View Full Version : Error Costs Moeller 2nd in District
worldsbestdiver
02-21-09, 08:24 AM
Moeller was on their way to an upset victory over Centerville in the district meet. An error on the part of the officials allowed two extra divers to continue on to finals. The Centerville diver moved from 18th place to 8th and scored points for Centerville. Only the top 16 were supposed to move to the finals. Had the Moeller diving coach protested instantly and alerted the officials of the error, the 17th and 18th place diver would have been dropped from the field and Moeller would have finished 2nd. the Moeller diving coach was busy coaching one of his club divers from Elder and did not file the appropriate protest
Damn, that really sucks for Moe. It's really unfortunate to have a diving coach who is only interested in his individuals and not his team. And now it cost thems second...
xbomberd08
02-21-09, 10:41 AM
How did such an obvious error happen? Wouldn't have everyone noticed that only 6 people were cut from the next round instead of the normal 8?
worldsbestdiver
02-21-09, 11:06 AM
Obvious error. Official Moeller coach was busy coaching his club diver from Elder. Protests must be filed within 30 minutes of meet close. He did not file a formal written protest.
ElksSWIM2010
02-21-09, 12:03 PM
too late now, nothing you can do about it other than complain
Amazin'
02-21-09, 03:19 PM
wow. thats sucks
Number1Spot77
02-21-09, 04:06 PM
centerville is a bunch of cheaters is what it sounds like to me... at least everyone really knows who is better..MOELLER!
thedutchman
02-22-09, 11:50 AM
Moeller was on their way to an upset victory over Centerville in the district meet. An error on the part of the officials allowed two extra divers to continue on to finals. The Centerville diver moved from 18th place to 8th and scored points for Centerville. Only the top 16 were supposed to move to the finals. Had the Moeller diving coach protested instantly and alerted the officials of the error, the 17th and 18th place diver would have been dropped from the field and Moeller would have finished 2nd. the Moeller diving coach was busy coaching one of his club divers from Elder and did not file the appropriate protest
centerville is a bunch of cheaters is what it sounds like to me... at least everyone really knows who is better..MOELLER!
That is unfortunate. But weren't there coaches from other teams who could have protested? Why is all the blame for not realizing the error on the Moeller coach? And how does this make Centerville "a bunch of cheaters"?
BackAgain122
02-22-09, 01:18 PM
why does it seam like moeller always are the ones who get screwed ? i really dont understand it but this is a terrible way for the seniors to go out knowing they came in second but have to settle for third because of administrative errors. that is terrible! is there any way you can write a formal complaint to the ohsaa ?
OhioSWIM002
02-22-09, 01:43 PM
its the meet who decides how many people to cut off and its not against the rules for them to change it but they did make a mistake but there is nothing anyone can do about it
so centerville beat them and get over it
worldsbestdiver
02-22-09, 02:17 PM
You are partially correct. The rulebook clearly mandates how many divers move on to the next round after three dives, five dives and eight dives. If the district makes an error and 30 minutes passes after the close of the meet, unless it is a violation of state policy, the error stands. Why didn't other coaches intervene? Nobody will get involved unless its their own diver or the error hurts their team. Usually the team hurt by the mistake is the one who needs to have the mistake corrected.
Number1Spot77
02-22-09, 02:30 PM
this is why swimming and diving should be separated. Moeller is clearly the better team when it comes to swimming and centerville is the better team at diving. Why should the swimmers feel the consequences of a Diver? I still think that moeller should still be allowed to be second now that the error was caught. What effect does it have except crowing the true second place team? Sure the centerville team wants to be second but do they really want to be second because they got lucky?...or a mistake?... Now they have to live with the fact in the back of their mind that moeller is honestly the better team and especially at swimming.
ElksSWIM2010
02-22-09, 02:56 PM
not really, all i remember is holding the runner up trophy and being happy ;) ...plus some of centervilles swimmers did not swim up to their potential like travis schiemans 100breast were he only scored 3 points and if he wasnt sick he would have scored very high and you wouldnt be having this discussion
plus at state all of centervilles swimmers will have 70s and at the meet only austin greogry and glaser garbrick did....
so we got 2nd tough luck too bad
ImPartial
02-22-09, 02:59 PM
There were probably only 3-4 dive coaches there. Dive coaches typically coach kids from many teams. The Centerville coach was probably the coach for Miamisburg, Northmont, Fairmont, Springboro, and Beavercreek. The "Moeller coach" was really the "Elder coach" that night since there were zero Moeller divers there. You can bet all the dive coaches knew the mistake was made, but why bother complain? Isn't it better to let them continue diving rather than sit them down after five dives (coaches' viewpoint, not mine)?
The coach that really matters is the Moeller head coach. Should he have been there to watch and make sure "Centerville doesn't cheat?" The head coach is the only one that cares about team points. The dive coach just wants to make sure ALL his divers get a chance to dive. Why would the dive coach care about team points? Hmm, maybe that is why none of the dive coaches from Miamisburg, LaSalle, Northmont, Fairmont, Loveland, Lakota, Anderson, Oak Hills, Springboro, and Moeller made a complaint during and after the competition.
ImPartial
02-22-09, 03:04 PM
not really, all i remember is holding the runner up trophy and being happy ;) ...plus some of centervilles swimmers did not swim up to their potential like travis schiemans 100breast were he only scored 3 points and if he wasnt sick he would have scored very high and you wouldnt be having this discussion
plus at state all of centervilles swimmers will have 70s and at the meet only austin greogry and glaser garbrick did....
so we got 2nd tough luck too bad
Nice! There are sore losers, gracious losers, gracious winners and sore winners. I doubt anything will ever change the score and the trophy will stay at Centerville forever (unless someone is so upset, they break in and take it). You can't do anything about the score, it is already OHSAA approved. But you can control how you react to the situation. Be gracious or be a jerk, show what you are made of.
Dr. Gonzo
02-22-09, 06:09 PM
Whatever, Centerville got 2nd, Moeller got 3rd, thats just how it is. Coach didn't catch the error, thats his fault.
Besides, I think Centerville is really the better team.
ElksSWIM2010
02-22-09, 07:21 PM
if schieman wasnt sick and placed higher than 14th.....
(freshman year he got 8th)
like he was supposed to and you know he was , we woudnt be having this conversation...also the state pre-ranking are without schieman scoring any breastroke points and you know he will
Number1Spot77
02-22-09, 08:29 PM
if schieman wasnt sick and placed higher than 14th.....
(freshman year he got 8th)
like he was supposed to and you know he was , we woudnt be having this conversation...also the state pre-ranking are without schieman scoring any breastroke points and you know he will
yeah well lets assume some other things like yeah if albers was 7'2 he would have won by thirty seconds, if kevin koenig wasnt sick then he would have gone a 20.1 in the fifty, if sanders was stronger that day he would have been 42.1 in the hundred.... you cant say "What Ifs"... it is how ready you are the day of the meet. Other people were sick too and other people didnt preform how they wanted. Also Blue 70s are going to be illegal so any time in it isnt legit in my eyes.
stxbomber999
02-22-09, 08:46 PM
yeah well lets assume some other things like yeah if albers was 7'2 he would have won by thirty seconds, if kevin koenig wasnt sick then he would have gone a 20.1 in the fifty, if sanders was stronger that day he would have been 42.1 in the hundred.... you cant say "What Ifs"... it is how ready you are the day of the meet. Other people were sick too and other people didnt preform how they wanted. Also Blue 70s are going to be illegal so any time in it isnt legit in my eyes.
How do you know blue 70s are going to be illegal, and if you are considering those times to be legit, than there goes just about all of moellers times. I think albers was the only one not wearing a 70.
Number1Spot77
02-22-09, 08:57 PM
How do you know blue 70s are going to be illegal, and if you are considering those times to be legit, than there goes just about all of moellers times. I think albers was the only one not wearing a 70.
Sanders and Schwab were the only ones.. And i know they are not legal because multiple coaches and officials who have officiated on national level meets have told me that they provide way too much buoyancy and becuase they are not yet used enough at major international meets Fifa has not looked at them. Soon they will and ban them. Definitely by next year no doubt. Also the other proof is that all times in that suit have been ridiculous... but if that isnt enough my previous statement is.
I don't think you give the swimmers inside the 70 enough credit. I can't remember who said it, but when asked about the Lazer, back when it was the fastest suit on the market, this swimmer said that the suit sucks because he threw it in the pool and it didn't move. The 70 is an aid but is no replacement for good training.
Number1Spot77
02-22-09, 09:11 PM
when it gives you .5 seconds for every 50 i think that helps a lot... sure the swimmers have trained hard all year and they are good but a 1.39 in the 2 free in a blue 70 is really a 1.41... it just gives you way too much buoyancy.
when it gives you .5 seconds for every 50 i think that helps a lot... sure the swimmers have trained hard all year and they are good but a 1.39 in the 2 free in a blue 70 is really a 1.41... it just gives you way too much buoyancy.
Though you claim you give credit to the training you are crediting all time drop to the suit. Swimmers are finally rested, but the suit does not take off .5 seconds per 50. If there is a published study stating this fact, I would love to see it, but I think the suits are more of a psychological boost anyway. .75 seconds for a whole 200, yeah maybe. But .5 per 50 is a bit overblown.
Number1Spot77
02-22-09, 09:31 PM
Though you claim you give credit to the training you are crediting all time drop to the suit. Swimmers are finally rested, but the suit does not take off .5 seconds per 50. If there is a published study stating this fact, I would love to see it, but I think the suits are more of a psychological boost anyway. .75 seconds for a whole 200, yeah maybe. But .5 per 50 is a bit overblown.
i was saying they worked hard to go a 1.41 while the suit gives them the other two. i guarantee you that in less than one year it will be banned. Ask any highly qualified swimming official and they will personally tell you.
stxbomber999
02-22-09, 10:22 PM
Well its not banned this year so i guess we just have to live with it
worldsbestdiver
02-22-09, 11:02 PM
All of this misses the point. We are not talking about sick swimmers, injured swimmers or swimmers making mistakes. This is all about the diving coach at Moeller not doing his job and Moeller finishing second and an error on the part of the officials moving them to third. This is not poor performance or high tech suits. Had the Moeller coach simply done his job reporting an outrageous error, Moe would have finished where they ACTUALLY finished. The Moeller swimmers and divers did their job, finished second and the diving coach allowed a paperwork error to get past him. Sad situation.
Amazin'
02-22-09, 11:15 PM
Are you sure he was there guys? Cause Moeller didn't have a diver there...
worldsbestdiver
02-23-09, 01:27 AM
He was there. Even though he was coaching his club divers, this error was so outrageous, he should have picked it up right now and protected the school he was actually affiliated with. He was not the Elder coach, he is the Moeller coach and needed to look out for Moellers best interest. Assuming he was not paying attention, or did not know the rules, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". You expect the football coach to know the rules, and the the basketball coach,and the swim coach. Is THE DIVING COACH ALLOWED TO PLEAD IGNORANCE?
thedutchman
02-23-09, 08:14 AM
I still don't understand why this all falls on the Moeller diving coach? Other coaches had divers in the meet and their diver may have been effected by the mistake. Why didn't they catch it or protest? Diving happened a day or so before the meet, so the Moeller diving coach could not have known that it would effect the outcome. The mistake happened, that's unfortunate, but to blame all this on the Moeller diving coach seems a bit harsh.
i was saying they worked hard to go a 1.41 while the suit gives them the other two. i guarantee you that in less than one year it will be banned. Ask any highly qualified swimming official and they will personally tell you.
On February 20th Fina had a meeting with the swimwear manufacturers dealing with the controversies with the technical suits. This is what Fina has decided in reaction to the new suits...
FINA, represented by its Executive and Technical Swimming Commission, Legal, Coaches and Athletes Commissions’ representatives, held today a meeting in Lausanne (SUI) with representatives of 16 swimwear manufacturers in order to examine amendments of the current ‘FINA Requirements for Swimwear Approval’.
Based on FINA's proposals and contributions discussed at the meeting, the FINA Bureau at its meeting on March 12-14, 2009 in Dubai (UAE) will consider amendments which include:
• DESIGN: The swimsuit shall not cover the neck and shall not extend past the shoulders nor past the ankles;
• MATERIAL:
o The material used shall have a maximum thickness of 1mm;
o When used, the material shall follow the body shape;
o The application of different materials shall not create air trapping effects;
• BUOYANCY: The swimsuit shall not have a buoyancy effect of more than 1 Newton (100gr);
• CONSTRUCTION: Any system providing external stimulation or influence of any form (e.g. pain reduction, chemical/medical substance release, electro-stimulation) is prohibited;
• CUSTOMISATION: All swimsuits of an approved model must be constructed in an identical fashion with no variation/modification for individual swimmers from the samples submitted for approval;
• USE: The swimmer can only wear one swimsuit at a time;
• CONTROL: FINA will establish its own independent control/testing programme. Scientific testing will be conducted by a team led by Prof. Jan-Anders Manson, from the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and Laboratory of Polymer and Composite Technology;
• APPROVAL: Swimwear manufacturers will be able to make submissions for approval of swimsuits until March 31, 2009.
In a further step, rules applicable from January 1, 2010 will also be examined by the Bureau.
One of the main aspects to be considered is the limitation of the use of non-permeable material.
“FINA has studied this matter very carefully, and together with all interested parties and the scientific expertise of EPFL, we have reached the best possible result.
"With these amendments, FINA shows that it continues to monitor the evolution of the sport’s equipment with the main objective of keeping the integrity of sport. While we need to remain open to evolution, the most important factors must be the athletes’ preparation and physical condition on achieving their performances”, considered FINA President Mustapha Larfaoui
That's from FINA.
This is from the Blue 70 people
Hi all, Back form Switzerland, and thought I would throw an answer or two in for you.
the blueseventy compostie material DRST is not neoprene (just to clarify this for all) and the total thickness of the material is 0.3mm, well below the legal limit proposed of 1.0mm.
Having been a part of the process and been in attendance in Lausanne yesterday I can confirm on behalf of blueseventy that we and the other brands are delighted with the outcome and we now have (Subject to Dubai meeting ratification) a set of rules that we can work to use to define our on going technologies.
Our suit IS Legal, always HAS been legal and WILL continue to be legal. This we are of course not too suprised, as we have always maintained a postion of working within the rules of FINA.
Any questions, then please do drop me a message.
Deano
blueseventy Marketing Director.
Here's an article from the NCAA admitting the new suits have a pretty bif effect on the times
http://collegeswimming.com/news/2009/feb/19/cap-relief/
Sorry for the long post, just wanted to give a little more info on these suits.
BackAgain122
02-23-09, 10:01 AM
here is a question any other year Moeller has never had a diver so what would happen if we didn't even have a coach there to protest? we have never had any divers at districts in years past so what are we spoused to do ? if there isnt even a coach there?
Fly4Fun
02-23-09, 10:17 AM
here is a question any other year Moeller has never had a diver so what would happen if we didn't even have a coach there to protest? we have never had any divers at districts in years past so what are we spoused to do ? if there isnt even a coach there?
I guess in an ideal world you would hope people's sense of integrity and sportsmanship would kick in.
And yes, it still does exist. I forget the names of the athletes involved, but during the Men's 200M at the Olympics this past year a runner was disqualified (2nd place I believe) for stepping on the line during the straight away (so there was no advantage) and he didn't impede the path of any other runner. The guy who wound up with the medal as a result of this disqualification later gave the medal to the disqualified runner saying everyone knew he truly deserved it. He didn't feel right about keeping something someone else actually won and "lost" on a technicality.
After some looking here is a short article on the situation.
Shawn Crawford was the "silver medalist" after actually finishing 4th and he gave his medal to Churandy Martina who actually finished 2nd.
http://current.com/items/89773454/crawford_gives_up_medal.htm
worldsbestdiver
02-23-09, 11:39 AM
I still don't understand why this all falls on the Moeller diving coach? Other coaches had divers in the meet and their diver may have been effected by the mistake. Why didn't they catch it or protest? Diving happened a day or so before the meet, so the Moeller diving coach could not have known that it would effect the outcome. The mistake happened, that's unfortunate, but to blame all this on the Moeller diving coach seems a bit harsh.
If you think about it, who cares about Moeller except Moeller. It falls on Moeller because it affects them. They were contenders. He should have been looking out for his team. When you are a contender, you have a big target on your back and everyone is out to step on you. Even though he could not have possibly known the outcome of the meet, you never allow anyone to take something away from you that belongs to you. Rule number one of competitive sports: Never give away your competitive advantage! The Moeller diving coach simply allowed his team to have their rightfull place taken away through sloppy paperwork. A novice or negligent coaching error. Either way, the results speak for themselves.
xswimmer100
02-23-09, 11:52 AM
If you think about it, who cares about Moeller except Moeller. It falls on Moeller because it affects them. They were contenders. He should have been looking out for his team. When you are a contender, you have a big target on your back and everyone is out to step on you. Even though he could not have possibly known the outcome of the meet, you never allow anyone to take something away from you that belongs to you. Rule number one of competitive sports: Never give away your competitive advantage! The Moeller diving coach simply allowed his team to have their rightfull place taken away through sloppy paperwork. A novice or negligent coaching error. Either way, the results speak for themselves.
everybody should care about moeller. they are a great team that was robbed at districts. for you to say that nobody cares except for moeller people is ridiculous. leave the swimming talk for people who are actually serious and interested in the welfare of the sport. if centerville had been robbed of second place over this diving mistake, they would be just as upset. any team would be upset, rightfully, if an error should cost them the honor of finishing runner up in the district meet. besides, at the SW classic, moeller completely dominated centerville. in the classic, there is no D1 or D2 and moeller whooped centerville by 68 points. we all know what moeller is capable of.
stxbomber999
02-23-09, 12:41 PM
everybody should care about moeller. they are a great team that was robbed at districts. for you to say that nobody cares except for moeller people is ridiculous. leave the swimming talk for people who are actually serious and interested in the welfare of the sport. if centerville had been robbed of second place over this diving mistake, they would be just as upset. any team would be upset, rightfully, if an error should cost them the honor of finishing runner up in the district meet. besides, at the SW classic, moeller completely dominated centerville. in the classic, there is no D1 or D2 and moeller whooped centerville by 68 points. we all know what moeller is capable of.
Well why sohuld everyone care about moeller? I agree that its disappointing that they lost on a technicality, believe me I would have loved to see a GCL 1,2, but really there is no one to blame other than the Moeller coach. The only two teams it effected were centerville and Moeller, and im sure the centerville people dont care so no else really needs to care about Moeller. Dont get me wrong i do agree it was unfair and the moe should have got second, but at the same time i dont feel bad for them because they missed something like that. Also you saud if that happened to centerville or any other team they would be just as upset. Thats very true, but then we would just be saying who cares other than the centerville people?
I think we should care about Moeller's unfortunate predicament, but I believe it should be directed towards the Moeller diving coach. He has a responsiblity to his team as well as his divers. He ought to be fired for selling his team short for his so precious club divers. It's a real shame that his lack of attention cost Moeller second place. It would be nice to see Centerville give them the runner-up trophy, but it is not expected of them either. They did win it fair and square in the end because the rules state that uncaught errors such as this one must go on. It is just too bad.
rockettrack
02-23-09, 11:41 PM
In division 2 girls diving the swdab had posted that 6 divers qualified to the state meet. Two days later they informed the 6th place girl that the state website only listed 5 qualifiers so she doesn't get to compete at state!
So in the Moeller case, they said that a mistake had to stand, but in this case they suppossedly corrected the error. Go figure. The OHSAA is a joke.
xbomberd08
02-24-09, 01:05 AM
This is from the Blue 70 people
Hi all, Back form Switzerland, and thought I would throw an answer or two in for you.
the blueseventy compostie material DRST is not neoprene (just to clarify this for all) and the total thickness of the material is 0.3mm, well below the legal limit proposed of 1.0mm.
Having been a part of the process and been in attendance in Lausanne yesterday I can confirm on behalf of blueseventy that we and the other brands are delighted with the outcome and we now have (Subject to Dubai meeting ratification) a set of rules that we can work to use to define our on going technologies.
Our suit IS Legal, always HAS been legal and WILL continue to be legal. This we are of course not too suprised, as we have always maintained a postion of working within the rules of FINA.
Any questions, then please do drop me a message.
Deano
blueseventy Marketing Director.
Here's an article from the NCAA admitting the new suits have a pretty bif effect on the times
http://collegeswimming.com/news/2009/feb/19/cap-relief/
Sorry for the long post, just wanted to give a little more info on these suits.
They don't mention the buoyancy factor of the blueseventy...and apparently that's what the suit's known for. Anyone know exactly how buoyant the blueseventy is?
ElksSWIM2010
02-24-09, 07:06 AM
yeah right we"re not giving up the trophy to anyone
BackAgain122
02-24-09, 09:37 AM
I think we should care about Moeller's unfortunate predicament, but I believe it should be directed towards the Moeller diving coach. He has a responsiblity to his team as well as his divers. He ought to be fired for selling his team short for his so precious club divers. It's a real shame that his lack of attention cost Moeller second place. It would be nice to see Centerville give them the runner-up trophy, but it is not expected of them either. They did win it fair and square in the end because the rules state that uncaught errors such as this one must go on. It is just too bad.
Very true the rule states that but I personally believe that they need to change that, the reason why i say that is because then people will be making mistakes all the time on "accident" and then when that thirty minute window is up they cant do anything about it? That rule needs to be changed!
DiveCoach
03-01-09, 12:01 PM
Why should the swimmers feel the consequences of a Diver?
In the same respect, who should the divers feel the consequences of the swimmers? There have been plenty of times divers have given the swim team a lead, only for the swimmers to be knocked out.
In the same respect, who should the divers feel the consequences of the swimmers? There have been plenty of times divers have given the swim team a lead, only for the swimmers to be knocked out.
Your point is valid, but, frankly, swimming play a much larger role simply because there are 11 swimming events and only 1 diving event. Swimming can win a team championship without diving, but diving can not win one without good swimming to back it up. Thus, diving often seems irrelevant or is forgotten until a time like this when it has a monumental impact. Moeller would have taken second place at districts without this debacle, and it is easy to blame it on a mistake in an event that has debatable connections to swimming in the first place. By the way, when did divers get screwed by their swim team.
DiveCoach
03-01-09, 12:30 PM
Fact is, all the coaches and officials there that night were to blame. However, I can tell you no diving coach or official would have ever thought something like this would happen (the first time for me in 20+ years). But, that is why everyone at all times needs to be aware of anything going on. Like with the Mason buses, how many would ever think someone would break into the bus compound and unplug the buses? The same would go on with this.
Moeller did have a diver this year, just not competing that night. I wouldn't question the coach being the Moeller coach; I believe the Moeller diver is his son. However, I know for the last several years the Elder coach was not the Moeller coach. Thus, if the same as previous, he should have never been on deck to coach his club diver.
If the Moeller coach is now the Elder coach as well, then his allegence would have been with Elder that night. However, he and all the coaches still should have been aware and pointed something out.
Something was pointed out at some time. For, the officials did have a meeting and decided to keep the scores the same. I do respect the officials; no one would want their job, but we couldn't have meets without them, period. It's just times like this that get weird. Once when something is caught, if you bring it up right away, they tell you to wait until the end of the meet. You bring it up then, and they tell you we can't do anything about it now, that it needed to be fixed earlier (like when you first caught it).
And, is a little different with diving that swimming. For, given the lists that divers make, some make their lists with their worst dives last, with their best dives last, or just make their lists. Thus, it can be realistic for a diver to move up or down several places within the last round, as the Centerville diver did, not likely if with swimmers.
Did Centerville cheat, though? No. They only worked within the rules. I know the Centerville coach well enough, I think, to know that she didn't plan this with her diver at all. She may not have even known that her diver had qualified until she heard his name. And, even then, if me, I would be thinking, "Maybe I missed a calculation" or something, not as much as, "They scr@#ed up, let's dive." Besides, if it went for any other diver, odds are, that coach would have done the same thing.
DiveCoach
03-01-09, 01:11 PM
Your point is valid, but, frankly, swimming play a much larger role simply because there are 11 swimming events and only 1 diving event. Swimming can win a team championship without diving, but diving can not win one without good swimming to back it up. Thus, diving often seems irrelevant or is forgotten until a time like this when it has a monumental impact. Moeller would have taken second place at districts without this debacle, and it is easy to blame it on a mistake in an event that has debatable connections to swimming in the first place. By the way, when did divers get screwed by their swim team.
In the same respect, can a team win a championship without a good 100m swimmer, or a good 500m swimmer? Sure. OK, so let's take those events out. With your own argument, you could say something like the 500m should be a sport unto itself because it is the only real distance race in the meet, that all the others are really sprints and find the fastest swimmers. But, then you could say take out all the 50m races, for so many of them rely on the starts and turns, not necessarily who is the fastest swimmer. Every event can play a part, including diving. Teams have benefitted from diving (Indian Hill recent years comes to mind immediately) just as teams have been hurt from diving (Everyone Indian Hill has competed against in recent years), benefitted from swimming (team s like St. X having so many USS swmimers) just as teams have been hurt from swimming (any team competing against St. X who don't have the USS swimmers to compete). I've seen places messed up by similar calls from swimming judges. What are you going to do, make all of those events their own separate sports?
It would be more relevant to say there are 12 events in a swim meet. It is just like a track meet, which is really a track and field meet. If I recall correctly, there are a lot more track events. However, the sport is track and field, not just track. If you would be for separating swimming and diving, you would have to support separating track and field.
Fact is, just as a team got hurt in an event, a team got help from an event. It could have been in a swimming event or a diving event. The blame lands little on diving not being "its own sport". There was a state medalist just a year or two ago, I believe, in diving and a relay.
I can understand you argument, though. Some summer leagues have done this, even though I don't believe any around here. And, of course, FINA recognizes it as such. But, then, you would also be talking about how it would affect things like the GCL all-sports trophy, the GMC all-sports trophy. I am not sure how those are scored. But, if it is the same number of points per sport, and some school wins and their diving had a significant contribution to it, then someone would be saying that diving should be an event in swimming or not included at all because it is such a small sport, etc.
Thus, still, I believe the best argument is as swim meet consists of 12 events.
There are all kinds of arguments for and against. More often than not, like always, people would be for separating them when they get hurt by it, like Moeller did here, or for keeping them together when they get helped by it, like Indian Hills has for several years. However, when a coach votes to separate them, then say they get a couple of good divers at their school, they would rather have diving an event. Or, when a coach votes to keep them together, and they hurt by it, they would rather have diving a separate sport.
In summary, if you separate swimming and diving, you are talking about separating track and field, differentials with the conferences all-sport trophies, people crying for one but then wishing they didn't. And, finally, in football, why should kicking make or break a game for some teams? Take it out. After all, it isn't really football; that is soccer. But, I would think most every coach will tell you that it wasn't the kick that made or broke the game for them, that it was everything else, that other did/didn't step up, that we got/didn't get some calls, etc. And, I would think few of them would look to vote kicking out. They accept it as part of their team. Maybe others should be accepting diving as part of their team.
I was not, and do not, dispute the impact of diving on swimming. Every point matters, and the points divers get for their team can turn out to be huge. The problem lies in the fact that, at its core, diving is fundamentally unrelated to swimming.
You point out, quite correctly, that teams can win without getting any points from certain events, like, for arguments sake, the 100 free. If a team manages to win a championship without a single point from the 100 free, that means the team made up enough points in other events to win. The nature of the scoring is designed in such a way that rewards balanced teams, and production in many events. The championship is supposed to determine the best overall team even though the team may not receive any points from the 100 free. However, since the team made up the lost points in the 100 free, and received more points than any other team in the other events, this team is declared the champion by merit of its performance in all events. While the 500 is longer than the 100, each event has an equal amount of influence on the meet. Thus, the best team is the team that can do well in all events which means the team is good in all aspects, not just one or two, which is most indicative of the best team.
The comparisons between swimming and diving, and track and field and football really fail to help your point. First of all, there are 10 individual Olympic track events (including the steeplechase), and 8 individual field events along with 4 relays. In track and field, both sides of the "and" yield nearly the same influence. Thus, the score at a track and field meet would be indicative of the best overall team in track and field events. The track portion might have a bit more influence due to the relays, but i am not sure how field events could be relays (that would be pretty cool though). Field goal in football are a integral part of the game. Removing field goals would be like removing the 3-point shot from basketball. It just can't be done without severly altering the game so much that it in fact becomes a different sport. Football was created with the field goal in it, so, therefore, the field goal belongs to the game. Belief in separating diving from swimming is not comprable to the separation of track and field or the elimination of the field goal in football
You certainly are correct in that the way people feel about diving in swimming is directly related to the benefit or detriment it provides to their team. The best way I can think of incorporating diving with swimming better, besides separation, would be to make multiple diving events, like different heights of platform and springboard. That way, it would be like track and field and the final score truly shows the best overall team. Unfortunately, I do not see how the logistics on this would be done, and most facilities are probably not capable of supporting this many different types of boards and platforms. Separation might cause some early headaches, like the conference all-Sports trophies, but this is more feasible than building vast amounts of new diving equipment. Thus, the best overall swim teams could be determined apart from the best overall diving team, which would ultimately be fairer for both.
DiveCoach
03-04-09, 11:07 PM
I have no problem separating swimming and diving. However, there can very well be a whole host of items to consider that you still haven't considered (as well as I would even consider). For instance, if separated, then when one pool would be having a diving meet, swimming isn't going to be able to happen. And, don't think diving is going to be satisfied any more going first to get out of the way or rushing our warm-ups. We will be looking for plenty of time for warm-ups, possibly having 11 dive meets, which are starting to pop up, etc. Thus, fewer pools will be available. And, that would mean fewer meets.
Then, the athletic departments have to consider the money it takes to conduct meets. Some schools have to consider renting space. If separate diving meets are going on, then you are talking about officials won't be available for swim meets. How much would the officials get paid? They are only judging one event, but it would be its own meet, then.
This probably sounds biased. Sorry for that. However, items like this are legitimate items to consider as well. And, there could possibly be even a half dozen more items that no one would consider.
It is easy to say separate the two (which on one hand I would like, on the other I wouldn't; thus, I wouldn't want to vote). Harder to implement it.
DiveCoach
03-04-09, 11:09 PM
The high schools may even be following the practice of the NCAA. A reason not to separate? No. But, also, a reason to stay together, following a successful example.
xswimmer100
03-05-09, 09:14 AM
The high schools may even be following the practice of the NCAA. A reason not to separate? No. But, also, a reason to stay together, following a successful example.
I believe DiveCoach has raised many great points. The fact of the matter is this: The OHSAA has specified the sport as Swimming & Diving. This encourages much greater unity amongst athletes, all of whom compete in the pool.
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.