Officiating and players/coaches/parents. Something to think about.

[phatneff]

On a side note, when will parents ever learn that the referee does NOT decide the game??? The referee makes calls, whether good or not, that determine where the game goes from there. If a goal is scored from a set piece after a call is made, to the chagrin of the parents/coaches/players, it is not the referee's fault that the ball went in the goal!! He/she did not place the ball in the goal and call it a score! We, as officials, are the easiest scapegoats for parents/coaches/players because we are the innocent bystander at the time. We are not the product of their parenting or coaching, so the blame has to fall on someone, right? So we officials become the reason.

If I had a nickel for every time a parent says something to me as I walk out of a game, I would be rich and not care about what is said on these message boards. But instead, I'm not rich, and I like to make my point.

If it is our fault for the result of a match, shouldn't it also be bad coaching or bad parenting for the player/team to allow more goals than the other team?? Isn't it bad parenting to not make the kid understand that you win some and lose some, and that it won't always be fair in life?? Isn't it also bad parenting for the parent to make comments to the referee after the game by not showing respect to the authority of the game??

I do not have children, but if God blesses me with at least one that becomes an athlete, I will be sure to teach my child to respect the game and its authorities, as well making them understand that things will not always go his/her way.

Just something to think about. For you players out there, feel free to show this to your parents.

[OhioBobcatFan06]

I think it should be required for all players to referee the game at some point... Getting my refs license at 13 was one of the best things I've done. It taught me to respect refs, toughest job you can have, easily. You know you've done a good job when no one likes you, how wrong is that! Also made me a better player. Not only did I learn the 1 foot rule for throw ins, but seeing soccer from the refs perspective really helped me to become a better passer...

You would think that my age would stop people from saying stuff to me? Nope, 13 year old doing a sideline to a game for GAASA of kids just a year or two younger... Parent's wouldn't lay off me. It was terrible... And I had evaluators tell me I was pretty darn good too...

One thing I will say, experience makes a huge difference in officiating. It's easy for me now, I'm 18 now and I enjoy it, actually get some compliments from knowledgable coaches... Of course I still hear it from parents... You don't know how many times I've been asked if I'm on drugs.

[Soccer1976]

As a referee though I believe you should be professional on the field, not put on a show and set aside your ego's. Remember the game is for the players so let them determine the outcome of the game

The best referee is the one that is not noticed before,during, and after the game has been completed.

[phatneff]

The best referee is the one that is not noticed before,during, and after the game has been completed.

I'm going to disagree with this comment. Unfortunately, the actions/words of the players and/or coaches force the referee to be noticed by issuing cautions or ejections. And before you say that the referee should have a thicker skin, it's not always toward the referee that these actions/words are directed.

[SoccerDad2006]

I agree completely with the original post. The yellow shirt is a bullseye for excuses which hide the fact that players and teams win/lose games. Having been a soccer parent for ten years, it's been embarassing to see the decline in civility at youth soccer games. This applies to parents, coaches, and the players which follow the lead of those setting the example.

I find it ironic, however, that at higher level matches (elite club, college, pro), the officials are treated with much greater respect, even though much more is riding on the outcome of each game.

The best referee is the one that is not noticed before,during, and after the game has been completed.

The only way this is possible if if ther are 22 players on the field and two coaches who have an equal view of acceptable behavior and stay within those mutually understood boundaries. We all know this is impossible. Therefore, the officials have to have a very high, albeit subtle, profile in the game.

[phatneff]

I find it ironic, however, that at higher level matches (elite club, college, pro), the officials are treated with much greater respect, even though much more is riding on the outcome of each game.



This is because of several reasons. The first and probably most important is that the maturity and experience at the level is much higher. Secondly, those players and coaches are held accountable for their actions. In high school level and below, there tends not to be as much discipline as in the higher levels. The players are not raised with that form of discipline, which carries over to the coaches (in my opinion). In my high school days, it was unheard of to talk back to the referee, or anyone else for that matter. I've gotten my fair share of yellow cards because of that. Well, as time went on, I realized that gotten respect is a direct result of given respect. So I chilled out. Nowadays, the high school players think they are invincible and feel they can say or do anything they want and get away with it because that's what happens in their non-sport life due to lack of discipline.

Society has turned very soft anymore. There is no such thing as tough love. Every kid has to be coddled as they are growing up, and look what that leads to on the field: lack of discipline, no accountability, and no respect for authority.

[cincysoccercoach]

Amen phatneff. Personal responsibility for one's mouth and action has gone out the window. It makes it tougher to coach as well if you're a disciplinarian as a coach. People are looking for the easy way out and that is usually done by blaming the other person.

To make another point, I am a vocal coach that will impose myself on a referee if I feel he is not protecting the players from physical harm. I would much rather see a game called closer than to let the "jeanie" out of the bottle. High school boys are 85% testosterone / 15% brains and when they are physically challenged they respond in kind. Not a proper response but a typical response. Once the physical play gets escalated it is hard to stop and I blame that on the referee for not getting it under control. Coaches have limited ability to affect the game after it starts. You can substitute a few offenders but it is impossible to change out an entire team to prevent the escalated play. Easier to keep it in the "bottle".

[the og]

i agree that the coaches, players, and parents are all responsible for their own actions but you have to think that maybe they are all finally frustrated with the referees. there is no arguing that high school refs in this city have been doing a poor job in the last few years. how can the games be fair if they are not being called accurately?:shrug:

[phatneff]

i agree that the coaches, players, and parents are all responsible for their own actions but you have to think that maybe they are all finally frustrated with the referees. there is no arguing that high school refs in this city have been doing a poor job in the last few years. how can the games be fair if they are not being called accurately?:shrug:

Maybe you didn't completely read my post...........................

"Isn't it bad parenting to not make the kid understand that you win some and lose some, and that it won't always be fair in life??"

"I will be sure to teach my child to respect the game and its authorities, as well making them understand that things will not always go his/her way."

[soccerdad]

Here we go.As a ref (paid)You should know that you will be critisized time to time from your employer(players,coachs,parents,schools)on your performance.Nobody said it was easy.I do agree that there is certain way to go about that.But what burns me is the(showing respect for the game)(the game and it's authorities)(refs don't decide the outcome)It's not your game!The players,coachs and fans are your checks and bal.Make it clear up front what will and won't be called.Take control early.(safety).Why not use the line
refs for more calls or lack of.The center ref is always calling off(control) the line refs.And a fact that you should know is when 2 teams(good and equal)play a game,there are very few scoring opportunities.So yes, a free kick or penalty absolutly decides some games.When 2 teams play and there is alot on the line, they are called differently and you know it.Remmember that the win or loss goes in the teams column, not the refs.There is no cure,but if you call a good(flow)game and your fair than Thanks! If not work on it.Note:some of the refs can barely cover a 20 yrd. area of the field.What happen over there?

[soccerdad]

Here we go.As a ref (paid)You should know that you will be critisized time to time from your employer(players,coachs,parents,schools)on your performance.Nobody said it was easy.I do agree that there is certain way to go about that.But what burns me is the(showing respect for the game)(the game and it's authorities)(refs don't decide the outcome)It's not your game!The players,coachs and fans are your checks and bal.Make it clear up front what will and won't be called.Take control early.(safety).Why not use the line
refs for more calls or lack of.The center ref is always calling off(control) the line refs.And a fact that you should know is when 2 teams(good and equal)play a game,there are very few scoring opportunities.So yes, a free kick or penalty absolutly decides some games.When 2 teams play and there is alot on the line, they are called differently and you know it.Remmember that the win or loss goes in the teams column, not the refs.There is no cure,but if you call a good(flow)game and your fair than Thanks! If not work on it.Note:some of the refs can barely cover a 20 yrd. area of the field.What happen over there?

[phatneff]

Thought what you said was so important that you had to post it twice, huh?? LOL

I'm going to respond in pieces here.

Here we go.As a ref (paid)You should know that you will be critisized time to time from your employer(players,coachs,parents,schools)on your performance.Nobody said it was easy.I do agree that there is certain way to go about that.

True, but in what profession is it deemed acceptable to be derogatory to your subordinates?? None that I know of. In professional sports, you will get fined it you comment on the officiating. Unfortunately that can't be implemented at this level.

But what burns me is the(showing respect for the game)(the game and it's authorities)(refs don't decide the outcome)It's not your game!

You're darn straight it's not our game!! There are rules applied to the game. We, as officials, are there to make sure those rules are followed. If not, then we become visible. If they are followed, we won't exist. In life, the people are the players and the police are the referees. Sure, people do illegal things. Sometimes they get caught, sometimes they don't. But, if a police officer catches you doing something you do wrong (whether or not he is correct in what he saw), are you going to whine and complain about that freely to the officer, or will there be a consequence to pay for it.

The players,coachs and fans are your checks and bal.

That is correct. That's why there is a voting process by the coaches, admins, assignors, etc. to determine who should do tournament games. If you see poor officials in tournament games, that's because the coaches and school admins shirked their duty of voting adequately. What they do instead is vote based solely on name recognition. There are many officials that are eligible for later round tournament games who have not officiated a game for several years!! Whose fault is that???

Make it clear up front what will and won't be called.Take control early.(safety).Why not use the line
refs for more calls or lack of.The center ref is always calling off(control) the line refs.

What you don't see is a recommended pregame meeting among the officials. The CR will tell the AR's what he/she expects from them. What is the standard for the diagonal form of control (3-man system) is that the CR has the sole right to call what he/she feels necessary. If an AR is raising the flag for a call, the CR does not have to acknowledge it. That's just the method of reffing that the southwest area has conformed to. There are other methods, such as the 2-man or the 3-whistle system, but those prove to be more of a detriment than the diagonal method. If you disagree send in something to the NFHS to express your concerns about that.

And a fact that you should know is when 2 teams(good and equal)play a game,there are very few scoring opportunities.So yes, a free kick or penalty absolutly decides some games.

That is true, too, but it is HARDLY at the mercy of the referee. As I stated before, the officials are there to police the game, not decide it. The officials do not place the ball in the goal, nor do they interfere with the players/goalie who are trying to stop the ball from going in. A foul is a foul, so if it results in a PK, it is not the official's fault by any means.

When 2 teams play and there is alot on the line, they are called differently and you know it.

No, I don't know it! No referee should ever call a game differently based on what is "on the line". Again, a foul is a foul. It doesn't matter who is about to win the state or not! Yes, we will do it based on level of play because we may add some more leniency to those less skilled players/teams.

Remmember that the win or loss goes in the teams column, not the refs.

What is your point here? No referee that I know, or even heard of, compiles a "win/loss record." You're putting way too much into your personal opinion here.

There is no cure,but if you call a good(flow)game and your fair than Thanks! If not work on it.Note:some of the refs can barely cover a 20 yrd. area of the field.What happen over there?

This is very true, too. Unfortunately, we are lacking bodies in our pool of referees. I've said many times that those who are the most apt to judge are the least willing to give it a try. I challenge anyway out there who is so critical of officials to get their certified training and become a referee. We'll see how much they can handle.

Thanks for your comments. I hope you can see my side of the story, too.

[soccerdad]

Answer back. 1st, I am terrible on the computer.I actually wrote 3 different
replies and lost them. I am glad we agree on alot of the points.I will be the first to say I would be a poor ref.Again, thanks for what you do.But, (theres that word) you have to agree that because it's souly up to the ref., some calls or the way games are officiated are hard to swallow for the players/coachs. example-A foul is a foul. (we add leniency at different levels/playing ability.) Maybe a clumsy HS player comes in for an injured player at 76:00 min. in a tie game determining either teams advancement and he trips a player in the box.Accident?clumsy?purpose? should that determine the game.And yes I know the ref doen't put the ball in the goal, but any skilled player finishes that penalty most of the time. I guess we take the good with the bad.Play on!

[cincysoccer2006]

explain to me who decided this game then:

League Championship game. I have the ball at midfield. I push it literally past the ENTIRE defence in one dribble. I am headed for goal. I am at the 18 and am ready to shoot when BEEEEEEP, ref's whistle blows, game over. We lose. Coach has asked the ref APPROXIMATELY 30 seconds before my break how much time is left. ref says 2 minutes. but even so, he called the time as up when i was on a breakaway. so its now my fault because i wasn't fast enough to beat his clock right?

[soccerdad]

What took so long for you to fiqure out you had a player that could dribble the defense and score so easily.

[phatneff]

Answer back. 1st, I am terrible on the computer.I actually wrote 3 different
replies and lost them. I am glad we agree on alot of the points.I will be the first to say I would be a poor ref.Again, thanks for what you do.But, (theres that word) you have to agree that because it's souly up to the ref., some calls or the way games are officiated are hard to swallow for the players/coachs. example-A foul is a foul. (we add leniency at different levels/playing ability.) Maybe a clumsy HS player comes in for an injured player at 76:00 min. in a tie game determining either teams advancement and he trips a player in the box.Accident?clumsy?purpose? should that determine the game.And yes I know the ref doen't put the ball in the goal, but any skilled player finishes that penalty most of the time. I guess we take the good with the bad.Play on!

I can agree with you on this. It's even hard for me to swallow when I watch referees make some calls that they do. Many of the older refs out there have never played the game, so they follow the letter of the law. They don't understand the "flow of the game" and that is upsetting to see. I can only hope that some of the younger guys, and even players of today, become referees in order to help build the game.

I speak from experience after playing (and still do in the GCASL) for 30 years, and officiating for 15 years. I have also been chosen to be on a state final crew.

[phatneff]

explain to me who decided this game then:

League Championship game. I have the ball at midfield. I push it literally past the ENTIRE defence in one dribble. I am headed for goal. I am at the 18 and am ready to shoot when BEEEEEEP, ref's whistle blows, game over. We lose. Coach has asked the ref APPROXIMATELY 30 seconds before my break how much time is left. ref says 2 minutes. but even so, he called the time as up when i was on a breakaway. so its now my fault because i wasn't fast enough to beat his clock right?

This was obviously a USSF game and not a NFHS high school game. Regardless of what game it is, the lead official (CR in a diagonal 3-man system) has the official time. The poor judgment in this case is that you should NEVER blow the whistle to end the half or the game in a possible goal scoring opportunity. However, because of this, the referee did not lose or tie the game. It is not the referee's fault that you didn't score any previous goals.

[cincysoccer2006]

he did, however, have a very large effect on the outcome of the game. if you disagree with that then i think theres a mental asylum somewhere on eastern ohio.

and soccer dad, being a smart alec aside, it was one opportunity that i got against what was actually a pretty good defence, and it was by far the best opportunity of the game. and who said anything about it being easy? i was not given the chance to show how easy it was. referees should not have that kind of power.

i dont care what any of you whining referees say, you can mess up, and a lot of you do, and sometimes you do it very badly. in a momentum low-scoring sport like high school soccer you play a much larger role than you think. if it helps you sleep at night to think that you never have impacts on games, than fine, but you do.

[Whoknows]

I do have one problem/question. After watching quite a few games this year I've noticed that the refs in the JV games are much better than the ref who comes for just the varsity game. This is not just a one time thing, It's every single game. Are they not certified for varsity? What is it?

[CUP91]

he did, however, have a very large effect on the outcome of the game. if you disagree with that then i think theres a mental asylum somewhere on eastern ohio.

and soccer dad, being a smart alec aside, it was one opportunity that i got against what was actually a pretty good defence, and it was by far the best opportunity of the game. and who said anything about it being easy? i was not given the chance to show how easy it was. referees should not have that kind of power.

i dont care what any of you whining referees say, you can mess up, and a lot of you do, and sometimes you do it very badly. in a momentum low-scoring sport like high school soccer you play a much larger role than you think. if it helps you sleep at night to think that you never have impacts on games, than fine, but you do.

Until you've walked in their shoes, I'd simply suggest that you not carry such emotion. Yes, there are poor referees that don't seem to really care and don't do a good job but the vast majority are decent and there are many very, very good referees. You are really underestimating how difficult it is to stay completely engaged for a full match with things like: advantage, match flow, not following the ball (staying engaged for those split seconds after the ball has moved on to catch late fouls, etc..)... So, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but I seriously think most people seriously underestimate how difficult it is to referee high speed/intensity games.

[cincysoccer2006]

^^ pretty arrogant to say i havent, because i have.

[Messi]

Bottom line...there are good refs and there are bad refs, you win some and you lose some. In the cincy high school area, there are way too many bad refs.bc there is little to choose from. I have to agree and disagree with you phatneff. I think the good coaches/players know that refs don't decide games. But they can put a team in an advantageous situation that was unfairly given off of an awful call, and I think the ref deserves to know that it wasn't such a great call. If the refs are not criticized, then how are they to know they are doing a good job?? Yes, some parents and coaches take it too far.

My suggestion to all refs....don't let the little petty things go early on in a game (kicking a ball after a play is blown dead, shoving in the back on headers, etc.) because believe it or not, these are the things that increase tensions and make games get out of control later on.

[phatneff]

^^ pretty arrogant to say i havent, because i have.

Out of curiosity, what have you officiated? What is your USSF grade level and/or your NFHS class?

[phatneff]

Bottom line...there are good refs and there are bad refs, you win some and you lose some. In the cincy high school area, there are way too many bad refs.bc there is little to choose from. I have to agree and disagree with you phatneff. I think the good coaches/players know that refs don't decide games. But they can put a team in an advantageous situation that was unfairly given off of an awful call, and I think the ref deserves to know that it wasn't such a great call. If the refs are not criticized, then how are they to know they are doing a good job?? Yes, some parents and coaches take it too far.

My suggestion to all refs....don't let the little petty things go early on in a game (kicking a ball after a play is blown dead, shoving in the back on headers, etc.) because believe it or not, these are the things that increase tensions and make games get out of control later on.

As I've stated before, the way to criticize the ref is not on the field. It just leads to more bad calls due to lack of focus. There are grading methods that need to be done by the coaches, admins, schools, etc. If they choose not to do that, then it is their own fault to get the referees assigned to their games that are less experienced or less qualified for the skill level.

As for calling things early on, it's a lose-lose situation because if those smaller things are called consistently, the criticism becomes that we are not letting them play the game. If we don't call them early on, then it will happen as you say about getting out of control. We have to do what is best for the flow of the game, and again, with my experience in playing, I try to do that as best as I can.

[cincysoccer2006]

I've officiated up to middle school level in baseball and soccer, so i would definitely agree that i was not officiating at the same caliber as these guys. But I was yelled at by parents.

Can everyone just do me one thing, tell me another job where the person is allowed to get mad when others scrutinize his work? IIf we were in Europe the bad ref's get their names on the local papers and talk shows. Why is it so different in America?

[ssoocceerr]

Refs do have an affect on the outcome. They make subjective decisions and are human. If they don't have an affect, then why do we have them. You get some good calls, you get some bad calls. Each player, coach, spectator needs to decide how to react. It's no different in life, it isn't always fair and you need to learn to overcome. Complaining to the ref doesn't do anything to overcome.

Show video tapes of possible PKs to referees and see if they all agree ... the answer is no and PKs are game changing.

[phatneff]

I've officiated up to middle school level in baseball and soccer, so i would definitely agree that i was not officiating at the same caliber as these guys. But I was yelled at by parents.

Can everyone just do me one thing, tell me another job where the person is allowed to get mad when others scrutinize his work? IIf we were in Europe the bad ref's get their names on the local papers and talk shows. Why is it so different in America?

Again, I'll ask you to read my posts. Scrutiny is completely different from evaluation. No other job in the world allows scrutiny in the manner that referees get from bystanders. There is an evaluation process that referees get and if that process isn't followed, the criticism should go against those whose responsibility it is to evaluate.

And why is it so different in America??? One word: SOCIETY

[phatneff]

Show video tapes of possible PKs to referees and see if they all agree ... the answer is no and PKs are game changing.

PK's ARE game-changing. However, it's not the referee who commits the foul. The call is subjective, but if there is any question as to whether or not to call it, it's because the player did not use his/her own correct judgment before the action was taken. Do NOT blame a PK call on the referee!

Again, I'll say that not all officials perform satisfactorily. However, you cannot use a blanket statement and say that the referees determine the outcome of a game.

[ssoocceerr]

As a coach I never (at least to my players) blame the game on the ref. My point is that they do affect the outcome of the game. Did you catch any of the Arsenal / Bolton game today. It would be a different game if the offside call would have been made. And yes it was offside.

So how do you explain when a player commits a foul and the ref doesn't call it ... lucky for the player but what about their opponent.

[phatneff]

As a coach I never (at least to my players) blame the game on the ref. My point is that they do affect the outcome of the game. Did you catch any of the Arsenal / Bolton game today. It would be a different game if the offside call would have been made. And yes it was offside.

So how do you explain when a player commits a foul and the ref doesn't call it ... lucky for the player but what about their opponent.

LOL.....since people can't understand it in the way that I've put it already, I'll try to put it in a different way:

REFEREES ARE NOT PERFECT, NOR ARE PLAYERS. REFEREES DO NOT GET ON THE PLAYERS WHEN THEY MESS UP, AND REFEREES DON'T EXPECT THE PLAYERS/COACHES TO GET ON THEM WHEN THEY MESS UP. LIFE IS UNFAIR AND INSTEAD OF WHINING AND CRYING ABOUT IT, YOU LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT AND TRY TO OVERCOME THAT ADVERSITY. YOU WILL GET MUCH LESS OUT OF THE REFEREE WHEN THE COMPLAINTS RAIN DOWN ON THEM THAN MOVING PAST THE MOMENT.

I also want to emphasize that I'm not saying that you can't disagree with the opinion of the referee. That is why there are captains......to ask questions but not to dissent. Once dissent starts occurring, then that's when the cards start appearing. The referee will NEVER change a call once play has resumed, so there is no point in b.tching about it after the fact.

Is that more comprehensible?

[cincysoccer2006]

the refs are the whiners, not the players.

firstly.

secondly, the refs don't yell at the players when they mess up, the coaches do. and i haven't personally been yelled at by a ref, but he has yelled at my friends for committing dangerous fouls (also known as 'messing up'). and you think htat other jobs are not scrutinized? heck, teachers make fun of people in my COLLEGE CLASSROOMS for not knowing things, that is almost the height of scrutiny. refs are the ones that need to know that not everyone will agree with them and stop complaining about how nobody shows them respect.

if you want my respect you have to earn it. putting a shirt on and blowing a whistle doesn't cut it.

[phatneff]

the refs are the whiners, not the players.

firstly.

I'm going to respect your opinion..........but seriously???? Are you kidding???

secondly, the refs don't yell at the players when they mess up, the coaches do. and i haven't personally been yelled at by a ref, but he has yelled at my friends for committing dangerous fouls (also known as 'messing up').

No, that's called trying to prevent injury later on.

and you think htat other jobs are not scrutinized? heck, teachers make fun of people in my COLLEGE CLASSROOMS for not knowing things, that is almost the height of scrutiny.

That's sounds like a quality college that you go to. I'd ask for my money back if the teachers are doing that to the students. Oh yeah, do those kids that are being "made fun of" yell back at the teachers?

refs are the ones that need to know that not everyone will agree with them and stop complaining about how nobody shows them respect.

How many times do I have to say it????? Nevermind, I won't repeat myself again.

if you want my respect you have to earn it. putting a shirt on and blowing a whistle doesn't cut it.

Is that why you stopped reffing and umping in middle school?

Just out of curiosity, how does a REFEREE earn a PLAYER'S respect? The referee is not the one playing the game! Shouldn't the twice amount of experience count for that?

Btw, this is good banter. Keep it up.

[soccer05]

Referees are paid decent money to do a job. They should perform in a professional manner as if it was a full-time job. Refs should treat players and coaches with respect and players and coaches should treat refs with respect. A game can be determined by a bad call and games can get out of control if the refs do not keep a game under control - this can result in injuries to the players. Refs should remain unbiased and call the game fairly for both teams. Granted, things are going to get missed, refs are only human. I have seen a decline in refs over the years, sad to say. If a ref calls a good, fair game, odds are there will be no comments from spectators; don't call a good, fair game, then expect to hear comments. If they're not doing their job at work, I'm sure their boss would be writing them up, firing them; why should this job be any different.

[cincysoccer2006]

sarcasm and maturity level aside...(on both ends)

a referee earns the players respect by making the right calls and doing the right things at the right times. there were refs that i respected immensely for their ability to keep control of the game without having to use cards or their whistle excessively, something i myself probably am not able to do. BUT GUESS WHAT, I DON'T KID MYSELF AND RUIN LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIPS. i dont want grandpa who played soccer back before the civil war telling me that i should respect him because he has a whistle. when he makes a bad play and i as a captain (which i was for two years) ask "what was the call," i dont deserve to hear a "don't question me!"

do not dare to say that that doesnt happen in ohio high school soccer. like the dude above me said, evaluate and kick out refs that don't cut it. dont waste our time or theirs.

YOU are scrutinizing MY education and you use a sentence "Shouldn't the twice amount of experience count for that?"
I'm going to respect your opinion.....but come on, seriously??? are you kidding??
im sorry if i had to find a full ride scholarship to a large public university for being a national merit finalist and my parents didn't pay my way through college so i have to earn my keep. how stupid of me.

and i stopped reffing then because i didn't want to keep reffing, i was focusing on grades. MY BAD for being so stupid and not caring about the important things in life like reffing high school soccer while still in high school.

[phatneff]

sarcasm and maturity level aside...(on both ends)

a referee earns the players respect by making the right calls and doing the right things at the right times. there were refs that i respected immensely for their ability to keep control of the game without having to use cards or their whistle excessively, something i myself probably am not able to do. BUT GUESS WHAT, I DON'T KID MYSELF AND RUIN LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIPS. i dont want grandpa who played soccer back before the civil war telling me that i should respect him because he has a whistle. when he makes a bad play and i as a captain (which i was for two years) ask "what was the call," i dont deserve to hear a "don't question me!"

do not dare to say that that doesnt happen in ohio high school soccer. like the dude above me said, evaluate and kick out refs that don't cut it. dont waste our time or theirs.

YOU are scrutinizing MY education and you use a sentence "Shouldn't the twice amount of experience count for that?"
I'm going to respect your opinion.....but come on, seriously??? are you kidding??
im sorry if i had to find a full ride scholarship to a large public university for being a national merit finalist and my parents didn't pay my way through college so i have to earn my keep. how stupid of me.

and i stopped reffing then because i didn't want to keep reffing, i was focusing on grades. MY BAD for being so stupid and not caring about the important things in life like reffing high school soccer while still in high school.

LOL.....you are STILL not understanding my point of view. A lot of referees are NOT good, but don't make it a stereotype to say that they ALL are like that. Couldn't that be construed as being prejudice towards referees?? And yes, that was sarcasm.............but there was some truth to that, as well.

You're not in high school anymore, so since you're on this message board because you still care about high school soccer, why don't you start reffing again and make a difference, rather than saying how terrible the refs are??

Just an FYI, I wasn't "scrutinizing" your education. I was "evaluating" the teaching methods of your instructors.

And if you want to know anything more about my education, qualifications, experience, and work status, feel free to hit me up at phatneff11@cinci.rr.com. I'll tell you anything else you want to know.

[phatneff]

Referees are paid decent money to do a job. They should perform in a professional manner as if it was a full-time job. Refs should treat players and coaches with respect and players and coaches should treat refs with respect. A game can be determined by a bad call and games can get out of control if the refs do not keep a game under control - this can result in injuries to the players. Refs should remain unbiased and call the game fairly for both teams. Granted, things are going to get missed, refs are only human. I have seen a decline in refs over the years, sad to say. If a ref calls a good, fair game, odds are there will be no comments from spectators; don't call a good, fair game, then expect to hear comments. If they're not doing their job at work, I'm sure their boss would be writing them up, firing them; why should this job be any different.

The reasoning for this, like I've said before in my posts, is because we don't have enough referees in this area to cover all of the games. So, you're going to get older, less experienced referees at your games. However, what the assignors try to do is put those referees at the less-skilled matches, but it doesn't always work that way when you have numerous girls and boys games on the same day.

[cincysoccer2006]

i havent read your response to my post yet. my last post was out of line. i was in a very bad mood on a very bad night. please disregard it. i will leave it up as you already responded to it but know that i am sorry for posting it.

[phatneff]

Apology accepted. I did already reply, but I didn't find your response as offensive anyway. I just felt that it was your opinion, that's all. My personal email is in my last post, too, so if you want to write directly to me, please do.

[Messi]

Talking and complaining to the referee is part of the game whether anyone likes it or not. It is done at every level and in every sport. Blame will always be put on officiating whether you like it or not. But in the end, the coaches are the first to point fingers at his own team before he blames a referee for a botched game. They might not state it right after a game, but it comes out at practices.

As far as I'm concerned, good refs know when they are calling too tight and when they are not. There has to be consistency in the way a game is officiated and that is RARE in cincy HS soccer. When this consistency is not established early on in a game, the ref has himself to blame when he gets yelled at by coaches for making awful calls (or not making them).

So I think it is unfair for a referee to expect he is not going to get yelled at in a game for some of the calls he is going to make. Soccer is made up of mainly judgement calls...what the coach and the referee see are not always the same. And if a coach thinks there was a foul that needed to be whistled, he's doing his job by letting the ref know about it. And as long as I've been in cincy and watched/played here, there are a handful of refs that give off the vibe that they are too good to respond to a coach when he questions or wants a call to be made, so he's obviously going to yell louder and louder til the ref responds.

However, there are quite a few bad coaches in the area as well that take things little too far sometimes.

[calltheobvious]

Phatneff,

Wow where do I start. You make some very good comments, but others you might as well live in a Utopian World. Which by now it sounds as you have figured out is not going to happen. I have been watching my daughters play soccer for 12 years now through my basketball officiating eyes from rec. to Elite level club to High School Varsity, and the only game officiated worse than basketball is soccer. Don't get me wrong I see some very good soccer officials but that is not the norm. Basketball and Soccer have by far and away the most judgement calls of any sport that deal with advantage and disadvantage, the soccer term is play on. I know soccer is not officiated like basketball but maybe it would be better officiated if it were. I have been to so many HS games that a player is fouled hard but maintains control of the ball and we play on, by soccer terms good call, but that no call leads to the escalation of harder fouls then retaliation. As one very wise official once said to me it is hard to put the tooth paste back in the tube once it is out. There is the fine line of letting kids play and being over officious, but it is the officials job to control the game. It is the players job to adjust to the officiating. If you take control early the players and coaches adjust then you adjust. When this is done properly you will get all the flow you every wanted out of the game.

As far as respect goes for officials it is like everthing else in life it is earned. I really could care less about what the fans think they are fans rooting for their team and have little objectivity. In most cases they have little rules knowledge or any idea of what we as officials are trying to do. No offense to any one but this is me when it comes to soccer. I have some rules knowledge about soccer but only enought to be dangerous. That is the case of most fans. The respect I am looking for is from my officiating peers the assignors and coaches and players I work for. I have done this by working at my craft. I work a lot of summer basketball be it AAU or High School Summer leagues. I go to camps to learn and improve my skills. This is where you earn the respect of the players and coaches. They see you on the summer curcit working hard and putting in the time just like they do. They get to know you as a human being not just as a striped shirt. You make connections and relationships with the players and coaches. Then when the season comes and you have to make that difficult call it is easier for the player and coach to know where you are coming from. Just by putting on the uniform we should be given some amount of respect because we do a thankless job for miniminal compensation, but the rest is earnd by our actions on the court or field.

There are only a few things we can control as an official. 1. Your appearance. Do you look like you belong on the field or in the line at Golden Corall. 2. Be professional. Treat people like you want to be treated. 3. Use proper mechanics. It helps the coaches players and fans know what is going on. 4. Know the rules. By knowing them and applying them fairly you can never be second guessed. The last thing we have is judgement, and as we all know as officials it is like beauty. It is in the eye of the beholder. Some will like the call and others won't. Just remember that 80% of the people out there are good honest hard working people who want to go see their children play a sport and be treated fairly and learn life lessons from sports. It is an extension of the classroom. Then there is the other 20% who no matter what happens will never be satisified with the officiating probably coaching too. They got screwed from the word go. That is they way life works too. 80% of people make life worth living the other 20% make it more difficult. I'll choose to concentrate on the 80%. Sorry for being so long but I am passoniate about officiating (which it seems you are too.) it is a great hobby that I have found and made many life long friends. Keep, keeping on, and just ignore the 20%. :cool:

[Hugesoccerfan]

I have to agree that the refs in soccer can be great or very very bad. My son, who plays high level club soccer and is playing currently for a team in the GMC was in a game last week I was tempted to take him out of. Our coach, who is normally NOT vocal, raised an issue (yes, yelled at) a ref about two obvious hard fouls that were not called. The ref threatened to throw him out of the game (which is understandable). What is completely out of hand from there was the referee's reaction. He proceeded to completely ignore any fouls the other team did and called us for any ticky tack foul he could find (even from across the field, as far as 50 yards away). We were very lucky that only one kid got hurt as a result (fairly bad)--actually four of our players left the field with injuries. The other team also did not take full advantage either, which they could have and just whaled on our players. Aside from a punch, they could have done anything and it would not have been called. After the game as a player from our team walks by him limping, he is giving the "high five" to his partner, like "I showed them". Unfortunately for us, he had us again last night in a similar game (and obviously still is holding a grudge as the same thing happened, just to a lesser degree). Just because a ref has it out for a coach or a parent, he makes it an unsafe atmosphere for kids. This is the type of guy that parents jump over the fence and attack. We had nothing against either team, just the ref's reaction and obvious bias. He sulked like a little baby daring parents to question him not calling obvious flagrant fouls.

[soccerfan40]

Hugesoccerfan -

As an official, I will apologize even though I wasn't there. If you have a game film, your coach should send it to the state or even to the assignor. It may not help at all, but the video doesn't lie. I know from being an official it is hard to stay focused "all" the time when you are being yelled out. However, it is our job to overcome and officiate the best we can. The big thing is consistency. From what you are stating, there was no consistency.

[phatneff]

Hugesoccerfan -

As an official, I will apologize even though I wasn't there. If you have a game film, your coach should send it to the state or even to the assignor. It may not help at all, but the video doesn't lie. I know from being an official it is hard to stay focused "all" the time when you are being yelled out. However, it is our job to overcome and officiate the best we can. The big thing is consistency. From what you are stating, there was no consistency.

Ha! Before even reading this post, I was thinking the same thing and was going to post it. Even if you can't get video, try to get the officials name from the press box, as many of the announcers of the games get that information prior to the game. If you can't get it from the announcer, call the school AD and get it from him/her. They will definitely have it. While your at it, ask for the assignor's name, too. That way you can give any information to that person, too. Again, even if you can't get it on video, you can notify the assignor and he/she can make sure that someone is in attendance to assess the official's next performances.

Another thing I want to point out is that officiating isn't just a job, it's an art. You have to have the ability to MANAGE people, as well as the game. Just because a referee may know the rule book like the back of his hand doesn't necessarily mean that he knows how to officiate.

[Hugesoccerfan]

If you have IRCI or cable you can see it. The first game was the Lakota East v Mason JV game. The two refs were the same that were at FF Mason as sidelines last night. Actually, the ironic thing is the center ref (who did both the Mason / Lakota East game and the Mason FF varsity game) that had the two as line's refs is very very good (I think). The game is being played quite often on TV if you know someone in West Chester. That is what we were so shocked at is he would actually be that arrogant to have these calls on cable TV and not worry about it (but then again, maybe he didn't know IRCI was recording the game).

[soccerizdabest]

Last Saturday I watched a game in Kettering, Alter-v-Carroll. I had burning sympathy for the center ref and the linesman on the team side of the field. The Alter assistant coach was absolutely belligerant, unsportsman like and, well, a total embarrassment to his team. They guy was screaming at the center ref and arguing with almost every call in the second half a the game. When he wasn't berating the refs he was belittling his team.

While it should not happen on any sideline it was more scandalizing because he is the coach of a Catholic team for Pete's sake! Why do parent's let their kids play for people that show so little respect for others??? Why do schools let those kind of folks represent them??? Why did the main coach sit by and let it go? The guy finally got a yellow card. Talk about a man with enough lips for two sets of teeth!!

Since he will never apologize, I would like to at least extend my apology, as a spectator, to the refs for the coaches unruly behavior. Sorry guys! You should not have to put up with that kind of abuse.

[lotr10]

If you have IRCI or cable you can see it. The first game was the Lakota East v Mason JV game. The two refs were the same that were at FF Mason as sidelines last night. Actually, the ironic thing is the center ref (who did both the Mason / Lakota East game and the Mason FF varsity game) that had the two as line's refs is very very good (I think). The game is being played quite often on TV if you know someone in West Chester. That is what we were so shocked at is he would actually be that arrogant to have these calls on cable TV and not worry about it (but then again, maybe he didn't know IRCI was recording the game).

I thought the refs last night were excellent. My only beef was that in the last 3 minutes, the center ref called a couple of fouls on FF that were not justified. These were critical because Mason was very dangerous on free kicks and at that point the game deseved to end in a tie and not be decided by the ref.

[phatneff]

I thought the refs last night were excellent. My only beef was that in the last 3 minutes, the center ref called a couple of fouls on FF that were not justified. These were critical because Mason was very dangerous on free kicks and at that point the game deseved to end in a tie and not be decided by the ref.

No matter how much you want to disagree with me, the ref does NOT decide the game! He does NOT put the ball in the goal! Even in a PK situation, he is not the one who caused the foul!!

The discretion of the referee is just that.......discretion. He sees what he sees and bases his judgment on that vision. I agree that many referees' discretions are hazy, but until every human becomes like a robot and sees the same exact thing and is programmed to call fouls in the same manner based on that, nothing will change. The ref does NOT decide the game. The PLAYERS do.

[lotr10]

Another thing I want to point out is that officiating isn't just a job, it's an art. You have to have the ability to MANAGE people, as well as the game. Just because a referee may know the rule book like the back of his hand doesn't necessarily mean that he knows how to officiate.

phatneff, let me give you and the other refs some pointers on what I think is appropriate fan behavior. As an excitable fan that likes to stand by the fence and express my opinion, here’s the ground rules that I follow:

• I never use profanity.

• I never aim the complaints directly at a ref, either on the sideline or in the center. I will however yell loudly such things as “call it both ways”; “let them play”; “call it consistent”; “he’s grabbing his shirt”; “give him a card”; “how can you card that”, “he was 5 yards offsides”; “he was even with the ball”; “you’re letting things get out of hand”; “handball”; “that’s a penalty kick”, “obstruction! (I haven’t a clue what it is but I know it when I see it)”; “stop the clock”; “why are you stopping the clock”; “he’s stalling”

• I don’t ride a ref. I’ll yell out at what I perceive to be a bad call, but won’t harp on it for ten minutes.

• All calls that favor FF are good calls.

• All calls that go against FF are bad calls.

• I never direct a comment towards an opposing player.

As I watch a game I understand subconsciously that many of my complaints are biased. As fans you can’t expect us to be objective. If sports didn’t involve emotion, why play the game. However, during the quiet parts of the game, I know that I may not have been entirely fair and over the years I’ve been able to get a smile out of the ref with some of my comments. My habit of signaling it’s FF’s ball after EVERY out of bounds has had more then one ref shake their head and smile when signaling the other way.

One thing I’ve noticed is that refs do get in a groove and whistle one team for 50/50 fouls over and over again. When your team gets called for a foul 5 times in a row, it looks fishy. We’re not totally ignorant on the sidelines. Now my experience is that over the course of the game the streaks even out and we’ll get a couple of calls in a row. But remember, when it’s happening, you’re going to get people yelling “call it both ways”.

So what’s my number one recommendation to refs, IGNORE us. You won’t hurt our feelings. Unless we’re using profanity or directing comments to opposing players, you should consider us non-entities. But when a ref stops a game to yell at a guy on the sideline for shouting “call it both ways” that ref should find a new line of work as they clearly don’t have the temperament to ref.

For the record, with over 15 years of watching high school and club soccer I have NEVER been tossed from a game. For that matter, I’ve never even been warned.

Also, I suspect you heard me yelling during the St.X/FF game as I did shout "call it both ways" a few times.

[phatneff]

LOL.....LOTR, I don't think those are actually "pointers", but rather your personal opinion on things.

I'll tell you what, I'll congratulate you for not being vulgar or uncouth in your cheering, but that's not what it's all about. It's about being rational. I could honestly careless about biased fans. It's expected. But there is a line to draw. Consistent whining over calling it "both ways" is honestly over that line. Anyone out there who claims that calls should be even for both teams is out of their mind! You, up in the stands, don't see the things that the ref might see or might not see, so yelling biased opinions from the stands does absolutely nothing. It certainly won't make the ref call things more in your team's favor.

To be honest, I don't hear/listen to those things, since it happens constantly. What I do hear/listen to are the absurd cries for things that fans think should be fouls, such as "high kick", "playing on the ground", "hand ball", and "offside" when they have absolutely no idea what the rule is. That's what bugs me the most. If you want to be a great fan and supporter, learn the game! Better yet, get a referee certification! You don't even have to get out there and officiate, but be clear on the Laws of the Game. Even best yet, DO get out there and officiate. Let me know how well you can block out all the crying and whining.

As a fan and a player, I NEVER complain about calls that are based on the correct law. I will complain about a missed call, but I will also say to those around me that the ref made the right call when everyone else is yelling about it. When I complain, it's for a brief moment as a fan, but as a player, I'll actually talk to the referee to ASK what that reason was for the call/no call. I don't TELL him that it was wrong, but I will suggest that he check the rule again. Then do you know what I do??? I let it go and cheer/play on, unlike many others. Don't get me wrong, though. I make plenty of mistakes, and for you players out there who know me, you'll have to agree that I will admit that I missed it or that I made a mistake...........like Ed Hochuli in the NFL!! But what can I do about it after the fact??? NOTHING. I do NOT call make-up fouls. That just makes it worse, and it totally unfair and unprofessional.

Anyway, to summarize my whole thread here, I'm just trying to say that everyone is human and you're going to do what you're going to do. I just want everyone to be a bit rational and know what's going on before you act on what you feel. You're in the stands, on the bench, or in a different part of the field, so you don't know what the referee sees at the time. Just respect that the call/no call was made and cheer proactively rather than jeer heartily. KNOW THE LAWS OF THE GAME!!!

[phatneff]

One last thing I want to add is that even though you may learn the Laws of the Game, it doesn't mean that you won't have disagreements. Even referees still debate the Laws on the Game constantly. If you want some good reading, check this message board out that is the NFHS soccer board:

http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=14

You'll see how even referees don't agree with each other!! Maybe that's a bad sign, too, but these are from all over the country.

[Hugesoccerfan]

I thought the refs last night were excellent. My only beef was that in the last 3 minutes, the center ref called a couple of fouls on FF that were not justified. These were critical because Mason was very dangerous on free kicks and at that point the game deseved to end in a tie and not be decided by the ref.

I thought the refs were good in the FF Mason VARSITY game as well. If you were there for the JV game, you couldn't of thought so if you were actually impartial. If you did, you are a blind fan. The FF JV kids were fouling constantly and not called (not to the extent of the Mason / East game, but you could sure tell the refs were still holding the grudge). FF won the game and deserved to but Mason fought through a lot of tough fouls (again this was the JV game). But this was a continuance of the Mason / Lakota East JV game where the same refs (the side refs from the varsity game) were a two man team (and had a hissy fit on the Mason JV coach). The center ref was not the ref for EITHER JV game unfortunately, because he is good (and like most good refs allowed things that were said by fans to go in one ear and out the other).

[phatneff]

I thought the refs were good in the FF Mason VARSITY game as well. If you were there for the JV game, you couldn't of thought so if you were actually impartial. If you did, you are a blind fan. The FF JV kids were fouling constantly and not called (not to the extent of the Mason / East game, but you could sure tell the refs were still holding the grudge). FF won the game and deserved to but Mason fought through a lot of tough fouls (again this was the JV game). But this was a continuance of the Mason / Lakota East JV game where the same refs (the side refs from the varsity game) were a two man team (and had a hissy fit on the Mason JV coach). The center ref was not the ref for EITHER JV game unfortunately, because he is good (and like most good refs allowed things that were said by fans to go in one ear and out the other).

Any referee that is biased or continues to hold a grudge from previous games does not need to be out there at all. Please report them.

[acmilan13]

Any referee that is biased or continues to hold a grudge from previous games does not need to be out there at all. Please report them.

Phatneff, were you in attendance at the IH vs Finneytown match last night? I thought I saw you there. The CR of this match most definitely holds a grudge against Finneytown from previous matches he has done. This particular official went so far as to post (in advance) about the game as to say "If I were going to be the ref in this match...." when indeed he happened to know he was assigned this match. The following is an excerpt from his post in the CHL thread:

I as an official I try to find out from other officials about the teams that I am about to officiate. If I was to referee the center of the IH and Finneytown game, it would be the tightest game ever. I have had both teams this year and in the past and they both stretch the laws of the game and the center official. They both bark at the officials on just about every call good or bad. The fans are the same way

This particular ref did not determine the outcome of the match, but certainly had an arrogance about himself. He had a run-in with Finneytown once before during a match in a previous season and has been a jerk to the coaching staff and players ever since. How is it that tolerance for one coaching staff is less than another coming from an official? Isn't this bias?

Should your above statement apply to this referee as well?

In my opinion, this guy is one of the most arrogant referees I have been around in Cincinnati and takes the field as if everyone is there to watch him. I also do not think that a referee should be able to coach another school during the high school season and officiate matches. I would think that would lead to a conflict of interest at some point.

Phatneff, if you are who I think you are (Finneytown vs Wyoming CR?) you are one of the best assigned to a Finneytown match. It is quite unfortunate that the CHL does not get the better crews on a consistent basis. Afterall, it is probably the best small school conference in the state.

I know I read somewhere that Indian Hill & Finneytown are always complaining about the officiating and expecting better....well there is a reason that Indian Hill & Finneytown are the top two DII programs in the area over the last 4 years.

[phatneff]

Phatneff, were you in attendance at the IH vs Finneytown match last night? I thought I saw you there. The CR of this match most definitely holds a grudge against Finneytown from previous matches he has done. This particular official went so far as to post (in advance) about the game as to say "If I were going to be the ref in this match...." when indeed he happened to know he was assigned this match. The following is an excerpt from his post in the CHL thread:

I as an official I try to find out from other officials about the teams that I am about to officiate. If I was to referee the center of the IH and Finneytown game, it would be the tightest game ever. I have had both teams this year and in the past and they both stretch the laws of the game and the center official. They both bark at the officials on just about every call good or bad. The fans are the same way

Unfortunately, I wasn't there. I work in Birmingham, AL. I'll have to find out who that referee is.

This particular ref did not determine the outcome of the match, but certainly had an arrogance about himself. He had a run-in with Finneytown once before during a match in a previous season and has been a jerk to the coaching staff and players ever since. How is it that tolerance for one coaching staff is less than another coming from an official? Isn't this bias?

Should your above statement apply to this referee as well?

In my opinion, this guy is one of the most arrogant referees I have been around in Cincinnati and takes the field as if everyone is there to watch him. I also do not think that a referee should be able to coach another school during the high school season and officiate matches. I would think that would lead to a conflict of interest at some point.

That absolutely holds true! Report him to somebody. I also agree that coaches of high schools should not officiate high school matches, either.

Phatneff, if you are who I think you are (Finneytown vs Wyoming CR?) you are one of the best assigned to a Finneytown match. It is quite unfortunate that the CHL does not get the better crews on a consistent basis. Afterall, it is probably the best small school conference in the state.

Thanks, but I don't officiate in that league, so it must be someone else you're thinking of who did that game.

I know I read somewhere that Indian Hill & Finneytown are always complaining about the officiating and expecting better....well there is a reason that Indian Hill & Finneytown are the top two DII programs in the area over the last 4 years.

[phatneff]

The following is an excerpt from his post in the CHL thread:

I as an official I try to find out from other officials about the teams that I am about to officiate. If I was to referee the center of the IH and Finneytown game, it would be the tightest game ever. I have had both teams this year and in the past and they both stretch the laws of the game and the center official. They both bark at the officials on just about every call good or bad. The fans are the same way



I went back and read his full post. I don't know who that official is offhand, but I'll tell you this...........I agree with most, if not all, of what he said!! I think the only difference is that I don't solicit information from other referees about schools that I ref. I can't go in based on other officials' opinions. I go in based on my own. If I have reffed a specific school before, I will keep that in mind when officiating their next game, but only as a point of reference, and not to be biased or hold a grudge.

[cincysoccer2006]

i just like yelling at refs

[phatneff]

i just like yelling at refs

not surprising.

[cincysoccer2006]

not surprising.

ha. as i told u in an email, i have never received any card in any level of playing, nor have i ever been yelled at for dissent from an official.

[floridafutboler08]

REFEREES DO NOT GET ON THE PLAYERS WHEN THEY MESS UP, AND REFEREES DON'T EXPECT THE PLAYERS/COACHES TO GET ON THEM WHEN THEY MESS UP

why shouldn't they expect players and coaches to get on them when they mess up? they are being paid, it's a job, if they screw up they deserve to hear about it

[floridafutboler08]

I find it ironic, however, that at higher level matches (elite club, college, pro), the officials are treated with much greater respect, even though much more is riding on the outcome of each game.


what games have you been watching? honestly...are you serious? if you have a problem with what is said or done toward refs at the high school games you are watching you would be appalled at what is said at any college, pro and even elite club matches

[floridafutboler08]

No matter how much you want to disagree with me, the ref does NOT decide the game! He does NOT put the ball in the goal! Even in a PK situation, he is not the one who caused the foul!!The ref does NOT decide the game. The PLAYERS do.

that is just an outrageous comment....so if a ref calls a pk, that is complete unjustified and an incorrect call, in the last minute of a scoreless game and the team scores and goes on to win it isn't the ref's fault? that's just absolutely wrong

[the og]

thats an easy thing for you to say phatneff because you are a referee and it takes ALL responsibility away from yourself. but to players YOU are the one who determines the flow of the game. YOU are the one who gives and takes away oppurtunities according to your own judgement, and wether it's good or bad is still helps determine the outcome of the game. floridafutbol knows about this personally due to a pk called against his team in the playoffs three years ago against fenwik i believe? but regardless, BOTH players and refs have responsibilities and the way both of them carry out those responsibilities does indeed determine the outcome of the game.

[cincysoccer2006]

what games have you been watching? honestly...are you serious? if you have a problem with what is said or done toward refs at the high school games you are watching you would be appalled at what is said at any college, pro and even elite club matches

well said. in pro games you can hear cursing at the refs (i also have heard it in some club high school games). do that in reg. high school ur out for 3 games.

[phatneff]

ha. as i told u in an email, i have never received any card in any level of playing, nor have i ever been yelled at for dissent from an official.

lol......i was kidding!

[phatneff]

that is just an outrageous comment....so if a ref calls a pk, that is complete unjustified and an incorrect call, in the last minute of a scoreless game and the team scores and goes on to win it isn't the ref's fault? that's just absolutely wrong

Yep! That's exactly what I'm saying. What happened in the other 80-90+ minutes??? Is it the ref's fault, too, that one team couldn't score more than the other???

In game stores, they sell this board game called CLUE!! Go get yourself one. With that, I won't won't address your other comments. It's not worth it.

[floridafutboler08]

Yep! That's exactly what I'm saying. What happened in the other 80-90+ minutes??? Is it the ref's fault, too, that one team couldn't score more than the other???

In game stores, they sell this board game called CLUE!! Go get yourself one. With that, I won't won't address your other comments. It's not worth it.

what happens in the other 80-90+ minutes is the ref actually does his job correctly and neither team finishes the chances they create, thus the game should remain tied but the ref makes a terrible call and give one team an undeserving win...no its not the refs fault that neither team could finish the chances they created but it is absolutely the refs fault for creating an unfair opportunity for one team that directly leads to them unfairly winning a match

...i went to my local game store and i couldn't find clue, however, i did find this game called life, u should go get one

[american football]

As a player and coach, I always strive to never leave the score close enough to be decided by an officials decision.

[cincysoccer2006]

what about when the teams are so close that one pk call DOES decide the game, whether a right or wrong call. anyone ever been in a game where that happens? because I have. its called even competition. there is no team in high school soccer that has no competition

[phatneff]

Lol...............................wow! Unbelievable!!

[cincysoccer2006]

this post is getting out of hand (not saying it was not my fault initially). Might want to be locked up.

[soccerdad]

Anybody consider instant reply? Maybe the ref can wear a helmet with a camera on it.The review would show two things.Was there a foul and the other wether or not he was even watching.Or maybe the ref doesn't get paid up front,but collects tips from the losing teams parents.Just a suggestion.

[Hugesoccerfan]

Look, I have a suggestion. We always rip the bad refs for bad games. We ought to start a thread complimenting the refs that are good and not noticed because they do a great job. Would be nice not to complain for once.

[soccerdad]

I have witnessed many well refereed games.I don't know who they were because they did't stand out or make a spectical(is that grammer correct?)of them selves.I have three kids.2 buck prem/mrl.college.So thats alot of games.
95% of them mostly go well.Thank you for that!

[phatneff]

Look, I have a suggestion. We always rip the bad refs for bad games. We ought to start a thread complimenting the refs that are good and not noticed because they do a great job. Would be nice not to complain for once.

I have yet to see a thread for that.

[ftskls]

I have yet to see a thread for that.

You and your crew did a nice job last night.(this from the losing team)

[phatneff]

Thanks. In your opinion, should I have given a PK to WH in the first half?

[ftskls]

Thanks. In your opinion, should I have given a PK to WH in the first half?

I dunno !! I'm at the opposite end of the field, 10 rows up in the stands. You were right on top of the play and made the call. Just like I don't know if the Kings player deserved a PK in the 2nd half. You were right there, I was at the other end.

[phatneff]

Ok. I don't remember the one in the 2nd half though.

[cincysoccer2006]

spectacle*

[CPTNSHWAY]

The job of the official is to mediate the game and keep it under control. However, when an affects the outcome of a game, such as making a very close call in the penalty box that results in a PK, the official has not done his job and therefore deffinately not an "innocent bystander."

[american football]

If we want better officials, we need to compliment and reward the good ones.

We need more great soccer players that want to officiate.

We can't play the games without the officials.

Be sure to remember the good ones, even when you lose the match.




Look, I have a suggestion. We always rip the bad refs for bad games. We ought to start a thread complimenting the refs that are good and not noticed because they do a great job. Would be nice not to complain for once.

[phatneff]

If we want better officials, we need to compliment and reward the good ones.

We need more great soccer players that want to officiate.

We can't play the games without the officials.

Be sure to remember the good ones, even when you lose the match.

With that being said, let me ask this question: Of all of you players out there, how many of you would like to become or have thought about becoming a referee? Why or why not?

[acmilan13]

The shortage problem is that many of the people who really do understand and have a passion for the game are continuing their playing careers beyond high school, and/or holding positions as coaches/trainers, and are not available to officiate high school matches - where there is a more urgent need for better referees. I know many good certified refs that do club games but are doing it at the U14 level and lower because they are also high school coaches or trainers. Or even have the potential to be excellent high school or high level referees. They would make a positive impact on the referee community for sure. At the same time, why would they give up playing or coaching though? That is why there is a shortage. The really good referees that are out there have played and studied the game at a higher level.

[ftskls]

It is his job to make a close call in the box. His job is also to be in position to make a correct call and to exercise proper judgement and enforce the rules of the game.
The job of the official is to mediate the game and keep it under control. However, when an affects the outcome of a game, such as making a very close call in the penalty box that results in a PK, the official has not done his job and therefore deffinately not an "innocent bystander."

[phatneff]

It is his job to make a close call in the box. His job is also to be in position to make a correct call and to exercise proper judgement and enforce the rules of the game.

Very true.

[phatneff]

The shortage problem is that many of the people who really do understand and have a passion for the game are continuing their playing careers beyond high school, and/or holding positions as coaches/trainers, and are not available to officiate high school matches - where there is a more urgent need for better referees. I know many good certified refs that do club games but are doing it at the U14 level and lower because they are also high school coaches or trainers. Or even have the potential to be excellent high school or high level referees. They would make a positive impact on the referee community for sure. At the same time, why would they give up playing or coaching though? That is why there is a shortage. The really good referees that are out there have played and studied the game at a higher level.

But that's what I mean! Why not become a referee even if you are still playing?? If you're a high school coach, then I can understand. But if you're not, and you have been/are still a player (no, not a playa), then you should become a high school referee.

I'm old. I still play. But yet I ref because I 1)love the game, 2)have fun doing it, 3) would like to TRY to make a difference in some kid's life in one way or another, and 4) the spare change is better than for coaching.

Although certified, I don't ref USSF games very much. That is because I choose to play softball during the spring and summer, and that takes time away from reffing because of all of my tournaments and such.

My point is that you can still PLAY and be a referee. You can still even COACH and be a referee, just preferably not in the same associations.

If you want to make a difference in the sport, become a referee. That way you will see both sides of the game!

[Hugesoccerfan]

I used to be USSF certified. Never reffed but SAY games and a few fill ins on CUSL games. I don't agree you have to have played to be an effective ref. I think it helps but is not required. The reason I don't ref any longer is I had a catastrophic knee injury a few years ago and can't run at the pace of the game any longer. My son is a top club player and I actually went thru ref classes with him to encourage him to ref. I ended up doing more than he did. I bring this up for two reasons. My son WON'T ref any longer. He had a few games and figured out just how hard it was (he was young at the time-12). I had to bail him out all game long on wrong direction calls, etc. We did a few girls SAY games together. After a few times, even with my encouragement, he was ready to quit. I think that is the biggest problem, is that if they don't get started young or have a bad experience (his was he was just so nervous and had SAY coaches yelling at him), they quit and when old enough to handle it, they just don't want to start or know how to get started again. Start with getting certified first. Then ref some younger SAY games and work your way up. I stuck to SAY and had a blast. I would explain rules to parents and stuck to younger age groups where the kids weren't so mouthy yet (the coaches and parents were but I'm a fairly big guy so they didn't bother me). You have to start and I think the reason they don't is they don't understand you will not be thrown out there your first game in a Buckeye game at center ref. You progress, just like playing.

[phatneff]

I'm going to disagree with you on that, too. First of all, I never said that you need to have been a player in order to officiate. However, the ones that haven't played before are usually the ones that get criticized the most.

Second of all, I have a strong opinion that referees should start reffing AFTER high school, and not before. That is because they are too young to understand how to handle parents and coaches. Plus, they are still learning the game itself through high school. Once they get over that "invincible" attitude they have in high school, they will have maturity to referee. Prior to high school, they don't have enough confidence to stand behind their own calls and get swayed by coaches and fans. That's not good for the individual, or the game of soccer.

[cincysoccer2006]

ha i remember reffing a game on time when i was 11. i tried to call a ball out and the girl kept playing, so i was like whatever and let it go. dad was pissed cause he was the coach of the other team. i had no balls to stand behind my call whenthe girl played on. kinda funny looking back on it

[soccerfan40]

If it is a penalty in the box, it should be called. There are many refs who do not want to call a penalty kick in fear of changing the game. That is a problem. I have been told when reffing that it needs to be murder for the PK to be called. Players sense this during the game and know what they may be able to get away with.

The Mariemont/Summit game this happened. There was a clear handball in the box in the first half and the CR pulled it out of the box. This could have changed the game one way but by not letting it be a PK changed it the other.

Just because it is the end of the game doesn't mean it should be let go. If the official is right on top of the play and makes the call, how can a fan in the stands say they have a better view from 50 or so yards away. This also applies to the players and coaches that are not right there.

Officials get a bad rap about a lot of things that causes teams to lose. They call the game to close so the team that plays overly physical loses, it is the officials fault. If you let them play, than the team that plays finesse soccer cries because they were manhandled. There is no easy street for the officials. They are wrong on just about every call. The officiating is not going to get any better until we get more officials than what is needed and the assignors can use only the good ones.

[soccerdad]

Watched a hard faught game last night bacon v fenwick.Alot of tension on the field.The fenwick coach was crying about everything and it spilled over to his players, but the ref did a good job letting play to continue while verbaly instructing everyone to settle down.The one thing that was odd though,is that our time keeper insisted that he was instructed by the ref to stop time everytime he blew the whistle.It ended up being a two hour game.This included substitutions as well.What's up?

[phatneff]

If it is a penalty in the box, it should be called. There are many refs who do not want to call a penalty kick in fear of changing the game. That is a problem. I have been told when reffing that it needs to be murder for the PK to be called. Players sense this during the game and know what they may be able to get away with.

I agree with you on this. I instruct my AR's to call anything they see that should be a foul within their quadrant, which includes their half of the PA. Most CR's tell their AR's that they want "first crack" at it, but I personally don't like that. Most of the time when the ball goes in the corner of the PA on the side of the AR, the CR doesn't follow that closely since the AR is right there (I'm one of them), so the AR is more in position to wave his flag should a foul occur. Also, if a cross then comes out of that corner and the CR was down in that corner watching everything, he will become WAY out of position when that cross goes into the center or the opposite corner. That's why I give my AR's their chances to call what they see. I can always wave them down if I don't believe it was a foul.

However, it does tend to get a bit more messy in the PA than in any other part of the field, and that's because there is just nowhere else left to go. So when everyone is packed down in there, there will be a lot of contact. Unfortunately, the CR and the one AR can NOT see everything that is happening all the time with so many bodies in there. So there will be many times when fouls aren't called if the CR or AR is not focusing on that specific place in the PA at the time. So please remember that.

Referees understand that any direct foul in the PA will result in a PK and can dramatically affect the game, so they will tend to let the "ticky tack" kinds of fouls go. At the same time, though, players must realize that just because they are in the PA, it doesn't give them free game to be more physical than usual. If they happen to foul, they will have to live with the consequences, should the CR decide to call it.

The Mariemont/Summit game this happened. There was a clear handball in the box in the first half and the CR pulled it out of the box. This could have changed the game one way but by not letting it be a PK changed it the other.

This goes along with what I just said above. A PK can change a game. Unintentional violations that are just inside the PA border will, many times, be brought outside of the box for the restart. Handling is one of those violations. On a side not, most of you out there have no understanding of the handling violation, so there are a lot of screams about no calls on that one. It all comes down to the discretion (I know everyone hates that word) of the referee at that moment.

Just because it is the end of the game doesn't mean it should be let go.

I disagree, to a point. If a foul occurs and in the CR's opinion a restart will not happen by the time the clock runs out, it probably won't be called. Given, the CR can stop the clock, but that isn't within the rules to do so in high school. If it's a yellow card or red card offense, then the CR should stop the clock after calling the foul.

If the official is right on top of the play and makes the call, how can a fan in the stands say they have a better view from 50 or so yards away. This also applies to the players and coaches that are not right there.

Officials get a bad rap about a lot of things that causes teams to lose. They call the game to close so the team that plays overly physical loses, it is the officials fault. If you let them play, than the team that plays finesse soccer cries because they were manhandled. There is no easy street for the officials. They are wrong on just about every call. The officiating is not going to get any better until we get more officials than what is needed and the assignors can use only the good ones.