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-   -   Public private split (http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301219)

Sportingchance 03-26-17 11:19 AM

Public private split
 
Has there been any serious consideration to having the public schools separate or vice versa? I am new to this area and have been reading some of the post. I posted this on the basketball forum because the conversation is way better here than on the football site. There is a lot of emotion over there. My kids feed into a d1 public school with no open enrollment. I don't have a dog in the fight in terms of an opinion yet as they are still in elementary school.

Termite2 03-26-17 11:24 AM

This is the first time someone has brought this up :rolleyes:

CatAlum 03-26-17 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sportingchance (Post 6736967)
Has there been any serious consideration to having the public schools separate or vice versa? I am new to this area and have been reading some of the post. I posted this on the basketball forum because the conversation is way better here than on the football site. There is a lot of emotion over there. My kids feed into a d1 public school with no open enrollment. I don't have a dog in the fight in terms of an opinion yet as they are still in elementary school.

If it's a reasonably wealthy district, your public school district will likely win plenty of sporting events. If not, you probably won't.

skyvue 03-26-17 01:12 PM

I would be open to considering a split, but only if it did not create even more divisions and further water down the accomplishment of a state title. We already have one too many divisions in basketball and 3 too many in football in my opinion!

For basketball though, one division for all private schools and 3 for the public schools would be roughly equivalent to what we have today. It would perhaps satisfy all the "recruiting and transfer" complainers, which would be a better outcome than actually putting in rules that prevented kids from transferring whenever they want to.

Bo Kimble 03-26-17 01:18 PM

In education there has never been a time of "more options" why wouldn't an extra-curricular in sports reflect that?

skyvue 03-26-17 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Kimble (Post 6737048)
In education there has never been a time of "more options" why wouldn't an extra-curricular in sports reflect that?

Not sure I understand your point? I have a lot of options for where I send my kid to school. They can attend the local public school or any of a number of a half dozen or so private options in the area, if I am willing to pay for it.

If the public school is lousy where I live, I can move to one that is better. So I think all kids do have a lot of options?

22 Acacia Ave 03-26-17 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyvue (Post 6737041)
We already have one too many divisions in basketball and 3 too many in football in my opinion!

But then how would the small private schools with big city talent win banners for their gymnasiums without D5, D6 and D7 farmers to walk over?

tcgobucks 03-26-17 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyvue (Post 6737041)
I would be open to considering a split, but only if it did not create even more divisions and further water down the accomplishment of a state title. We already have one too many divisions in basketball and 3 too many in football in my opinion!

For basketball though, one division for all private schools and 3 for the public schools would be roughly equivalent to what we have today. It would perhaps satisfy all the "recruiting and transfer" complainers, which would be a better outcome than actually putting in rules that prevented kids from transferring whenever they want to.


Yes, because Fostoria St. Wendelin vs Lakewood St. Edwards would be an intriguing matchup lol. Seriously, people need to let it go. Leave it like it is....public schools can win titles and when they do it means a lot more to them than the priviate school fan bases who likely don't know more than 1 or 2 kids on the entire team. My HS has 3 state titles in basketball (D2 and D3) and lost in the final once....and we are about as rural and public as it gets. We also had over 4000 fans at our games (from a town of around 4000 people)....wouldn't trade it for anything....funny thing is, all 4 of the final we were in were played against another public school. So it's not like publics can't get to the final game.

Bo Kimble 03-26-17 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyvue (Post 6737053)
Not sure I understand your point? I have a lot of options for where I send my kid to school. They can attend the local public school or any of a number of a half dozen or so private options in the area, if I am willing to pay for it.

If the public school is lousy where I live, I can move to one that is better. So I think all kids do have a lot of options?

I'm not sure why probably 75-25 split on this board is concerned with limiting kids and their families' choices as far as educational & athletic opportunities.

Krasula24 03-26-17 01:35 PM

We won't find out who's the actual "true" state champion if we separate public and private. Having a separation will just be a mess. All the enrollment figures will have to change, the divisional makeup will be a big mess, and some of these private schools make up most of the division numbers.

We will have a lack of competitiveness throughout sports if we separate. That's the last thing we want.

tcgobucks 03-26-17 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Kimble (Post 6737061)
I'm not sure why probably 75-25 split on this board is concerned with limiting kids and their families' choices as far as educational & athletic opportunities.

My kids closest private school options were both 25 miles away....there were 2....then it jumps up to 60 miles. Neither of the closer ones are a better school than the public school they attended....nor are the athletics better. The issue is when you a D4 private school (think Wellington or Lutheran East) drawing kids from a population of a million people playing against D4 schools drawing from 1000 people that it's just obvious based on numbers that it's going to be a mismatch. The new system will move schools like LE and Welling up at least one division, which I think is reasonable....splitting the publics and privates into separate divisions isn't.

BulldogBob 03-26-17 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyvue (Post 6737041)
I would be open to considering a split, but only if it did not create even more divisions and further water down the accomplishment of a state title. We already have one too many divisions in basketball and 3 too many in football in my opinion!

For basketball though, one division for all private schools and 3 for the public schools would be roughly equivalent to what we have today. It would perhaps satisfy all the "recruiting and transfer" complainers, which would be a better outcome than actually putting in rules that prevented kids from transferring whenever they want to.

Good post. Couldn't agree more! Either that, or put all privates in D1 for basketball.

sportsauthority101 03-26-17 01:52 PM

Everyone has choices in life. If ppl want to move, they can move. Garfield, Shaker, Huber Hts. - they have more transfers than anyone. Jackson & Mentor always say proud of homegrown...they're also are very fortunate to have wealthy communities with huge enrollments. How many ppl move to Mentor or Jackson when their kids are young for sports reasons? When you have pool of 2500-4000 kids, you should be able to beat private schools.

Jackson coach is a knucklehead to talk "homegrown" in post game interview. He just got 3-4 calls that gave him the game and he gloats about being homegrown? He also got all the breaks versus Eds with the Officials. Possible Ref Agenda? He better enjoy this one - not every year do you have 5 kids like that in one town!

Wealthy communities with quality living have their own unfair advantages where ppl choose to live and play for FREE....and Mentor/Jackson enrollment size prooves it. Catholic school parents pay $2500+ year for grade schools and $8-$15K for HS. Kids that attend the private schools don't live in great school districts with great sports programs. Many drive their kids an hour each way for 2-3 years or even 4.... every day! Kids get home at 8 with dinner, shower, and 3 hours of homework. You fools condemn ppl who want to be part of great programs AND who pay for and experience what you do - for free?

If you want to live in a rural community and can't compete, either; move, get better, or accept your fate.

Start your Public only tournament and the Private will have theirs. Guarantee you which one the fans will watch!

skyvue 03-26-17 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcgobucks (Post 6737059)
Yes, because Fostoria St. Wendelin vs Lakewood St. Edwards would be an intriguing matchup lol. Seriously, people need to let it go. Leave it like it is....public schools can win titles and when they do it means a lot more to them than the priviate school fan bases who likely don't know more than 1 or 2 kids on the entire team. My HS has 3 state titles in basketball (D2 and D3) and lost in the final once....and we are about as rural and public as it gets. We also had over 4000 fans at our games (from a town of around 4000 people)....wouldn't trade it for anything....funny thing is, all 4 of the final we were in were played against another public school. So it's not like publics can't get to the final game.

I get your point, but the good D1 private school teams already beat their opening sectional D1 opponent by 40 points! So, really I don't think there would be more blowouts past round 1, but some of those initial matchups would be ugly when Moeller or Ed's plays some obscure, tiny Christian school.

skyvue 03-26-17 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Kimble (Post 6737061)
I'm not sure why probably 75-25 split on this board is concerned with limiting kids and their families' choices as far as educational & athletic opportunities.

Not sure either, I am certainly not one who wants to limit choice.

tcgobucks 03-26-17 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyvue (Post 6737079)
I get your point, but the good D1 private school teams already beat their opening sectional D1 opponent by 40 points! So, really I don't think there would be more blowouts past round 1, but some of those initial matchups would be ugly when Moeller or Ed's plays some obscure, tiny Christian school.

If you put all of the privates in 1 division, you would realistically have 6 or 8 that have a chance of winning it all in football....and maybe that many in basketball. You would basically be taking the chance of a state title away from 98% of the private schools in the state. Separating public and private is one thing, but to say put them in one division is ridiculous. 90% of the smaller D3 and D4 privates couldn't beat the top public D2's or a lot of the public D1's. Grouping all Privates into one group is like saying Mason is the same as Ft Jennings (look it up) because they're both public.

Myron 03-26-17 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Kimble (Post 6737061)
I'm not sure why probably 75-25 split on this board is concerned with limiting kids and their families' choices as far as educational & athletic opportunities.

Public, private denominational, private non-denominational, open enrollment, charter, magnet, vo-ed, online, CCP, AP, SPED, and the list goes on and on. If the competition and coaching isn't good enough for you at an Metro All-Star school like Eds or Moeller or StV or Alter, transfer to a sports specialization school like Findlay Prep, IMG, or Huntington Prep.

No choices is one of these Zombie Lies that never seems to die. There's never been more options available to high school kids

afwpatfire 03-26-17 02:14 PM

We should let each school be in their own division then everyone can be Champs. We talk and talk about this, but there is never going to be a solution where there aren't unhappy people. Only a few teams can win a state championship every year. Some teams have better chances than others, so be it.

kingpin2010 03-26-17 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcgobucks (Post 6737091)
If you put all of the privates in 1 division, you would realistically have 6 or 8 that have a chance of winning it all in football....and maybe that many in basketball. You would basically be taking the chance of a state title away from 98% of the private schools in the state. Separating public and private is one thing, but to say put them in one division is ridiculous. 90% of the smaller D3 and D4 privates couldn't beat the top public D2's or a lot of the public D1's. Grouping all Privates into one group is like saying Mason is the same as Ft Jennings (look it up) because they're both public.

We played a school in the first round this year, Heartland Christian (who's enrollment is like 40 kids), that would lose the majority of their games to D4 JV squads. They didn't win a game and lost the majority by 50+ to average D4 schools, now just imagine that against a team like St Ed's.

EaglePride01 03-26-17 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyvue (Post 6737041)
I would be open to considering a split, but only if it did not create even more divisions and further water down the accomplishment of a state title. We already have one too many divisions in basketball and 3 too many in football in my opinion!

For basketball though, one division for all private schools and 3 for the public schools would be roughly equivalent to what we have today. It would perhaps satisfy all the "recruiting and transfer" complainers, which would be a better outcome than actually putting in rules that prevented kids from transferring whenever they want to.

The "recruiting" complainers perhaps, but the transfer epidemic seems to be more prevalent in the public landscape as far as basketball is concerned. Besides, publics do quite well in basketball, no?

buckeye53 03-26-17 02:37 PM

In California, if you are completely dominating your division, you are moved up. If a smaller school is "recruiting" to the point that no one their size can compete, they're moved up, and continue to do so all the way to the top division. If separation should take place, you could shorten the regular season by 1 game, and let the private and public champs play each other.

EaglePride01 03-26-17 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckeye53 (Post 6737114)
In California, if you are completely dominating your division, you are moved up. If a smaller school is "recruiting" to the point that no one their size can compete, they're moved up, and continue to do so all the way to the top division. If separation should take place, you could shorten the regular season by 1 game, and let the private and public champs play each other.

I do think playing up, or having an Open Division, is a concept the OHSAA should incorporate. The chief complainers are from the smaller, rural publics and some of their complaints have merit.

kingpin2010 03-26-17 02:44 PM

I don't want to see a split, I just think no one wins from that. I am ok with the competitive balance or others of the ilk that raise/lower teams by division for a multitude of factors, including things like success over an extended period of time.

afwpatfire 03-26-17 03:08 PM

I also would not favor a split. Not sure if I would favor teams moving up either.

kingpin2010 03-26-17 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afwpatfire (Post 6737137)
I also would not favor a split. Not sure if I would favor teams moving up either.

I think it should be in a small amount of cases, and should be based mainly on sustained success at the state level among other factors. ST V and VASJ are the 2 that primarily come to mind in NE Ohio that get bumped.

sportsauthority101 03-26-17 03:14 PM

Its happening in Ohio as well. St. V is D1 next year and VASJ is D2 - that is the apparent change

Scibourne 03-26-17 03:29 PM

I don't want to see a split but it got ugly in D3 and D4 over the weekend. If Jackson doesn't eke out a win it is a sweep for private schools in boys basketball. This is after a 6 of 7 football titles won by private schools. I believe private schools swept the boys soccer titles too. I don't blame private schools for recruiting and emphasizing athletic success as it helps increase enrollment. It's about making happy alums and bigger donations. I totally get it. Schools like SVSM and VASJ operate like little colleges. But schools like Wauseon and Archbold don't operate on that model. Hopefully competitive balance will level the playing field a bit but if that doesn't work then maybe a split is inevitable. Times have changed and maybe we need to rethink the whole concept of "classifications" in a world where students are shopping for schools and vice-versa.

superfan88 03-26-17 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyvue (Post 6737041)
I would be open to considering a split, but only if it did not create even more divisions and further water down the accomplishment of a state title. We already have one too many divisions in basketball and 3 too many in football in my opinion!

For basketball though, one division for all private schools and 3 for the public schools would be roughly equivalent to what we have today. It would perhaps satisfy all the "recruiting and transfer" complainers, which would be a better outcome than actually putting in rules that prevented kids from transferring whenever they want to.

Do you really believe it would be fair and good judgement to first, assume all private schools are on a level playing field, second, that they all recruit the same way you assume some of the them do, and that this would be good policy? Should a school such as delphos St. John's really be expected to compete with moeller, st Ed's, of st X?? All of this because you're mad at a handful of schools that you believe are cheating?? Why not scold the ohsaa for being such a spineless organization who won't punish any school with any real penalty

afwpatfire 03-26-17 03:38 PM

The blame lies in the system not the schools, as mentioned above.

buckeye53 03-26-17 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfan88 (Post 6737156)
Do you really believe it would be fair and good judgement to first, assume all private schools are on a level playing field, second, that they all recruit the same way you assume some of the them do, and that this would be good policy? Should a school such as delphos St. John's really be expected to compete with moeller, st Ed's, of st X?? All of this because you're mad at a handful of schools that you believe are cheating?? Why not scold the ohsaa for being such a spineless organization who won't punish any school with any real penalty

You sir, have hit the nail on the head. Bravo !


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