difficult to find coaches who are willing to sacrifice wins for development. Jr High coaches have dreams of being Varsity coaches someday and think they have to show great win loss numbers to move up.

This is precisely why FR does not have a PeeWee program anymore. Coaches wanted to win rather than develop. It was bad for the PROGRAM.
nobody remembers what your record was in JH, Freshman, or JV.....but you do remember your Varsity records....
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  #224  
Old 03-10-18, 07:34 PM
StateChampion2012 StateChampion2012 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
I speak regularly with one of the best Coaches in the state (He is family and not from FR). The biggest point he drives home to his Jr high and jv coaches is give every kid a chance. Don't discourage any of them thru playing time. You never know which kid will develop into studs.

Leadership comes from the Head Coach but just as importantly you have to have coaches who understand what the goals are in the lower levels. Development is priority number 1. Winning does not matter.
It is difficult to find coaches who are willing to sacrifice wins for development. Jr High coaches have dreams of being Varsity coaches someday and think they have to show great win loss numbers to move up.

This is precisely why FR does not have a PeeWee program anymore. Coaches wanted to win rather than develop. It was bad for the PROGRAM.
What year did Fort cut their youth program?
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  #225  
Old 03-11-18, 07:41 AM
Damage450 Damage450 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
I speak regularly with one of the best Coaches in the state (He is family and not from FR). The biggest point he drives home to his Jr high and jv coaches is give every kid a chance. Don't discourage any of them thru playing time. You never know which kid will develop into studs.

Leadership comes from the Head Coach but just as importantly you have to have coaches who understand what the goals are in the lower levels. Development is priority number 1. Winning does not matter.
It is difficult to find coaches who are willing to sacrifice wins for development. Jr High coaches have dreams of being Varsity coaches someday and think they have to show great win loss numbers to move up.

This is precisely why FR does not have a PeeWee program anymore. Coaches wanted to win rather than develop. It was bad for the PROGRAM.
100% Truth!
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  #226  
Old 03-12-18, 01:46 PM
thereckoning thereckoning is offline
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Originally Posted by StateChampion2012 View Post
What year did Fort cut their youth program?
I never knew they cut their youth program. But, didn't many of the kids that went to state actually play youth football in Fort Recovery? Could be wrong.

Regardless, it is too bad that the coach at the Fort couldn't wrangle the youth coaches in and work with the program from the bottom up. Couldn't agree more with the point that it needs to be program first and not just winning (although we also need to teach kids to stop getting participation trophies for everything as well).

I would be curious to know the rise in wins with Peewee football or the fall in wins with/without peewee. Seems to be a good example of a school working on success with and without a youth program.
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  #227  
Old 03-12-18, 01:49 PM
a_td a_td is offline
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I noticed on OHSAA site that Anna posted an opening for Varsity Assistant coach. If you know of any good assistances currently looking, send them Anna's way.
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  #228  
Old 03-12-18, 09:02 PM
bigkat bigkat is offline
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Originally Posted by a_td View Post
I noticed on OHSAA site that Anna posted an opening for Varsity Assistant coach. If you know of any good assistances currently looking, send them Anna's way.
did Anna lose more then one assistant for football
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  #229  
Old 03-13-18, 04:43 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
I never knew they cut their youth program. But, didn't many of the kids that went to state actually play youth football in Fort Recovery? Could be wrong.

Regardless, it is too bad that the coach at the Fort couldn't wrangle the youth coaches in and work with the program from the bottom up. Couldn't agree more with the point that it needs to be program first and not just winning (although we also need to teach kids to stop getting participation trophies for everything as well).

I would be curious to know the rise in wins with Peewee football or the fall in wins with/without peewee. Seems to be a good example of a school working on success with and without a youth program.
The 2015 seniors may have played PeeWee ball. I'm not real sure. The last class I know for certain was 2013 but there might have been a class or two after. Regardless of the last class to have played PeeWee, the turn around at the Fort started with the wholesale buy in of weight training year round. We saw this circa 2011-12. As more kids bought into it the better the program got. It started with a few upper classes leading the way. The 2015 class really was the first Jr high kids to weight train en mass at FR. Throw in some good talent and a favorable schedule and the result was a championship.
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  #230  
Old 03-13-18, 07:12 AM
a_td a_td is offline
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Originally Posted by bigkat View Post
did Anna lose more then one assistant for football
yes
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  #231  
Old 03-13-18, 09:34 AM
thereckoning thereckoning is offline
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Googled it. Crossroads youth football league. Fort Recovery, Celina, Union City, Ansonia, Sydney Lehman, Monroe IN, among others. Fort was winning the league/competing atop on a regular basis at least through 2010. Most of them that won the league went on to win state in High School. Similar accolades go to the Delphos teams that won their youth levels as well. Interesting comparison to success breeding success.

It would be interesting to make a comparison to kids playing the last year (lets say 2010) and their high school success compared to kids playing after. But that's a comparison that would be a few years down the road!
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  #232  
Old 03-13-18, 11:06 AM
clarity clarity is offline
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Did not play

I know for a fact that my nephew and many of his friends did not play youth football but started for the 2015 State Championship team. I think it will be really hard to correlate the short term youth football program and the success of the program. I think Indiandad is spot on in his response. I think the weight room is what made all the difference in the world.
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  #233  
Old 03-13-18, 12:31 PM
thereckoning thereckoning is offline
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That's odd clarity. They had teams play at both the "JV" and "Varsity" level in the Crossroads league. Which means kids from four classes (minimum of 12-15 per class) were playing and were winning the league. I would be hard pressed to imagine that "many" of them did not play unless they all transferred out of the Fort. However, I will take your word for it.

As for the weight room, that is a great point. Many kids that hit the weights hard and put the hours in, will make a spot for themselves.
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  #234  
Old 03-13-18, 12:34 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
Googled it. Crossroads youth football league. Fort Recovery, Celina, Union City, Ansonia, Sydney Lehman, Monroe IN, among others. Fort was winning the league/competing atop on a regular basis at least through 2010. Most of them that won the league went on to win state in High School. Similar accolades go to the Delphos teams that won their youth levels as well. Interesting comparison to success breeding success.

It would be interesting to make a comparison to kids playing the last year (lets say 2010) and their high school success compared to kids playing after. But that's a comparison that would be a few years down the road!
I think you're wanting a connection where there isn't one. For years FR's program was terrible yet they had PeeWee football. PeeWee football stopped and FR wins a State Championship. One might conclude there is a direct correlation between winning and PeeWee. But any good scientist will tell you that in order to test a hypothesis you must have controls AND ONLY ONE VARIABLE. That's the key.

FR's weight training program has been the difference. FR has a "class" that any student can take (even non athletes) that is in essence weight training. Nearly every athlete (especially if they expect to see PT) takes the class. Workout Regimens are designed for each athlete and their particular sport and position/skill set. There is testing at the beginning and end of each semester to track the students progress. It is extremely well ran and supervised.

FR's championship was also a confluence of factors. An aligning of the stars if you will. They had a large senior class with a lot of experience. They had size on the lines as well as a good balance of skill players. The schedule was very favorable. They played Anna in the regular season (which they beat) but not Coldwater. They beat 2 quality non league opponents that had winning records. Most importantly they played in DVII while ML played DVI. The only MAC team we had to beat was Minster which we've had a pretty good battle against over the last 6 meetings or so.

Everything lined up that year. No amount of star alignment would have gotten us a State Title however if not for the weight training and the kid's commitment to it.
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  #235  
Old 03-13-18, 01:24 PM
thereckoning thereckoning is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
I think you're wanting a connection where there isn't one. For years FR's program was terrible yet they had PeeWee football. PeeWee football stopped and FR wins a State Championship. One might conclude there is a direct correlation between winning and PeeWee. But any good scientist will tell you that in order to test a hypothesis you must have controls AND ONLY ONE VARIABLE. That's the key.

FR's weight training program has been the difference. FR has a "class" that any student can take (even non athletes) that is in essence weight training. Nearly every athlete (especially if they expect to see PT) takes the class. Workout Regimens are designed for each athlete and their particular sport and position/skill set. There is testing at the beginning and end of each semester to track the students progress. It is extremely well ran and supervised.

FR's championship was also a confluence of factors. An aligning of the stars if you will. They had a large senior class with a lot of experience. They had size on the lines as well as a good balance of skill players. The schedule was very favorable. They played Anna in the regular season (which they beat) but not Coldwater. They beat 2 quality non league opponents that had winning records. Most importantly they played in DVII while ML played DVI. The only MAC team we had to beat was Minster which we've had a pretty good battle against over the last 6 meetings or so.

Everything lined up that year. No amount of star alignment would have gotten us a State Title however if not for the weight training and the kid's commitment to it.
If a good scientist would tell me there is ONLY ONE VARIABLE, then how could a confluence of factors and "aligning of the stars" directly create a championship? Lol.

All good. What I see is Peewee success rolling over into HS success. Which simply means, there was a few great classes that learned at a young age, loved it, loved winning, and stuck with the "confluence of factors" such as weight training, good coaching, buying in, favorable schedules etc. So youth success = HS success in this case.

As far as weight training class, I am fairly old (probably older than most on a message board as such) and took weight training in HS. Was this new at FR after 2010? I thought it was common place for years.

That said, it worked. The program is doing well. I'll stop fishing for results, but continue to point back to seeing youth football being a jumping point for these programs all over the state to success. My humble opinion. Thanks for the banter! Good luck to your Indians in the upcoming season. For now, back to basketball!
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  #236  
Old 03-13-18, 05:50 PM
IndianaBanana IndianaBanana is offline
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Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
As far as weight training class, I am fairly old (probably older than most on a message board as such) and took weight training in HS. Was this new at FR after 2010? I thought it was common place for years.
The lifting class from 2005-2011 was fine, but was reevaluated and retooled to reflect more of a college athletic regiment around 2012.
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  #237  
Old 03-13-18, 05:53 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by IndianaBanana View Post
The lifting class from 2005-2011 was fine, but was reevaluated and retooled to reflect more of a college athletic regiment around 2012.
When the FR football program started, the "weight room" was literally a storage closet. Lol
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  #238  
Old 03-13-18, 06:01 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
If a good scientist would tell me there is ONLY ONE VARIABLE, then how could a confluence of factors and "aligning of the stars" directly create a championship? Lol.

All good. What I see is Peewee success rolling over into HS success. Which simply means, there was a few great classes that learned at a young age, loved it, loved winning, and stuck with the "confluence of factors" such as weight training, good coaching, buying in, favorable schedules etc. So youth success = HS success in this case.
I probably didn't explain myself the best. The point I was trying to make is that in order to equate PeeWee success to Varsity success you would need every other variable removed. That simply was not the case. Hence the confluence of factors. Furthermore, the PeeWee program had plenty of kids go thru the program for years prior to 2015 with the Varsity routinely winning 2 to 4 games a year. That negates the hypothesis of PeeWee = Varsity success.

FR's success is directly related to the weight training. That is undeniable.
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  #239  
Old 03-13-18, 06:24 PM
IndianaBanana IndianaBanana is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
When the FR football program started, the "weight room" was literally a storage closet. Lol
Oh my, yes! I totally forgot about that!
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  #240  
Old 03-13-18, 07:52 PM
Basement Bias Basement Bias is offline
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Originally Posted by thereckoning View Post
Googled it. Crossroads youth football league. Fort Recovery, Celina, Union City, Ansonia, Sydney Lehman, [I]Monroe IN[/I], among others. Fort was winning the league/competing atop on a regular basis at least through 2010. Most of them that won the league went on to win state in High School. Similar accolades go to the Delphos teams that won their youth levels as well. Interesting comparison to success breeding success.

It would be interesting to make a comparison to kids playing the last year (lets say 2010) and their high school success compared to kids playing after. But that's a comparison that would be a few years down the road!
Believe you mean Monroe Central located between Parker City and Farmland. I know it wasn't Monroe, IN as that would be Adams Central who does DFL.
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