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EastYoungstown 09-22-15 07:19 AM

Ask the ref?
 
Maybe there should be a sticky for this kind of thing like the football forum?

Anyways, here's my scenario for those who would know.

Team A takes a shot from about 20 yards out. The ball hits the crossbar, goes straight up in the air and lands about a foot or two outside the goal line dead center of the goal. A defender from Team B traps the ball and the keeper picks it up. Now I know a defender cannot deliberately pass it back to the keeper and the keeper use his hands, but what about this case? Is trapping it akin to a pass in this case?

If it's a pass, what's the call?

Thanks!

HaaaveYouMetTed 09-22-15 08:41 AM

My understanding is that if the defender trapped the ball with the intent that the keeper would pick it up, that's an infraction and the ref should award an indirect free kick at the spot where the keeper picked it up. Because there's no "pass" back to the keeper in this situation, it might be difficult for a ref to say the trap was "deliberate" as the rule contemplates the term, but if the ref thinks it's on purpose then it's definitely a violation.

The rule calls for the ball to be placed where the keeper picked it up. In this scenario, that would mean an indirect free kick from 1 or 2 feet in front of the goal. Because the defending team cannot stand within 10 yards of the goal, it would seem that all the offensive team would have to do is touch the ball and pass it into a wide open goal. I'm not sure if the 10 yard rule is enforced so close to the goal though.

Blind Chance 09-22-15 08:48 AM

Three things must happen for a pass back violation.

1. The ball must be last played by a teammate.
2. The ball must be deliberately kicked (defined as by the foot) to the goalkeeper.
3. The goalkeeper must pick up the ball with his hands.

1 and 3 are definitely satisfied in the above scenario, but 2 is a judgement call. Did the defender deliberately kick it in a way for the goalkeeper to pick it up? With the above scenario and pressure from attackers I would have a hard time calling it because he could have been trapping it to kick it out, etc. I would have to have been there to give you a better answer though.

Blind Chance 09-22-15 08:56 AM

If the violation was called and it was inside the goal area (6 yard box), an indirect free kick from the closest spot on the goal area line (6 yards) that is parallel to the goal line. All defenders would have to be on the goal line or 10 yards from the ball if in abother direction.

phatneff 09-22-15 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Chance (Post 6256152)
.....he could have been trapping it to kick it out, etc. I would have to have been there to give you a better answer though.

I agree with you on the latter, but the former is questionable. I'm not sure why a defender would first trap the ball to clear it out with attackers approaching. He would most likely want to clear it as soon as possible and kick it out on a volley or something. My opinion would be that there was intent for the keeper to pick it up if he traps the ball. However, I would have a hard time calling it. I would have to see the actions of the defender (if he was facing the keeper, motioning for the keeper to get it, shielding attackers so the keeper could get it, etc.) before I could make a decision.

HaaaveYouMetTed 09-22-15 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Chance (Post 6256170)
If the violation was called and it was inside the goal area (6 yard box), an indirect free kick from the closest spot on the goal area line (6 yards) that is parallel to the goal line. All defenders would have to be on the goal line or 10 yards from the ball if in abother direction.

I did not know that. Helpful to know. I imagine that would mean a keeper and an ten-man wall across the goal line making a break for the ball as soon as it is touched

EastYoungstown 09-22-15 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatneff (Post 6256196)
I agree with you on the latter, but the former is questionable. I'm not sure why a defender would first trap the ball to clear it out with attackers approaching. He would most likely want to clear it as soon as possible and kick it out on a volley or something. My opinion would be that there was intent for the keeper to pick it up if he traps the ball. However, I would have a hard time calling it. I would have to see the actions of the defender (if he was facing the keeper, motioning for the keeper to get it, shielding attackers so the keeper could get it, etc.) before I could make a decision.

The whole thing was pretty bang bang. The defender controlled the ball, it had come to a stop, and before he could really do anything else the keeper snatched it up almost immediately. There was no intent to pass to the keeper at all, just to control it.

I was the AR in front of the bench of the team that was defending and naturally their coach wasn't exactly thrilled. The center ref did make the correct call, indirect kick, but did move it back to around the 6 yard line. I'm not sure why he did that, but it seemed to be the right call to me. I explained it to the coach but he still wasn't thrilled. It helped that the ensuing indirect kick did not lead to a goal

Thanks for all the input guys. This was a situation that I hadn't seen before and was hoping we'd gotten it right.

As I make my journey through being a ref I'm sure I'll have more questions to bounce off you guys.

Blind Chance 09-22-15 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastYoungstown (Post 6256253)
The whole thing was pretty bang bang. The defender controlled the ball, it had come to a stop, and before he could really do anything else the keeper snatched it up almost immediately. There was no intent to pass to the keeper at all, just to control it.

If there was indeed no intent to pass to the keeper, this was the incorrect call. He was correct in moving in back to the six if he did make the call though.

EastYoungstown 09-23-15 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Chance (Post 6256317)
If there was indeed no intent to pass to the keeper, this was the incorrect call. He was correct in moving in back to the six if he did make the call though.

Thank you

centercirclechuck 09-23-15 11:11 AM

I see the word "intent". Referees can not judge intent. Not mind readers.

Even with these rule it is tough. "Deliberate" kick with the foot. I can take deliberate and use it anyway i what.

Same goes for handling. Probably still call way too often and difintely will begged(HAND BALL!!) for too often.

HSfooty1977 09-24-15 07:53 AM

The location of the players in reference to the ball is the key issues, if the keeper was behind the defender, who traps the ball, then the keeper runs around and picks it up, that NOT a pass back. If they are facing each other, then intent is somewhat implied because both players can visible see whats going on. Still probable a NO call for me unless it is truly blatant.

EastYoungstown 09-24-15 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by centercirclechuck (Post 6257419)
I see the word "intent". Referees can not judge intent. Not mind readers.

Even with these rule it is tough. "Deliberate" kick with the foot. I can take deliberate and use it anyway i what.

Same goes for handling. Probably still call way too often and difintely will begged(HAND BALL!!) for too often.

Wait? Mind reading wasn't part of your course?

I guess by intent I mean that the defender did not make eye contact with or, I don't think, even look at the keeper.More or less he trapped it and the keeper took it off his foot.

I can see now that we messed it up. Live and learn!

cougarfan2 10-06-15 06:57 AM

Watching the Monday night football game between the Lions and Seahawks and the blown judgment call with no obstruction, a great view, no distraction and even a chance to talk it over with fellow refs. Those guys go to classes, are the best of the class, and are paid professionals.

I am confident my big mouth will complain about a call soon enough but I wish I could be a bit more understanding given the above.

phatneff 10-06-15 09:36 AM

Yeah, I was shocked by that, too. An obvious example of officials not knowing the rules.................on a primetime nationally televised game that affected the outcome of the game.

Gview 10-06-15 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatneff (Post 6272545)
Yeah, I was shocked by that, too. An obvious example of officials not knowing the rules.................on a primetime nationally televised game that affected the outcome of the game.

What? The official made a call that directly affected the outcome of a game?

Please note this is being said with sarcasm.

J00 10-13-15 09:02 AM

Officiating Question
 
I would like to get into officiating but I would like to know how long it takes to get varsity assignments. I realize you are not going to get GWOC or GCL games immediately, but if you can prove to the assignors that you are competent how long does it take to get varsity games in smaller leagues like the SWBL and CCC? I played in college and have a pretty good understanding of the rules and procedures. I went through the classes about 10 years ago. Any advice you could give would be appreciated.

Blind Chance 10-13-15 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J00 (Post 6280642)
I would like to get into officiating but I would like to know how long it takes to get varsity assignments. I realize you are not going to get GWOC or GCL games immediately, but if you can prove to the assignors that you are competent how long does it take to get varsity games in smaller leagues like the SWBL and CCC? I played in college and have a pretty good understanding of the rules and procedures. I went through the classes about 10 years ago. Any advice you could give would be appreciated.

I am assuming you are talking about getting varsity centers as you will get varsity lines your first year. (Dual on JV game and then line on the varsity game). To be assigned the centers, you have to get to know the assignors and you have to earn their trust. The easiest way to do this is proving yourself as a USSF referee as both assignors in Dayton (One for GWOC and one for every other league) also work/assign USSF games. It is much easier to move up in USSF as they push talented referees by providing academies and training unlike high school. If you move up in USSF, it is easier to get recognized by the high school assignors and get rewarded because of it. (It only took me a couple of years to start getting higher level centers.) This is only true for regular season high school as tournament time it is all about who you know and who knows you which leads to many folks being on games that they shouldn't be on.

Honestly, there is also a severe referee shortage that they are constantly sending out emails every day desperately trying to get folks to fill games, so you can get games this way as well. We always need more young talent that know the game and can stay with play.

If you want more information, feel free to PM me.

cincyeaglefan 10-13-15 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Chance (Post 6281183)
I am assuming you are talking about getting varsity centers as you will get varsity lines your first year. (Dual on JV game and then line on the varsity game). To be assigned the centers, you have to get to know the assignors and you have to earn their trust. The easiest way to do this is proving yourself as a USSF referee as both assignors in Dayton (One for GWOC and one for every other league) also work/assign USSF games. It is much easier to move up in USSF as they push talented referees by providing academies and training unlike high school. If you move up in USSF, it is easier to get recognized by the high school assignors and get rewarded because of it. (It only took me a couple of years to start getting higher level centers.) This is only true for regular season high school as tournament time it is all about who you know and who knows you which leads to many folks being on games that they shouldn't be on.

Honestly, there is also a severe referee shortage that they are constantly sending out emails every day desperately trying to get folks to fill games, so you can get games this way as well. We always need more young talent that know the game and can stay with play.

If you want more information, feel free to PM me.


Everything he says is true. Not sure where you live but you'll move up faster if you're good in the GCL/MVC than in the GWOC. Unless you're related to the GWOC assignor. Severe nepotism up there.

I'm a USSF assignor so if you're licensed there let me know.

steelboot 10-23-15 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaaaveYouMetTed (Post 6256144)
My understanding is that if the defender trapped the ball with the intent that the keeper would pick it up, that's an infraction and the ref should award an indirect free kick at the spot where the keeper picked it up. Because there's no "pass" back to the keeper in this situation, it might be difficult for a ref to say the trap was "deliberate" as the rule contemplates the term, but if the ref thinks it's on purpose then it's definitely a violation.

The rule calls for the ball to be placed where the keeper picked it up. In this scenario, that would mean an indirect free kick from 1 or 2 feet in front of the goal. Because the defending team cannot stand within 10 yards of the goal, it would seem that all the offensive team would have to do is touch the ball and pass it into a wide open goal. I'm not sure if the 10 yard rule is enforced so close to the goal though.

The defensive team can line up on the goalline. We had a similar situation in a tournament final a few years ago "Illegal" touching by the keeper and we had an indirect free kick right about the 6 yard box and the other team packed the goal. My player blasted the ball top shelf for the game winner.

phatneff 10-24-15 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelboot (Post 6292262)
The defensive team can line up on the goalline. We had a similar situation in a tournament final a few years ago "Illegal" touching by the keeper and we had an indirect free kick right about the 6 yard box and the other team packed the goal. My player blasted the ball top shelf for the game winner.

Your player blasted it top shelf after first being touched you mean, right?

BacknBlack 10-26-15 03:04 PM

Team A is awarded a PK for a foul in the box. Team A striker takes the PK and hits the sidebar (the goalie made no contact with the shot). The rebound went back out into the field of play and with a second attempt the striker buried it. The referee called it a goal, pointing to the center circle. Team B coach looses it arguing that the striker cannot be the first player to touch the ball and the goal should not count. Who is correct, what is the rule. Thanks

soref 10-27-15 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BacknBlack (Post 6296338)
Team A is awarded a PK for a foul in the box. Team A striker takes the PK and hits the sidebar (the goalie made no contact with the shot). The rebound went back out into the field of play and with a second attempt the striker buried it. The referee called it a goal, pointing to the center circle. Team B coach looses it arguing that the striker cannot be the first player to touch the ball and the goal should not count. Who is correct, what is the rule. Thanks

On any free kick, the player taking the free kick can not be the first player to touch the ball after the ball has been put in to play. The play should have been stopped and an IFK should have been given to the defending team.

HaaaveYouMetTed 10-27-15 09:53 AM

What is the rule regarding suspensions following red cards? For some reason, I heard some parents discussing this at a recent game, and for some reason I have it in my head that a player who receives a straight red card is suspended for a game while a player who is shown two yellows in the same game is disqualified from that game but is eligible to play in the next match. Is that correct or did I just make that up?

soref 10-27-15 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaaaveYouMetTed (Post 6297375)
What is the rule regarding suspensions following red cards? For some reason, I heard some parents discussing this at a recent game, and for some reason I have it in my head that a player who receives a straight red card is suspended for a game while a player who is shown two yellows in the same game is disqualified from that game but is eligible to play in the next match. Is that correct or did I just make that up?

2nd Caution = no suspension
Straight Red = 2 game suspension
http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/rglts/SO.pdf

HaaaveYouMetTed 10-28-15 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soref (Post 6297570)
2nd Caution = no suspension
Straight Red = 2 game suspension
http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/rglts/SO.pdf

Thanks. Might have been common knowledge, but certainly good to know at tournament time.

MJ_SoccerRef 10-29-15 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaaaveYouMetTed (Post 6297375)
What is the rule regarding suspensions following red cards? For some reason, I heard some parents discussing this at a recent game, and for some reason I have it in my head that a player who receives a straight red card is suspended for a game while a player who is shown two yellows in the same game is disqualified from that game but is eligible to play in the next match. Is that correct or did I just make that up?

In addition HYMT, a player receiving a 2nd Caution -> Red in a JV match IS able to play in the V match that follows, subject to the 3 half daily limit. IOW, he/she is not ‘done for the day’.

EastYoungstown 11-16-15 09:56 AM

Me again....

So I have a question concerning the clock and high school soccer. Neither of my sons are old enough to play HS yet so I am not very familiar with how things go at the end of games and the end of halves.

Is there any consideration for injury time at all? Does the ref just blow the whistle at the end? Does the ref even blow a final whistle or does a buzzer just go off when time is up?

I ask because we were in Virginia at a big tournament this weekend and the ref actually blew the whistle while a corner was in the air at halftime. I couldn't believe it. None of us could. He literally blew the whistle while the ball was in flight. Remarkable. Why even let them take the corner if your just gonna blow the whistle as soon as the kid kicks it?

I thought this was bizarre and the only thing I could think of is how the clock is handled at the high school level. Maybe the ref also does high school and takes the clock that literal?

CintiRef3 11-16-15 10:54 AM

In HS soccer, the clock counts down. There is no added time, so when the clock hits zero, the half or game is over. Does not matter if the ball is on it's way to the back of the net.

The referee stops the clock for injuries, goals and cards.

Hope this helps

bucksman 11-19-15 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CintiRef3 (Post 6326048)
In HS soccer, the clock counts down. There is no added time, so when the clock hits zero, the half or game is over. Does not matter if the ball is on it's way to the back of the net.

The referee stops the clock for injuries, goals and cards.

Hope this helps

Which is to say when there is a visible clock, the referee will signal the scorekeeper to stop the clock; and if there's not a visible clock, it's supposed to be a "real stop" and not a "theoretical stop".

EastYoungstown 06-30-16 10:22 AM

Was at US Club Soccer Regionals this weekend.

It was hot so coaches and refs agreed to water breaks each half. No problem there of course.

The thing I found odd was that the ref actually kept the clock running through both breaks, taking about 8 minutes off of a 70 minute game that was pretty even and ended 1-0.

I found that quite bizarre to lose that much time.

Is this normal?

I've done breaks before while reffing games but always paused the time or just broke the game down into quarters to make things easier.


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