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Monclova Steve 10-07-17 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackHawk (Post 6861293)
Joe Morgan, Cesar Geronimo, Cactus Jack Billingham, Denis Menke and Ed Armbrister for Lee May, Tommy Helms and Jimmy Stewart.

Best. Trade. Ever.

I won't argue that one. That's probably the greatest trade the Reds have ever made.
I will only say that the George Foster trade with the Giants -- for Vern Geishert and Frank Duffy -- has to rank up there as well.

BlackHawk 10-08-17 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monclova Steve (Post 6862866)
I won't argue that one. That's probably the greatest trade the Reds have ever made.
I will only say that the George Foster trade with the Giants -- for Vern Geishert and Frank Duffy -- has to rank up there as well.

How about when the Reds got Milt Pappas, Jack Baldschun and Dick Simpson for Frank Robinson? ;)

Monclova Steve 10-08-17 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackHawk (Post 6863179)
How about when the Reds got Milt Pappas, Jack Baldschun and Dick Simpson for Frank Robinson? ;)

Please don't remind me. I was 13 when I read about that one. I actually started crying :dang:.

14Red 10-09-17 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastside_purple (Post 6860443)
Iím fine with Duvall in left, Iím also fine with dealing him for value. People like 14red way overrate him and try to call him elite; heís definitely not elite. I took Tacoís comments about Duvallís consistency. This is two years in a row where he pretty much collapsed in the second half of the year. I see both sides, but looking at him as a whole, Iíd look to keep him if they think they have any shot at competing in the next 2 years.

He's been at or near the team lead in home runs and RBI's the two years we've had him, and he's played a great left field defensively. He's certainly been better than average, and he's extremely cheap right now.

Taco MacArthur 10-09-17 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864045)
He's been at or near the team lead in home runs and RBI's the two years we've had him, and he's played a great left field defensively. He's certainly been better than average, and he's extremely cheap right now.

None of that make him elite though.

eastside_purple 10-09-17 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864045)
He's been at or near the team lead in home runs and RBI's the two years we've had him, and he's played a great left field defensively. He's certainly been better than average, and he's extremely cheap right now.

Yeah, I said he was fine. He's just not close to elite as you've tried to portray him. :shrug:

14Red 10-09-17 11:54 AM

Watching Aroldis Chapman last night do what he does got me to thinking about the Reds fans who still thought he could be a starter...

He's got a great fastball, and struggles like heck to get any other pitches over for strikes regularly. Typical save last night, got in trouble in the 9th, blew away Bruce with three straight fastballs after going down 2-0, then got the flyout to end the game. Is that closer role still overrated??

Taco MacArthur 10-09-17 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864398)
Watching Aroldis Chapman last night do what he does got me to thinking about the Reds fans who still thought he could be a starter...

He's got a great fastball, and struggles like heck to get any other pitches over for strikes regularly. Typical save last night, got in trouble in the 9th, blew away Bruce with three straight fastballs after going down 2-0, then got the flyout to end the game. Is that closer role still overrated??

For a team like the Yankees who have World Series aspirations? No. For a team like the Reds in 2015 who finished with 68 wins? Yes. When your team sucks (as the Reds did in 2015) you don't need a closer. You need starting pitching and every day players on the field.

14Red 10-09-17 12:51 PM

How do we know baseball is struggling from a fan standpoint??? You literally can't find baseball on the radio during the playoffs. Yes, the Indians games are on through local broadcasts, but you can't find any of the other games anymore. The ratings are so bad that ESPN puts on it's regular programming instead of the playoff games??

14Red 10-09-17 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur (Post 6864415)
For a team like the Yankees who have World Series aspirations? No. For a team like the Reds in 2015 who finished with 68 wins? Yes. When your team sucks (as the Reds did in 2015) you don't need a closer. You need starting pitching and every day players on the field.

Taco, I just did a quick look at the pre-season predictions, no one had the Yankees contending. Next...

Taco MacArthur 10-09-17 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864476)
Taco, I just did a quick look at the pre-season predictions, no one had the Yankees contending. Next...

I fail to see your point. Preseason predictions are irrelevant. On a crappy (2016 Reds) team, an elite closer is overrated.

Taco MacArthur 10-09-17 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864472)
How do we know baseball is struggling from a fan standpoint??? You literally can't find baseball on the radio during the playoffs. Yes, the Indians games are on through local broadcasts, but you can't find any of the other games anymore. The ratings are so bad that ESPN puts on it's regular programming instead of the playoff games??

ESPN has the rights to the AL Wild Card game. So yes....they will have regular programming on instead of the playoff games. You can find those on TBS, FS1, Fox and the MLB Network.

14Red 10-09-17 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur (Post 6864530)
I fail to see your point. Preseason predictions are irrelevant. On a crappy (2015 Reds) team, an elite closer is overrated.

Here is your fallacy Taco, you always look at things after they happen. No one has any idea if they are contenders or not going into a season. Why would you get rid of a closer if you may actually be good? What if the Yankees - thinking they were not going to be any good, would have got rid of Chapman before the season?

Also, as I've pointed out on many occastions, the 20-30 games a closer saves can make all the difference in a team making the playoffs and not making the playoffs. Actually, a 10 game swing in a 162 game season can make all the difference. Good or bad, I want a solid closer.

14Red 10-09-17 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur (Post 6864535)
ESPN has the rights to the AL Wild Card game. So yes....they will have regular programming on instead of the playoff games. You can find those on TBS, FS1, Fox and the MLB Network.

Radio...radio...radio...

Taco MacArthur 10-09-17 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864549)
Radio...radio...radio...

Still need the rights....still need the rights...still need the rights...

Taco MacArthur 10-09-17 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864548)
Here is your fallacy Taco, you always look at things after they happen. No one has any idea if they are contenders or not going into a season. Why would you get rid of a closer if you may actually be good? What if the Yankees - thinking they were not going to be any good, would have got rid of Chapman before the season?

Also, as I've pointed out on many occastions, the 20-30 games a closer saves can make all the difference in a team making the playoffs and not making the playoffs. Actually, a 10 game swing in a 162 game season can make all the difference. Good or bad, I want a solid closer.

No, I don't always look at things after they happen. I looked at the Yankees from last year, an 84 win team, who improved their roster. Upgraded at catcher, RF, DH, SP and got more experienced with younger guys at 2B and SS. Could they have gotten worse or stayed the same? Sure, but common sense says they would have gotten better this year (and shocker, they did).

That is a stark difference in 2016 Reds who had no proven #1 or #2 starting pitchers, essentially a rookie at catcher, 35 year old Brandon Phillips, 30 year old Cozart, essentially 2 more rookies in Suarez and Duvall, and the ever streaky hitter in Bruce. Couple that with a Billy Hamilton who hit .226 the year before and Votto. Use some common sense.

You're right. No one knows if they are contenders or not before the season starts. That's why teams use common sense. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a team that won 84 games and improved their roster would likely improve. While a team who won 64 games and significantly downgraded their SP + brought on multiple unknowns will at best marginally improve and more likely, stay the same.

Even if the Reds did keep Chapman for last year at BEST they would have went from 68 wins last year to 78. That does nothing to improve the Reds in the long run. It hurts their rebuild. Your fallacy is you don't use common sense, at all.

Monclova Steve 10-09-17 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864472)
How do we know baseball is struggling from a fan standpoint??? You literally can't find baseball on the radio during the playoffs. Yes, the Indians games are on through local broadcasts, but you can't find any of the other games anymore. The ratings are so bad that ESPN puts on it's regular programming instead of the playoff games??

Well, this kinda contradicts what you're saying:

http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-re...lb-postseason/

Monclova Steve 10-09-17 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14Red (Post 6864549)
Radio...radio...radio...

OK, here is ESPN's announcement that they're broadcasting every inning of the playoffs on, yes -- ESPN RADIO:
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-re...lb-postseason/

Just because you can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

eastside_purple 10-09-17 08:59 PM

Thanks Sig!

:laugh: 14red

Sig Hansen 10-09-17 09:07 PM

You're a fool 14 Red.


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