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Old 06-03-18, 05:03 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Originally Posted by claynation View Post
The quality of Horter's victories elevate him to GOAT status. As I've said already in this thread, the Classes of 2016, 2017, and 2018 are all some of the deepest, most competitive in Ohio history. Ergo, Horter winning two state XC titles in THIS era is more impressive than, say, Zach Wills winning three from 2008-2010 (not that Wills is in this discussion, because he's not, but he serves as an apt example).

When comparing Fry v. Horter, Fry just doesn't have the range/versatility to match up. You can say they are close enough over 3200/5k to call it a wash, or even favor Fry by the absolute SLIGHTEST of margins (though I wouldn't, because Horter has two Division I XC titles in the deepest era in Ohio history, has the most impressive single season in Ohio HS XC history (2017), soloed an 8:48, and 3x All-Ohio at 3200m (again, in the deepest era in Ohio history), but I digress). But Horter is so far and away ahead of Fry at 1600m and especially at 800m that I don't the argument is very close. Horter has the Ohio Division I state record at 1600m (shattering Bob Kennedy's mark by 2 seconds), 2x outdoor and 2x indoor state champ at 1600m (again, and I apologize for continually repeating myself, but this is an extremely important point, DURING THE DEEPEST ERA IN OHIO HS RUNNING HISTORY, so these state titles are more impressive than, say, Jeff See's, whose competition paled in comparison to Horter's), New Balance Nationals Indoor champion in the mile (and we will see what he does at Brooks PR this week), and soloed a 1:50 800m.

When deciding who the greatest distance runner in Ohio HS history is, you're basically saying who has had the most success at 800m, 1600m, 3200m, and in cross country. By all objective and subjective measures, Horter comes out on top. Those of us who've appreciated watching him know he's the best.
There is no way, shape or form you can argue that Horter's senior cross country season was superior to Fry's. National Champion and undefeated. I don't think you can argue that it was better than Kennedy's either. Same reason. (And remember Kennedy ran against Sence in Ohio and at Footlocker.) Heck I don't even think you can argue that it was superior to JJ White's, who was 3rd at Footlocker and won the state meet against two guys who were among the four in the top 10 at Footlocker for Ohio. And remember that all of these guys were running in an era when there was only one national meet so no divided competition. I don't know as much about Scharshu, Pittman or Zishka's senior XC seasons. So to argue that Horter had the most impressive season you have to basically argue that his 14:36 at MMOC makes his season better than the other guys who finished better at the national meet. I am not going to reignite the debate about the length of MMOC because it does not matter. For whatever reason the course is fast, and that day super fast. And Horter didn't win that race. So couldn't we argue that Kreft had a better season? In any event it is not clear nor do I even think true to argue that his was the most impressive single season in Ohio XC history. Fry and Kennedy won nationals and were undefeated. As for XC career, I don't think you can argue it was the best. Kennedy and White (to name just two) both had as good or better finishes in AAA/D1 for each year of the HS careers and finished better nationally. White doing it in an era when Ohio XC was probably it's best in comparison to the nation.

On to the subject of track times. Dustin's times are without a doubt phenomenal. I do think he is one of the greatest of all time. But his PR races in track were fresh races in the evening. His mile even had pace setters. There is a big difference between this and running in the heat of the day. Fry ran a faster 3200 under much less optimal conditions, after a 4:08 1600 at the state meet to complete a double. So in the state meet Horter ran 1 second faster in the 1600 and 19 seconds slower in the 3200 for 1st and 3rd. So I don't think there is any doubt that Fry's state meet performance in track was superior. He beat Horter's set in evening under great conditions fresh 3200 PR during the day after having run a 1600 only a second slower than Horter ran to win the state meet. If you don't think that Fry could have run faster than his 4:08.01 if he had run a just a 1600 at night with pace setters then you were not watching him run at the state meet that year. He also won Golden West as well as the Jr. National 5000. Horter has a faster 800 time. But 800 PR times depend on getting a chance to run the 800 fresh to get a fast time. Not every coach and athlete puts a priority on that. I know that Fry ran relay splits faster than his purported high school 800 PR because I watched them. And I saw him run the 4x400 relay in some fast times. So Horter being inarguably better than Fry rests on his having a faster 800 PR.
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