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-   -   Why isn't the U.S. better at soccer? It's all about the Benjamins (http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314150)

sportsfanofyear 07-11-18 08:34 AM

Why isn't the U.S. better at soccer? It's all about the Benjamins
 
From Yahoo Sports - link

“I do feel like there is a problem in the U.S. with younger kids having to pay to play,” Alex Morgan said. “I wish it was more available to all kids.”

coachg 07-11-18 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear (Post 7067138)
From Yahoo Sports - link

“I do feel like there is a problem in the U.S. with younger kids having to pay to play,” Alex Morgan said. “I wish it was more available to all kids.”

Most all clubs have scholarships available. I personally have not seen a kid not play due to money.

yapster2017 07-11-18 10:17 AM

“I do feel like there is a problem in the U.S. with younger kids having to pay to play,” Alex Morgan said. “I wish it was more available to all kids.”[/QUOTE]


If you have a son and he seems to be a special athlete what sport would you steer him toward at a young age? Every Friday night there’s thousands of fans in those seats at these high schools. Twice a week bball gyms are packed and everyone knows who you are. Every student and parent alike know who the stud bball or fball players are. You might be lucky to have 100 people at the soccer game.

Bball and fball is on every TV in America. There are 3 major sports in America for men that soccer has to compete with to try to get these athletes. How many sports is Croatia competing with to get the best athletes in their country? The best athletes in other countries grow up wanting to be the next Messi, Ronaldo etc. The best athletes in this country grow up wanting to be the next lebron, Tom Brady etc. France has Mbappe and our Mbappe just got drafted in the 2nd rd of the nba and will be lucky to make the roster.

For females what is the ultimate goal? You are lucky to break even with a partial scholarship in a non-fully funded sport. There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Most pro women soccer players live near the poverty line. Meanwhile club coaches are building homes and driving nice cars while the fees increase every year.

Raider6309 07-11-18 10:34 AM

Rich kids suck at sports

Conan73 07-11-18 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yapster2017 (Post 7067180)
“I do feel like there is a problem in the U.S. with younger kids having to pay to play,” Alex Morgan said. “I wish it was more available to all kids.”


If you have a son and he seems to be a special athlete what sport would you steer him toward at a young age? Every Friday night there’s thousands of fans in those seats at these high schools. Twice a week bball gyms are packed and everyone knows who you are. Every student and parent alike know who the stud bball or fball players are. You might be lucky to have 100 people at the soccer game.

Bball and fball is on every TV in America. There are 3 major sports in America for men that soccer has to compete with to try to get these athletes. How many sports is Croatia competing with to get the best athletes in their country? The best athletes in other countries grow up wanting to be the next Messi, Ronaldo etc. The best athletes in this country grow up wanting to be the next lebron, Tom Brady etc. France has Mbappe and our Mbappe just got drafted in the 2nd rd of the nba and will be lucky to make the roster.

For females what is the ultimate goal? You are lucky to break even with a partial scholarship in a non-fully funded sport. There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Most pro women soccer players live near the poverty line. Meanwhile club coaches are building homes and driving nice cars while the fees increase every year.[/QUOTE]

Here are the reason for pay-to-play:

1) coaching - Until the US has parent/volunteer coaches that can adequately teach the game (like they can in baseball, basketball, and football), clubs will need to hire soccer coaches

2) Facilities -quality soccer fields are not free. They are typically rented from local municipalities, churches, schools, etc. To train or play in the winter, indoor facilities are typically rented. Goal posts and nets need to be purchased, as well.

3) Games - leagues and tournaments charge registration fees. These are not cheap

4) Referees - Refs are typically paid

In other countries, where soccer is the dominate sport, there is no shortage of low cost or free field space to train and play games. The base level of coaching can be provided by parents that know the game, etc.

More important, the kids that are pre-identified to have potential typically do not have to pay for anything. Either the country's soccer federation and/or the pro teams pick up the tab. From a development standpoint, the clubs and soccer federations are then able to scout kids in under-privileged communities (take the French national team as an example).

In the US, this happens in AAU basketball. The best kids play for AAU teams that are sponsored by shoe companies. Those kids pay for nothing. The tab for the coaches, uniforms, shoes, training gear, facilities, travel, etc are covered.

Imagine if ODP were free. Imagine if ECNL or the DA were free. In the US, soccer doesn't generate the kind of dollars needed to make this happen. If the dollars were available to eliminate or reduce the current pay-to-play system, you'd see more scouting of under-privileged kids to get involved in the game.

Irwin20 07-11-18 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachg (Post 7067179)
Most all clubs have scholarships available. I personally have not seen a kid not play due to money.

I agree Coach. Clubs I'm familiar with will give assistance.

Taco MacArthur 07-11-18 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yapster2017 (Post 7067180)

If you have a son and he seems to be a special athlete what sport would you steer him toward at a young age? Every Friday night there’s thousands of fans in those seats at these high schools. Twice a week bball gyms are packed and everyone knows who you are. Every student and parent alike know who the stud bball or fball players are. You might be lucky to have 100 people at the soccer game.

Bball and fball is on every TV in America. There are 3 major sports in America for men that soccer has to compete with to try to get these athletes. How many sports is Croatia competing with to get the best athletes in their country? The best athletes in other countries grow up wanting to be the next Messi, Ronaldo etc. The best athletes in this country grow up wanting to be the next lebron, Tom Brady etc. France has Mbappe and our Mbappe just got drafted in the 2nd rd of the nba and will be lucky to make the roster.

For females what is the ultimate goal? You are lucky to break even with a partial scholarship in a non-fully funded sport. There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Most pro women soccer players live near the poverty line. Meanwhile club coaches are building homes and driving nice cars while the fees increase every year.

Who is our Mbappe?

270SC 07-11-18 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan73 (Post 7067197)
If you have a son and he seems to be a special athlete what sport would you steer him toward at a young age? Every Friday night there’s thousands of fans in those seats at these high schools. Twice a week bball gyms are packed and everyone knows who you are. Every student and parent alike know who the stud bball or fball players are. You might be lucky to have 100 people at the soccer game.

Bball and fball is on every TV in America. There are 3 major sports in America for men that soccer has to compete with to try to get these athletes. How many sports is Croatia competing with to get the best athletes in their country? The best athletes in other countries grow up wanting to be the next Messi, Ronaldo etc. The best athletes in this country grow up wanting to be the next lebron, Tom Brady etc. France has Mbappe and our Mbappe just got drafted in the 2nd rd of the nba and will be lucky to make the roster.

For females what is the ultimate goal? You are lucky to break even with a partial scholarship in a non-fully funded sport. There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Most pro women soccer players live near the poverty line. Meanwhile club coaches are building homes and driving nice cars while the fees increase every year.

Here are the reason for pay-to-play:

1) coaching - Until the US has parent/volunteer coaches that can adequately teach the game (like they can in baseball, basketball, and football), clubs will need to hire soccer coaches

2) Facilities -quality soccer fields are not free. They are typically rented from local municipalities, churches, schools, etc. To train or play in the winter, indoor facilities are typically rented. Goal posts and nets need to be purchased, as well.

3) Games - leagues and tournaments charge registration fees. These are not cheap

4) Referees - Refs are typically paid

In other countries, where soccer is the dominate sport, there is no shortage of low cost or free field space to train and play games. The base level of coaching can be provided by parents that know the game, etc.

More important, the kids that are pre-identified to have potential typically do not have to pay for anything. Either the country's soccer federation and/or the pro teams pick up the tab. From a development standpoint, the clubs and soccer federations are then able to scout kids in under-privileged communities (take the French national team as an example).

In the US, this happens in AAU basketball. The best kids play for AAU teams that are sponsored by shoe companies. Those kids pay for nothing. The tab for the coaches, uniforms, shoes, training gear, facilities, travel, etc are covered.

Imagine if ODP were free. Imagine if ECNL or the DA were free. In the US, soccer doesn't generate the kind of dollars needed to make this happen. If the dollars were available to eliminate or reduce the current pay-to-play system, you'd see more scouting of under-privileged kids to get involved in the game.[/QUOTE]

This post is spot on. Nothing will ever be free, the money is just too easy.

Philly_Cat 07-12-18 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan73 (Post 7067197)
Imagine if ODP were free. Imagine if ECNL or the DA were free. In the US, soccer doesn't generate the kind of dollars needed to make this happen. If the dollars were available to eliminate or reduce the current pay-to-play system, you'd see more scouting of under-privileged kids to get involved in the game.

There are clubs in the DA that are fully funded, meaning they are free to play, granted you make the team. Locally the Columbus Crew DA is one of those clubs. In my opinion the entire DA should be fully funded. That would be the best step in truly pushing the US soccer program forward

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belied dat 07-13-18 10:06 AM

DAs are a small slice of the pie. Look at the English national team, only 4 of their starters came from EPL academies.

They are essentially just "another" club. They are what ODP use to be. No way around 200 (including girls) DAs can adequately service this country and its soccer needs.

Philly_Cat 07-13-18 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belied dat (Post 7067942)
DAs are a small slice of the pie. Look at the English national team, only 4 of their starters came from EPL academies.

They are essentially just "another" club. They are what ODP use to be. No way around 200 (including girls) DAs can adequately service this country and its soccer needs.

Step, STEP in moving forward.

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coachg 07-13-18 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belied dat (Post 7067942)
DAs are a small slice of the pie. Look at the English national team, only 4 of their starters came from EPL academies.

They are essentially just "another" club. They are what ODP use to be. No way around 200 (including girls) DAs can adequately service this country and its soccer needs.

Are you kidding me? The DA is nothing like ODP ever was. You must have lost a few marbles over the years. There is no comparison at all in the way they are ran.

belied dat 07-13-18 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philly_Cat (Post 7067943)
Step, STEP in moving forward.

How is it a step forward? It's just another club setup.

They are trying the same thing that ODP was. Try to get the best players in state/region/area/etc. and get them competing against others who feel it's the same. It's littered with high travel and few training dates.

Sure, they are trying to do some fully-funded business. Someone is footing the bill somewhere -- Columbus Crew DA getting it from their "affiliate" clubs, just like everyone else (FC Dallas gets somewhere around $10+ million from their affiliates).

Philly_Cat 07-13-18 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belied dat (Post 7068062)
How is it a step forward? It's just another club setup.

They are trying the same thing that ODP was. Try to get the best players in state/region/area/etc. and get them competing against others who feel it's the same. It's littered with high travel and few training dates.

Sure, they are trying to do some fully-funded business. Someone is footing the bill somewhere -- Columbus Crew DA getting it from their "affiliate" clubs, just like everyone else (FC Dallas gets somewhere around $10+ million from their affiliates).

Ummm wasn't that the entire point of this thread and the article, cost? Yes, everyone knows nothing is ever free. There is always someone that is paying at some point. That has zero revelance to what I was saying. The point is if you can create an environment where money isn't a barrier, you then open the pool up to all of the available talent to grow the sport and develop talent. Right now there is a severe bottleneck due to the extreme costs to play at the elite level. And yes, that money must come from somewhere. If invenstors see a place where they can get a good return on their investment they will put up the money.

My point is that is the direction US Soccer needs to be going if they want any chance of pushing the sport forward in this country in any significant way. It's already been pointed out that the top level basketball players play for free, same can be said for baseball, its just not as prevelant as with basketball. Some DA clubs are attempting that as well but it's few and far between. It needs to be something that US Soccer needs to take by horns and push for as a whole for real change.

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belied dat 07-14-18 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachg (Post 7068060)
Are you kidding me? The DA is nothing like ODP ever was. You must have lost a few marbles over the years. There is no comparison at all in the way they are ran.

Good job adding nothing to the conversation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philly_Cat (Post 7068079)
Ummm wasn't that the entire point of this thread and the article, cost? Yes, everyone knows nothing is ever free. There is always someone that is paying at some point. That has zero revelance to what I was saying. The point is if you can create an environment where money isn't a barrier, you then open the pool up to all of the available talent to grow the sport and develop talent. Right now there is a severe bottleneck due to the extreme costs to play at the elite level. And yes, that money must come from somewhere. If invenstors see a place where they can get a good return on their investment they will put up the money.

My point is that is the direction US Soccer needs to be going if they want any chance of pushing the sport forward in this country in any significant way. It's already been pointed out that the top level basketball players play for free, same can be said for baseball, its just not as prevelant as with basketball. Some DA clubs are attempting that as well but it's few and far between. It needs to be something that US Soccer needs to take by horns and push for as a whole for real change.

Money is still a barrier at the DA level. Travel (to the DA training and/or to the DA competitions). Uprooting to be closer to the DA (i.e., leaving the family). It's not like all of the good soccer players are in good proximity to a DA.

Top level "other sports" play for "free" because there's not nearly the full-time youth coaches in those sports like there is in soccer. They don't pay X-amount of "DOCs" to govern a club/DA. They don't rely on pipelining international coaches to sell college scholarships/pro aspirations. They are actually funded by sponsors -- Nike, adidas, Big Baller, etc. This is a completely different setup than utilizing the "affiliates" to pay for the DA.

sportsfanofyear 07-17-18 06:18 PM

What is the ultimate purpose of DA? (Rhetorical) To identify 20 or so players to play on the National Team. Even if you took all the different age groups (NT, U23, U20, U19, U18, U17, U16, U15), you still are trying to identify 160 players (320 if you count both sexes). Has it been successful?

Don't forget on the Women's side, most of the female players dedicating lots of their parent's money and sacrificing their bodies and social development won't even make the whopping $37,800 NWSL limit, ever.

Because the US Soccer idiots can't figure out how to find and develop a good 320 players (actually, we only care about 20 or so for each sex), they have fricked the age rules, made soccer less accessible for all to play and are losing ground in participation numbers. Injuries are way up and so is sport burnout.

An article from The Atlantic that doesn't credit/blame DA but credits/blames US Soccer and the shirt that they have instituted, "The Downsides of America’s Hyper-Competitive Youth-Soccer Industry" - https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...dustry/565109/

Snooper 07-18-18 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear (Post 7069642)
What is the ultimate purpose of DA? (Rhetorical) To identify 20 or so players to play on the National Team. Even if you took all the different age groups (NT, U23, U20, U19, U18, U17, U16, U15), you still are trying to identify 160 players (320 if you count both sexes). Has it been successful?

Don't forget on the Women's side, most of the female players dedicating lots of their parent's money and sacrificing their bodies and social development won't even make the whopping $37,800 NWSL limit, ever.

Because the US Soccer idiots can't figure out how to find and develop a good 320 players (actually, we only care about 20 or so for each sex), they have fricked the age rules, made soccer less accessible for all to play and are losing ground in participation numbers. Injuries are way up and so is sport burnout.

An article from The Atlantic that doesn't credit/blame DA but credits/blames US Soccer and the shirt that they have instituted, "The Downsides of America’s Hyper-Competitive Youth-Soccer Industry" - https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...dustry/565109/

Excellent and relevant article. It definitely seems that things are spinning more and more out of control in the lives of families who have children that play higher level sports.

belied dat 07-18-18 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear (Post 7069642)
What is the ultimate purpose of DA? (Rhetorical) To identify 20 or so players to play on the National Team. Even if you took all the different age groups (NT, U23, U20, U19, U18, U17, U16, U15), you still are trying to identify 160 players (320 if you count both sexes). Has it been successful?

Don't forget on the Women's side, most of the female players dedicating lots of their parent's money and sacrificing their bodies and social development won't even make the whopping $37,800 NWSL limit, ever.

Because the US Soccer idiots can't figure out how to find and develop a good 320 players (actually, we only care about 20 or so for each sex), they have fricked the age rules, made soccer less accessible for all to play and are losing ground in participation numbers. Injuries are way up and so is sport burnout.

An article from The Atlantic that doesn't credit/blame DA but credits/blames US Soccer and the shirt that they have instituted, "The Downsides of America’s Hyper-Competitive Youth-Soccer Industry" - https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...dustry/565109/

That's where USSF and all its members in the DA think they know what they are doing. People follow blindly.

Look at any NT across the World Cup. None come from a "select" few academies in their domestic countries. A quick look at England and only 4 came from a Premier League academy (I think it was the starting eleven, but could be more). It has NOTHING to do with being in the "elite" academy. It's about casting nets far and wide to identify talent. It has everything to do with players and parents putting their own personal development in their own hands instead of relying on "coach" or "club" to make one better solely.

We can all point fingers at a DA. So be it. In the end, it's just another "club." They exist just like other clubs do. Make money, college scholarships, provide opportunities, train kids, etc. No one has the keys to unlock the treasure of NT player development or pro development.

Iniesta 07-19-18 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear (Post 7069642)
An article from The Atlantic that doesn't credit/blame DA but credits/blames US Soccer and the shirt that they have instituted, "The Downsides of America’s Hyper-Competitive Youth-Soccer Industry" - https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...dustry/565109/

Great article. It’s really beyond soccer and beyond sports. There are enough well-intentioned parents attempting to provide “opportunity” that all manner of kids’ activities have been affected. Theater? Robotics? It’s all headed the same way.

Problem is parents willing to pay. The industries will spring up whereever there is money to be made.

IcyCoolDevil 07-19-18 02:58 PM

What would happen with soccer in America if you had 50 professional teams just in Ohio?? France has 300 professional teams and while they are similar in space have six times as many people so for scale I picked 50. You are talking professional teams in towns like Wooster, Zanesville, Troy and Sandusky.

sportsfanofyear 07-22-18 12:52 AM

Recently from the New York Times, another article describing how soccer is going backwards in the US and the article states "the percentage of 6- to 12-year-olds playing soccer regularly has dropped nearly 14 percent". (How are they going to fill all those DA teams with World Cup talent?)

“It’s lost more child participants than any other sport — about 600,000 of them,”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/14/s...h-decline.html

270SC 07-22-18 12:22 PM

The question is, why do we even care where we are at the International Level? It’s all about the scholarships and watching overseas soccer, so how does this really even matter?

belied dat 07-24-18 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyCoolDevil (Post 7070607)
What would happen with soccer in America if you had 50 professional teams just in Ohio?? France has 300 professional teams and while they are similar in space have six times as many people so for scale I picked 50. You are talking professional teams in towns like Wooster, Zanesville, Troy and Sandusky.

This could happen if there were any leadership from state associations and USSF.

Every state should have its own state league and broken down into regions/districts. Clear up to more regional and national levels. A true pyramid could go a long way in developing soccer and an American soccer culture.

270SC 07-25-18 01:55 PM

That would mean some type of form of relegation and with MLS, which is an awful format, that won’t ever happen.

Hoosier Parent 07-25-18 04:10 PM

Maybe we could have a system of state leagues that feed into regionals leagues, that feed into a national league, all governed by a system of promotion/relegation.

Each state could even have their own individual development/identification system. It could be called something like "Other Development Program" (ODP)

Too bad someone hasn't developed a system like that.

Raider6309 07-25-18 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyCoolDevil (Post 7070607)
What would happen with soccer in America if you had 50 professional teams just in Ohio?? France has 300 professional teams and while they are similar in space have six times as many people so for scale I picked 50. You are talking professional teams in towns like Wooster, Zanesville, Troy and Sandusky.

The problem is title 9. 205 men’s D1 college teams vs 333 women D1 college teams. Our women’s team is always good and the men always suck. There are a bunch of colleges in Ohio

belied dat 07-26-18 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raider6309 (Post 7073386)
The problem is title 9. 205 men’s D1 college teams vs 333 women D1 college teams. Our women’s team is always good and the men always suck. There are a bunch of colleges in Ohio

Title IX only will affect the interscholastic/intercollegiate.

That post was about just having more teams in the whole state OUTSIDE of the already existing educational/athletic system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoosier Parent (Post 7073367)
Maybe we could have a system of state leagues that feed into regionals leagues, that feed into a national league, all governed by a system of promotion/relegation.

Each state could even have their own individual development/identification system. It could be called something like "Other Development Program" (ODP)

Too bad someone hasn't developed a system like that.

That's exactly how it should be. Just like clubs should offer teams past U18 to continue the "active" lifestyle that is so talked about from the minute people are born through HS graduation.

The game could be so much bigger and the culture could be impacted even more with this system.

Philly_Cat 07-26-18 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belied dat (Post 7073604)
That's exactly how it should be. Just like clubs should offer teams past U18 to continue the "active" lifestyle that is so talked about from the minute people are born through HS graduation.

The game could be so much bigger and the culture could be impacted even more with this system.

I believe his post was tongue in cheek, because what you are asking for is what US Youth Soccer already has established. The National Championships are even going on as we speak in Dallas. You can watch the games live on YouTube if you'd like.

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belied dat 07-26-18 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philly_Cat (Post 7073662)
I believe his post was tongue in cheek, because what you are asking for is what US Youth Soccer already has established. The National Championships are even going on as we speak in Dallas. You can watch the games live on YouTube if you'd like.

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Should happen beyond, is what I was adding.

Philly_Cat 07-26-18 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belied dat (Post 7073800)
Should happen beyond, is what I was adding.

But that's not what you've been saying this entire time. You've torn down pretty much the entire current structure in the US, said anyone associated with US soccer is clueless, said all the clubs, particularly the larger ones and those associated with the DA, are just out for the money. Did I miss anything, because I'm pretty sure I've missed even more of your laundry list of everything wrong with soccer.

So when you come back with your big solution that's almost word for word the structure currently in place, it's kind of hard to not laugh at you. And then to say "it should happen beyond 18 is what I was adding" is disingenuous at the very least, and to be nice. But honestly it's complete crap, because it means we should all act like all of your other posts on this thread never happened and it's all in our imaginations.

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