Best High School Football Dynasty 1982-2007

[consumerman]

Who would you vote for

[WoodyHayes]

Not even close

[consumerman]

I wonder if Daditis and other Cowboy fans (congrats on an excellent season) know who A. Toomer is now

[yallerjacket]

I wonder if Daditis and other Cowboy fans (congrats on an excellent season) know who A. Toomer is now

I don't know about "Daditis", but I think 99.9% of Cowboy fans knew who Amani Toomer was since the 'Boys have been playing against him twice a year for a while now. Since you're talking about him, I assume he went to school at DLS?

[Chicago]

That makes sense.

I have to think that 99.9% of Cowboy fans are sharper than SLCDad.

I know I've never met one with a poorer grasp of logic (and that's taking the drunk ones as is, and not adjusting for what they might be like when sober).

[pied]

I wonder if Daditis and other Cowboy fans (congrats on an excellent season) know who A. Toomer is now

I believe he played on the team that won so many games without having very much talent.

On that note, it was good to see Jones-Drew play this weekend as well.

[SLCDad]

That makes sense.

I have to think that 99.9% of Cowboy fans are sharper than SLCDad.

I know I've never met one with a poorer grasp of logic (and that's taking the drunk ones as is, and not adjusting for what they might be like when sober).

Gee, thanks.

I'm not sure why Chicago has to lower himself to making posts like this. I suppose it makes him feel better about himself. Perhaps he's still smarting after getting smoked in the last debate.

Either way, his post is classless.

But . . . we've come to expect that from him because most of his posts are like that.

-

[Chicago]

Someone has to be in the bottom 0.1% of Cowboy fans.

Why would you want to stick some other poor sap with the distinction?

[pied]

Gee, thanks.

I'm not sure why Chicago has to lower himself to making posts like this. I suppose it makes him feel better about himself. Perhaps he's still smarting after getting smoked in the last debate.

Either way, his post is classless.

But . . . we've come to expect that from him because most of his posts are like that.

-

SLCDad, I have stated several times that I thought your manner of posting could be off putting to many and make people who would otherwise be neutral to SLC, dislike them.

You indicated on several occasions that you knew that, were only posting factual information, and enjoyed "stirring the pot".

Seems to me that you have invited people taking shots at you for some time now.

[SLCDad]

Who would you vote for

In the spirit of "stirring the pot", one thing lacking in the DLS dynasty is championships. DLS only has one and they are 50-50 in state title games. Most dynasties include the winning of many championships over a given period of time.

What do you think the DLS record would be from 1982-2007 if they had to play in a state tournament every year?
-

[SLCDad]

Someone has to be in the bottom 0.1% of Cowboy fans.

Why would you want to stick some other poor sap with the distinction?

LOL Perhaps you could choose a person who has actually been to a Cowboys game. I don't qualify.

[Chicago]

Ah, more evidence.

Many, many (and perhaps most) NFL fans have never been to an NFL game.

[SLCDad]

Ah, more evidence.

Many, many (and perhaps most) NFL fans have never been to an NFL game.

You also assume that every person who lives in a particular city is a fan of the local NFL team.

Think again.

Nevermind . . . actually thinking isn't one of your strong points.

[Chicago]

This is like having a five-year-old kid follow you around all day.

Laugh at what you think is funny, cry when you want to cry, but don't expect the adults to explain everything to you all the time.

If you think you are right, hey, nice job. Have a lollipop.

[SLCDad]

This is like having a five-year-old kid follow you around all day.

Laugh at what you think is funny, cry when you want to cry, but don't expect the adults to explain everything to you all the time.

If you think you are right, hey, nice job. Have a lollipop.

LOL Who is following who? LOL

I just wish this guy could actually have a coherent debate. I gave up on that a long time ago. He tried it once --- look what happened. It wasn't pretty.

[WoodyHayes]

I was coaching an employee the other day and he was filling me full of bull----. I actually asked him if he had went to Southlake and caught "Daditis" He looked and said, "Ha" and I said never mind you aint that bad yet! DLS was and is the guage which dynasties will be measured. Whats funny is they are making another nice little run, but according to the "Ref" SLC is done. I agree. Wasson was a horrible choice. But along with that came,
1 - Newton not as good as first thought
2 - Dodge a good high school system QB
3 - SLC's offense leaves the QB vulnerable
4 - MNW shut em out in the 2nd half and other coaches will study what theydid.
5 - SLC will go deep in the playoffs because of the district and area, but write this down. No title for a few years and they will compete just like the rest of the teams in Tx. The run is done!!!!!!!
On a good note, I was talking to the "Ref" when the Cowboys started the last drive and I bet him that Romo threw an interception. One vaniller Coke coming up for "Woody" courtesy of the "Ref"

[consumerman]

Gee, thanks.

I'm not sure why Chicago has to lower himself to making posts like this. I suppose it makes him feel better about himself. Perhaps he's still smarting after getting smoked in the last debate.

Either way, his post is classless.

But . . . we've come to expect that from him because most of his posts are like that.

-

it's always nice to officiate the discussion you are a particpant in

how can you lose?

[consumerman]

In the spirit of "stirring the pot", one thing lacking in the DLS dynasty is championships. DLS only has one and they are 50-50 in state title games. Most dynasties include the winning of many championships over a given period of time.

What do you think the DLS record would be from 1982-2007 if they had to play in a state tournament every year?
-

10,000 and 0

[consumerman]

In the spirit of "stirring the pot", one thing lacking in the DLS dynasty is championships. DLS only has one and they are 50-50 in state title games. Most dynasties include the winning of many championships over a given period of time.

What do you think the DLS record would be from 1982-2007 if they had to play in a state tournament every year?
-

DLS is 2-0 in games featuring #1 vs #2 teams and 1-0 in games with teams tat FINISHED #1 and #2

SLC is 0-1 in their only chance

[consumerman]

Gee, thanks.

I'm not sure why Chicago has to lower himself to making posts like this. I suppose it makes him feel better about himself. Perhaps he's still smarting after getting smoked in the last debate.

Either way, his post is classless.

But . . . we've come to expect that from him because most of his posts are like that.

-


gee Dad its been three days since you dug up something (anything) to prop up SLC

my vote for post importance and relevance to threads

daditis - 10%
chicago - 85%

add chicago has a great sense of humor
add dad is an insitgator and biased homer

other than that it is a close call as to who brings value to this board

[SLCDad]

gee Dad its been three days since you dug up something (anything) to prop up SLC.

Consumerman, you are a HOOT!!!

As soon as Naughty started the poll about the greatest current dynasties, YOU had to start this thread to prop up DLS.

Funny.

[SLCDad]

DLS is 2-0 in games featuring #1 vs #2 teams and 1-0 in games with teams tat FINISHED #1 and #2

SLC is 0-1 in their only chance

I'd suggest you compare strength of schedule over an entire season. You'd get a much better guage.

Your post reminds me of the debate you had with Concha when you were attempting to say DLS's schedule was tougher than StX's. It wasn't even close but you tried.

[consumerman]

Consumerman, you are a HOOT!!!

As soon as Naughty started the poll about the greatest current dynasties, YOU had to start this thread to prop up DLS.

Funny.

some people got the humor of my thread

for others it went over their head

[consumerman]

I'd suggest you compare strength of schedule over an entire season. You'd get a much better guage.

Your post reminds me of the debate you had with Concha when you were attempting to say DLS's schedule was tougher than StX's. It wasn't even close but you tried.

ummm no\
I never said DLS had a stronger SOS

what I said was SOS is important but not the only measuring factor

taking 3 overtimes to beat an unraked 3 loss team is another measure

DLS gave up 28 first half points in 13 games
St X gave up 24 first half points in 1 game
that is another measure

[Chicago]

Consumerman, the slow kid is just killing the whole class. Maybe they'll hold him back and we won't have to suffer like this next year.

[concha]

Amazing what playing cupcakes when you are at full strength can do to your stats.

[Chicago]

I think, as a general principle, any team out of the top 1000 or so is pretty much a cupcake for a nationally-ranked team.

They could lose to them, but that certainly means they should not have been nationally-ranked in the first place (unless something really wild happened).

So the difference between one team playing a team ranked 1145 and another team playing a team ranked 2278 is meaningless.

For top teams, it's the games against really good teams that make (literally) all the difference.

So I don't think it makes sense to look at the whole year. Just look at the really tough opponents.

And St. Xavier still had a brutal schedule if you look at it that way, since almost no one would get thrown out of the analysis.

[consumerman]

I think, as a general principle, any team out of the top 1000 or so is pretty much a cupcake for a nationally-ranked team.

They could lose to them, but that certainly means they should not have been nationally-ranked in the first place (unless something really wild happened).

So the difference between one team playing a team ranked 1145 and another team playing a team ranked 2278 is meaningless.

For top teams, it's the games against really good teams that make (literally) all the difference.

So I don't think it makes sense to look at the whole year. Just look at the really tough opponents.

And St. Xavier still had a brutal schedule if you look at it that way, since almost no one would get thrown out of the analysis.

very strong schedule

but also two narrow 3 point wins

[Chicago]

Right.

How a team performed is another question (although 15-0 with a state championship is tough to complain about).

My point is that looking at the whole schedule, adding up the ratings of all opponents, and dividing by the number of opponents, is a terrible way to look at it, since opponents that are not very, very good tend to all look the same to a top team, and accounting for differences between the 1500th team in the country and the 3000th is stupid. Which may be why SLCDad is all for it. Simple AND stupid is his Holy Grail.

It's the really tough games that make all the difference.

[consumerman]

but also two narrow 3 point wins

I apologize for quoting myself but least we forget, DLS went 12 years without having as many as two 3 point wins (as pointed out on another thread) and played several games against MUCH higher ranked opponents than anyone St X played in 2007.

1 3 point win
1 5 point win
1 6 point win
1 7 point win

were the closest games DLS had over 12 years

and those were against Mater Dei with Matt Leinart as a senior, Pitt, Buchanan who was a section champion and nationally ranked, and Mater Dei who was the #2 team ranked in the final national polls

the 3 point win and the 6 point win both came in 2000, when QB Matt Gutierrez played much of the season with an unhealed broken hand and in the 3 point win DLS led 21-0 and 31-14 and in the 6 point win DLS led 30-12

ya the same guy who plays for the Patriots

[SLCDad]

I think, as a general principle, any team out of the top 1000 or so is pretty much a cupcake for a nationally-ranked team.

They could lose to them, but that certainly means they should not have been nationally-ranked in the first place (unless something really wild happened).

So the difference between one team playing a team ranked 1145 and another team playing a team ranked 2278 is meaningless.

For top teams, it's the games against really good teams that make (literally) all the difference.

So I don't think it makes sense to look at the whole year. Just look at the really tough opponents.

And St. Xavier still had a brutal schedule if you look at it that way, since almost no one would get thrown out of the analysis.

It all depends on what you are attempting to evaluate. If you are looking at or ranking national top 10 teams, I agree. Only those teams who beat other great teams should be in the national top 10.

However, there is no way that you can lump a 2278 team in with a 1145 team. That's saying the 15th ranked team in a power state is the same as the, say, 40th ranked team. That's stupid.

I would also say that any team who plays a schedule full of teams ranked in the top 1145 in the nation is playing a tough schedule.

Also, I can see why you make statements like this because that is the only way you can prop up the weak schedule that DLS plays almost every year.

[pied]

It all depends on what you are attempting to evaluate. If you are looking at or ranking national top 10 teams, I agree. Only those teams who beat other great teams should be in the national top 10.

However, there is no way that you can lump a 2278 team in with a 1145 team. That's saying the 15th ranked team in a power state is the same as the, say, 40th ranked team. That's stupid.

I would also say that any team who plays a schedule full of teams ranked in the top 1145 in the nation is playing a tough schedule.

Also, I can see why you make statements like this because that is the only way you can prop up the weak schedule that DLS plays almost every year.

I see the point, but don't know that I agree fully.

Looking at '06 Calpreps rankings for the opwer state of TX

#15 team was Waco, ranked #142 in the Nation
#40 team was SA Reagan, ranked #388 in the Nation

http://calpreps.com/2006/ratings/Texas_all.htm


The #995 team in the nation(closest to 1000 from TX) was:
http://calpreps.com/2006/ratings/National_all.htm

Chilton a class A team, they were ranked #84 in the state.

I think that it is safe to say that they would be considered a cup cake to any team ranked in the top 25 in the country.



Also, why would Chicago try to prop up DLS' schedule?

[Chicago]

If being 1145th in the country means you are 15th in a power state (or higher, essentially by definition, in a non-power state), then there are way more states than I learned about in school.

[XdesIDtrans]

Objectively DLS is THE high school dynasty, by definition... They beat everything thrown at them including nationally ranked and recognized teams (not an Independence style dynasty - no offense intended)...

[phsbomber]

I'd suggest you compare strength of schedule over an entire season. You'd get a much better guage.

Your post reminds me of the debate you had with Concha when you were attempting to say DLS's schedule was tougher than StX's. It wasn't even close but you tried.

SLCDad;

I missed this from months ago. Weren't you the one...and the posts are out their to proove it..that said St xavier could not be considered with SLC and MNW...and you continually said that teh St xavier arguement of SOS meant...NOTHING. You pointed out that it was JUST wins and how badly the other teams got beat!!

Are you now saying that the team with the highest SOS and undefeated, should be the champion for each year.

Who was the champion for the most recently completed year...based on SOS deciding if the teams are undefeated.

I can support whoever it is...Pratville, St X, MNW, etc.

let me know. It sounds like you are a SOS convert based on your comments above.

[SLCDad]

SLCDad;

I missed this from months ago. Weren't you the one...and the posts are out their to proove it..that said St xavier could not be considered with SLC and MNW...and you continually said that teh St xavier arguement of SOS meant...NOTHING. You pointed out that it was JUST wins and how badly the other teams got beat!!

Are you now saying that the team with the highest SOS and undefeated, should be the champion for each year.

Who was the champion for the most recently completed year...based on SOS deciding if the teams are undefeated.

I can support whoever it is...Pratville, St X, MNW, etc.

let me know. It sounds like you are a SOS convert based on your comments above.

My opinion on SOS hasn't changed.

My argument was StX did not deserve a preseason #1 ranking BEFORE the season started. They should not be given credit for a tough strength of schedule before the games are played. A team should be given credit for playing and beating tough teams not for scheduling them.

Since StX had a couple of losses in 2006 I don't think they deserved a #1 ranking before the 2007 season started because they hadn't earned it.

After the games are played, StX deserved every high ranking they received. After the games are played they deserved credit for a tough SOS. That was my point.

[WoodyHayes]

At this point X is not a dynasty. They may be a "Regional Powerhouse" but a dynasty they are not. I believe the term gets throwed around to loosely.
DLS has had the run that and the competition that all teams will be measured by from now on.
Independence had a nice run. SLC had a nice run. Does anyone think in the middle of the run that DLS would have lost to Elder this year. No, Notta, Never.

[elwood]

I believe the term [dynasty] gets throwed around to loosely.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[concha]

In the playoff era, which atarted in the early 1970s, there have been two programs in Ohio that have had periods that might be called "dynasties". They are Moeller (roughly 1975-1985) and St. Ignatius (1988-2001, though strongest through 1996). In those periods they both won several Ohio D1 titles (7 and 9, respectively if memory serves) and multiple national poll titles (4 and 3?).

X has nowhere these credentials, let alone in similar timeframes.

[consumerman]

In the playoff era, which atarted in the early 1970s, there have been two programs in Ohio that have had periods that might be called "dynasties". They are Moeller (roughly 1975-1985) and St. Ignatius (1988-2001, though strongest through 1996). In those periods they both won several Ohio D1 titles (7 and 9, respectively if memory serves) and multiple national poll titles (4 and 3?).

X has nowhere these credentials, let alone in similar timeframes.

most of moellers accomplishments were in days where there were only two playoff games )some were as little as one)

that diminishes their accomplishments greatly

[consumerman]

quote from slcdad: I can see why you make statements like this because that is the only way you can prop up the weak schedule that DLS plays almost every year.

note to dad (the man with obsessive jealousy of dls)

dls is 3-0 in games featuring the top two teams in the nation
slc is 0-1 and got beaten every way a team could

so much for slc and their sos

[SLCDad]

most of moellers accomplishments were in days where there were only two playoff games )some were as little as one)

that diminishes their accomplishments greatly

Would you say the same thing about DLS considering they often played only two playoff games, never a state playoff and played a relatively easy schedule?

Seems like a fair comparison. What do you think?

[consumerman]

Would you say the same thing about DLS considering they often played only two playoff games, never a state playoff and played a relatively easy schedule?

Seems like a fair comparison. What do you think?

moeller has 7 state championships and in a mjaority of those played 2 or less playoff games


dls is not making the claim of 7 state championships in 11 years

[concha]

During Moeller's run, they had to play Cincinnati Princeton. Princeton was easily one of the best high school programs in the nation in that era. For example, in "the USA Today" era, from 1982 (USA Today's first poll) to 1987 Princeton ranked #2 in 1983, #21 in 1985 and #11 in 1987. Most of Moeller's national poll titles were from the 70s, and their level of dominance was impressive.

As opposed to DLS, Moe actually did play the in a statewide tournament. In their first two poll title wins, they played 24 games and outscored their opponents 498-78. Forty players graduated in those two years with football scholarships.

In 1982, they beat Anaheim Servite, California's best team. Two Ohio teams played Moe closer that year.

[RockinL]

quote from slcdad:
slc is 0-1 and got beaten every way a team could

so much for slc and their sos

Im not taking sides here, and Im not a SLC supporter, but from what I saw, MNW would have beaten DLS last year also. Maybe not as bad as SLC, but nonetheless.

[Chicago]

In 1978, Moeller lost 13-12 to Princeton in the second game of the season.

The system then was one team per region. Princeton made the playoffs, and won the state championship, and Moeller missed the playoffs.

That loss ended a 37-game winning streak, and the next game began a 45-game winning streak.

While having four teams make the playoffs might have made the playoffs easier, getting there was very difficult.

[elwood]

moeller has 7 state championships and in a mjaority of those played 2 or less playoff games


dls is not making the claim of 7 state championships in 11 years

That is correct.

Instead DLS claims 11 state championships in 12 years.

DLS State Championships (http://www.dlshs.org/webpages/voltattorniB/fall%20sports/football/HistoryPage.cfm)

[pied]

That is correct.

Instead DLS claims 11 state championships in 12 years.

DLS State Championships (http://www.dlshs.org/webpages/voltattorniB/fall%20sports/football/HistoryPage.cfm)

Just so I am clear with this argument.

Moeller is not so good because they played only had to win two state playoff games for 7 championships in 11 years.

DLS is good because they had to play 0 playoff games to claim 11 champinships in 12 years.


Gotcha.

[elwood]

Just so I am clear with this aregument.

Moeller is not so good because they played only had to win two state playoff games for 7 championships in 11 years.

DLS is good because they had to play 0 playoff games to claim 11 champinships in 12 years.


Gotcha. Probably an argument that I would not have pursued...

[pied]

Trying to prove a team from the 70/80's had a tougher run of it than a team from three time zones away 20 years later?

Me neither

[consumerman]

how many playoff games did moeller win in each of their 7 state championships?

champ 1:
champ 2:
champ 3:
champ 4:
champ 5:
champ 6:
champ 7:

and how many playoff games did dls win in each of its playoff runs?

[steeler 01]

In 1982, they beat Anaheim Servite, California's best team. Two Ohio teams played Moe closer that year.

It was also Moeller's 3rd game of the season and Servite's first.

[consumerman]

During Moeller's run, they had to play Cincinnati Princeton. Princeton was easily one of the best high school programs in the nation in that era. For example, in "the USA Today" era, from 1982 (USA Today's first poll) to 1987 Princeton ranked #2 in 1983, #21 in 1985 and #11 in 1987. Most of Moeller's national poll titles were from the 70s, and their level of dominance was impressive.

As opposed to DLS, Moe actually did play the in a statewide tournament. In their first two poll title wins, they played 24 games and outscored their opponents 498-78. Forty players graduated in those two years with football scholarships.

In 1982, they beat Anaheim Servite, California's best team. Two Ohio teams played Moe closer that year.


this is typical concha

dls cant claim to be the best in the state because until 2007, they never won a state championship playoff game

but moeller beat servite in 1982 and servite was hands down the best team in california, even though there was a no state playoffs, is that it concha?

double standard

go smoke another doob

[consumerman]

Just so I am clear with this argument.

Moeller is not so good because they played only had to win two state playoff games for 7 championships in 11 years.

DLS is good because they had to play 0 playoff games to claim 11 champinships in 12 years.


Gotcha.

you are way off by a mile

dls won more playoff games IN THEIR SECTION than Moeller had to win to "win" state

most DLS teams had 3 playoff games every year

most moeller teams had 2 playoff games every year and in some cases ONE!

[consumerman]

Im not taking sides here, and Im not a SLC supporter, but from what I saw, MNW would have beaten DLS last year also. Maybe not as bad as SLC, but nonetheless.

that is what most people said about LB Poly in 2001 and 2002

note DLS never trailed to LB Poly at any point in either game

[consumerman]

DLS in the post season

1982 2-0
1983 0-1
1984 3-0
1985 3-0
1986 3-0
1987 2-1
1988 3-0
1989 3-0
1990 3-0
1991 2-1
1992 3-0
1993 3-0
1994 3-0
1995 3-0
1996 2-0
1997 2-0
1998 2-0
1999 2-0
2000 3-0
2001 3-0
2002 3-0
2003, 2004, 2005 2006 researching
2007 4-0

so much for never winning a playoff game

Most of Moellers seasons were 2 playoff games only
DLS played 3 playoff games every year from 1984 to 1995

[steeler 01]

that is what most people said about LB Poly in 2001 and 2002

note DLS never trailed to LB Poly at any point in either game

Most ppl who just looked at rosters. Not people who seen both teams play.

[WoodyHayes]

most of moellers accomplishments were in days where there were only two playoff games )some were as little as one)

that diminishes their accomplishments greatly I saw some of those teams play and having them play less playoff games saved a lot of schools a bunch of embarrasment. This team was a dynasty.

[consumerman]

I saw some of those teams play and having them play less playoff games saved a lot of schools a bunch of embarrasment. This team was a dynasty.

several of their playoff games were rather low scoring and/or close outcomes

[concha]

this is typical concha

dls cant claim to be the best in the state because until 2007, they never won a state championship playoff game

but moeller beat servite in 1982 and servite was hands down the best team in california, even though there was a no state playoffs, is that it concha?

double standard

go smoke another doob

Wrong again, schiznit for brains.

For many if not most of their undefeated seasons, DLS did not play the other best teams in California, which tend to be located in SoCal.

Moeller did face other face top teams in Ohio and some out-of-state teams also (DLS did not until late in the streak).

How's the weather today in fantasy land?

[concha]

you are way off by a mile

dls won more playoff games IN THEIR SECTION than Moeller had to win to "win" state

most DLS teams had 3 playoff games every year

most moeller teams had 2 playoff games every year and in some cases ONE!

When did a national poll title or state-title winning Moeller team have one playoff game?

[concha]

DLS in the post season

1982 2-0
1983 0-1
1984 3-0
1985 3-0
1986 3-0
1987 2-1
1988 3-0
1989 3-0
1990 3-0
1991 2-1
1992 3-0
1993 3-0
1994 3-0
1995 3-0
1996 2-0
1997 2-0
1998 2-0
1999 2-0
2000 3-0
2001 3-0
2002 3-0
2003, 2004, 2005 2006 researching
2007 4-0

so much for never winning a playoff game

Most of Moellers seasons were 2 playoff games only
DLS played 3 playoff games every year from 1984 to 1995

Who said they never won a playoff game?

[consumerman]

Wrong again, schiznit for brains.

For many if not most of their undefeated seasons, DLS did not play the other best teams in California, which tend to be located in SoCal.

Moeller did face other face top teams in Ohio and some out-of-state teams also (DLS did not until late in the streak).

How's the weather today in fantasy land?

tend to be, based on what?

what makes servite the best team in california in 1982?

what is your proof?

[concha]

tend to be, based on what?

what makes servite the best team in california in 1982?

what is your proof?

Are you denying that apart from DLS, the center of power for high school football is in SoCal?

Hey, California folks, care to weigh in here?


Servite was the highest ranked team in California that year, despite their loss to Moe. I find it ironic that the lack of a statewide playoff system in California isn't allowed to affect DLS, but now you use it to cast doubt on Servite.

[concha]

several of their playoff games were rather low scoring and/or close outcomes

In their state title and national title years, there were few if any playoff games that were at all close.


What are you doing? Throwing as much crap at the wall as possible to see what will stick?

BTW, from '75-'79 Moeller played two playoff games. Starting in 1980 that changed to three and then in 1985 it was four.


Embarrassment.

Full of crap.

But consistent.

[consumerman]

Are you denying that apart from DLS, the center of power for high school football isn't in SoCal?

Hey, California folks, care to weigh in here?


Servite was the highest ranked team in California that year, despite their loss to Moe. I find it ironic that the lack of a statewide playoff system in California isn't allowed to affect DLS, but now you use it to cast doubt on Servite.

ranked by who?

what san diego area school champ did they beat?
what ccs power did they beat?
what north coast section power (BTW DLS was undefeated that year) did they beat?
what san joaquin section champ did they beat?
what sacramanet area power did they beat?


oh an opinionated ranking, that's it

that is your proof that servite was unquestionably the best team in california????

bTW ST X was rated 5th by USA Today in 2005, do you agree with that ranking?

[concha]

Sounds like none of DLS's national #1s count for anything. All opinion.

I don't really care about X getting #5 in 2005. Colerain should have had the national #1 in 2004, however. IMHO, of course.

[consumerman]

In their state title and national title years, there were few if any playoff games that were at all close.

here is my research

first in the period 1975-1985 moeller did NOT win 7 state championships
they played in 7 title games (big deal, means they won one playof game to get there in most years)

they went 6-1, which means in 4 years they couldnt even win one playoff game

1975 won despite scoring only 14 points (14-12)
1976 won
1977 won (despite scoring only 14 points)
1978 NOT THERE
1979 NOT THERE
1980 won
1981 LOST (shutout)
1982 won
1983 NOT THERE
1984 NOT THERE
1985 won

in the Faust years Moeller either did not make it or scored 14 points or fewer or lost 4 of 6 years

DLS went from 1990 to 2001 never scoring less than 21 points

2 impressive wins in 6 years and that does not consider any of their first round games

moeller dominated?

care to think that one again?

[consumerman]

so you still think servite was without a doubt the #1 team in california in 1982?

based on an opinionated ranking (and the first year attempting to do that)?

[concha]

so you still think servite was without a doubt the #1 team in california in 1982?

based on an opinionated ranking (and the first year attempting to do that)?

I think that's where they were ranked. If you have better information, do tell. Call Beuerlein, maybe he can help.

[consumerman]

I think that's where they were ranked. If you have better information, do tell. Call Beuerlein, maybe he can help.

so oyou stand by an opinionated ranking as your proof

same old concha

yes socal has more football teams and overall is better

that does not meet the BEST team is ALWAYS from Socal as was proven in 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002 etc

BTW Mater Dei was ranked #1 by USA Today in 1994 and 1996

they were ranked BELOW DLS in state polls those years

don't forget LA is a big market and ranking a team highly out there sells newspapers

[consumerman]

I think that's where they were ranked. If you have better information, do tell. Call Beuerlein, maybe he can help.

I personally saw ST Francis in 1982 manhandle Bellarmine (state #1 team ranked in 1981) twice

they were undefeated

who says they would lose to servite?

[concha]

In their state title and national title years, there were few if any playoff games that were at all close.

here is my research

first in the period 1975-1985 moeller did NOT win 7 state championships
they played in 7 title games (big deal, means they won one playof game to get there in most years)

they went 6-1, which means in 4 years they couldnt even win one playoff game

1975 won despite scoring only 14 points (14-12) [Ever hear of defense?]
1976 won [Yes, by an an average of 41-3. 7/12 shutouts]
1977 won (despite scoring only 14 points) [Versus on of the winningest programs in the country who gave up 4-5 ppg on avg. Defense.]
1978 NOT THERE [Lost by one to eventual state champion Princeton]
1979 NOT THERE [Ohio D1 Champions & National Poll Champions]
1980 won
1981 LOST (shutout) [To Canton McKinley. McKinley gave up 32 points all year and 9 of 13 games were shutouts. Considered one of the best defenses in Ohio high school history]
1982 won
1983 NOT THERE [Traded 28-21 games with National #2 Princeton. Unfortunately for Moe, they lost the 2nd of them]
1984 NOT THERE
1985 won

in the Faust years Moeller either did not make it or scored 14 points or fewer or lost 4 of 6 years

DLS went from 1990 to 2001 never scoring less than 21 points

2 impressive wins in 6 years and that does not consider any of their first round games

moeller dominated?

care to think that one again?

From 1975 - 1985:

7 Ohio D1 titles

5 national poll titles

In one year they lost by one to champion Princeton (from their region, BTW)

In another year they traded games with eventual champion and USA Today national #2 Princeton.


This while playing in a statewide tournament and having another of the best teams in the country just a few miles away. Not to mention the likes of Massillon and McKinley from Northeastern Ohio, two of the legendary programs of high school football in the nation. Yet they lost just five games in 11 years, one of which was actually forfeited later on as the other team used ineligible players.


Anyone who saw those Moeller teams play (and I did) would tell you they were a dynasty. In those years their lowest scholie player turnout was 14 and they had 27 seniors get scholies on their 1982 team (they had 24 in '79 and '81).

[concha]

I personally saw ST Francis in 1982 manhandle Bellarmine (state #1 team ranked in 1981) twice

they were undefeated

who says they would lose to servite?

The guy at USA Today, I guess. If you don't think Servite was the best, then more power to you. I couldn't care less.

[consumerman]

From 1975 - 1985:

7 Ohio D1 titles

5 national poll titles

In one year they lost by one to champion Princeton (from their region, BTW)

In another year they traded games with eventual champion and USA Today national #2 Princeton.


This while playing in a statewide tournament and having another of the best teams in the country just a few miles away. Not to mention the likes of Massillon and McKinley from Northeastern Ohio, two of the legendary programs of high school football in the nation. Yet they lost just five games in 11 years, one of which was actually forfeited later on as the other team used ineligible players.


Anyone who saw those Moeller teams play (and I did) would tell you they were a dynasty. In those years their lowest scholie player turnout was 14 and they had 27 seniors get scholies on their 1982 team (they had 24 in '79 and '81).


please name the years

the source I have says six (see above where I went year by year 1975-85, my guess would be 1979)

[concha]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946435,00.html

From back in the day.

Ohio State Champions:
75
76 + Nat'l Poll Champ
77 + Nat'l Poll Champ
79 + Nat'l Poll Champ
80 + Nat'l Poll Champ
82 + Nat'l Poll Champ
85

[steeler 01]

so oyou stand by an opinionated ranking as your proof

same old concha

yes socal has more football teams and overall is better

that does not meet the BEST team is ALWAYS from Socal as was proven in 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002 etc

BTW Mater Dei was ranked #1 by USA Today in 1994 and 1996

they were ranked BELOW DLS in state polls those years

don't forget LA is a big market and ranking a team highly out there sells newspapers
Even though I believe DLS was the best team in 2002. They didn't beat the best team in SoCal. They beat a Poly team that lost to Mater Dei in the semi's. Mater Dei went on to get crushed by Los Al in the finals.

[WoodyHayes]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946435,00.html

From back in the day.

Ohio State Champions:
75
76 + Nat'l Poll Champ
77 + Nat'l Poll Champ
79 + Nat'l Poll Champ
80 + Nat'l Poll Champ
82 + Nat'l Poll Champ
85 I can not speak about the Cali teams at the time, but I have never saw teams that were as good as Moeller before or since. I remember watching them warm up and even the kicker was nailing 50 yarders. People would have just had to see it to get the full effect. Its hard to describe it in words.

[concha]

I can not speak about the Cali teams at the time, but I have never saw teams that were as good as Moeller before or since. I remember watching them warm up and even the kicker was nailing 50 yarders. People would have just had to see it to get the full effect. Its hard to describe it in words.

I remember being in the stands and hearing parents from the opposing team saying things like "They shouldn't let them play high school teams". They even had ultra-cool unis.



You may enjoy this, Woody. A video report by Pete Rose about Moeller football from 1982. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the other guy in the opening sequence, he is Nick Clooney, father of George Clooney and the brother of the famous singer Rosemary Clooney.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9jX__ZzZT0U&feature=related

[Nomad777]

I seem toremember a small school in michigan in the 70s who had 72straight wins during a 9 year span and they played anyone who wanted to play them i belive the name of the school was Hudson. Has anyone heard of them or am i mistaken

[elwood]

I seem toremember a small school in michigan in the 70s who had 72straight wins during a 9 year span and they played anyone who wanted to play them i belive the name of the school was Hudson. Has anyone heard of them or am i mistakenYes, you are correct. It was Hudson's record that DLS eclipsed in the 90's.

[RockinL]

I can not speak about the Cali teams at the time, but I have never saw teams that were as good as Moeller before or since. I remember watching them warm up and even the kicker was nailing 50 yarders. People would have just had to see it to get the full effect. Its hard to describe it in words.

The 1999 Shreveport Evangel team was beyond awesome.

I also remember reading about those Ohio teams back in the day. Moeller was def one of the all time greats.

[Jesse]

From 1975 - 1985:

7 Ohio D1 titles

5 national poll titles

In one year they lost by one to champion Princeton (from their region, BTW)

In another year they traded games with eventual champion and USA Today national #2 Princeton.


This while playing in a statewide tournament and having another of the best teams in the country just a few miles away. Not to mention the likes of Massillon and McKinley from Northeastern Ohio, two of the legendary programs of high school football in the nation. Yet they lost just five games in 11 years, one of which was actually forfeited later on as the other team used ineligible players.


Anyone who saw those Moeller teams play (and I did) would tell you they were a dynasty. In those years their lowest scholie player turnout was 14 and they had 27 seniors get scholies on their 1982 team (they had 24 in '79 and '81).


The Faust led Moeller teams I saw were the best combination of coaching, talent, and discipline I have yet to see on the gridiron, keeping in context with the times of course. And yes, Pat Mancuso had Princeton playing at an incredible level during the same time period. (Where does the time go?) Elder, Upper Arlington, Centerville, and many others were no walks in the park in the late 70's
DLS's accomplishments are numerically superior than Moellers.But be fair, DLS's playoffs between 99-2004, were merely scrimmages. Their sterner tests usually being held in the first 5 weeks. DLS had less worry about attrition, or perhaps playing a team on a hot streak, or a resurgent Poly or Buchanan in say 01' while injuries are adding up on their side. The strength and weight program was built around a peak at week 5 and 13. And their accomplishments are mind certainly mindboggling. Maybe though playing in a scrupulously organized playoff system, designed to match the best programs from all over the state, the chances of DLS slipping up maybe increases. Yes I believe Moeller had a tougher challenge week to week, on the field as well as dealing with media frenzy. By dominating Ohio's big school division to such an extent, and routing champions from football proud states such as Texas, Penn, Mich, plus Monsigor Farrell out of Staten Island, and DeMatha, Moeller gained a national reputation far earlier in their dynasty period than DLS. National spotlight from 76' on. Under the microscope was Moeller. Really, until DLS whipped Mated Dei,nobody outside of NorCal took them seriously. Who was the better or bigger program? All things being equal ( remember Moeller spared no expense, 1st class in everything) I believe Moeller ran a more sophisticated program. Even in those pre-internet days, the casual sports fan was familier with Moeller. Moe garnered television coverage on nearly every major sports program as well as many other shows of varying type. Oh and yeah, the offensive line exploded off the ball just like DLS, only with bigger guys:) I don't believe Ohio HS football has the competitivness from the public schools now than during that time period. Outside of the GCL, Moeller coming to your town to play your boys was an event! ( See Centerville 1980) From 75-80 they were more dominant on a state and national stage than any hs football team ever.

[pied]

By dominating Ohio's big school division to such an extent, and routing champions from football proud states such as Texas, Penn, Mich, plus Monsigor Farrell out of Staten Island, and DeMatha, Moeller gained a national reputation far earlier in their dynasty period than DLS.

huh?

[consumerman]

just curious if moeller ever defeated the #1 ranked team in the country as de las salle did in 2001 (despite the loss they still finished #3 in the nation)

just curious if moeller ever defeated a team that finished the season as the #2 ranked team in the country as dls did in 1998

moeller became a power circa 15 years after faust began coaching

de la salle had an undefeated championship in coach lad's fourth season

they had a 44 game win streak starting in coach lad's sixth season

they had a 34 game win streak started in coach lad's tenth season

they started a 151 game win streak in coach lad's 14th season

I would say the premise that moeller under faust established themselves prominently much faster than dls is not established by real facts

[consumerman]

DLS's playoffs between 99-2004, were merely scrimmages

ask michigan about dennis dixon

who is dennis dixon? he only played on a team that went undefeated three straight years,... except for getting smashed by dls in the section final

scrimmage?


get real

[consumerman]

Maybe though playing in a scrupulously organized playoff system, designed to match the best programs from all over the state, the chances of DLS slipping up maybe increases

california is MUCH larger than ohio

to ask dls to compete in a full state playoff would be equal to moeller having to win (more than a piddly two games) in ohio (say 5) then having another two games with champions from other states

you need several states plus ohip to equal the population of california

PS
california hasnt fared too badly against ohio teams in the herbie

that isnt a far fetched opinion

but on the field results

[consumerman]

Really, until DLS whipped Mated Dei,nobody outside of NorCal took them seriously


the first game was in 1998

DLS was ranked in USA Today's year end poll in 1985, 13 years prior

DLS was ranked in USA Today final top ten in 1988, 10 years prior

DLS was ranked #3 in USA Today's final top ten poll in 1992, 6 years prior

DLS won the National Prep Poll Championship in 1994, 4 years earlier


once again your biased ohio opinion did not look at facts before trying to make moeller look better than dls

do some research next time

[consumerman]

From 75-80 they were more dominant on a state and national stage than any hs football team ever.

beyond ludicrous

dls had a 151 game win streak for 12 years and were named a national #1 by at least 1 poll in 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003. In 1996 they were ranked second to Mater Dei, which incidentally was ranked BELOW DLS in state polls.

moeller had 4 excellent years in 6 years

that does not come close to comparing what dls did over 12 years or even just between 1998 and 2003

once again opinions for you, facts for dls

[vnerone02]

everyone knows delasalle won more consecutive games than any other school in the country. they just didnt play as hard a schedule as moeller did

[consumerman]

everyone knows delasalle won more consecutive games than any other school in the country. they just didnt play as hard a schedule as moeller did

when did moeller play the #1 ranked team in the country?

[vnerone02]

was cleveland st. ignatius #1 in 1993, they lost to colerain in 04 when they should have been #1, lost to st.x last year and some polls had x at #1. Plus playing the number 1 team in the country doesnt mean you have a harder schedule than everyone else. look at cincy st.x this past year, they beat colerain and trinity who finished 14 and 23 nationally, they demolished dematha when they were 3, and the hardest game was against st.ignatius- unranked

[consumerman]

was cleveland st. ignatius #1 in 1993, they lost to colerain in 04 when they should have been #1, lost to st.x last year and some polls had x at #1. Plus playing the number 1 team in the country doesnt mean you have a harder schedule than everyone else. look at cincy st.x this past year, they beat colerain and trinity who finished 14 and 23 nationally, they demolished dematha when they were 3, and the hardest game was against st.ignatius- unranked

so your long winded answer is a fancy way of saying NO, Moeller has never beat the #1 team in the country

PS de matha scored 7 points on a losing team last year (winning 7-6)
a preseason top 5 ranking means nothing when the season proves you are not very good

heck dls was rated #1 to start 2004 and started the season 2-3-2

should dls claim a #1 ranking in 2004?

dls has played the #1 ranked team in the country (who came in to the game with 1 loss in their last 60 games) and beat them handily

moeller has no such accomplishment

[concha]

Only 5 posts in a row in the last frenzy. It must be carpal tunnel. Get checked out.

[Jesse]

huh?


Dallas-Jesuit, Pittsburgh-Penn Hills, Detroit- Brother Rice, any of those names ring a bell ? I know DJ was in TAPPS at the time but was still TAPP's CHAMPS!And DJ was considered a renegade program in the DFW area.

[concha]

Given the time it happened, access to information about Moeller opponents is not nearly as accessible (if it even exists on the web at all).

What is your point here, consumerman? That Moeller wasn't a dynasty?

Moeller won 5 national poll titles and 7 Ohio D1 titles in 11 years. Ohio D1 is considered easily one of the toughest classifications in the nation. They had to face one of the strongest programs in the country just a few miles away in Princeton (let alone the likes of Massillon and McKinley from up north). They were playing out-of-state teams. They averaged 15-20 scholarships per year, two All-Americans per year, several All-Ohios every year....


Nobody is saying DLS wasn't a dynasty. What's your problem?

[concha]

Dallas-Jesuit, Pittsburgh-Penn Hills, Detroit- Brother Rice, any of those names ring a bell ? I know DJ was in TAPPS at the time but was still TAPP's CHAMPS!And DJ was considered a renegade program in the DFW area.

Dallas Jesuit isn't much to talk about if recent years are any indication. I'm not sure the private schools in texas have ever really been pre-eminent there.

[Chicago]

This is awesome.

Moeller beat Penn Hills 30-13 in 1979, and Penn Hills was still ranked as the third-best team in the WPIAL (a huge Pittsburgh league that is more like a California section than a regular league, as I understand it) for the period 1974-1998.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports_headlines/19990919hsteams7.asp

The teams ahead of them on the list ranked 1st and 5th in USA Today, and the team tied with them ranked 5th.

That was before the USA Today rankings, but if it means they beat a team by 17 that would still have ended up about 5th in the USA Today rankings, despite the loss, that's pretty good.

[concha]

This is awesome.

Moeller beat Penn Hills 30-13 in 1979, and Penn Hills was still ranked as the third-best team in the WPIAL (a huge Pittsburgh league that is more like a California section than a regular league, as I understand it) for the period 1974-1998.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports_headlines/19990919hsteams7.asp

The teams ahead of them on the list ranked 1st and 5th in USA Today, and the team tied with them ranked 5th.

That was before the USA Today rankings, but if it means they beat a team by 17 that would still have ended up about 5th in the USA Today rankings, despite the loss, that's pretty good.

Chi-town:

That's a great find. I didn't realize how big the WPIAL is until I looked over on calpreps. Huge organization. As you say, not really a league at all.

The following names jumped out at me:

Aliquippa

Central Catholic

Gateway

North Hills

Penn Hills

Woodland Hills

Upper St. Clair

McKeesport

North Allegheny

Even Jeanette....


It's like a majority of the Who's Who of heavy hitters in Pennsylvania high school football.

I found at least nine WPIAL members that have hit the USA Today Top 25 over the years.

[consumerman]

so the third best team in a pennsylvania league is in the top 5 teams in the country?

huh?

[pied]

Dallas-Jesuit, Pittsburgh-Penn Hills, Detroit- Brother Rice, any of those names ring a bell ? I know DJ was in TAPPS at the time but was still TAPP's CHAMPS!And DJ was considered a renegade program in the DFW area.

Dallas Jesuit was considered the homecoming opponent in the DFW area.

Moeller may be the greatest ever, but using the fact they beat Dallas Jesuit is not as big of a feather as you may think.

[consumerman]

B]Nobody is saying DLS wasn't a dynasty. What's your problem?[/B]

if you actually took time to read the thread progression instead of being a troublemaking troll just arguing ohio is better than everybody (as you always do) then you would see that someone posted a bunch of opinions about moeller and dls that real facts do not back up

EXAMPLE "nobody oustide norcal thought highly of dls until they beat mater dei (in 1998)" seems an odd statement as DLS ws ranked in USA Today final poll as early as 1985 and in the top ten 1988, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997

got it troll?

[Chicago]

Consumerman,

They picked 1979 Penn Hills as the third-best team of all the WPIAL teams from 1974 through 1998.

[vnerone02]

im pretty sure we can all agree that delasalle is a dynasty, they won 1oo+ games in a row

[Jesse]

This is awesome.

Moeller beat Penn Hills 30-13 in 1979, and Penn Hills was still ranked as the third-best team in the WPIAL (a huge Pittsburgh league that is more like a California section than a regular league, as I understand it) for the period 1974-1998.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports_headlines/19990919hsteams7.asp

The teams ahead of them on the list ranked 1st and 5th in USA Today, and the team tied with them ranked 5th.

That was before the USA Today rankings, but if it means they beat a team by 17 that would still have ended up about 5th in the USA Today rankings, despite the loss, that's pretty good.


Penn Hills was coached by Andy Urbanic and was a darn good team.Team leader was Bill Fralic, who stated after the game that Moeller was the best team he had played against and I quote "The best team I will ever play against". Urbanic was equally stunned. "Those weren't exactly creampuffs they were pushing around".

[Jesse]

Dallas Jesuit was considered the homecoming opponent in the DFW area.

Moeller may be the greatest ever, but using the fact they beat Dallas Jesuit is not as big of a feather as you may think.http://community-2.webtv.net/SEKSPORTS/HIGHSCHOOLCOMM/page9.html

Check the link, between 74 and 82 DJ bagged about 4 titles. Some homecoming opp.I know TAPPS isn't the UIL, but remember this, they called Moeller! And were hammered 37-7. 31-0 at halftime. Faust played the waterboys.

[Jesse]

im pretty sure we can all agree that delasalle is a dynasty, they won 1oo+ games in a row


That is not in dispute. What is argueable is that there were "other" dynasties pre-dating DLS's rise to national prominence. Some people here seem to believe DLS invented the football.

[Jesse]

DLS's playoffs between 99-2004, were merely scrimmages

ask michigan about dennis dixon

who is dennis dixon? he only played on a team that went undefeated three straight years,... except for getting smashed by dls in the section final

scrimmage?


get real


San Leandro "knew" they couldn't beat DLS! I have relatives who were invlolved with Monte Vista during this time period and was fortunate to see DLS several times during the streak.Easily the best team of the modern era. And the comp in NorCal is underrated. Even the late Nelson Tennis questioned whether DLS could have sustained a streak of such duration if California had a playoff system similar to Texas or Ohio. And not because DLS wasn't probably the best team. But that attrition or a 95% game could more likely occur when playing teams less frequently seen over a 15 or 16 game season. I believe California is competitive enough so that if DLS had to "run the gauntlet" the streak might not have hit 151. Many close to the program would not have wanted another duel with Poly in 2001 and have been quoted in various books and news articles saying so.Shoot DLS might would have blistered Poly by half a hundred 11 weeks later.Or maybe in a rematch the athletes play with more composure? Still would have loved to see them hook it up at the end of 2001 after vanquishing everyone else. The more games you play, and against steller teams, the greater chance of a loss. And it's tough to beat a great team twice in a season.

[Nomad777]

The real problem I see is that no one wants to admit that there just might be a chance that there have been several dynasties throughout the years and the only way to decide who is the best is to have them play each other. (that will never happen) so continue to argue online, it really makes my day reading all this stuff

[Jesse]

The real problem I see is that no one wants to admit that there just might be a chance that there have been several dynasties throughout the years and the only way to decide who is the best is to have them play each other. (that will never happen) so continue to argue online, it really makes my day reading all this stuff

Look at the positive.At least we don't have to talk about soccer:cool:

[Nomad777]

Amen Brother

[steeler 01]

That is not in dispute. What is argueable is that there were "other" dynasties pre-dating DLS's rise to national prominence. Some people here seem to believe DLS invented the football.

Some or one person?

[vnerone02]

Look at the positive.At least we don't have to talk about soccer:cool:

get that "s" word outta here

[pied]

http://community-2.webtv.net/SEKSPORTS/HIGHSCHOOLCOMM/page9.html

Check the link, between 74 and 82 DJ bagged about 4 titles. Some homecoming opp.I know TAPPS isn't the UIL, but remember this, they called Moeller! And were hammered 37-7. 31-0 at halftime. Faust played the waterboys.

The largest TAPPS schools football teams would be competitve in 3A. Back in the 70's/80's I'd guess they would be comparable to a 2A/A level in Texas. That would out them in the D4/D5 range in Ohio I think.

You CANNOT compare privates schools in Texas with other states.

[RockinL]

As good as Moeller was during the Faust years, citing Dallas Jesuit as one of their great victories isnt a great accomplishment.

[RockinL]

http://community-2.webtv.net/SEKSPORTS/HIGHSCHOOLCOMM/page9.html

And were hammered 37-7. 31-0 at halftime. Faust played the waterboys.

The same thing Longview and many other Texas public schools have done to them.

[WoodyHayes]

I got the privelege of watching the Moeller teams. They were fantastic. I did not get to see the DLS teams but the record explains it all. I have no problem going on record saying that Moe was a dynasty and would have handed the Southlake Carroll teams of the last few years their azzes in a handbasket. These guys were unbelievably good.

[Nomad777]

My vote still goes for Hudson. Small but mighty team from a town of 1500 people who played anybody that wanted to play. Now thats a real accomplishment. No big city recruitment, just a small pool of farm boys to draw from. Well coached and fundamentally sound public team. You big city boys think about that before you start spouting off about all your great accomplishments and padded statistics.:grouphug:

[TrojanHorse03]

I got the privelege of watching the Moeller teams. They were fantastic. I did not get to see the DLS teams but the record explains it all. I have no problem going on record saying that Moe was a dynasty and would have handed the Southlake Carroll teams of the last few years their azzes in a handbasket. These guys were unbelievably good.

I respectfully disagree.

[fish82]

I got the privelege of watching the Moeller teams. They were fantastic. I did not get to see the DLS teams but the record explains it all. I have no problem going on record saying that Moe was a dynasty and would have handed the Southlake Carroll teams of the last few years their azzes in a handbasket. These guys were unbelievably good.

I don't know that they would have handed them their azzes so to speak.....but they would have won more than they lost, that's for sure.

[pied]

I don't know that they would have handed them their azzes so to speak.....but they would have won more than they lost, that's for sure.

This is interesting.

I'd go with the Dragons for a couple of reasons. I don't know for certain, but I'd guess that SLC throws the ball about as many times in one game that Moeller saw in an entire year. These days, there are plenty of teams running 4 wide, but I don't think Moeller would be ready for the no huddle crisp routes SLC would trot out there.

Moeller was probalby big, but I don't know that they would be significantly bigger/stronger than many teams now. I think you could make a compelling arguement w/all the strength training etc. that they might be considerably behind a '00-'07 team.

[Chicago]

The style of play and the size and strength of current teams would probably give them an advantage over teams from the 70s.

But then you might as well say that all of the Moeller guys are in their late 40s, too, which wouldn't help.

I don't know if anyone has ever dominated for a period of time like the Moeller teams did, with the quite possible exception of the DLS teams.

SLC is a team that won several state championships in a row in one of the largest divisions of a good football state. That happens a lot.

Moeller was a step beyond that -- five titles in six years, six titles in eight years, 12 undefeated regular seasons in a row (I believe), five National Championships, numerous wins against out-of-state teams (several of them the best, or very close to the best, in their own state).

DLS, other than the state championships, has done much the same thing.

SLC, at this point, is a step below that.

[fish82]

This is interesting.

I'd go with the Dragons for a couple of reasons. I don't know for certain, but I'd guess that SLC throws the ball about as many times in one game that Moeller saw in an entire year. These days, there are plenty of teams running 4 wide, but I don't think Moeller would be ready for the no huddle crisp routes SLC would trot out there.

Moeller was probalby big, but I don't know that they would be significantly bigger/stronger than many teams now. I think you could make a compelling arguement w/all the strength training etc. that they might be considerably behind a '00-'07 team.

Oh, absolutely. Moe was very strong and well-conditioned for their era...Faust pioneered weight training in Ohio for HS football, and I'd imagine he'd be considered at least a partial trend setter on a national level as well. Of course, there's no way they'd be quite as strong as the top teams of today. As far as pass defense..... Moe ran the Pro-I (if memory serves) and did their share of passing... so they would at least have practiced against it on some level.

There's really no way to explain how dominant they were. Like Woody said....ya had to be there.

That being said, I do admit to being an Ohio homer. :)

[pied]

I am not comapring dynasties, maybe in a couple of years if SLC rips off a few more, I am simply saying who I think would win in a head to head matchup.

SLC is not known for being a big team , but I'd bet they would compare favorably to most teams of the 70's/80's. Of course in that time frame I would defintely want to test for steroids(see Steelers).

[pied]

Looking at the passing receiving records ont he OHSAA site I see that no Moeller QB passed for at least 30 td's in a year and no WR ever has had at least 11 td catches in a year.

In fact almost all the passing records were from the late 90's to 00's which is pretty much like everywhere else. So I will stand by my statement that the Moeller db's would probably be scratchig their heads. Granted they would have knocked the snot out of Luna/Newton a time or two, but I still like the Dragons in this one.

[Chicago]

Roger Staubach played in the GCL, by the way, at Purcell.

Here's a neat article:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946435-2,00.html

[pied]

Says Faust: "I can tell a boy that if he gets good grades and he's 6 ft. 2 in. and plays on the offensive line, we can almost guarantee him a scholarship."

Give me the Dragons by 21....

[Chicago]

He meant a scholarship to Texas A&M (I will admit that the "good grades" part is confusing).

He didn't mean the kid could go anywhere he wanted to.

[consumerman]

how many games did moeller play agaisnt top notch competition from other states?


how many times was moeller the home team?

how many times did they travel 400 miles or more and play an away game?

[consumerman]

Give me the Dragons by 21....

really?


and what is the score 49-28?
21-0?

[Chicago]

I admit it's possible to travel 400 miles and play a home game (200 out and 200 back), but why would anyone do that?

[pied]

really?


and what is the score 49-28?
21-0?

Both of those would work and be 21 point victories.

My thought is that SLC would be able to score a lot so give me 45-24. I think Moe definitely scores some points though.

[consumerman]

Both of those would work and be 21 point victories.

My thought is that SLC would be able to score a lot so give me 45-24. I think Moe definitely scores some points though.

i think one year moe gave up 43 points all year

I dont think slc scores 21 points

[Chicago]

I didn't feel like tracking everything down, but here are the all-time Ohio semifinal and final results:

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/history/FT/state_results.htm

Moeller allowed:
34 in a loss
20 in a loss

Then the roll began:
16 and 12 in wins
0 and 5 in wins
14 and 2 in wins
7 and 7 in wins
0 and 7 in wins
13 in a loss
0 and 14 in wins

And then three years later:
10 and 11 in wins

These are Ohio big-school semifinals and finals.

And in the only regular season loss between 1973 and 1984, they allowed 13 to the eventual state champion.

I think if SLC were to score 45, they'd have to play 10-15 quarters.

[pied]

Again, I'd take the SLC offense throwing the ball as many times in one quarter as they saw all year long. Heck, I'll bet the Moe DB's never saw a WR line up not in a three point stance. They would spend a half trying to figure out where the TE was.

[consumerman]

and then there is dls who went 10 seasons (1992-2001) never scoring less than 21 points in any game

oh by the way
they did not lose any either

[Chicago]

I'm guessing that when you're up by 40 in the 4th quarter almost all the time, you're not seeing a lot of wishbone.

[consumerman]

Again, I'd take the SLC offense throwing the ball as many times in one quarter as they saw all year long. Heck, I'll bet the Moe DB's never saw a WR line up not in a three point stance. They would spend a half trying to figure out where the TE was.

4 wide receiver works agaisnt texas (no d in texas) teams

the qb might not get out of the first quarter against a team with a pre-eminent defense

give it up pied

slc is not in the top echelon of dynasties

heck they are not even a dynasty

[Jesse]

Looking at the passing receiving records ont he OHSAA site I see that no Moeller QB passed for at least 30 td's in a year and no WR ever has had at least 11 td catches in a year.

In fact almost all the passing records were from the late 90's to 00's which is pretty much like everywhere else. So I will stand by my statement that the Moeller db's would probably be scratchig their heads. Granted they would have knocked the snot out of Luna/Newton a time or two, but I still like the Dragons in this one.


Playing by the rules of then or now? Before the introduction of the bump rule? Or under the rules where offensive linemen could not extend their hands? Were Rice and Taylor really better than Swan and Stallworth? Rules governing the passing game have made football life MUCH easier physically for recievers. And fat, wide bellied linemen. When comparing eras these rulings should be taken into context. They have had the largest impact on the changing of the game from run-play defense, to a basketball on grass nature. If SLC's linemen could not push off, or extend their arms, their offensive philosophy most likely changes.Go ahead send 4 over the middle. Pre bump rule it's open season!And recievers are target # 1. Of course if you are too young to remember fooball when defenses had a little bit of an advantage then what I just wrote means nothing . In that case look into Jack Tatum, Thom Darden, Mel Blount, Johnny Sample, George Atkinson, and some others. And remember that high school and college recievers and backs endured the same abuse.

[Jesse]

I didn't feel like tracking everything down, but here are the all-time Ohio semifinal and final results:

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/history/FT/state_results.htm

Moeller allowed:
34 in a loss
20 in a loss

Then the roll began:
16 and 12 in wins
0 and 5 in wins
14 and 2 in wins
7 and 7 in wins
0 and 7 in wins
13 in a loss
0 and 14 in wins

And then three years later:
10 and 11 in wins

These are Ohio big-school semifinals and finals.

And in the only regular season loss between 1973 and 1984, they allowed 13 to the eventual state champion.

I think if SLC were to score 45, they'd have to play 10-15 quarters.


And dress out 15 or 20 wideouts:)

[St.X fan2]

I don't like Moeller but there is no way the Moeller teams of the 70s and early 80s give up 45 points to any team. They had their way with teams in that era and beat many good teams in Ohio as well as some good out of state teams. They probably didn't play any teams that throw as much as SLC but Moe didn't just win against teams that mostly run the ball. Steve Beurlein was the qb for Servite which is the CA team that Moeller beat back in the day. Considering that Beurlein made it to the NFL, that team must have had a decent passing attack. I didn't start following HS football until the early 80s but I did see Moe play several times back then and they were very impressive. They were so good that people accused them of recruiting and some fans complained that it wasn't fair that teams had to play Moeller since Moeller was so dominant then. A fair amount of people consider the 76 Moe team to be the best team ever in Ohio history. They basically steamrolled every team they played and hardly gave up any points that year.

[consumerman]

I don't like Moeller but there is no way the Moeller teams of the 70s and early 80s give up 45 points to any team. They had their way with teams in that era and beat many good teams in Ohio as well as some good out of state teams. They probably didn't play any teams that throw as much as SLC but Moe didn't just win against teams that mostly run the ball. Steve Beurlein was the qb for Servite which is the CA team that Moeller beat back in the day. Considering that Beurlein made it to the NFL, that team must have had a decent passing attack. I didn't start following HS football until the early 80s but I did see Moe play several times back then and they were very impressive. They were so good that people accused them of recruiting and some fans complained that it wasn't fair that teams had to play Moeller since Moeller was so dominant then. A fair amount of people consider the 76 Moe team to be the best team ever in Ohio history. They basically steamrolled every team they played and hardly gave up any points that year.

how many times in all the games moeller played out of state schools did they travel?

how many games did they travel at least 400 miles?

[WoodyHayes]

I am not comapring dynasties, maybe in a couple of years if SLC rips off a few more, I am simply saying who I think would win in a head to head matchup.

SLC is not known for being a big team , but I'd bet they would compare favorably to most teams of the 70's/80's. Of course in that time frame I would defintely want to test for steroids(see Steelers). Moeller would have kept the ball and ran it right down SLC's throat. SLC would not have been on the field playing offense for long. MNW put a physical beatdown on the Dragons. This was the most lopsided 8 point loss in history. Moeller would have bloodied this team and created a bunch of turnovers. Being a neutral, unbiased observer, it would get ugly for the boys in green.

[St.X fan2]

how many times in all the games moeller played out of state schools did they travel?

how many games did they travel at least 400 miles?


I don't know that off the top of my head but Ohio had traveling restrictions in HS football for many years (contiguous state rule). That is why when Ohio teams play out of state teams it is usually against teams from PA, MI, KY, or IN. I don't think Moe was allowed to travel 400 miles due to that rule. I never claimed that Moe was the best dynasty ever but they were very impressive in that era of the 70s and 80s. I know they didn't play as many playoff games back then but the same could be said about the undefeated 72 Dolphins in the NFL. They didn't have to win as many playoff games either back in the 70s but they are still regarded as one of the best NFL teams ever. Moe didn't have to win as many playoff games but their title teams of the 70s are among the best ever in Ohio.

[TrojanHorse03]

More dominant run? Moeller over Southlake right now.
Head to Head on the field? Give me Southlake over Moeller.

[Chicago]

Why is SLC even part of the question?

Moeller had one of the greatest runs of all time, and 1976 Moeller was one of the greatest teams of all time. And the run and the 1976 team might have each been the greatest ever.

If you want to compare Moeller to a great contemporary run, compare them to DLS.

If you want to compare 1976 Moeller to a great contemporary team, compare them to 1999 DLS (or whatever their best team was) or 2004 Colerain or 2007 St. Xavier or 2007 MNW.

Moeller between 1975 and 1982 lost only to two eventual state champions. I think they would have handled Abilene.

I don't know how 1976 Moeller would have done against 2007 MNW, but I know who would have won between 2007 MNW and 2007 SLC.

[consumerman]

I don't know that off the top of my head but Ohio had traveling restrictions in HS football for many years (contiguous state rule). That is why when Ohio teams play out of state teams it is usually against teams from PA, MI, KY, or IN. I don't think Moe was allowed to travel 400 miles due to that rule. I never claimed that Moe was the best dynasty ever but they were very impressive in that era of the 70s and 80s. I know they didn't play as many playoff games back then but the same could be said about the undefeated 72 Dolphins in the NFL. They didn't have to win as many playoff games either back in the 70s but they are still regarded as one of the best NFL teams ever. Moe didn't have to win as many playoff games but their title teams of the 70s are among the best ever in Ohio.

Moeller was fantastic but as you noted, they played very few post season games each year

and it seems as if they were willing to take on out of state competition, as long as
- they did not travel
- they had the home field advantage
- they had the home fan advantage
- they had the home weather advantage
- they had ohio/cincy referees
- they did not have to stay in a hotel or take planes or bus rides for games
over 400 miles distance

that MUST be taken into consideration in comparing them against other top echelon dynasties

[consumerman]

Why is SLC even part of the question?

they arent

[TrojanHorse03]

Why is SLC even part of the question?


Perhaps for you there not, that's fine. For others including myself think a 30 game winning streak, a 49 game winning streak, 4 State Championships in 5 years, and being crowned Mythical National Championships in 3 straight years(2004-2006) is worthy of consideration. But again everybody has different criteria for this, yes there were more prolific dynasties, but I think the above accomplishments to name a few qualify.

[Chicago]

Was SLC, back when they were winning state championships, better than the 1989 and 1991 Permian teams?

Both Permian teams went 16-0, won 5A before the split into divisions, and finished 2nd in USA Today.

I am sure Pied has an opinion on this.

[TrojanHorse03]

Was SLC, back when they were winning state championships, better than the 1989 and 1991 Permian teams?

Both Permian teams went 16-0, won 5A before the split into divisions, and finished 2nd in USA Today.

I am sure Pied has an opinion on this.

I think me and Pied would agree they were not in 89 and 91. To clarify the 4 titles I was referring to were 2002, 2004-2006. Their other titles were in 88, 92, and 93 on the 3A level. Me and Pied probably also agree that those 3A championship teams would not have beaten their 5A counterparts, but 3 State titles and a host of other achievements during that time period as well are impressive as well at least maybe to me....

[pied]

Why is SLC even part of the question?


Woody brought it up.

I have no problem going on record saying that Moe was a dynasty and would have handed the Southlake Carroll teams of the last few years their azzes in a handbasket.

If we are speaking dynasties, give me DLS.

If we are talking about handing some azzes, give me SLC form the past few years, probably the '06 version over any team from the 70's to early 80's.

I think that Jesse brings up the best point about the changes in defense, although I don't think you'd find many fat-bellied OL.

[pied]

Was SLC, back when they were winning state championships, better than the 1989 and 1991 Permian teams?

Both Permian teams went 16-0, won 5A before the split into divisions, and finished 2nd in USA Today.

I am sure Pied has an opinion on this.


I was living in Arlington in the late 80's, about 15 miles from Southlake and hardly knew they existed. The Dragon teams were very good, but the depth of Permain would have killed them.

If we are comparing the mid '00 SLC and late '80 early '90 Permian teams, yes they were as good, but in different ways. Different eras in football as well. Both were very fun to watch discipline wise and about equal in that regard. Permian would get a big nod defensively, but SLC in the ability to score.

[Chicago]

By "back when they were winning state championships" I meant before 2007.

Sorry for any confusion.

It was too easy a shot not to take.

[pied]

Gotchs. Funny one as well. This year there does not appear to be many clear cut favorites, you never know the Dragons are likely to be in the hunt.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE=pied;3082804]Woody brought it up.

I have no problem going on record saying that Moe was a dynasty and would have handed the Southlake Carroll teams of the last few years their azzes in a handbasket.

If we are speaking dynasties, give me DLS.

If we are talking about handing some azzes, give me SLC form the past few years, probably the '06 version over any team from the 70's to early 80's.

I think that Jesse brings up the best point about the changes in defense, although I don't think you'd find many fat-bellied OL.[/QUOTE

I believe SLC was whalloping people back in the day, before Dodge, running the wishbone. Flat scalded people. Next to DLS probably the most consistant program over the last 20 years.

My reference to fat bellies was a picture I had of St. Louis, MaterDei, and some other very good teams that due to the style of offense they run, allows huge but decently agile big boys to kind of line up ankle to ankle and "plant" themselves. DLS, SLC, MNW, Poly, St X, and many more are cut and in shape for whatever.

Seeing Moeller was special back in the GF period. Even if you were not a Moeller fan you had to be impressed by not only the athleticism on display but the caliber of team play. In 1980 Moe put Doug Williams 6-6 280 (Texas A&M), John Askin 6-6 270 (Notre Dame), and Jeff Lytton 6-3 255 (Clemson) on the o-line.Hiawatha Franscisco(Notre Dame) at tailback, Mark Brooks(Notre Dame) at fullback. BobCrable at MLB should say enough about the defense. Most of the time it's hard to compare eras.

One could say the biggest reason for linmen carrying so much more weight is as much due to the rule changes of the late 70's and earky 80's as steroids and the proliferation of all you can eat grease bombs.:)

[Chicago]

I saw Alex Gibbs speak at a clinic last year.

He can't stand the fat guys. Absolutely detests them.

All he cares about, based on what he says, is smart, quick, and nasty.

[concha]

[QUOTE=pied;3082804]Woody brought it up.

I have no problem going on record saying that Moe was a dynasty and would have handed the Southlake Carroll teams of the last few years their azzes in a handbasket.

If we are speaking dynasties, give me DLS.

If we are talking about handing some azzes, give me SLC form the past few years, probably the '06 version over any team from the 70's to early 80's.

I think that Jesse brings up the best point about the changes in defense, although I don't think you'd find many fat-bellied OL.[/QUOTE

I believe SLC was whalloping people back in the day, before Dodge, running the wishbone. Flat scalded people. Next to DLS probably the most consistant program over the last 20 years.

My reference to fat bellies was a picture I had of St. Louis, MaterDei, and some other very good teams that due to the style of offense they run, allows huge but decently agile big boys to kind of line up ankle to ankle and "plant" themselves. DLS, SLC, MNW, Poly, St X, and many more are cut and in shape for whatever.

Seeing Moeller was special back in the GF period. Even if you were not a Moeller fan you had to be impressed by not only the athleticism on display but the caliber of team play. In 1980 Moe put Doug Williams 6-6 280 (Texas A&M), John Askin 6-6 270 (Notre Dame), and Jeff Lytton 6-3 255 (Clemson) on the o-line.Hiawatha Franscisco(Notre Dame) at tailback, Mark Brooks(Notre Dame) at fullback. BobCrable at MLB should say enough about the defense. Most of the time it's hard to compare eras.

One could say the biggest reason for linmen carrying so much more weight is as much due to the rule changes of the late 70's and earky 80's as steroids and the proliferation of all you can eat grease bombs.:)

I am convinced that steroids in our foods (ex. beef) have had an effect.

I remember being at X back in the early 80s and a 240-250 pound lineman was a really big guy. Having a 6'6" center on the hoops team and a couple of 6'4" forwards was a tall team.

Now an average o-line for X can run you 260-280 in a typical year. The basketball team has several kids in the neighborhood of 6'6" or better.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE=Jesse;3084178]

I am convinced that steroids in our foods (ex. beef) have had an effect.

I remember being at X back in the early 80s and a 240-250 pound lineman was a really big guy. Having a 6'6" center on the hoops team and a couple of 6'4" forwards was a tall team.

Now an average o-line for X can run you 260-280 in a typical year. The basketball team has several kids in the neighborhood of 6'6" or better.

Trying to find Moellers media guides from 79' and 80'.(wife went on a cleaning spree a few years ago, I should have fined her:mad: ) Could be wrong but I think Moeller had 8 or 9 guys between 245 and 280. And 4 or 5 from 6'5" to 6'8".Out of the norm for the time, but then Moeller was not a normal program in any aspect.

[Canes0177]

I want to preface this by saying that De La Salle is the program in which all others are measured.

Their streak is amazing and may never be broken.

But do you realize how many "state" championships a team like Aquinas would have if it only had to play 2-3 playoff games a year?

1983
1991
1992
1994
1996
1997
1999
2000
2001
2004
2005
2006
2007

Regardless of how great those teams were (and they were) or how amazing the streak was (and it was) it simply would have been different had they been forced to play 4-5 playoff games.

And it's a shame that California doesn't have a true playoff.

[WoodyHayes]

Gotchs. Funny one as well. This year there does not appear to be many clear cut favorites, you never know the Dragons are likely to be in the hunt.
I umpired a baseball game with the "ref" last night and we discussed this. His word for the Dragons this year (a quote)

"Stick a fork in em, their done" The ref was right on all accounts about SLC last year so I have to go with him again.

[consumerman]

let's go dls

[WoodyHayes]

The Moe team that Jesse referenced would have handed ANY SLC their butts in a handbasket. Did you see the names on that squad? They would have run the ball down SLC's throat all day long. FG kicker then was nailen em from 50. This team was something else. In any era.