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-   -   Flopping, good coaching or bad coaching? (http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308003)

bigkat 11-12-17 05:58 PM

Flopping, good coaching or bad coaching?
 
couple of weeks ago saw Michigans QB Flop twice after throwing an interception once acted like he got blocked in the back going out of bounds and then when he was on the sideline of the opposing team, faked it and went down...and it drew a FLAG for personal foul from the other team...he gets up and is smiling as he runs away.....

this weekend while Minster is playing Crestview , Minster QB has a LONG run going and two of the Knights players act like they are blocked in the back and fall down. One of the players who FLOPPED fell down even though there wasn't a Minster player within 5 yards of the Crestview player. I think it is pretty bad coaching , teaching your players that CHEATING way of drawing a flag....

your thoughts?

ColerainWinsAgain 11-12-17 06:30 PM

My thoughts are simple, good coaching, poor morals. Utilizing anything in the rulebook to gain an advantage is good coaching, utilizing anything in the rulebook to gain an advantage is immoral as well. My dad used to coach us in soccer to stop a pressing attacker from receiving a pass by grabbing the back of the jersey and jerking straight down. The refs would never see it because you don't pull the jersey away from the body, but choking the opponent and hindering his progress would stop the attack dead in its' tracks. To be fair, you aren't going to get caught, but ethically it's wrong. Still did it, still would today, gotta play smart and gain every advantage available.

chs1971 11-12-17 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColerainWinsAgain (Post 6910790)
My thoughts are simple, good coaching, poor morals. Utilizing anything in the rulebook to gain an advantage is good coaching, utilizing anything in the rulebook to gain an advantage is immoral as well.

Immoral? A sin? Something God will punish them for? Really?

How about unethical instead?

USA70PP 11-12-17 06:48 PM

How about when it is retaliated against? How about the coach takes a page from ice hockey, puts a player in that the team can afford to have ejected, and have him take the flopper out of the game for good? Good coaching...poor morals...which?

clarkgriswold 11-12-17 06:59 PM

It's chicken$h!+. Play the game right.

hsfan60 11-12-17 07:05 PM

Clark, Double Ditto!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkgriswold (Post 6910812)
It's chicken$h!+. Play the game right.

If you want to be a class B actor go pout for the school play

ColerainWinsAgain 11-12-17 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USA70PP (Post 6910805)
How about when it is retaliated against? How about the coach takes a page from ice hockey, puts a player in that the team can afford to have ejected, and have him take the flopper out of the game for good? Good coaching...poor morals...which?

I mean, I would do it... I never said I was all for fair play, take every advantage you can get. Basketball for example, if someone on the other team is flopping my philosophy is to put them on their and make them feel it if you're getting a foul called on you anyway.

fridayguru 11-13-17 08:34 AM

Wow. I watched the replay. Actually, Minster got away with anything they wanted on holding, offsides, etc. and no calls were made. Very strong accusations just because minster was within one play of getting beat and a first and goal with no time to punch a final TD in by Crestview.

I understand trying to deflect. Minster was not the better team. Crestview had the two best players on the field and pushed Minster around all night. Minster drove the field on non-calls. Its pretty funny that after posting such great things about the Crestview QB, you come back with sewage posts like this.

Minster got beat in every facet of the game besides the final score. Defensive yards given up. Special teams return yards. Tackles. Every stat you can think of. To call a players and coaches cheaters is wrong. Sad, sad post.

CardDad 11-13-17 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColerainWinsAgain (Post 6910790)
My thoughts are simple, good coaching, poor morals. Utilizing anything in the rulebook to gain an advantage is good coaching, utilizing anything in the rulebook to gain an advantage is immoral as well. My dad used to coach us in soccer to stop a pressing attacker from receiving a pass by grabbing the back of the jersey and jerking straight down. The refs would never see it because you don't pull the jersey away from the body, but choking the opponent and hindering his progress would stop the attack dead in its' tracks. To be fair, you aren't going to get caught, but ethically it's wrong. Still did it, still would today, gotta play smart and gain every advantage available.

The main reason why I cannot watch soccer. I would be embarrassed if my kid went down the way soccer players are taught to flop everytime they are touched even a little bit. No place for this in sports at all. Man up, play hard, quit acting. And yes, we are starting to see it some even in the NFL.

chs1971 11-13-17 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayguru (Post 6911160)
Wow. I watched the replay. Actually, Minster got away with anything they wanted on holding, offsides, etc. and no calls were made.

Maybe the OHSAA wanted Minster to win.

bigkat 11-13-17 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayguru (Post 6911160)
Wow. I watched the replay. Actually, Minster got away with anything they wanted on holding, offsides, etc. and no calls were made. Very strong accusations just because minster was within one play of getting beat and a first and goal with no time to punch a final TD in by Crestview.

I understand trying to deflect. Minster was not the better team. Crestview had the two best players on the field and pushed Minster around all night. Minster drove the field on non-calls. Its pretty funny that after posting such great things about the Crestview QB, you come back with sewage posts like this.

Minster got beat in every facet of the game besides the final score. Defensive yards given up. Special teams return yards. Tackles. Every stat you can think of. To call a players and coaches cheaters is wrong. Sad, sad post.

wow, how is the blood pressure.....focus...the question is about FLOPPING, is it good coaching or bad coaching.....if you just want to troll, find somewhere else, in the mean time, go to the corner of the room, sit on your butt, and insert your thumb back into your mouth.....

fridayguru 11-13-17 01:56 PM

No no no. You said players were coached to CHEAT (in all caps) and called out coaches (sound familiar?). After watching the game on hudl, I can 100% tell you that not only did Crestview not flop, they were also the better team BY FAR. Hats off to Huelsman. Heck of a player. But Crestview was better in every facet except the scoreboard. Its sad when someone gets on here and tries to justify a close game by making false accusations.

Go ahead and watch the film again. The "flopping" you are talking about resulted in the final 8 points for Minster. There were clear and evident false starts on the drive as well. It was sad......

And no chs. I doubt the OHSAA wanted Minster to win. By the looks on the tape, Crestview had triple the crowd of Minster. I bet they would rather see a fan base travel.

Good luck to the Jays on Friday!

serpico 11-13-17 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayguru (Post 6911160)
Minster got beat in every facet of the game besides the final score.

And yet, that's all anyone will remember.

Oh, and congrats on your 'Moderated User' status :laugh:

fridayguru 11-13-17 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico (Post 6911536)
And yet, that's all anyone will remember.

Oh, and congrats on your 'Moderated User' status :laugh:

Thank you sir. It means I got the attention of many. Its good having a following and know that people want to hear what I say :)

moderating the voice of many whom quiets the voice of few is fascism. But that's just the way it goes!

bigkat 11-13-17 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico (Post 6911536)
And yet, that's all anyone will remember.

Oh, and congrats on your 'Moderated User' status :laugh:

trust me, Minster Didn't get beat in every phase of that game...Guru is being Guru......TROLL BOY

fridayguru 11-13-17 03:57 PM

Can you name one statistical category Minster won? Just curious. I believe they lost the "flags against" category too. I will say this. They won in least amount of fans to show up for a game. The tape from Hudl shows a deplorable amount of people in the crowd compared to the Crestview side.

StateChampion2012 11-13-17 05:57 PM

This thread isn't about Minster and Crestview but I'll bite. I thought those teams were pretty dang equal. I picked Minster to win because they were senior laden. Crestview returns Kline and Sheets next year and very well could end up in Canton.

bigkat 11-13-17 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayguru (Post 6911700)
Can you name one statistical category Minster won? Just curious. I believe they lost the "flags against" category too. I will say this. They won in least amount of fans to show up for a game. The tape from Hudl shows a deplorable amount of people in the crowd compared to the Crestview side.

that is simply wrong from my sources----- Minster had 1,125 people there and Crestview had 1,124.......again you are wrong...

Kyle_E_Woyote 11-14-17 12:13 AM

As long as it isn't flip flopping.

fridayguru 11-14-17 09:54 AM

Lol. Good one with the sources. Mine are legit. Seriously though, I have no skin in this game besides disliking Minster and after all the banter, I would figure you were above calling kids and coaches names. Kids read these boards right? And you call kids cheaters?

All I know is this.....I would hate to be Minster's staff and hear that people were on message boards calling Crestview cheaters. Talking about something that will be put in locker rooms for a year while they prepare for next year's playoffs. Incentive to win will be UREAL.

I agree statechamp. Those two kids looked lights out. Have to be one of the favorites. From what I do know, Minster and the Jays graduate some very talented seniors. Not sure what Crestview graduates but if their studs are back, they can build around them. Without knowing the other side of the state as well, I cannot make conclusions. But if that NWC school can compete with the MAC with juniors, I would say they will compete as seniors.

stripedwarrior 11-14-17 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayguru (Post 6911700)
Can you name one statistical category Minster won? Just curious. I believe they lost the "flags against" category too. I will say this. They won in least amount of fans to show up for a game. The tape from Hudl shows a deplorable amount of people in the crowd compared to the Crestview side.

The only thing that Crestview really led in was rushing yds, and some of the things that would be related to a strong running game(# of plays, TOP, etc). Total yds for the game was fairly even. They were only separated by 37. First downs were only 23-20 in favor of Crestview.
Misnter led in passing related categories, and the most important one, points scored. Minster also led in extra points made. How big were the missed and blocked PATs? They also had more sacks, net yds per kickoff, and yds per play.

From the game that I watched, I think both teams got away with penalties. On Crestview's 1st, or 2nd TD, the receiver appeared to get away with a push off, creating separation in the back of the endzone. There were holding calls that could have been called against Crestview as well. So don't act like Minster got away with robbery.

From watching games for the past few years, it seems that in the playoffs, the refs tend to swallow their whistles when it comes to holding. It has to be pretty blatant to get called.

Did Crestview play well enough to win? Not on that night, but maybe on different night. Some could argue that Minster tried to give the game away with the pick 6. Crestview was definitely better than Minster for about 2-1/2 qtrs. Unfortunately for them, they play 4 qtrs in a game. Minster outscored them 22-6 in the last 17 minutes.

fridayguru 11-14-17 01:47 PM

Per Monnin, Kaylor's Twitter, etc. Crestview led in first downs, rushing yards, total yards, flags, take aways, points off of turnovers, etc. And from what I recall seeing, Crestview did not have a kickoff returned against them besides maybe the very first one?? There was a touchback and squib kicks. Their kicker was good. On the other hand, they returned nearly every kick for yardage. Are you using a yard per kick metric?? As far as sacks goes, was there a sack on either side of the ball? Some losses both ways from trying to rush the ball, but not sure any sacks.

I'll give you the extra points. Lol! It did matter. It was the difference in the game.

From the game I watched, there was two blatant holding penalties and one false start that would have resulted in a 3rd and forever (35 or more) on Minster's final scoring drive. There was also a fumble by Huelsman in the endzone that should have iced the game.

Now, I could care less. Rooting for the Jays. No dog in the fight. But for a Minster fan to get on here and throw low blows at a team they will face next year and give material to them......that's horrible. Makes minster look bad, the coaches won't like it (from either school) and makes the MAC look bad. As kat says....kids read this board as well. And I'm sure the Crestview kids are salivating from a poor choice to post about cheating.

big medicine 11-14-17 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayguru (Post 6911546)
Thank you sir. It means I got the attention of many. Its good having a following and know that people want to hear what I say :)

moderating the voice of many whom quiets the voice of few is fascism. But that's just the way it goes!


With New Bremen receiving it's first state championship in any team sport this past weekend in volleyball. It got me thinking about New Bremen's playoff run in football back in 2004 I believe it was. Losing to eventual state champ Hardin Northern in the district final.

Now you're probably wondering what one has to do with the other, (outside of both being New Bremen teams). and more importantly, what has this to do with Fridayguru ?

Well given Fridayguru's interest in all things Marion Local, coupled with his contacts and general mindset, he might be just the right person to look into this.

Leading the volleyball team was Paige Jones. If I recall correctly some of the big guns on the 04 football team were coach Howie Overman's son, Thobe, Leugers and possibly others.

Now I believe all of these players fathers are Marion Local graduates. Coincidence, or something deeper at play here ?

Fridayguru, your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to look into this matter. I anxiously await your findings.

bigkat 11-14-17 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripedwarrior (Post 6912571)
The only thing that Crestview really led in was rushing yds, and some of the things that would be related to a strong running game(# of plays, TOP, etc). Total yds for the game was fairly even. They were only separated by 37. First downs were only 23-20 in favor of Crestview.
Misnter led in passing related categories, and the most important one, points scored. Minster also led in extra points made. How big were the missed and blocked PATs? They also had more sacks, net yds per kickoff, and yds per play.

From the game that I watched, I think both teams got away with penalties. On Crestview's 1st, or 2nd TD, the receiver appeared to get away with a push off, creating separation in the back of the endzone. There were holding calls that could have been called against Crestview as well. So don't act like Minster got away with robbery.

From watching games for the past few years, it seems that in the playoffs, the refs tend to swallow their whistles when it comes to holding. It has to be pretty blatant to get called.

Did Crestview play well enough to win? Not on that night, but maybe on different night. Some could argue that Minster tried to give the game away with the pick 6. Crestview was definitely better than Minster for about 2-1/2 qtrs. Unfortunately for them, they play 4 qtrs in a game. Minster outscored them 22-6 in the last 17 minutes.

don't even try to explain it to the TROLL guru, he just puts stuff out there to get people fired up.....not playing that game with that CHILD anymore....

jtigerjoe 11-14-17 05:55 PM

When did this flopping get so big? Never heard it mentioned before this thread.

fridayguru 11-14-17 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtigerjoe (Post 6912868)
When did this flopping get so big? Never heard it mentioned before this thread.

I don't believe it did. I think this is a sad and misguided thread started and talking about something as crazy as CHEATING because our local media gave Crestview a lot of credit/questioned some calls and clock operator management and minster won on a dropped pass. :shrug:

bigkat 11-14-17 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtigerjoe (Post 6912868)
When did this flopping get so big? Never heard it mentioned before this thread.

have to go to the beginning of the thread before the CHILD Guru, decided to troll in here...

Lambeau Fields 11-14-17 07:05 PM

People largely don't complain about this when a punter does it. is it OK for a punter but bad for a defensive back to do it?

I'd say shame on any referee who makes a call on something they clearly didn't see.

chs1971 11-15-17 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtigerjoe (Post 6912868)
When did this flopping get so big? Never heard it mentioned before this thread.

I've never seen it at a game or on film.

bigkat 11-15-17 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayguru (Post 6912902)
I don't believe it did. I think this is a sad and misguided thread started and talking about something as crazy as CHEATING because our local media gave Crestview a lot of credit/questioned some calls and clock operator management and minster won on a dropped pass. :shrug:

classic..... did you get that from your sources? go back to the state park, and get some more info from your buddies


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