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-   -   Teacher vs outside hire as coach (http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312314)

crazyotto 04-15-18 09:00 PM

Teacher vs outside hire as coach
 
Thoughts on this?

Recently, I had a discussion with a retired high school AD. He mentioned the teacher hire was the easier hire for him. He liked having a coach that walked the halls every day. He conceded that the teacher/administrator hire was not always the most qualified, but his feeling was that an "in house" person provided job stability. Basically, the trade off was stability over quality. A mediocre coach that will more than likely be around for a number of years outweighs a better coach with no ties to the school.
I have zero experience in his field. My outsider opinion is that as an AD I would choose the more qualified candidate simply based on coaching merit.

Raider6309 04-15-18 10:02 PM

I’d say a vast majority should be in house. But for the schools that offer 80k to 100k+ should be most qualified.

Mr. Slippery 04-15-18 11:02 PM

I don't think there's a "one size fits all" answer here. Different programs have different needs. Even the same program's needs can vary from one coaching search to the next.

spirit454 04-16-18 04:39 AM

Can there really be a good reason to hire a lesser qualified person?

Philos_Finest 04-16-18 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit454 (Post 7028797)
Can there really be a good reason to hire a lesser qualified person?

Depends on your definition of “qualified”.

baselinet2baseline 04-16-18 07:14 AM

This is an interesting topic, years ago I would have said, it does not matter hire the most qualified. It's definitely better to have your coach in the building for many reasons. However, there are coaches out there who have success and do not work in the building. Hire the most qualified or your program will be looking for a new coach every 3 to 4 years.

Amigo 04-16-18 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raider6309 (Post 7028769)
I’d say a vast majority should be in house. But for the schools that offer 80k to 100k+ should be most qualified.

Not quite sure who you are thinking about when you say that an in-house coach makes anywhere close to 100K+ and certainly a coach outside of school can't make big money like that and spend the time it takes to coach.
Can you cite examples of HS coaches making 100K+ cause that would make that job something rare in Ohio.

wheatfield32 04-16-18 09:50 AM

HIRE the MOST qualified applicant. Marion Local won the state title with a coach who teaches in a competitors school

Raider6309 04-16-18 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amigo (Post 7028935)
Not quite sure who you are thinking about when you say that an in-house coach makes anywhere close to 100K+ and certainly a coach outside of school can't make big money like that and spend the time it takes to coach.
Can you cite examples of HS coaches making 100K+ cause that would make that job something rare in Ohio.

No out of house coaches. All this is public records. Even a poor D3 football school around here pays the football coach 83k. He’s a social studies teacher. Every social studies teacher there makes 55k

Granville that’s an average football program pays 94k to the coach
Hale at Oletangy makes 110k

Pretty good salaries for teaching social studies lol

spirit454 04-16-18 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philos_Finest (Post 7028833)
Depends on your definition of “qualified”.

My definition is the same as everyone eases.

spirit454 04-16-18 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raider6309 (Post 7028946)
No out of house coaches. All this is public records. Even a poor D3 football school around here pays the football coach 83k. He’s a social studies teacher. Every social studies teacher there makes 55k

Granville that’s an average football program pays 94k to the coach
Hale at Oletangy makes 110k

Pretty good salaries for teaching social studies lol

Teaching salaries and coaching salaries are different.

Zezzo! 04-16-18 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit454 (Post 7028951)
Teaching salaries and coaching salaries are different.

I agree no high school football coach is getting an 83k stipend to coach he's more than likely making 83k combined with his teaching salary and coaching stipend that happens all the time.

C'Town216 04-16-18 10:49 AM

I think you hire the more qualified but it helps if you have assistants that are teachers at the school as well if that opportunity is possible. That way a coach who doesn’t teach or is in the school throughout the day can rely on what his assistants oversee in the class room. Sometimes not always the case.


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93 red ls 04-16-18 11:16 AM

As said above, each program is different.

I'm a HC of a HS sport NOT in the building and as long as your line of communication to everyone in the building is solid and your kids know what the routine/schedule is it CCAN work

Caleb 04-16-18 11:20 AM

Why would you hire somebody who's not going to at least be in the same building as the students your coaching? It just seems like things would run much smoother if they are.

spirit454 04-16-18 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 7028986)
Why would you hire somebody who's not going to at least be in the same building as the students your coaching? It just seems like things would run much smoother if they are.

With todays technology smooth communication can happen regardless of being in the same building. Some teacher-coaches will look to move on to bigger and better teaching jobs and coaching spots. It is not likely a non-teacher would take another coaching job in another town and then look to find a job. In that regard, stability could be better.
I can see benefits both ways but being a non teacher is more common than ever before.

spirit454 04-16-18 12:29 PM

Since someone mentioned Marion Local, I wonder how many of the coaches in the state tournament this year teach in the building they coach?

D4fan 04-16-18 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit454 (Post 7029068)
Since someone mentioned Marion Local, I wonder how many of the coaches in the state tournament this year teach in the building they coach?

Don't know the answer to that one but imagine the majority of the top successful programs hire from outside.

Seems like there is much less political butt sniffing when the coach is only around for his specific sport..

J.R. Swish 04-16-18 03:18 PM

Interesting topic, I witnessed this first hand several years back in a small district in NW Ohio. School with good basketball tradition but not a state contender. Very successful varsity coach taught at neighboring larger district. Turned down a teaching job at smaller school where he coached as he did not want a pay cut. Super tried a couple times to get him out and finally coach gave in as his JV coach had super's backing to be the new varsity coach. Fast forward several years and team's record is nowhere near what it was with former coach. New coach puts very little into summer program or skill development but admin and AD think new guy is great because he is "their guy" in their building. Politics remain prevalent even in small schools.

toledomansfield 04-16-18 03:36 PM

my opinion is equally qualified candidates give the nod to the teacher.

CoventryTrackXCguy 04-16-18 03:54 PM

Depends on the sport I guess. For my sport of cross country, or track, the argument of having a coach as a teacher carries quite a bit more merit. As said coach would be better able to recruit students for the team, which is a lot more vital for track/xc then other sports.

CometCountry 04-16-18 04:01 PM

By The Ohio Revised Code a certified teacher in the School District has to be selected as the coach if he is qualified over all other candidates. If no certified teacher in the School District is qualified then the School District may select a qualified certified teacher outside the school District. Only 3rd in line would be someone who is not a certified teacher and all other certified teachers have been deemed as unqualified for the coaching position by the local School Board.

It's been on the books since the early 2000's, but many Districts do not follow the steps laid out in the Ohio Revised Code. Three certified teachers went through being deemed unqualified for the HC position at the District I was at for 4 years, so the Super could bring a non-teaching buddy in to be the HC for those four years. Teachers Associations should be making sure that hiring for supplemental positions follow these steps each year and posted as open.

nwwarrior09 04-16-18 04:22 PM

From my experiences the term "qualified" appears to offer tremendous leeway in an AD/administration being able to hire who they want, teacher or otherwise.

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Big Ragu 04-16-18 05:50 PM

In my opinion, if (the big if) all things are equal I would go with the teacher. However, it seems as though I see too many unqualified teachers in coaching positions. I am not sure why that is. Little interest in position? Teacher taking job for a few extra bucks? Just my limited exposure? I would focus on what is right for the kids. We are, after all talking high school sports here. The main focus should be on creating a positive atmosphere for the kids. This is achieved through development of the player and program. Sports are such a great tool in the mental/physical/emotional/social development of our kids. I don't feel that preferential treatment should be given to a teacher simply because they are in the building.

Mr. Slippery 04-16-18 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Ragu (Post 7029325)
In my opinion, if (the big if) all things are equal I would go with the teacher. However, it seems as though I see too many unqualified teachers in coaching positions. I am not sure why that is. Little interest in position? Teacher taking job for a few extra bucks? Just my limited exposure? I would focus on what is right for the kids. We are, after all talking high school sports here. The main focus should be on creating a positive atmosphere for the kids. This is achieved through development of the player and program. Sports are such a great tool in the mental/physical/emotional/social development of our kids. I don't feel that preferential treatment should be given to a teacher simply because they are in the building.

Because unfortunately, there is a segment of the teaching population that is only in teaching because it allows easier access to a coaching job. It cuts the other way as well. School districts are eager to find teaching candidates who want to do more than just teach because many of the previous teachers they brought in as coaches aren't sticking with coaching as long as they used to. Part of that is the ever-expanding requirements for today's teachers, part of it is wanting to have a life outside of the school building (ex. family), and part of it is not wanting to have to put up with a lot of the stuff that today's coaches put up with (parents who think their 5' 4" son is a budding superstar and the pressure to win immediately), and part of it is the ever-increasing time requirements of the coaching job itself (many are year-round jobs these days).

Here's the thing though: you actually have to be a good teacher to be a good coach. Even if a coach has the greatest basketball mind in the world, it's not worth anything if that coach can't convey his or her thoughts in a way that a HS kid can understand. Good teachers are able to do that every day in the classroom.

CometCountry 04-16-18 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 (Post 7029266)
From my experiences the term "qualified" appears to offer tremendous leeway in an AD/administration being able to hire who they want, teacher or otherwise.

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You're correct Warrior--Administration/AD can wiggle their way around the qualified/unqualified ORC law, but they do have to tell teachers they work with on an everyday basis that they are "not qualified" to coach the team.

In my case I had been an HC in basketball for 6 years at a D2 school and an HC in baseball for 4 years at a D1 school previously to working at this tiny D3-D4 school--Principal had to tell me I was "unqualified", and 2 other teachers on staff, so they could bring the non-teacher Superintendent's buddy in as HC--needless to say there were some bad feelings between staff and Administration, until one of the unqualified teachers was hired after four years of the sham.

I do think most schools pick the best teacher for the job, if they can get someone in the building:thumb:

nwwarrior09 04-16-18 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Ragu (Post 7029325)
In my opinion, if (the big if) all things are equal I would go with the teacher. However, it seems as though I see too many unqualified teachers in coaching positions. I am not sure why that is. Little interest in position? Teacher taking job for a few extra bucks? Just my limited exposure? I would focus on what is right for the kids. We are, after all talking high school sports here. The main focus should be on creating a positive atmosphere for the kids. This is achieved through development of the player and program. Sports are such a great tool in the mental/physical/emotional/social development of our kids. I don't feel that preferential treatment should be given to a teacher simply because they are in the building.

From what I've seen, this normally seems to be at smaller schools with things such as middle school track or 7th grade girls' basketball, although there's occasionally such instances at the high school level. Re: junior high sports, especially with smaller schools, administration's are usually stuck with a bad dilemma of having (sometimes begging) an unqualified teacher or a parent that will only do the job for 1-2 years. The unqualified teacher is the lesser of two bad options.

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nwwarrior09 04-16-18 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CometCountry (Post 7029443)
You're correct Warrior--Administration/AD can wiggle their way around the qualified/unqualified ORC law, but they do have to tell teachers they work with on an everyday basis that they are "not qualified" to coach the team.

In my case I had been an HC in basketball for 6 years at a D2 school and an HC in baseball for 4 years at a D1 school previously to working at this tiny D3-D4 school--Principal had to tell me I was "unqualified", and 2 other teachers on staff, so they could bring the non-teacher Superintendent's buddy in as HC--needless to say there were some bad feelings between staff and Administration, until one of the unqualified teachers was hired after four years of the sham.

I do think most schools pick the best teacher for the job, if they can get someone in the building:thumb:

That actually might be the worst example I've ever heard of a school subverting the system to go out of house with a "lay" coach. Recently, I've heard of a D3/D4 size school hiring for a varsity head coaching position between a teacher, an administrator's spouse and a parent -- and they chose the admin's spouse over the teacher.

Given the option, I'd always prefer to have a legit teacher-coach over all other possibilities. I think most schools (thankfully) make an effort to do the same.

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tribefan23 04-17-18 09:01 AM

Depends on school district and area for sure. I coached in an urban high school and we had 5 football coaches in the building, but needed every one of those coaches to deal with player expectations, grades, disciplinary issues, and honestly just recruiting kids for the team, especially with the culture that was there. Recruiting kids to play is a big deal in some schools and having coaches in the building is a huge influence. If it wasn't for a coach in my middle school that was a teacher, I probably wouldn't have played football (or at least wouldn't have started in middle school). Other issues that come up are grade checks, dealing with disciplinary issues and other academic issues. It's hard to keep tabs on students with 1 or no coaches in the building

spirit454 04-17-18 10:33 AM

Today grades are all online and anyone can be given access. If a kid has an academic issue the coach has the same authority if he is in the building or not and that goes the same for discipline.
I see it from either side and it does depend directly on the district. But some have the idea that because a coach is in the building they are watching over a player 24/7 and that is not true at all. Does it also matter what the coach teaches?


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