UA v. SC

[rjones]

Here are the latest top 10 times for UA & SC in each event.

200 Medley Relay: 1. UA 1:38.77, 2. SC 1:40.88.
200 Freestyle: 1. Joey Long UA 1:45.27, 2. Ryan Cutler UA 1:46.53, 4. Sean Neri UA 1:48.33, 5. Andrew Rabe UA 1:48.97 - No SC swimmer in top 10.
200 Individual Medley: 2. Adam Rabe UA 2:00.35, 3. Ian Reardon UA 2:02.03, 6. Sean Neri UA 2:03.48, 7. Joey Long UA 2:03.72, 8 Orion Swanson SC 2:03.89.
50 Freestyle: 4. Adam Rabe UA :22.21, 5. Brian Willi SC :22.26, 6. Andrew Rabe UA :22.31.
100 Butterfly: 2. Brian Willi SC :54.14, 4. Max Jelen UA :54.32, 5. Ryan Cutler UA :54.33, 6. Orion Swanson SC :54.53.
100 Freestyle: 4. Sean Neri UA :48.99, 5. Joey Long UA :49.14, 7. Andrew Rabe UA :49.58, 8. Adam Rabe UA :49.63 9. Ryan Cutler UA :49.73 - No SC swimmer in top 10.
500 Freestyle: 1. Joey Long UA 4:44.63, 2. Ryan Cutler UA 4:49.15, 3. Sean Neri UA 4:50.99, 6. Caleb Jack SC 5:00.50, 7. Alex Chin UA 5:01.76, 8. Ian Reardon UA 5:03.42, 10. Nick McKinley SC 5:07.16.
200 Freestyle Relay: 1. UA 1:28.52, 3. SC 1:29.90.
100 Backstroke: 1. Sean Neri UA :53.99, 4. Ian Reardon UA :55.46, 6. Thomas Trace UA :55.86, 7. Orion Swanson SC :55.93, 8. Brian Willi SC :56.02, 9. Max Jelen UA :56.24, 10. Alex Chin UA :56.34.
100 Breaststroke: 3. Adam Rabe UA 1:02.01, 4. Nick McKinley SC 1:02.73, 5. Ian Reardon UA 1:03.57, 6. Chris D’angelo SC 1:04.15, 7. Max Herath SC1:04.17.
400 Freestyle Relay: 1. UA 3:15.85, 4. SC 3:23.13.

Does anyone really think that SC can challenge for the District title...much less be competitive against UA this Friday?

[aquacard]

The season is young. Times start dropping after the heavy Xmas yardage. Not predicting victory for SC but both the head to head & the district will be closer than they look on paper.

[preeder61]

Joey Long can't swim every event at Districts and UA is currently first in 6 of the 12 district events, so the non-UA, non-SC guys will be stealing points in each event. I agree with aquacard, the season is just revving up, SC has not had that many meets and they do taper well. UA wins the dual meet, but the Districts will be closer.

[scwat]

Should be interesting meet to see. Definitely think UA is a prohibitive favorite, especially if scoring only three swimmers . If St Charles has any advantage it would be their depth, which would not show up here as much as at districts. UA has a first year coach and the two coaches are friends. Does deBear show his district lineup and go for an overwhelming victory? Does St Charles show its district lineup and try to keep it as close as possible, or do they train through the meet and swim their lineup in alternate events and hope that UA gets overconfident? Do the lineups and the psychology even matter? What effects have the holiday training had on times and are the teams both healthy? Should be fun to watch.

[thedutchman]

Anyone know time and location for this meet?

[bhs warrior]

Anyone know time and location for this meet?

At UA 6pm

[preeder61]

Ua 118 - Sc 58

[rjones]

The season is young. Times start dropping after the heavy Xmas yardage. Not predicting victory for SC but both the head to head & the district will be closer than they look on paper.

Nice call aquacard, 118 to 58; that is closer than on paper by at least a point or two.

[preeder61]

Yikes, how did I get the scoop on the score before jonesy commented. Are we to believe that the loyalest of all Bear fans was not at the meet? Of course I am joking you, looks like a good Bear victory as called. Can't wait to see some of the individual results in the morning paper.

Congrats to Coach de Bear.

[aquacard]

Wow! Impressive performace by UA. They won everything but the 50 where Willi touched out Rabe. They went 1,2 in the 200, IM, 100, 500, Back, Breast, & 400 Free Relay. SC had no diving. Here are the winning times:

200 medley relay: UA 1:40.03.
200 free: Long (UA) 1:47.01.
200 IM: Reardon (UA) 2:00.26.
50 free: Willi (SC) 22.96.
1M diving: Calhoun (UA) 139.65.
100 butterfly: Jelen (UA) 54.05.
100 free: Rabe (UA) 49.04.
500 free: Long (UA) 4:53.0.
200 free relay: UA 1:30.85.
100 back: Neri (UA) 54.07.
100 breast: Rabe (UA) 1:02.72.
400 free relay: UA 3:22.54.

Hopefully someone will post the full meet results somewhere as both teams had strong times throughout the lineup. UA's lineup looked to be their district one; not sure that SC had its district lineup, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome. They also swam a full JV meet which looked to be closer and probably went SC's way if they scored it. No question deBear has the Bears humming. Congratulations UA good meet. UA v. Cville should be very, very competitive.

[scwat]

Agreed. UA looked impressive. They have to be considered in the running for a state title, although this is a year with several outstanding teams. St Charles swam well from top to bottom, but is missing some top tier swimmers relative to the state's elite.

[swimfan]

The D1 state title is a 2 team race between X & STF. UA & Cville should battle for third.

[preeder61]

200 medley relay: UA 1:40.03. SC 1:41.63, SC-B 1:42.03
200 free: Long (UA) 1:47.01. Culter (UA) 1:48.42, Krumpelman (SC) 1:50.98
200 IM: Reardon (UA) 2:00.26. Rabe (UA) 2:01.74, McKinley (SC) 2:04.74
50 free: Willi (SC) 22.96. Rabe (UA) 23.06, Polter (SC) 23.15
1M diving: Calhoun (UA) 139.65. SC no divers
100 butterfly: Jelen (UA) 54.05. Willi (SC) 54.23, Chin (UA) 55.78
100 free: Rabe (UA) 49.04. Neri (UA) 49.46, Kocher (SC) 50.90
500 free: Long (UA) 4:53.0. Cutler (UA) 4:56.82, Jack (SC) 5:03.78
200 free relay: UA 1:30.85. (SC) 1:31.48
100 back: Neri (UA) 54.07. Trace (UA) 55.56, Kocher (SC) 55.89
100 breast: Rabe (UA) 1:02.72. Reardon (UA) 1:03.76, D'Angelo (SC) 1:04.80
400 free relay: UA 3:22.54. UA-B 3:25.87, SC 3:28.45

[WATERDAD]

What about all the other athletes who have recorded times faster or close to these times you all post here? Are we all to believe that nobody else is going to show up? You all can't assume that not a single person will slide into these gaps and take points. Races are won and lost by .01 of a second. Guess that's why we swim the tournaments after all isn't it. Some will thive on the competition and some will fold. Some will get sick and I promise you someone will complain that their taper was off or messed up by the coach. There is also the claim that the coach messed up the line up, this kid should have swam this event instead and so on. You all keep beating your chests and making claims but do you have a cyrstal ball? If you do please contact me I have some really important questions to ask it that don't involve High School Sports! Sorry guys it just seems bit over the top sometimes. Relax and enjoy the time spent watching your sons have fun in High School Sports. Because after it is all done it becomes history and in several years it's just not that important any more. Lately I have met parents who can spit out times from athletes 10. 20 and 30+ years ago who smoke a majority of the boys swimming today and the names are not familiar to most of the boys now. So yes it does become history, maybe something to hold onto for the glory days talks at class reunions but that's about it. Relax, have fun, tell you boys they are doing great and give 'em all a big pat on the back. In the big picture for the most part they are good kids who are staying on the right path to do good things in the real world.

[scwat]

Not really sure what your point is here WaterDad? I think most would agree that kids' efforts should be appreciated regardless of times and that good performances are not everything or confined to just a few kids. I for one agree with what I think you are saying that parents and spectators should not get too hung up with all of this stuff, but I do not see anything inherently wrong with following times and speculating on future performances either. I also think it is ok for parents to try to make sure their kids are giving their best effort, even if that requires not saying "great job" every time. For parents that want to blame or challenge coaching decisions, that is a little bit trickier. It is rarely helpful to a program midseason and parents need to allow coaches to coach. A knowledgeable parent, though, I think should have a voice with the coach at times as the parent knows much more about the swimmer's academics, health, and general well-being.

[preeder61]

Waterdad: Perhaps this speculation is fun and interesting to some and that is all there is too a message board like Yappi. There is money waged, no scholarships decided. Just talk and predictions and contradictions.

[WATERDAD]

Sorry new to this and I guess I don't totally understand. It is just that in this and other "threads" I have read things sometimes seem to get a bit out of hand, in my opinion. I guess if this is fun for everyone, no harm no foul. But a few seem to take it a bit to far from what I've seen and this puts unrealistic pressure on the boys. As we go down the stretch I have noticed more complaints in the bleachers and some coaches appear to be feeling it also. But then again maybe I'm overly sensitive and all this is normal. Was not trying to ruffle any feathers just make some observations and figure it all out. Thanks for the feedback.

[aquacard]

200 medley relay: UA 1:40.03. SC 1:41.63, SC-B 1:42.03
200 free: Long (UA) 1:47.01. Culter (UA) 1:48.42, Krumpelman (SC) 1:50.98
200 IM: Reardon (UA) 2:00.26. Rabe (UA) 2:01.74, McKinley (SC) 2:04.74
50 free: Willi (SC) 22.96. Rabe (UA) 23.06, Polter (SC) 23.15
1M diving: Calhoun (UA) 139.65. SC no divers
100 butterfly: Jelen (UA) 54.05. Willi (SC) 54.23, Chin (UA) 55.78
100 free: Rabe (UA) 49.04. Neri (UA) 49.46, Kocher (SC) 50.90
500 free: Long (UA) 4:53.0. Cutler (UA) 4:56.82, Jack (SC) 5:03.78
200 free relay: UA 1:30.85. (SC) 1:31.48
100 back: Neri (UA) 54.07. Trace (UA) 55.56, Kocher (SC) 55.89
100 breast: Rabe (UA) 1:02.72. Reardon (UA) 1:03.76, D'Angelo (SC) 1:04.80
400 free relay: UA 3:22.54. UA-B 3:25.87, SC 3:28.45

Thanks preeder. My memory is that the 4-6 times were generally pretty close to the 3rd place time. There also was little to no fall off from those times and the top time in the JV heat. Point being that both teams showed some impressive depth and significant improvement by their lower tier swimmers since the beginning of the season. Can't wait to see where things end up at the taper meets.

Waterdad: Your concern is understandable and legitimate in some instances. Part of the fun of high school swimming is to see the improvement and progression of the swimmers during the season. Hopefully no one in their posts is trying to create undue pressure on the swimmers or undermine coaches. While the occasional mean spirited post is made, usually others are quick to scold when that happens. As preeder points out the speculation generally is fun and interesting to those who follow the sport.

[preeder61]

One thing that may stick out from these results is the possible District gap between UA and all the other teams, SC included. I might even ponder the possibility that second place in the Central District might be up for grabs? UA might not even fully taper for Districts and leave it all for the State Tournament?

What say you rjones, visionary of all things Golden Bear related?

[thedutchman]

200 Free: 1:45 low
200 IM: 1:59 mid
50 Free: 21 high
Fly: 52 high
100 Free: 48 low
500 Free: 4:45 low
Back: 54 low
Breast: 1:00 mid

With rare exception swim that time and you qualify for the D1 state meet.

[scwat]

I think talk of SC finishing below second is crazy-talk. In every event where they are not represented in the top ten times in district, they essentially have three or four guys right below the cutoff. They should have nearly everyone score at districts, although they may not take the top one or two spots. Also the SC-UA meet was not a district lineup for SC and they were missing at least a couple district scorers from last season, who didn't swim. Their relays have not been set and will certainly improve as they begin swimming their fastest swimmers together. I just don't see another team with nearly enough depth to compete for a top two spot. As far as UA tapering for states, for more than a handful of their swimmers, I think that would also be a mistake. Many will be relying on at-large bids after districts. If UA cannot compete for a state title, it would make the most sense to win districts as a team and get as many swimmers to state as possible in order to garner experience. They have a history of underestimating St Charles and even though it does not look they are in jeopardy of losing the district meet this year, if they do it again by tapering for states, it could come back to bite them.

[preeder61]

I think talk of SC finishing below second is crazy-talk. They have a history of underestimating St Charles and even though it does not look they are in jeopardy of losing the district meet this year, if they do it again by tapering for states, it could come back to bite them.

I just like shaking it up when it concerns UA and SC. Curious, who scored at districts last year from SC but did not swim in the UA dual meet. Looked to me like all were represented.

[aquacard]

Grodesky didn't swim, don't know that anyone else was missing.

[rjones]

One thing that may stick out from these results is the possible District gap between UA and all the other teams, SC included. I might even ponder the possibility that second place in the Central District might be up for grabs? UA might not even fully taper for Districts and leave it all for the State Tournament?

What say you rjones, visionary of all things Golden Bear related?

Finally you're seeing the light preeder. It's like the old days when UA swam the district meet in their drag suits. The taper will be for the state meet. The district is already won, despite the SC fans' wishful thinking.

[preeder61]

Finally you're seeing the light preeder. It's like the old days when UA swam the district meet in their drag suits. The taper will be for the state meet. The district is already won, despite the SC fans' wishful thinking.

The old days were when Worthington was one high school and the rivalry was between UA and Worthington!

[swimfan]

It's like the old days when UA swam the district meet in their drag suits.

They use to do that under Chapman. It always seemed demeaning to the opposing swimmers. Glad the new rules eliminate teams being able to do that.

[thedutchman]

They use to do that under Chapman. It always seemed demeaning to the opposing swimmers. Glad the new rules eliminate teams being able to do that.

They use to do it when they could because no one else in the Central District could compete with them. That hasn't been the case since 2005. Even if legal no team would swim the district in drag suits in this day and age. Everyone will be suited up and either fully or nearly fully tapered including UA.

The difficult thing for deBear is that swimmers don't all taper the same, and much of it is mental. A coach even a very good coach like deBear may need a taper or two to fine tune and get it right for the individual swimmer. He also needs to gain the swimmer's trust that he knows what is best for the swimmer. That can make a huge difference in the taper. It will be interesting to see how things go for UA. As much as SC may wish, the talent at UA is just too great for them to overcome even with a strong taper and a poor one by UA. And as dominant as UA will be, they may not score all their swimmers at the District as SC has in the past. There are alot of quality swimmers in the Central District outside of UA & SC.

At the state level next year is probably UA's best opportunity to challenge for the title. This year a third place finish would be excellent. Much may depend on whether Cville blows their taper as they have in the past. For SC a top 5 finish would be remarkable. They have good swimmers, but just don't have the marquee swimmers of the recent past. Perhaps their rise in water polo has impacted on their swimming improvement. The next couple weeks should give some indication for both teams as SC is at the Northeast Classic this weekend and then swims Cville next week. UA swims Cville next weekend.

[rjones]

They use to do that under Chapman. It always seemed demeaning to the opposing swimmers. Glad the new rules eliminate teams being able to do that.

How's it demeaning to taper your swimmers for only the biggest meet? That's all they were doing. Their not at fault because their talent level was so high that they could win without a taper and fast suit.

And dutchman...don't worry, UA will hit the taper this year and finish no lower than third at the state meet...higher if things break right. They will finish off Centerville Saturday. SC will be lucky to place in the top 10 at the state meet. They won't qualify more than 5 swimmers - including relays.

[aquacard]

And dutchman...don't worry, UA will hit the taper this year and finish no lower than third at the state meet...higher if things break right. They will finish off Centerville Saturday. SC will be lucky to place in the top 10 at the state meet. They won't qualify more than 5 swimmers - including relays.

Break right, like X or StF don’t show? Nice to see you back rjones. Your posts...although frequently incorrect...are always entertaining. Good luck with Centerville.

[ohiopolofan]

Finally you're seeing the light preeder. It's like the old days when UA swam the district meet in their drag suits. The taper will be for the state meet. The district is already won, despite the SC fans' wishful thinking.
Ralph, you are an embarrassment to all Upper Arlngton fans. It's hard enough being a UA swimmer without you painting a bulls eye on each swimmers back.

[aquacard]

And dutchman...don't worry, UA will hit the taper this year and finish no lower than third at the state meet...higher if things break right. They will finish off Centerville Saturday.

UA 84, Cville 101. Nice call Mr. Jones. That's what I call finishing them off. Wonder if the rest of your prediction is as accurate.

[preeder61]

UA 84, Cville 101. Nice call Mr. Jones. That's what I call finishing them off. Wonder if the rest of your prediction is as accurate.

I believe that mr. jones is convinced that Centerville was rested and suited for the UA meet :)

This sounded like a very fast meet for both team. 1:45 200 free, 4:44 500. Surprised to see Centerville win both free relays and go 1,2,3 in the 500. Great for both teams to have a fast dual meet as the season winds down.

OCC next weekend should restore the old jones confidence as they dominate the conference, oh, except for a few events that shall remain unspecified.

[thedutchman]

Interesting,...Centerville beat St. Charles Friday by 12 points with virtually the same line up that they used against UA. Things may tighten for UA at the district.

[rjones]

I believe that mr. jones is convinced that Centerville was rested and suited for the UA meet :)

Not rested & suited, but, unlike the Bears, Centerville swam their state line up and insisted on diving which swung the meet to them. Diving won't save them at the state meet.

[jb123]

Centerville went 1-2-3 in diving, and by doing so outscored Ua 13-2 in that event.
http://centerville.usswim.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ua-vs-chs-results-2011.pdf
They won the meet by 17, so Centerville also won the swim portion of the meet.

How was Ua's lineup different from their States lineup? From what i saw they swam their best lineup and got beat by a better team.

[scwat]

Diving won't save them at the state meet.

Centerville has one, possibly two divers that could score at states. Diving is considered a swimming event in high school. Implying that Centerville "insisted" on diving is a little misleading. It is kind of like saying Centerville insisted on swimming the butterfly. When diving is left out of a dual meet, it is more often related to the lack of facilities than it is to a coaches agreement to leave it out.

[GoinDistance]

UA has divers - I saw them mentioned in the UA-SC meet scores posted here. Why would Mr Jones expect them to not be part of the meet?

[WATERDAD]

Centerville swam their state line up and insisted on diving which swung the meet to them. Diving won't save them at the state meet.

I thought the idea was to put your best foot forward, so to speak. Is is possible rjones is saying that UA is hiding part of their line up? Or maybe he is saying UA has not swam their best athletes in their best events? Isn't the sport refered to as "Swimming & Diving" they are all part of the "TEAM"? If you read the other "Threads" the claim is Centerville usually rolls over at the "State Meet" due to how hard they have to work to get there out of the Southwest district.
I also wanted to mention that rjones claims that UA has never backed down and takes on all challengers as I recall the the quote "always has and always will!" In speaking with others who were around in the 70's that's not true sir!!!!!!!!! To hold on to a "Dual Meet" string of victories then their coach would avoid swimming dual meets against the likes of St. X and would claim Tri-Meet victories as two wins (note a tri-meet is not the same as a double-dual). Please you are really starting to look foolish sir.

[Makes Girls Go Bad]

How's it demeaning to taper your swimmers for only the biggest meet? That's all they were doing. Their not at fault because their talent level was so high that they could win without a taper and fast suit.

And dutchman...don't worry, UA will hit the taper this year and finish no lower than third at the state meet...higher if things break right. They will finish off Centerville Saturday. SC will be lucky to place in the top 10 at the state meet. They won't qualify more than 5 swimmers - including relays.

So you think that "if things break right" UA will conceivably beat St. X or Toledo in your opinion rjones?

[thedutchman]

The claim that back in the 70s UA avoided dual meets because their coach was seeking to preserve a string of victories seems unlikely based on who the coach was back then and the fact that in the 70s UA swam against all the elite teams in the state...including St. X. More likely, some teams may have avoided UA who was usually the number 2 team in the state during that decade. (They finished second 8 or 9 times.) Waterdad, someone has given you bad information.

[preeder61]

The claim that back in the 70s UA avoided dual meets because their coach was seeking to preserve a string of victories seems unlikely based on who the coach was back then and the fact that in the 70s UA swam against all the elite teams in the state.

UA used to chant "Dominate Dominate" walking down the deck before dual meets in the 70's (I was one of the swimmers who got dominated, so it stuck with me) Todd Grant is still on deck as an Assistant Coach. There were some fantastic swimmers then, some still on the record board, like Dale Hudson, Mark DeVore, Bill Palmer. When Worthington was one school, it was quite a rivalry. de Bear has mentioned getting Thomas Worthington back on the dual meet schedule, since we are in the same conference. TW would not be competitive as a team, but it would be a meet with a lot of history. Not to mention that de Bear swam for Worthington under Jim Callahan.

[aquacard]

If memory serves me right; Grant was head coach throughout the 70s. I believe he stepped down on the boys side when the girls team began around 1980. Anyway, preeder's right, the rivalry was UA v. Worthington in the 70s, 80s, & 90s. Actually there were some close district meets that UA won in the early 80s and of course Worthington finally beat them in the early 90s. Worthington likely would have dominated in the 90s, but Kilbourne opened splitting the team and the talent. Still Thomas won again in 96 or 97. The new high schools in Worthington, Westerville & Dublin have enabled UA to continue to dominate until recently...although they certainly have had strong teams throughout. And the rise of St. Charles is not a result of the demise of UA. UA has been as strong as ever during the last 5 years. SC has just been stronger. Anyway, UA has a magnificent history and judging by their performance this year has a bright future. They have won the state 3 or 4 times and they have been runner up another 10 to 15 times. But for X, UA would be the dominant team in boy's swimming, like they are on the girl's side.

[scwat]

Interesting stuff for those of us who did not grow up in Columbus. Of course it is obvious that UA has been very good in swimming for a long time when you see the list of District titles. I did not know, however, that Worthington was at times a close rival. Also, I do not think you could get away with a "Dominate" chant today. It seems in poor taste, honestly. Also interesting how the growth in Worthington led to a high school split and broke the rivalry. I think sports are more interesting when one there is a legitimate challenger in the field. St Charles has been one for UA for several years now. I think it is not a bad thing that they have taught Arlington a little bit about how to lose. At least some of the Arlington kids seem a little humbler now (just impression). Also interesting that when St Charles won the state championship in 08, the principle of the school gave a lot of the credit to a person who donated the bulk of the money to build their pool. One event like that can make a big difference in the local sport.

[rjones]

District meet is coming and guess what the Bears will do...."Dominate, Dominate!"

[preeder61]

Interesting results from OCCs, UA only won two individual events. Now you (mr.jones) can say that they might not have been in their best events for the conference championships, but some of the guys were in their District events and are seeing competition that was unexpected. Kilbourne's Callahan going 1:46.0 and surprising Long and Neri. Martin from Coffman wins the fly, Gill from Davidson wins the breast. UA might not have taken those, even with their best guys. I think that Districts will surprise our UA faithful.

[rjones]

Premise:
I think that Districts will surprise our UA faithful.
Response:
District meet is coming and guess what the Bears will do...."Dominate, Dominate!"

[ohiopolofan]

Premise:

Response:

While I know this is all supposed to be anonymous, I can't help but wonder if you would spout off and chest pound like you do if people knew who you were? It is easy for you to hide behind the anonymity. I bet if you had to disclose your name and let people know who you are your rantings would subside. What do you have to lose being rjones? Mr Anonymous, no one knows who you are so you can spew and boast all you want. Just food for thought.

[aquacard]

polofan: There are those who post to boast and irritate. And then there are those who post to share information, insight and intelligently discuss the sport and the season. Ignore the first and embrace the second.

[scwat]

Speaking of domination, St Charles won every single event and broke six meet records at UA's invitational, historically for JV swimmers today. Nice to see some kids who do not get a lot of recognition with some great swims and some great times that would score them points at Districts. Watching this meet today and the excitement generated, makes me think that there really should be an official Junior Varsity Championship meet in the Central District. It would be a great ending for those swimmers who are not on their schools Sectional team or perhaps in only one event at sectionals. Many of them could take advantage of the taper season to record some personal bests and end the season on a high note. Any thoughts?

[preeder61]

Speaking of domination, St Charles won every single event and broke six meet records at UA's invitational, historically for JV swimmers today. Nice to see some kids who do not get a lot of recognition with some great swims and some great times that would score them points at Districts. Watching this meet today and the excitement generated, makes me think that there really should be an official Junior Varsity Championship meet in the Central District. It would be a great ending for those swimmers who are not on their schools Sectional team or perhaps in only one event at sectionals. Many of them could take advantage of the taper season to record some personal bests and end the season on a high note. Any thoughts?

In line with my comment on the other thread, if this is a JV meet, there needs to be some standards, upper time cuts, no upper classmen. Not just overflow swimmers from huge teams coming in and beating freshman. Seniors have no place at a meet like this. I am sorry to get sticky on this, but some of the SC swimmers posting district scoring times should not have been there. If they want to post season ending best times , either make the SC Sectional team or wait for the senior meet. There should not even be a team score recorded without some standards.

I think a JV meet is great idea, for JV swimmers.

[double down]

Paul, did rjones hijack your account?

The UA meet is not a "JV" meet. It is labeled the "Upper Arlington Invitational Championship." Please read through the meet info, then respond with your explanation as to why hard-working high school swimmers who are unable to compete at the Sectional Champs should be excluded from this meet.

Your post indicates that a swimmer's graduation year is more important than whether or not he is fast enough to represent his team at Sectionals. Is that really what you're arguing? How arbitrary. Did you really indicate that these swimmers shouldn't be allowed to compete in a high school championship meet? By your logic, anyone not fast enough to compete at Sectionals needs to quit high school swimming and wait for the Senior Champs.

It sounds like you don't want UA or SC to be allowed to compete at the UA Invite. That's a great way to promote high school swimming, Paul. Well done!

[RustySavage]

If you take a good look at the results, most of the wins from SC were by Freshmen or Sophomores. Two individual events were won by SC Seniors, one by a Junior, one by a Sophomore and FOUR by Freshmen. If you glance down the results list, other schools who participated had a mix of class levels in their squads as well. To single out SC as loading their JV team with Seniors and Juniors is absurd. Instead, SC should be applauded with a very successful taper, team cohesiveness, upperclassmen mentoring, and an exciting up-and-coming young team.

It's sad that these victories are questioned because these young men trained very hard for the incredible time drops they accomplished today -- whether this was the last meet of their high school career or their first high school championship.

[scwat]

Junior varsity is defined not by class rank but by not being on the varsity squad. That in itself is the standard. It is arbitrary only in that it differs from team to team. It's is true that big teams have better JV squads and may have seniors, but its also true that big teams have better varsity squads.

Freshman, Sophomores, and Juniors on second tier or mediocre teams have the advantage that they get to go to Sectionals even if they are not that good. Shouldn't we set a standard for these average swimmers so that we can eliminate them from post-season competition as well. It would save all of the fans from having to wait through multiple heats at sectionals and districts in order to get to the real races. Honestly, Preeder, I think you are way off base on this one.

[preeder61]

I may be off base, but I just stated the way I feel about it. I think the intent of the meet was a JV meet and in my mind, JV is an underclassmen's team. Not unlike a "B" meet in USA or the JV meet that Worthington sponsored opposite the Ned Reeb's time standards, I am simply of the opinion, that this meet has value if there are some standards. Not taking anything away from the quality swims, and I can't fairly be questioned about not promoting the sport of swimming, I don't like touting of SC's prowess in a meet with open events.

[bhs warrior]

I may be off base, but I just stated the way I feel about it. I think the intent of the meet was a JV meet and in my mind, JV is an underclassmen's team. Not unlike a "B" meet in USA or the JV meet that Worthington sponsored opposite the Ned Reeb's time standards, I am simply of the opinion, that this meet has value if there are some standards. Not taking anything away from the quality swims, and I can't fairly be questioned about not promoting the sport of swimming, I don't like touting of SC's prowess in a meet with open events.

WOW, preeder61 most of the time i find your posts spot on, you need to look at seed times and then comment on who should have been at this meet or not. hard work payed off for these swimmers. You may need to say you are sorry to the Young Men oF SC. Maybe next year worthington can show us all how it should be done.

[scwat]

The main point of my original post was not really to boast about SC's prowess, but more to point out the value of a meet for swimmers that won't be seen at Sectionals. As an SC supporter, I would admit to being proud of their performance at UA Saturday and if a little boasting came through it was probably in response to the criticism their team has gotten on this forum this season. I do suspect from an outside perspective that the UA meet may be perceived negatively by other teams as a St Charles boys and UA (and Watterson) girls showcase, since they have had the most entries and the most success at this meet in recent years. Perhaps this is also a reason the meet was not well attended this year. I would defend St Charles here though from two perspectives. They bring a lot of energy to this meet and most of that energy is from the varsity swimmers supporting their teammates that they have trained with all year. I don't see anything wrong with that. Also, the SC swimmers in the meet, regardless of grade, if given their choice would probably all rather be swimming in Sectionals, so in that regard it is a bit of a consolation meet for them.

Towards the bigger point, I would like to see a meet specifically for swimmers not making the Central Ohio Sectional Meets presented as a championship for Junior Varsity swimmers. I would agree with Preeder that there does not seem to be a uniform definition of JV swimming which may be a problem in trying to define an end-of-season JV meet. It seems a little bit easier to define a non-qualifier meet opposite Ned Reeb and define who is eligible (I assume that meet was for swimmers who did not make the Ned Reeb qualifying time, but just out of curiosity did that meet also not allow senior swimmers?).

For an end of season meeet, though, it is not cut and dried. Swimmers on larger teams may have faster times than varsity swimmers on other smaller teams. Seniors on large teams may work hard for four years and still have swimmers ahead of them on varsity. This is why I do not think it matters what grade the swimmers are in and frankly, seniors usually kick freshmans' butts in almost any kind of race, including at the varsity level. What makes that fair in my mind is that freshman will one day be seniors and have an opportunity to do the same thing to their underclassmen.


Finally, for the record, Preeder, although I do not know you personally, I respect your opinion and do not question your contribution and the contribution of your family to the sport of swimming and diving in Columbus. I just thought you were a bit hard on some senior swimmers, some of whom I do know.

[preeder61]

You are right, I should have looked at seed times and not just results to form an opinion, for that I do apologize to the swimmers for the brashness of my position. I hope that some of these young men and woman swam the lights out and posted PRs each event.

I do think that Worthington did it right this year and will again next, Hosting two JV meets for swimmers not making the Ned Reeb cuts in December and not making the Northeast Classic cuts in January.

So what happens to a swimmer who swims great at this meet (22.9 relay split for example) and propels themselves onto the varsity sectional team, replacing a kid who has not had the benefit of a shave and taper. Just curious, not being a smart -----. That does cause a dilemma.

[aquacard]

Just to give some history the UA Invitational started in 2005. Originally it was billed as a JV Championship Meet. Since the name has been changed to the UA Invitational - presumably in hopes of attracting more teams. UA girls and SC boys have dominated the meet. On both sides the swimmers from UA & SC have been the lower tier of their teams. (This year UA girls team is much smaller so some of their girls will swim in the sectional.) On the SC side typically none of their swimmers will swim on the sectional team. Alumns of the meet for SC include numerous boys who in the following years qualified for the state meet and even one who became a state champion. Unfortunately, the number of teams attending was down this year. Hopefully that will change in future years. The rules for the meet are that swimmers must have a slower time than the cut time for each event, unless they will not swim in the sectional meet. This is an ideal meet for large teams who have swimmers who they cannot fit onto their sectional roster. It also is a great meet for swimmers who will end their season the next week at the sectional. The UA folks run a first class meet. Swimming lovers should attend this meet because the time drops for the tapered kids are fantastic. UA's varsity (boys & girls) & SC's varsity always attend the meet as spectators and really add to the environment. After the meet they always run time trials. The noise level at this meet matches any of the year end championship meets. If you have never been to the meet preeder, go next year. It may change your view about it.

[bhs warrior]

You are right, I should have looked at seed times and not just results to form an opinion, for that I do apologize to the swimmers for the brashness of my position. I hope that some of these young men and woman swam the lights out and posted PRs each event.

I do think that Worthington did it right this year and will again next, Hosting two JV meets for swimmers not making the Ned Reeb cuts in December and not making the Northeast Classic cuts in January.

So what happens to a swimmer who swims great at this meet (22.9 relay split for example) and propels themselves onto the varsity sectional team, replacing a kid who has not had the benefit of a shave and taper. Just curious, not being a smart -----. That does cause a dilemma.

At SC he cheers from the stands.

[aquacard]

So what happens to a swimmer who swims great at this meet (22.9 relay split for example) and propels themselves onto the varsity sectional team, replacing a kid who has not had the benefit of a shave and taper. Just curious, not being a smart -----. That does cause a dilemma.

No dilemma at St Charles because the sectional team is set in advance of the UA Invite. In the history of the meet, only 1 time has an SC swimmer's time at the UA Invite topped the tapered time of a swimmer in the district. So Bhs warrior is right, at SC they cheer from the stand.

By the way, for those who have declared SC dead, their JV performance yesterday should serve as a warning that their sectional team will taper very, very well which means they will move up alot from their sectional seed times. Still although they will make it closer with UA then most expect, I don't see them beating UA at the district.

[thedutchman]

In line with my comment on the other thread, if this is a JV meet, there needs to be some standards, upper time cuts, no upper classmen. Not just overflow swimmers from huge teams coming in and beating freshman. Seniors have no place at a meet like this. I am sorry to get sticky on this, but some of the SC swimmers posting district scoring times should not have been there. If they want to post season ending best times , either make the SC Sectional team or wait for the senior meet. There should not even be a team score recorded without some standards.

I think a JV meet is great idea, for JV swimmers.

Clearly your definition of a JV swimmer differs from others. Seniors swam in not only the UA Invitational this weekend, but the W.R. Timken Jr. Junior Varsity Championships in Canton (Seniors in the 50 free: Boys - 14 of 100 / Girls 25 of 159) and the Greater Western Ohio Conference Junior Varsity Swimming Championships in Centerville (Seniors in the 50 free: Boys - 7 of 34 / Girls 17 of 70). The other major JV meet is the Fred Cooper which is next week after the Southwest Sectionals. Entries come only after the district qualifiers have been named. But in past years Seniors swim in that meet as well. Doubtful that will change this year.

[Chlorine]

The swimmers at the UA invitational swam well across the board. SC had a strong meet of course, but UA, Grandview, Watterson and Central Crossing all showed nice drops in what will be many swimmers last meet of the year. It was my understanding that there are specific time standards that swimmers must be slower than unless they are not swimming at Sectionals, so by default I would call this a JV meet. The time trials at the end of the meet were very fun as well. I hope more teams will show up next year because that means the sport is growing for everyone.

[theoldfish]

There are only a couple teams in the central districts that have a team large enough to not send everyone to sectionals, max entries 4 per event and one relay. Swimming is not basketball where most schools have JV. Should a senior swim at sectionals and leave a faster sophmore, who could score top 16at districts, at home just to be fair? There is no such word when you are evaluated by the clock. If a senior's feelings are hurt because they did not swim sectionals and had to end their career at the UA invite, they will have more trouble later in life. I do not think that SC stacked this meet to put one to UA.

[aquacard]

The swimmers at the UA invitational swam well across the board. SC had a strong meet of course, but UA, Grandview, Watterson and Central Crossing all showed nice drops in what will be many swimmers last meet of the year. It was my understanding that there are specific time standards that swimmers must be slower than unless they are not swimming at Sectionals, so by default I would call this a JV meet. The time trials at the end of the meet were very fun as well. I hope more teams will show up next year because that means the sport is growing for everyone.

Agreed. There have been more teams in the past, don't know why the numbers were down this year. Weather cancelled the meet last year so that maybe why. I've always thought this meet was a great idea for teams who can't get all their swimmers into the sectional, and for swimmers who will likely finish their season at the sectional. I've never understood why more don't come. UA does a great job at running the meet. They announce the swimmers and this year the announcer was especially good, pointing out what the meet records were and encouraging the crowd to cheer on the swimmer who looked like they might break the record. And the announcer really whipped up the crowd during the time trials...it was too bad there weren't more swimmers. Nice job UA...keep up the good work.

[rjones]

UA beats SC 427 to 301 off psych sheets.

[preeder61]

UA beats SC 427 to 301 off psych sheets.

Well I guess it's done, why swim the meet at this point?

[GoinDistance]

I think UA has beat SC the last two sectionals. (and then come back the next week and lost at Districts) So no surprise UA is favored in the Sectional

[scwat]

Sectionals will again probably not be SC's focus. They will show up at Districts though and do their best to make it close. It would take an outstanding team effort to do that with UA's outstanding talent. Looking forward to an exciting few weeks.

[Chlorine]

Sectionals will again probably not be SC's focus. They will show up at Districts though and do their best to make it close. It would take an outstanding team effort to do that with UA's outstanding talent. Looking forward to an exciting few weeks.

If there is a less important or indicative piece of material than the Sectional pysch sheet, I would like to find it. Upon 1st read, the most interesting thing in the Central District is who is going where. Either way it will be much more interesting next week.

[preeder61]

Depietro doing the IM/500 combo will not help UA's cause any, being seeded first in both and Dolgov's IM race will be on and taking more UA points in breaststroke come districts. Both the 50 and 100 free will take UA points at Districts as well. Even relays are not a given, New Albany's relays are all competitive with UA. Can't wait.

[swimfan]

Even relays are not a given, New Albany's relays are all competitive with UA. Can't wait.

Not sure where those times came from for the New Albany relays. They are significantly faster than any that I've seen this year. In the medley I haven't seen them below 1:43 much less a 1:38.89...where and when did they do that? Same with the 200 & 400 -1:27.86 & 3:16.13 when at least in the times reported they have always been above 1:29 in the 200 & 3:20 in the 400. I'm not saying their not capable of the listed times, but I'm not certain they have done them yet this season. I'm not sure it makes a difference for the sectional, but I suspect if they beat those times at district it won't be by much. I see Thomas challenging New Albany in the free relays...but I think it will be for the 3rd automatic qualifier spot. Anyway, this is the best part of the season as it's always interesting to see who hits the taper and who doesn't.

[preeder61]

Not sure where those times came from for the New Albany relays. They are significantly faster than any that I've seen this year. In the medley I haven't seen them below 1:43 much less a 1:38.89...where and when did they do that? Same with the 200 & 400 -1:27.86 & 3:16.13 when at least in the times reported they have always been above 1:29 in the 200 & 3:20 in the 400. I'm not saying their not capable of the listed times, but I'm not certain they have done them yet this season. I'm not sure it makes a difference for the sectional, but I suspect if they beat those times at district it won't be by much. I see Thomas challenging New Albany in the free relays...but I think it will be for the 3rd automatic qualifier spot. Anyway, this is the best part of the season as it's always interesting to see who hits the taper and who doesn't.

I am not sure either, I was just reporting what I saw on the psych sheet. We sure hope to see Thomas challenging in both free relays, it all depends on who steps up. Thomas will not challenge UA, but it should be a race with St. Charles, New Albany and Olentangy Liberty for the 2,3,4 spots.

[rjones]

Well I guess it's done, why swim the meet at this point?

No, that's just how the meet scores off the psych sheet times. The final margin will likely be larger after the taper.

[preeder61]

No, that's just how the meet scores off the psych sheet times. The final margin will likely be larger after the taper.

Of course, UA will Dominate and get 1,2,3,4 in every event. Oh wait, except maybe the IM, Breast, 50/100/500/ and fly . . well, I guess the boys will just have to swim to Dominate, Ralph, old man!

[aquacard]

No, that's just how the meet scores off the psych sheet times. The final margin will likely be larger after the taper.

Actually, judging from the time drops by the SC boys at the UA Invite (and none of those boys are entered into the sectional), I'm betting the margin will narrow.

[rjones]

Actually, judging from the time drops by the SC boys at the UA Invite (and none of those boys are entered into the sectional), I'm betting the margin will narrow.

So the meet scores UA 427 SC 301 off the psych sheets & UA 471 SC 274 from the qualifying times. Seems like SC is tapering the wrong direction...don't you think?

[thedutchman]

Not necessarily. The purpose of the Sectional is to narrow the field for the district. All you're trying to do is move your swimmers on. St Charles qualified all their swimmers for the District Meet. So in that sense they did what they needed to do at the Sectional. The taper will likely come this week. Of course UA moved all their swimmer on as well...presumably without a taper.

[preeder61]

We debated this point heavily last week. So for some swimmers the only reason to swim Sectionals is to make it through to Districts, true? But let's say you take this attitude and you qualify 11th for Districts. You were unshaved or tapered, but now you are in heat two and not the fast heat. Maybe you can swim motivated to win your heat now shaved, but is this the best scenario?

My son did not want to wear a cap at Sectionals, so he would feel completely different at Districts fully shaved. My thought was to at least wear a cap and maintain your rankings to give yourself the best psychological set up with both a good seeding and a good taper. He did not wear a cap in the relays and their starts were ultra safe, but the times seeded them lower than preferred. Lots of psychology in these meets.

[aquacard]

Bottom line...except for an elite few, this week will see the complete effort regardless of philosophy. And by the way, some of the bottom of the UA team looked shaved and tapered. They were definately suited up. Don't look for much if any improvement from UA 3rd & 4th swimmers in the 50 & 100. None of the SC swimmers were suited, shaved or tapered. I would expect SC to outperform its projected score as most of their swimmers will move up in the standings.

[preeder61]

I would expect SC to outperform its projected score as most of their swimmers will move up in the standings.

Wouldn't this be expected out of most of the top 15 swimmers in every race? Every one of those top guys should swim faster rested and shaved, don't you think?

[scwat]

But let's say you take this attitude and you qualify 11th for Districts. You were unshaved or tapered, but now you are in heat two and not the fast heat. Maybe you can swim motivated to win your heat now shaved, but is this the best scenario?



I have to admit, I wonder about this as well. I think it could be tricky trying to beat many people in the last heat from position 11. Personally, I think it is possible to get a little fancy with the strategy and forget how to just race. For someone like your son, who has a chance to win his event, I agree with you that every psychological edge is important. Good luck to him Saturday.

[preeder61]

Personally, I think it is possible to get a little fancy with the strategy and forget how to just race. For someone like your son, who has a chance to win his event, I agree with you that every psychological edge is important. Good luck to him Saturday.

It is up to him and the rest of these men now just to race! This will be a fun meet.