View Full Version : Would You Sign up For 2008 Ohio vs USA?
Bordertown
05-04-07, 09:06 AM
First the idea is great in concept, but not practical in reality due to the limited gate it attracts and the limited financial resources of the promoter.
Evangel Christian Academy out of Shreveport signed an agreement to play in the 2007 Herbie and assumed they had a game Labor Day weekend in Ohio. The sponsors never contacted them to let them know they would not be included in the 2007 Herbie. This means in 2007, ECA will more than likely only play 9 games.
The sad part is Mr. Johnston appears to have attempted to have avoided "manning up" to the situation. It appears that the sponsors may be further embarassed by their matching a Michigan team that may not be able to make the trip.
Would you risk your teams 2008 schedule to the financial intergrity and the profession integrity of the Herbie promoters?
I think it would promt some serious questions befoire the contract was signed. Like in many deals, I think what is said/known in public is often different than reality. There are always two side to the story.
Bordertown
05-04-07, 09:26 AM
http://texashsfootball.com/board/index.php?showtopic=33493
The link above provides an explanation by an Evangel coach. I agree there are two sides, but I think Evangel got hosed by Mr. Johnston. My attendence last year at the Herbie, I could tell it was going to be a financial disaster. I think the only folks that came out on top were the UC folks leasing the stadium and charging at the parking garages.
I hope SLC never participates in the Herbie. It doesn't mean anything anyway. I don't think it helps a football program at all, especially when there is equal (and usually better) competition at home. These kinds of trips may hurt a program in the long run.
Look what happened to DLS after they went to Washington (which was similar type game to the Herbie). They've been losing every year since. Their trip to Ohio didn't prove anything either because they didn't even play an elite Ohio team. DLS should have focused on taking care of business at home in California.
Look what happened to Lakeland. They barely beat St.X, but St.X was shown to be worse than Colerain and then Colerain got beat themselves by Davidson. What did Lakeland prove? Nothing. St.X was not an elite Ohio team in 2006. Then, Lakeland returned to Florida and struggled to beat a few above average teams. Yeah, Lakeland won a shared national title but many people believe that Lakeland was overrated and wasn't even the best team in Florida. I think Lakeland was WAY overrated.
Consider Tyler Lee, who played in the FIRST Herbie (AFTER SLC declined the offer). They lost by a couple of touchdowns to Colerain and then they got SLAUGHTERED much worse by 4-5 Texas Teams. What benefit did the Herbie give to Tyler Lee?
Look at Texas High (Texarkana). They were THE top 4A Texas team and they won BIG at the Herbie. However, they got beat early in the Texas playoffs. They should have focused on taking care of business at home.
The Herbie is great for Ohio and may be an "OK" exhibition for teams that don't travel very far to get there. For the rest of the country, the Herbie is not something teams should participate in. Anyone who thinks that the Herbie proves anything about "Ohio vs. the USA" is a bonehead.
I think Coach Dodge was right when he didn't see the benefit of traveling across the country to play high school football. Focus should be winning at home.
That's how I feel.
SteveFoxSC
05-04-07, 10:04 AM
slc makes a point but these games are more or so an exhibition match if anything.
Bordertown
05-04-07, 10:09 AM
I agree the success of the Herbie rests on being a regional affair. I think it has been stated before the "Color" of high school football rests in the rivalries. Other than SLC vs DLS (on Yappi), I can not think of any national rivalry. Texas High's rival resides in Arkansas, but that is a function of location.
The Herbie ended up being another game for Texas High due to the quality of its opponent. But the experience was great for the kids. 90% of the kids had never been on an airplane or more than 250 miles of Texarkana. From the kids standpoint it was a positive.
SLCDad - How do you feel about the Northwestern Game? How does it differ from the Herbie?
I hope SLC never participates in the Herbie. It doesn't mean anything anyway. I don't think it helps a football program at all, especially when there is equal (and usually better) competition at home. These kinds of trips may hurt a program in the long run.-Just curious, how far is Abilene and San Antonio, the locations of the SLC-Midland Lee games? Why did they choose to play 5 hours away instead of playing local?
Look what happened to DLS after they went to Washington (which was similar type game to the Herbie). They've been losing every year since. Their trip to Ohio didn't prove anything either because they didn't even play an elite Ohio team. DLS should have focused on taking care of business at home in California.-I honestly don't think that DLS losing to Bellvue caused them to continue to lose games. I think the team was just not as good as the previous squads.
Look what happened to Lakeland. They beat St.X, but St.X was shown to be worse than Colerain and then Colerain got beat themselves by Davidson. What did Lakeland prove? Nothing. St.X was not an elite Ohio team in 2006. Then, Lakeland returned to Florida and struggled to beat a few above average teams. Yeah, Lakeland won a shared national title but many people believe that Lakeland was overrated and wasn't even the best team in Florida. I think Lakeland was WAY overrated.-And you have considered them even moreso had they not played St. X. I think your logic in this scenario might be the farthest off.
Consider Tyler Lee, who played in the FIRST Herbie (AFTER SLC declined the offer). They lost by a couple of touchdowns to Colerain and then they got SLAUGHTERED much worse by 4-5 Texas Teams. What benefit did the Herbie give to Tyler Lee?-What do you make of their victory over Chaminade earlier that year?
The Herbie is great for Ohio and may be an "OK" exhibition for teams that don't travel very far to get there. For the rest of the country, the Herbie is not something teams should participate in.
That's how I feel.
To add on those feelings, I have made many trips in my life and found that they enhanced my life. I have travelled for business and had the same feelings. I know many high schgool groups travel, some even abroad to competitions and exhibitions.
I think the games can take on too much importance, but also see real benefits. Ten years down the road, do you think the DLS teams will remember travelling to Seatle with their best friends or another random non conference game more?
Do you think the Raiders of REL would have been better off staying at home, beating A&M Consolidated in a non district game and going 5-5 still not
making the playoffs?
Bordertown might be closer to the situation as his team participated last year. Do you think Mallett and co. would rather have gone up to Ohio or played anohter home game?
I hope SLC never participates in the Herbie. It doesn't mean anything anyway. I don't think it helps a football program at all, especially when there is equal (and usually better) competition at home. These kinds of trips may hurt a program in the long run.
Look what happened to DLS after they went to Washington (which was similar type game to the Herbie). They've been losing every year since. Their trip to Ohio didn't prove anything either because they didn't even play an elite Ohio team. DLS should have focused on taking care of business at home in California.
Look what happened to Lakeland. They barely beat St.X, but St.X was shown to be worse than Colerain and then Colerain got beat themselves by Davidson. What did Lakeland prove? Nothing. St.X was not an elite Ohio team in 2006. Then, Lakeland returned to Florida and struggled to beat a few above average teams. Yeah, Lakeland won a shared national title but many people believe that Lakeland was overrated and wasn't even the best team in Florida. I think Lakeland was WAY overrated.
Consider Tyler Lee, who played in the FIRST Herbie (AFTER SLC declined the offer). They lost by a couple of touchdowns to Colerain and then they got SLAUGHTERED much worse by 4-5 Texas Teams. What benefit did the Herbie give to Tyler Lee?
Look at Texas High (Texarkana). They were THE top 4A Texas team and they won BIG at the Herbie. However, they got beat early in the Texas playoffs. They should have focused on taking care of business at home.
The Herbie is great for Ohio and may be an "OK" exhibition for teams that don't travel very far to get there. For the rest of the country, the Herbie is not something teams should participate in. Anyone who thinks that the Herbie proves anything about "Ohio vs. the USA" is a bonehead.
I think Coach Dodge was right when he didn't see the benefit of traveling across the country to play high school football. Focus should be winning at home.
That's how I feel.
I see what your saying, but it's nice to be able to sit and watch all these teams. it really gives you an idea of how HS football is played all over the country. Watching DeLasalle was a privledge for me and I just wish Elder would of had a good team to compete better with them. Elder has been really down the past 2 years as they are normally among the elite in Ohio.
SLCDad - How do you feel about the Northwestern Game? How does it differ from the Herbie?The MNW game may end up being a home game for SLC. It's a preseason game and it doesn't count for anything. I've said before that I think that MNW's priorities are misplaced for coming to Texas but for SLC it's just a preseason game that helps them prepare for district play. If SLC was going to Florida, I would disagree with it.
To add on those feelings, I have made many trips in my life and found that they enhanced my life. I have travelled for business and had the same feelings. I know many high schgool groups travel, some even abroad to competitions and exhibitions.
I think the games can take on too much importance, but also see real benefits. Ten years down the road, do you think the DLS teams will remember travelling to Seatle with their best friends or another random non conference game more?
Do you think the Raiders of REL would have been better off staying at home, beating A&M Consolidated in a non district game and going 5-5 still not
making the playoffs?
Bordertown might be closer to the situation as his team participated last year. Do you think Mallett and co. would rather have gone up to Ohio or played anohter home game?
I agree that traveling is a fun field trip for the players. YES, it's fun and a good memory. However, it's a distraction to building a football program.
Also, how much "fun" did the traveling players actually have. I've traveled all over the USA and to Europe many times on business. Sometimes it's fun and I have free time. However, if I'm just on planes, in hotels and in meetings it's not much fun at all. I wonder how much "fun" the players actually had? Did they have time for anything other than travel and football?
Regarding REL, I think the Herbie trip hurt their team and they would have done much better during the season if they had not gone.
You mention SLC's games with Midland Lee. Are you REALLY attempting to equate a trip to Ohio with a bus ride a few hours away? If you read my post, you will see that I have no problem with the Ohio teams playing an exhibition. I have no problem with SLC playing Midland Lee. It's Texas and it's still very close. Traveling across the country in a "challenge" match is something quite different.
Do you remember back in 2002 (I think that was the year). SLC had to travel 6+ hours for a play-off game. They chartered a jet rather than taking buses.
Bordertown
05-04-07, 11:01 AM
Bordertown might be closer to the situation as his team participated last year. Do you think Mallett and co. would rather have gone up to Ohio or played anohter home game?
I definitely think 25 years from now, that Mallett & Co. would remember the Herbie trip over a home game. (Note - given Texarkana's location there was no guarantee they would have had a home game. To find a 10th game in 2006, they had to play Waxahachie in Greenville (120 miles) as a "Home" game.) However, I think they would have rather gone to Ohio and lost, than to play a very average team.
Understand Texarkana and SLC are opposites from a social economic standpoint.
I do not think the trip side tracked the team from its ultimate goal - a state championship. Copperas Cove did and they were a pretty stout opponent. If anything it was a benefit, in that the kids got to practice on its "Road Routine", something rural teams must be adept. Texas High played a Texas playoff game against Highland Park (perpetual 4A Texas power) in Shreveport, LA. The reason was metro teams like SLC are not used to travel.
But ultimately no one in Cincinatti could give a rat's *** to see possibly the best QB in the country. The atmosphere for the Texas High game was horrible. I estimate 1,000 by halftime. In my eyes, it damaged Ohio's reputation as a high school football state. If the same teams had played in Dallas, I think the turnout would have been disappointing. I would doubt the turnout would have exceeded 5,000. But that is 5X more than Cinci.
For an event to be successsful you have to have 2 fan bases filling the stadium. At the Herbie, you only have one school's fan base in attendence.
But the reason, I would not advocate the Texas High returning to the Herbie (and they probably won't be invited again) is the apparent treatment of Evangel by its promoters. I would not want my kids subjected to false hopes and lose a game.
I fully expect some of the 22 teams to be burned by the promoter.
I definitely think 25 years from now, that Mallett & Co. would remember the Herbie trip over a home game. (Note - given Texarkana's location there was no guarantee they would have had a home game. To find a 10th game in 2006, they had to play Waxahachie in Greenville (120 miles) as a "Home" game.) However, I think they would have rather gone to Ohio and lost, than to play a very average team.
Understand Texarkana and SLC are opposites from a social economic standpoint.
I do not think the trip side tracked the team from its ultimate goal - a state championship. Copperas Cove did and they were a pretty stout opponent. If anything it was a benefit, in that the kids got to practice on its "Road Routine", something rural teams must be adept. Texas High played a Texas playoff game against Highland Park (perpetual 4A Texas power) in Shreveport, LA. The reason was metro teams like SLC are not used to travel.
But ultimately no one in Cincinatti could give a rat's *** to see possibly the best QB in the country. The atmosphere for the Texas High game was horrible. I estimate 1,000 by halftime. In my eyes, it damaged Ohio's reputation as a high school football state. If the same teams had played in Dallas, I think the turnout would have been disappointing. I would doubt the turnout would have exceeded 5,000. But that is 5X more than Cinci.
For an event to be successsful you have to have 2 fan bases filling the stadium. At the Herbie, you only have one school's fan base in attendence.
But the reason, I would not advocate the Texas High returning to the Herbie (and they probably won't be invited again) is the apparent treatment of Evangel by its promoters. I would not want my kids subjected to false hopes and lose a game.
I fully expect some of the 22 teams to be burned by the promoter.
That was just a bad matchup. Findley (Columbus area) was terrible and their playing 2 hours away from their school. Centerville is from the Dayton (1 hour away) area and they had a bad crowd also for their game against Don Baso. No one in Cincy cared about either team. If you would of played a local team such as X, Colerain, Moe, or Elder then the crowd would of been more what you anticipated. Did you go to the X, Moe, or Elder games? The crowds were very good.
Bordertown
05-04-07, 12:23 PM
That was just a bad matchup. Findley (Columbus area) was terrible and their playing 2 hours away from their school. Centerville is from the Dayton (1 hour away) area and they had a bad crowd also for their game against Don Baso. No one in Cincy cared about either team. If you would of played a local team such as X, Colerain, Moe, or Elder then the crowd would of been more what you anticipated. Did you go to the X, Moe, or Elder games? The crowds were very good.
I did not go to the Saturday games. The Colerain crowd versus the PA team was 6,000 in its own right. 42,000 attendence for 9 games is pathetic. The average crowd was less than 5,000. I think the attendence figure was in the USA Today.
The "No one in Cincy cared about either team" comment is why the Herbie will fail. Cincy venue needs to be converted to the "Ohio River Classic" and have teams from Pennsylvannia, Kentucky and Indiana where the folks can travel. A one hour and two hour car ride is not a good reason to have 750 folks in the stands. Not sure what McDonald's paid to be a sponsor, but an audience of 42,000 I doubt they sold the number of Big Macs needed to cover the cost of their promotion material.
Bordertown
05-04-07, 12:27 PM
Look at Texas High (Texarkana). They were THE top 4A Texas team and they won BIG at the Herbie. However, they got beat early in the Texas playoffs. They should have focused on taking care of business at home.
I don't think that had anything to do with them losing in the Regional Finals. I think you know Copperas Cove is a good ball club and Texas High beat Highland Park handily the week before. By the way that is not an early exit.
I did not go to the Saturday games. The Colerain crowd versus the PA team was 6,000 in its own right. 42,000 attendence for 9 games is pathetic. The average crowd was less than 5,000. I think the attendence figure was in the USA Today.
The "No one in Cincy cared about either team" comment is why the Herbie will fail. Cincy venue needs to be converted to the "Ohio River Classic" and have teams from Pennsylvannia, Kentucky and Indiana where the folks can travel. A one hour and two hour car ride is not a good reason to have 750 folks in the stands. Not sure what McDonald's paid to be a sponsor, but an audience of 42,000 I doubt they sold the number of Big Macs needed to cover the cost of their promotion material.
It's not that the Herbie will fail because no one in Cincy cares. It will be successfull if they limit the games to only Elder, X, Moe, and Colerain. Play them all in the same day and you will have 50k+ for the day. You can't have crappy teams from different parts of the state making the trip down. It has to be less games and kept to only the teams that draw well with local ties.
Bordertown
05-04-07, 12:57 PM
If Elde, X, Moe & Colerain were in the Herbie last year plus 5 other teams and 42,000 attended all the games, how do you make the claim the 4 teams could attract 50k+. Sorry I do not see it. I would suspect the Herbie sponsors business plan called for a minimum of 75,000 tickets sold.
But back to the initial point of the thread, given the wishy washy nature of the promoter, would you send you to play. If you are in Ohio would you go to Texas to play in a game Mr. Johnston promoted?
There are no excuses for how Evangel was treated.
If Elde, X, Moe & Colerain were in the Herbie last year plus 5 other teams and 42,000 attended all the games, how do you make the claim the 4 teams could attract 50k+. Sorry I do not see it. I would suspect the Herbie sponsors business plan called for a minimum of 75,000 tickets sold.
But back to the initial point of the thread, given the wishy washy nature of the promoter, would you send you to play. If you are in Ohio would you go to Texas to play in a game Mr. Johnston promoted?
There are no excuses for how Evangel was treated.
I agree that Evangel was treated badly. It will make it difficult in future years to secure teams.
Those teams weren't playing on the same day and they didn't play back to back to back to back, like they would with my idea. Point is, all the teams fans would stay for the other teams games to see how they are that year. Year in and out those are the 4 teams fighting for the City Title. Colerain fan doesn't want to go to their game on Friday and then back to Nippert on Sat. to watch games. I wanted to watch the X game that day but didn't go because I would of had to sit through Centervilles game afterward. Centerville and Findley games drew maybe 3k. Trust me, Colerain would of had many more tickets sold if they knew they would be able to watch all the other Cincy teams instead of just their game and a bad Findley team that they have no ties to.
Bordertown
05-04-07, 01:38 PM
They may have sold 10% more - maybe. The thing is when we read about 15,000 at a Colerain vs Elder game, those are the combined attendence of two schools with each contributing roughly half in theory. I have seen enough games at Texas Stadium in November and December to know 80% of the fans leave after their team has played. The husband has usually struck a deal with Mom to do Christmas shopping either before or after the game.
They may have sold 10% more - maybe. The thing is when we read about 15,000 at a Colerain vs Elder game, those are the combined attendence of two schools with each contributing roughly half in theory. I have seen enough games at Texas Stadium in November and December to know 80% of the fans leave after their team has played. The husband has usually struck a deal with Mom to do Christmas shopping either before or after the game.
Texas is a much bigger state and the 4 schools I mentioned above are within a 20 mile radius of each other with 3 of those teams in the same league. I went to last years game with a buddy from Colerain, his friend from X, and my father who attended Elder. It's different around here. I think you got my point though.
BTW, how was the hospitality and did you have a good time?
FormerWildcat
05-04-07, 03:50 PM
Findley (Columbus area)
Findlay is not in the "Columbus area." It's closer to Toledo than it is to Columbus.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&formtype=address&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&cat=&address=&city=Findlay&state=OH&zipcode=
UncleBaldy
05-04-07, 09:06 PM
Findlay is not in the "Columbus area." It's closer to Toledo than it is to Columbus.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&formtype=address&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&cat=&address=&city=Findlay&state=OH&zipcode=
Thanks for mentioning that before I needed to.
naughty
05-05-07, 09:55 AM
I hope SLC never participates in the Herbie. It doesn't mean anything anyway. I don't think it helps a football program at all, especially when there is equal (and usually better) competition at home. These kinds of trips may hurt a program in the long run.
Look what happened to DLS after they went to Washington (which was similar type game to the Herbie). They've been losing every year since. Their trip to Ohio didn't prove anything either because they didn't even play an elite Ohio team. DLS should have focused on taking care of business at home in California.
Look what happened to Lakeland. They barely beat St.X, but St.X was shown to be worse than Colerain and then Colerain got beat themselves by Davidson. What did Lakeland prove? Nothing. St.X was not an elite Ohio team in 2006. Then, Lakeland returned to Florida and struggled to beat a few above average teams. Yeah, Lakeland won a shared national title but many people believe that Lakeland was overrated and wasn't even the best team in Florida. I think Lakeland was WAY overrated.
Consider Tyler Lee, who played in the FIRST Herbie (AFTER SLC declined the offer). They lost by a couple of touchdowns to Colerain and then they got SLAUGHTERED much worse by 4-5 Texas Teams. What benefit did the Herbie give to Tyler Lee?
Look at Texas High (Texarkana). They were THE top 4A Texas team and they won BIG at the Herbie. However, they got beat early in the Texas playoffs. They should have focused on taking care of business at home.
The Herbie is great for Ohio and may be an "OK" exhibition for teams that don't travel very far to get there. For the rest of the country, the Herbie is not something teams should participate in. Anyone who thinks that the Herbie proves anything about "Ohio vs. the USA" is a bonehead.
I think Coach Dodge was right when he didn't see the benefit of traveling across the country to play high school football. Focus should be winning at home.
That's how I feel.
To call that hard fought game that lakeland and St.X played nothing. Is just insane and a slap in the face of all the kids who took part in it. Why do you hate lakeland so much. Duck n Dodge was just scared to travel. But loved to bring teams to him. So if thats how you feel. Then when Northwestern comes to texas no matter waht happens. It was worthless and proved nothing. You cant be wishy washy SlcDad. Make up your mind.
RidgePride
05-05-07, 01:04 PM
i agree with Naughty. SLCDad, the games aren't an exhibition. Many of the Ohio teams love playing and beating out of state competition, it helps with playoff harbin points. Also, the GCL South has a hard time finding teams to play in Ohio because we're good. I think Southlake Carroll just doesn't want to travel and thats ok too.
Catholic Blue, GCL S, and 5-5A, those three leagues are the best in the country and the way OHSAA has set up the playoff system we need to constantly search for new opponents.
Texas HS Fball = Ohio HS Fball = Cali HS Fball = Florida HS Fball
Anyone else that tries to compete with those four states just fails. Oklahoma, North Carolina, South Carolina, Indiana, Pennslyvania, and Louisiana have some top tyre teams but top to botton those four are far and away the best.
Also, if SLC played in the GCL South they wouldn't go undefeated every year. The only GCL Caliber teams SLC played last year were Trinity, who if not for the stupidest coaching decision ever wouldve beaten you, Evangel Christian, and i wanna say Colleyville Heritage but i think they'd be about on the same level as lasalle.
Don't get me wrong, SLC deserved the national title, they were the best and crushed everyone. But if Euless Trinity's coach didn't go for it on 4th down they wouldve won state.
Will SLC play Cedar Hill this year do you know??? I'd wanna see that.... Do you have the 07 schedule?
I'm done. That was kind of random of me but whatever....:angel:
I agree with most of what you said except that SLC would not have gone undefeated if they played in GCL South.
If any team from Ohio would have won 79-1 over 5 years, we would say they could not do it in TX.
What SLC has done in TX has defied all sense and logic. Without question I believe they could do it in any other state. If they lose to MNW then win state again in TX, I would change my opinion.
consumerman
05-05-07, 08:58 PM
I hope SLC never participates in the Herbie. It doesn't mean anything anyway. I don't think it helps a football program at all, especially when there is equal (and usually better) competition at home. These kinds of trips may hurt a program in the long run.
Look what happened to DLS after they went to Washington (which was similar type game to the Herbie). They've been losing every year since. Their trip to Ohio didn't prove anything either because they didn't even play an elite Ohio team. DLS should have focused on taking care of business at home in California.
Look what happened to Lakeland. They barely beat St.X, but St.X was shown to be worse than Colerain and then Colerain got beat themselves by Davidson. What did Lakeland prove? Nothing. St.X was not an elite Ohio team in 2006. Then, Lakeland returned to Florida and struggled to beat a few above average teams. Yeah, Lakeland won a shared national title but many people believe that Lakeland was overrated and wasn't even the best team in Florida. I think Lakeland was WAY overrated.
Consider Tyler Lee, who played in the FIRST Herbie (AFTER SLC declined the offer). They lost by a couple of touchdowns to Colerain and then they got SLAUGHTERED much worse by 4-5 Texas Teams. What benefit did the Herbie give to Tyler Lee?
Look at Texas High (Texarkana). They were THE top 4A Texas team and they won BIG at the Herbie. However, they got beat early in the Texas playoffs. They should have focused on taking care of business at home.
The Herbie is great for Ohio and may be an "OK" exhibition for teams that don't travel very far to get there. For the rest of the country, the Herbie is not something teams should participate in. Anyone who thinks that the Herbie proves anything about "Ohio vs. the USA" is a bonehead.
I think Coach Dodge was right when he didn't see the benefit of traveling across the country to play high school football. Focus should be winning at home.
That's how I feel.
look what happened when DLS traveled to Hawaii. they beat an 18 time state champion, nationally ranked team and won their 3rd of 4 successive national championships, and altogether 5 in 6 years.
Did traveling hurt them that year?????????????????/
the 2004 dls team started 2-3-2, I dont think traveling to Washington prevented them from winning only 2 of their first 7 games.
Do you??????????????????????????????????/
Traveling to Ohio and being called the most impressive team in the 2006 Herbie propelled them to a national #1 ranking, which they held for nearly 3 months until they layed an egg in the final game
would they have been ranked #1 had they not been credited as being the most impressive team at the herbie?
would they?????????????????
as always, your theories and reasoning do not match reality and what really happened
consumerman
05-05-07, 09:22 PM
I don't think it helps a football program at all, especially when there is equal (and usually better) competition at home
yeah those tough texas playoffs that are split into two divisions and watered down with 3-7 and 4-6 teams
and those monster 7-5 teams that are outscored for the season and are considered a national top 250 team or a team with FOUR losses that is considered a national top 40 team
who could find anything better than that?
Bordertown
05-05-07, 09:32 PM
BTW, how was the hospitality and did you have a good time?
No complaints. It was suggested we eat at an Italian Sports Bar run by a Steelers fan. Was good.
Bordertown
05-05-07, 09:53 PM
For a Texas team, the Herbie is an "exhibition" game. If Texas High would have lost it would have had no impact (other than mental) on their ability to make the playoffs. I suspect the same for Lakeland. However for the Ohio teams, the games are "real" because the game impacts the Harbin point system.
So I think you are both right.
consumerman
05-05-07, 10:00 PM
I wonder how much "fun" the players actually had? Did they have time for anything other than travel and football?
when DLS traveled to Hawaii the entire team volunteered to visit a Shriner's Hospital with seriously ill children
they also visited historic sites such as the Arizona Memorial
consumerman
05-05-07, 10:01 PM
The only GCL Caliber teams SLC played last year were Trinity, who if not for the stupidest coaching decision ever wouldve beaten you
very well said and most anyone with common sense agrees with you 100%
consumerman
05-05-07, 10:07 PM
oh. thanks.
a fake punt is a dangerous last chance gamble when you are trailing
it is NOT a good choice when you have a 6 point lead and have the other team to 16 points over 58 minutes
the stupidest football decision I have EVER seen
and look who benefited
yechhhhhhhhhh
consumerman
05-05-07, 10:19 PM
words cant describe how stupid that was of the trinity coach.
btw consumerman, how good is mission viejo going to be...? Moeller plays em and i remember listening to the game vs you guys cause you posted the link to it on here (thanks) and it seemed like you shouldve beaten em by a lot more except for the turnovers. what do they look like for this year, i know their freshman, sophmores for next year are amazing.
MV is a quality team
their best asset is their head coach and his pro style passing offense
DLS led 35-14 in the 4th Q
MV scored with about six minutes left and again with just a few second left
the final score was not indicative of the dominance DLS has
with that said MV played hard to the end and benefitted from 2 late TD
kind of like the DLS - ELder game
DLS led 49-18
ELder scored 20 points in the 4th Q against DLS second and third strings
the final 56-38 does not do justice to how DLS doiminated the game before calling the dogs off
MV will move the ball
they will have many studs on offense and a few on defense
unless Moeller is a top 5 Ohio team next year, I would put my money on MV
maybe in a 27-20 final
Also, if SLC played in the GCL South they wouldn't go undefeated every year. The only GCL Caliber teams SLC played last year were Trinity, who if not for the stupidest coaching decision ever wouldve beaten you, Evangel Christian, and i wanna say Colleyville Heritage but i think they'd be about on the same level as lasalle.
Don't get me wrong, SLC deserved the national title, they were the best and crushed everyone. But if Euless Trinity's coach didn't go for it on 4th down they wouldve won state.
Are you aware that SLC has played one of the toughest schedules in the nation? When they won the 2005 national title their schedule was 2nd in the nation slightly behind St.X. 2002 through 2006 were ALLl in the top 10.
I'll grant you that GCL teams have the toughest "regular season" in schedule but Texas 5A is the toughest division in the nation. When you add SLC's playoff schedule, their schedule is as tough as anybody in the nation.
Also, regarding the Trinity game, SLC had long drives on it's last three possessions against Trinity. There is a pretty good chance they would have scored with or without the fake punt.
To call that hard fought game that lakeland and St.X played nothing. Is just insane and a slap in the face of all the kids who took part in it. Why do you hate lakeland so much. Duck n Dodge was just scared to travel. But loved to bring teams to him. So if thats how you feel. Then when Northwestern comes to texas no matter waht happens. It was worthless and proved nothing. You cant be wishy washy SlcDad. Make up your mind.
I'm not saying that game didn't mean anything. The point is that it didn't prove anything. StX was thought to be an Ohio elite team. However as the season progressed, it was proved that StX was not.
By the way, I'd say there is a 50-50 chance that the Northwestern game WON'T happen. At this point there is no television contract, and if that doesn't happen, Northwestern won't spend the money itself to come to Texas.
Bordertown
05-06-07, 08:59 AM
Could be a second black eye for promoters and be the death of the nationwide globe trotting by high school teams.
Will SLC play Cedar Hill this year do you know??? I'd wanna see that.... Do you have the 07 schedule?
SLC will play 7 district games which they have no control over. They will also play Dallas Lake Highlands (home) and Rockwall (away). Both of these games are the 2nd year of a home/home agreement with these schools.
The 10th game (in week 2) is supposed to be Northwestern but that game is in doubt now. Hopefully it will happen.
Your comment is similar to what fans say constantly. Everybody knows SLC is #1 and everybody wants them to play this team or that team. SLC gets "challenges" like this constantly. We can't play everybody.
In Texas schedules are done two years at a time. When SLC's 2007 schedule was done, Cedar Hill had hardly ever won a playoff game. The only reason SLC had room for Northwestern on the schedule is because DLS wouldn't come to Texas.
SLC needs to focus on developing their football team and taking care of the most important business which is winning a state title. That is why I think traveling thousands of miles to play a meaningless game is the wrong priority.
consumerman
05-06-07, 10:56 AM
That is why I think traveling thousands of miles to play a meaningless game is the wrong priority.
so SLCDad has better vision and wisdom than DLS coach Bob Ladouceur, who is in the National High School Hall Of Fame and was nominated as one of the TOP FOUR COACHES in any sport, including college and professional sports a few years back
but he is wrong to travel and should listen to the all-knowing SLC Dad
right???????????
consumerman
05-06-07, 11:04 AM
Also, regarding the Trinity game, SLC had long drives on it's last three possessions against Trinity. There is a pretty good chance they would have scored with or without the fake punt
they had 16 points with 2 minutes to go in th egame
hardly a sure thing they would have have scored if Trinity had punted
worst decision in football history
consumerman
05-06-07, 11:10 AM
That is why I think traveling thousands of miles to play a meaningless game is the wrong priority.
Hmmm I thought this guy had about seven threads about the enormous preseason game where MNW is traveling 1000s of miles to play a preseason game against SLC and how important it was
1) preseason game is meaningless, UNLESS IT INVOLVES SLC
2) preseason ranking are meaningless, UNLESS IT INVOLVES SLC
3) traveling 1,000s of miles for a meaningless preseason game is the wrong priority, UNLESS ONE OF THE TWO TEAMS IS SLC, ... AND WE ALL KNOW SLC IS C/S TO TRAVEL
this guy is walking contradiction
Bordertown
05-06-07, 11:35 AM
So Consumerman getting on the purpose of the Thread. Would you have DLS sign a contract for the 2008 Herbie based on the treatment of Evangel?
If you read the post by the Evangel coach they thought they had a game (signed contract with the promoter) and only found out they had been dropped after the threatening to call the event's namesake.
If you look at it objectively, the events surrounding Evangel and possibly the failure of the SLC/Northwestern game make SLCDad look right. Why would you schedule a game 1000 miles away only to have the game not occur and have one less game to play. Evangel as of now is 95% assured of a 9 game season. If the SLC/Northwestern game does not occur, I would venture to guess that SLC would have 9 games. It may be easy for Northwestern to find a game, but I suspect not.
consumerman
05-06-07, 02:35 PM
So Consumerman getting on the purpose of the Thread. Would you have DLS sign a contract for the 2008 Herbie based on the treatment of Evangel?
I would have Coach Lad defer all decisions to Mr. Omniscient SLC Dad as he is much smarter and more accomplished in all phases of high school football than Coach Lad.
yallerjacket
05-06-07, 02:59 PM
So Consumerman getting on the purpose of the Thread. Would you have DLS sign a contract for the 2008 Herbie based on the treatment of Evangel?
I would have Coach Lad defer all decisions to Mr. Omniscient SLC Dad as he is much smarter and more accomplished in all phases of high school football than Coach Lad.
Another awesome post from Consumerman!
Bordertown
05-06-07, 06:03 PM
Typical, you try to ask a simple direct question and get garbage in return.
But trying to decipher the response, I take it he agrees with SLCDad. However SLC would not participate in the Herbie regardless of the reputation of the promoter. But DLS did participate in 2006.
Texas High particiapated in 2006 and had a good time. But I would be against a return trip with Mr Johnston in charge. I think the school would have high risk either get hung financially or lose a game (play 9).
consumerman
05-06-07, 07:13 PM
Typical, you try to ask a simple direct question and get garbage in return.
sorry to inform you this is not a deposition and you can ask all the pointed questions you want
i will post whatever I want whenever I want and am not dictated by you as to how I respond
I guess everyone associated with the Herbie are boneheads as SLC Dad attributes. ALl the Ohio teams and all the great teams from across the country
you agree they are all boneheads?
you think that SLC Dad is more knowledgable and a better high school football expert than Coach Lad?
do you??????????????
Bordertown
05-06-07, 07:29 PM
Actually trying to get you involved in the conversation. I won't try again. Have put you on my ignore list. Have a nice life.
RidgePride
05-06-07, 07:33 PM
Another awesome post from Consumerman!
He can compress the most words into the least logic better than any man I know. He's amazing
consumerman
05-06-07, 09:22 PM
He can compress the most words into the least logic better than any man I know. He's amazing
I got an A+ in advanced logic in college
what grade did u get?>
HeadHunter35
05-07-07, 01:28 AM
its a great marketing tool... and an oppertunity for some "no named" kids to show there stuff and maybe get some players into the uc program
So Consumerman getting on the purpose of the Thread. Would you have DLS sign a contract for the 2008 Herbie based on the treatment of Evangel?
If you read the post by the Evangel coach they thought they had a game (signed contract with the promoter) and only found out they had been dropped after the threatening to call the event's namesake.
If you look at it objectively, the events surrounding Evangel and possibly the failure of the SLC/Northwestern game make SLCDad look right. Why would you schedule a game 1000 miles away only to have the game not occur and have one less game to play. Evangel as of now is 95% assured of a 9 game season. If the SLC/Northwestern game does not occur, I would venture to guess that SLC would have 9 games. It may be easy for Northwestern to find a game, but I suspect not.It appears that Consumerman is reading my posts? Why did he change his mind? He said he had me on ignore. I wish he had kept his word.
I'm ignoring him. I have no desire to respond to a guy like that.
Bordertown
05-07-07, 06:53 AM
When I asked him if he was in favor of DLS returning to Herbie in 2008 with this promoter, would he be in favor. Rather than answering the question he "complimented" you on being smarter than the DLS coach and referred me to you.
Yea he is reading your posts and is like a LP with scratches, keeps talking about 4-7 teams and a bad fake punt.
I tried to include him in the thread, but he is either:
1) mentally incompetent
2) suffering an inferiority complex to SLC and Texas high school football or
3) is soooooooo smart he cannot communicate with the common man.
Like you, I will see a message - "This message is hidden because consumerman is on your ignore list. ".
When I asked him if he was in favor of DLS returning to Herbie in 2008 with this promoter, would he be in favor. Rather than answering the question he "complimented" you on being smarter than the DLS coach and referred me to you.
Yea he is reading your posts and is like a LP with scratches, keeps talking about 4-7 teams and a bad fake punt.
I tried to include him in the thread, but he is either:
1) mentally incompetent
2) suffering an inferiority complex to SLC and Texas high school football or
3) is soooooooo smart he cannot communication with the common man.
Like you, I will see a message - "This message is hidden because consumerman is on your ignore list. ".
Smart move.
consumerman
05-07-07, 08:22 AM
he "complimented" you on being smarter than the DLS coach and referred me to you.
if you could not tell I was being 1,000% facetious then I have no hope for you
this guy said anyone who tried to make any inferences from the Herbie was a bonehead
I guess he is still more knowledgable about all aspects of hs fb than coach Lad, who happens to be in the hs coaches hall of fame
consumerman
05-07-07, 08:28 AM
and least we forget,
SLC Dad was reprimanded by the moderator of this board for having no clue what high school sports is all about
Bordertown
05-07-07, 08:41 AM
"This message is hidden because consumerman is on your ignore list. ".
Sorry - how it comes across my computer.
RidgePride
05-07-07, 11:01 AM
I got an A+ in advanced logic in college
LOL - You are funny
Cincy guy
05-08-07, 09:22 PM
To call that hard fought game that lakeland and St.X played nothing. Is just insane and a slap in the face of all the kids who took part in it. Why do you hate lakeland so much. Duck n Dodge was just scared to travel. But loved to bring teams to him. So if thats how you feel. Then when Northwestern comes to texas no matter waht happens. It was worthless and proved nothing. You cant be wishy washy SlcDad. Make up your mind.
Naugthy dont agrue with him even if X did not win state and Lakeland did not run thur everyone that they played does not mean that they are not elite teams. We got to see a lot of future stars on the field that day such as Chris Rainey , Ahmad Black, Daruis Ashley, Fred Craig, and Jamar Taylor and John Brown, and one ---- of a game. While Lakeland had the b?LLS to travel to a national powers back yard SLC sat at home. We will see what happens when MNW gets a hold of them.
Cincy guy
05-08-07, 09:28 PM
I agree with most of what you said except that SLC would not have gone undefeated if they played in GCL South.
If any team from Ohio would have won 79-1 over 5 years, we would say they could not do it in TX.
What SLC has done in TX has defied all sense and logic. Without question I believe they could do it in any other state. If they lose to MNW then win state again in TX, I would change my opinion.
Please dont take this the wrong way but in all honesty SLC would not go undefeated in the Gcl every year they are to finess trust me.
RidgePride
05-09-07, 05:29 AM
Please dont take this the wrong way but in all honesty SLC would not go undefeated in the Gcl every year they are to finess trust me.
You say "in all honesty" in a very omniscient way. What you mean to say is "in my opinion."
Your opinion is not worth any more than mine. We have power teams in Texas and SLC has faced many of them in the playoffs.
I think if they can make it through the Texas playoffs undefeated -1 for 5 years, they can do it in the GCL.
No way in h*ll you can change my mind about that; as I cannot change yours.
Please dont take this the wrong way but in all honesty SLC would not go undefeated in the Gcl every year they are to finess trust me.
Yes, the GCL is the toughest "league" in the country. I agree with you.
The Texas 5A division is the toughest "division" in the country. SLC is 18-0 in the Texas 5A playoffs in the last three years and 29-1 in the last five years. Not only that, SLC's playoff opponents in 2004 and 2005 were extraordinarily tough even for Texas. 2006 was a bit easier.
The level of competition in the Texas 5A playoffs is probably a bit tougher than the competition in the GCL. At least that's what the human and computer ratings say.
Big Drop
05-09-07, 05:56 PM
Moeller, under Faust won 106 out of 107 games playing not only Ohio schools but also the toughest schools in the United States. Their only loss was in a state championship game. Along the way they beat the best teams from VA (Bethel), MD (DeMatha), FL (Miami Christopher Columbus), CA (Servite with Steve Beurelein at qb) and a half dozen other states all who sent teams in their prime for their own "gut check" against America's best, Moeller.
SLC DAD, you have a losing position on this board, which is an Ohio board. I would be just as disappointed if anyone from Ohio gave you any concession as I would be if anyone from Texas gave anyone from Ohio a concession.
Today, SLC Carroll may be as good as any team in America. But the game you need to have next year is NOT with Miami Northwestern. It is against the team you were originally scheduled to play, Concord, CA De La Salle. THEY are still the standard against which all high schools are measured.
consumerman
05-09-07, 06:09 PM
Moeller, under Faust won 106 out of 107 games playing not only Ohio schools but also the toughest schools in the United States. Their only loss was in a state championship game. Along the way they beat the best teams from VA (Bethel), MD (DeMatha), FL (Miami Christopher Columbus), CA (Servite with Steve Beurelein at qb) and a half dozen other states all who sent teams in their prime for their own "gut check" against America's best, Moeller.
SLC DAD, you have a losing position on this board, which is an Ohio board. I would be just as disappointed if anyone from Ohio gave you any concession as I would be if anyone from Texas gave anyone from Ohio a concession.
Today, SLC Carroll may be as good as any team in America. But the game you need to have next year is NOT with Miami Northwestern. It is against the team you were originally scheduled to play, Concord, CA De La Salle. THEY are still the standard against which all high schools are measured.
nicely said
but to SLC Homer the football world started 3 years ago
Moeller, under Faust won 106 out of 107 games playing not only Ohio schools but also the toughest schools in the United States. Their only loss was in a state championship game. Along the way they beat the best teams from VA (Bethel), MD (DeMatha), FL (Miami Christopher Columbus), CA (Servite with Steve Beurelein at qb) and a half dozen other states all who sent teams in their prime for their own "gut check" against America's best, Moeller.
SLC DAD, you have a losing position on this board, which is an Ohio board. I would be just as disappointed if anyone from Ohio gave you any concession as I would be if anyone from Texas gave anyone from Ohio a concession.
Today, SLC Carroll may be as good as any team in America. But the game you need to have next year is NOT with Miami Northwestern. It is against the team you were originally scheduled to play, Concord, CA De La Salle. THEY are still the standard against which all high schools are measured.
Moeller lost in the quarterfinals in 74' and did no lose again until the 2nd game of 78' Princeton nosed Moe out 13-12.Next loss was 81' finals to McKinley 1st year post Faust.Not quite 106 of 107 but still a tall feat.The main diff betweenOhio football and Texas is that in Ohio you never have to travel far to watch good teams knock heads.
Chicago
05-10-07, 06:21 AM
Quarterfinals didn't exist until 1980.
Moeller lost in the semifinals in 1974.
SLC DAD, you have a losing position on this board, which is an Ohio board. I would be just as disappointed if anyone from Ohio gave you any concession as I would be if anyone from Texas gave anyone from Ohio a concession.
Today, SLC Carroll may be as good as any team in America. But the game you need to have next year is NOT with Miami Northwestern. It is against the team you were originally scheduled to play, Concord, CA De La Salle. THEY are still the standard against which all high schools are measured.
Actually, this is a National Board not an Ohio Board. (Note the title: "National Football Board")
DLS refused to come and play SLC. WE wish they had come. It would have been nice to crush them. (Which I honestly believe would have happened.)
In 2007 a game with Northwestern will be much more significant than the game with DLS would have been. In the last three years DLS finished the season ranked #81, #44 and #23 in the nation. Ever since that Bellevue loss, DLS has not been the team they used to be. Over that same period SLC has played a dozen teams ranked higher than DLS.
On the other hand, Miami Northwestern may be the 2nd best team in the nation in 2007 (maybe the BEST team in the nation).
Chicago
05-10-07, 07:36 AM
SLC will take on anyone, anywhere.
Unless anywhere includes outside of Texas. In which case we don't really do that, due to...uh...policy.
SLC will take on anyone, anywhere.
Unless anywhere includes outside of Texas. In which case we don't really do that, due to...uh...policy.
Not exactly. Yes, SLC will take on anyone. Coach Dodge said several times that he would play anyone. He doesn't see the benefit of traveling thousand of miles to do it when there is equal or better competition in Texas. I agree with him. His priorities are right IMO.
Perhaps SLC's new coach will see things differently.
There is no "policy" regarding this.
consumerman
05-10-07, 09:28 AM
Actually, this is a National Board not an Ohio Board. (Note the title: "National Football Board")
DLS refused to come and play SLC. WE wish they had come. It would have been nice to crush them. (Which I honestly believe would have happened.)
In 2007 a game with Northwestern will be much more significant than the game with DLS would have been. In the last three years DLS finished the season ranked #81, #44 and #23 in the nation. Ever since that Bellevue loss, DLS has not been the team they used to be. Over that same period SLC has played a dozen teams ranked higher than DLS.
On the other hand, Miami Northwestern may be the 2nd best team in the nation in 2007 (maybe the BEST team in the nation).
umm DLS was ranked in the top 25 in 2005
and was #1 for most of 2006 and finished #14
umm DLS was ranked in the top 25 in 2005
and was #1 for most of 2006 and finished #14
I've taken you off ignore as long as you are nice.
You are using the USA Today poll only. The numbers I posted were a compilation of all of the national polls.
In 2006, for example, three polls had DLS in the Top 25. However, in three polls DLS didn't make the Top 25. DLS only made the list in the west rankings in these polls.
In 2005, USA Today was the ONLY poll to put DLS in the Top 25 (they were 23rd). None of the other polls ranked them nationally.
Using all of the polls DLS was:
2004: #81 (tied with about 30 schools)
2005: #44
2006: #23
Actually, this is a National Board not an Ohio Board. (Note the title: "National Football Board")
DLS refused to come and play SLC. WE wish they had come. It would have been nice to crush them. (Which I honestly believe would have happened.)
In 2007 a game with Northwestern will be much more significant than the game with DLS would have been. In the last three years DLS finished the season ranked #81, #44 and #23 in the nation. Ever since that Bellevue loss, DLS has not been the team they used to be. Over that same period SLC has played a dozen teams ranked higher than DLS.
On the other hand, Miami Northwestern may be the 2nd best team in the nation in 2007 (maybe the BEST team in the nation).
So you are saying that SLC really wanted to schedule ansd play a team who was at their lowest ranking in 15 years, #81 and #44?
I don't believe that, but it would appear that was what the staff was doing according to your logic.
consumerman
05-10-07, 10:09 AM
Not exactly. Yes, SLC will take on anyone. Coach Dodge said several times that he would play anyone. He doesn't see the benefit of traveling thousand of miles to do it when there is equal or better competition in Texas. I agree with him. His priorities are right IMO.
Perhaps SLC's new coach will see things differently.
There is no "policy" regarding this.
Coach Dodge is an apt description for scheduling quality non conference out of state teams
they DODGE that
So you are saying that SLC really wanted to schedule ansd play a team who was at their lowest ranking in 15 years, #81 and #44?
I don't believe that, but it would appear that was what the staff was doing according to your logic.
Look, I'm just quoting the polls. I don't make this stuff up.
Would you like the links?
Regarding scheduling DLS we would have LOVED to play them. DLS would have been one of the better teams on SLC's schedule. Perhaps the best excluding the playoffs. They were a power not to long ago. Based on what I've seen watching two DLS games last year, I believe SLC would have beat them soundly.
Coach Dodge is an apt description for scheduling quality non conference out of state teams
they DODGE that
How do you reconcile your statement (above) with the fact that SLC is playing the #2 team in the nation this year? Don't they qualify as a "quality non-conference out of state team."
consumerman
05-10-07, 10:20 AM
How do you reconcile your statement (above) with the fact that SLC is playing the #2 team in the nation this year?
is Coach Dodge the Coach?
they have not played this game yet
who have they PLAYED (pick a year 1970-2006?
arent you the one who spent three months saying preseason and early season rankings are meaningless and the only rankings that count are final rankings?
Look, I'm just quoting the polls. I don't make this stuff up.
Would you like the links?
Nope, I have no reason to doubt your data.
It just appears to me some of the comments are not in line with the data.
The DLS game was set up at the end of the '05 season. At that time they were ranked, according to you, #81 and #44 in the two previous seasons, by far their worst record fo many years.
You also said:
WE wish they had come. It would have been nice to crush them.
So according to this information, "SLC" (or as you said WE), wished the #81 and #44 team in the nation to come.
Is that accurate? If so, it would appear many of the Ohio faithful would have been accurate in saying that Dodge was trying to bring in teams that were past their primes, and that SLC was trying to make a name for themselves.
If not, then we have to assume that the rankings are not accurate or that SLC did not want to play DLS. Somehting would appear to have to give.
Coach Dodge is an apt description for scheduling quality non conference out of state teams
they DODGE that
Says the man who supports a team that had a deal on the table for an all expenses trip to play SLC and decided not to go....
consumerman
05-10-07, 10:28 AM
Says the man who supports a team that had a deal on the table for an all expenses trip to play SLC and decided not to go....
and your proof is???
DLS traveled 2,500 miles to play an 18 time state champion in 2002
DLS traveled to Washington to play a 3 time defending state champion in 2004
DLS traveled 2000 miles to play in the Herbie
you have NOTHING to stand on
So according to this information, "SLC" (or as you said WE), wished the #81 and #44 team in the nation to come.
Is that accurate? If so, it would appear many of the Ohio faithful would have been accurate in saying that Dodge was trying to bring in teams that were past their primes, and that SLC was trying to make a name for themselves.
If not, then we have to assume that the rankings are not accurate or that SLC did not want to play DLS. Somehting would appear to have to give.
Sorry, Pied, your underlying assumptions are wrong. Sorry.
SLC didn't specifically schedule DLS. The promoters did that. SLC didn't try to bring in anybody. They accepted the offer.
If SLC was doing the scheduling, they would have played Texas teams.
Sorry, Pied, your underlying assumptions are wrong. Sorry.
SLC didn't specifically schedule DLS. The promoters did that. SLC didn't try to bring in anybody. They accepted the offer.
If SLC was doing the scheduling, they would have played Texas teams.
That is silly reasoning. So you expect me to believe that when they agreed to go with Titus they wanted to schedule a Texas team? If they did not want to play an OOS team they simply ould have said no, like they did to the Herbie organizers.
You seem to want to imply that somehow the marketing company strong armed them. If they dod not like the match ups, they could have tried to schedule a TX team.
consumerman
05-10-07, 10:46 AM
That is silly reasoning. So you expect me to believe that when they agreed to go with Titus they wanted to schedule a Texas team? If they did not want to play an OOS team they simply ould have said no, like they did to the Herbie organizers.
You seem to want to imply that somehow the marketing company strong armed them. If they dod not like the match ups, they could have tried to schedule a TX team.
it is a mute point
it is a mute point
Did you use the word "mute" in any of those A+ papers?
That is silly reasoning. So you expect me to believe that when they agreed to go with Titus they wanted to schedule a Texas team? If they did not want to play an OOS team they simply ould have said no, like they did to the Herbie organizers.
You seem to want to imply that somehow the marketing company strong armed them. If they dod not like the match ups, they could have tried to schedule a TX team.
I'm saying that SLC didn't initiate the game. They didn't seek out an OOS game. They didn't seek out the promoter. They responded to offers that were presented to them.
The marketing company made an offer and SLC said "OK".
I'm saying that if outside offers hadn't come, SLC would have scheduled an in state team that week. SLC has never proactively sought to schedule and OOS team.
Did you use the word "mute" in any of those A+ papers?
:D funny
consumerman
05-10-07, 11:07 AM
Did you use the word "mute" in any of those A+ papers?
hahah
not that I recall
consumerman
05-10-07, 11:08 AM
I'm saying that SLC didn't initiate the game. They didn't seek out an OOS game. They didn't seek out the promoter. They responded to offers that were presented to them.
The marketing company made an offer and SLC said "OK".
I'm saying that if outside offers hadn't come, SLC would have scheduled an in state team that week. SLC has never proactively sought to schedule and OOS team.
and there lies the rub
I'm saying that if outside offers hadn't come, SLC would have scheduled an in state team that week. SLC has never proactively sought to schedule and OOS team.
So how does that comment go with this comment?
WE wish they had come. It would have been nice to crush them
consumerman
05-10-07, 11:12 AM
So how does that comment go with this comment?
let it go guys
you are arguing about NOTHING
and there lies the rubThat's what I've been saying from the start.
SLC's priority is to win a state title (the coaches have said that publically). They don't care about state vs. state bravado. I believe that teams that care about state vs. state bravado are doomed to fail in the long run. I posted several examples of that.
consumerman
05-10-07, 11:16 AM
That's what I've been saying from the start.
SLC's priority is to win a state title (the coaches have said that publically). They don't care about state vs. state bravado. I believe that teams that care about state vs. state bravado are doomed to fail in the long run. I posted several examples of that.
you "bashed" DLS for playing in Washington and used that as an example to your point
how do you feel about DLS winning (subjectively) another National Championship in 2002, partly due to the fact they traveled 2500 miles to Hawaii and beat an 18 time state champion who was 18-1 vs out-of-state teams
it goes against your theory
So how does that comment go with this comment?
SLC has never proactively sought and OOS game. However, once the DLS offer was accepted we (or at least me) wish DLS was able to follow through.
What's the problem?
Bordertown
05-10-07, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by consumerman
Coach Dodge is an apt description for scheduling quality non conference out of state teams
they DODGE that
How do you reconcile your statement (above) with the fact that SLC is playing the #2 team in the nation this year? Don't they qualify as a "quality non-conference out of state team."
Uh oh, I feel a DLS vs SLC debate coming up. Not sure who "Dodged" who in that one!!
consumerman
05-10-07, 11:24 AM
Uh oh, I feel a DLS vs SLC debate coming up. Not sure who "Dodged" who in that one!!
SLC has been in my opinion better than DLS every year since 2004
and will be in 2007
but DLS has not been a weak "loser" as some have implied, but their talent level has not been as good as the "streak" years
DLSfanNW
05-10-07, 03:17 PM
Coach Lad I believe was the first to have his players prepare year round and he created a group of players willing to really sacrifice and hold each other accountable to the group and for the good of the team.
The product was first and foremost character development for the players.
The byproduct was winning football games.
By outworking 99% of the other teams and playing in a system capable of moving the ball with average size athletes they were able to defeat 99% of their opponents.
The physical training aspect has since been duplicated by select schools around the country. If your school is of National prominence chances are they are training with a high degree of focus in the off season.
Many school systems like those in Bellevue, Wa; Southlake, Tx ; Byrnes SC to name a few have feeder systems which begins grooming players as early as the sixth grade or earlier. DLS does not and starts kids as freshman in the system they use.
The last few DLS teams have had very few D1 caliber players yet still have played at a very high level thanks to the hard work they have put in. Because I believe they are in it to develope character and not just put up banners is why I respect the coaching staff and the team.
Those teams which are driven to win for reasons other then this are not necessarily wrong but I think they miss the point.
consumerman
05-10-07, 05:30 PM
Coach Lad I believe was the first to have his players prepare year round and he created a group of players willing to really sacrifice and hold each other accountable to the group and for the good of the team.
The product was first and foremost character development for the players.
The byproduct was winning football games.
By outworking 99% of the other teams and playing in a system capable of moving the ball with average size athletes they were able to defeat 99% of their opponents.
The physical training aspect has since been duplicated by select schools around the country. If your school is of National prominence chances are they are training with a high degree of focus in the off season.
Many school systems like those in Bellevue, Wa; Southlake, Tx ; Byrnes SC to name a few have feeder systems which begins grooming players as early as the sixth grade or earlier. DLS does not and starts kids as freshman in the system they use.
The last few DLS teams have had very few D1 caliber players yet still have played at a very high level thanks to the hard work they have put in. Because I believe they are in it to develope character and not just put up banners is why I respect the coaching staff and the team.
Those teams which are driven to win for reasons other then this are not necessarily wrong but I think they miss the point.
It has been stated that the 2004 team, which probably had the least amount of talent of any DLS team in over 20 years, and started 2-3-2, but rebounded to win 6 straight and the section championship, was THE BEST coaching job Coach Lad had ever done
Bordertown
05-10-07, 06:10 PM
Coach Lad I believe was the first to have his players prepare year round and he created a group of players willing to really sacrifice and hold each other accountable to the group and for the good of the team.
The physical training aspect has since been duplicated by select schools around the country. If your school is of National prominence chances are they are training with a high degree of focus in the off season.
How long has Coach Lad been around? Rigorous offseason has been around along time.
Are the kids at DLS allowed to play in other sports - basketball, baseball, etc.. ? If not I am not sure if I am in agreement. By your own admission, DLS turns out very few D-1 players. So the kids ticket to college is rarely based on a football scholarship. Why not let a kid be a high school jock?
While I like high school football, it is not my favorite sport. Any team sport teaches discipline and team work. I am not a fan of coaches that demand the kids are exclusive to one sport. You are a kid only once - Enjoy it!!!
consumerman
05-10-07, 07:17 PM
How long has Coach Lad been around? Rigorous offseason has been around along time.
Are the kids at DLS allowed to play in other sports - basketball, baseball, etc.. ? If not I am not sure if I am in agreement. By your own admission, DLS turns out very few D-1 players. So the kids ticket to college is rarely based on a football scholarship. Why not let a kid be a high school jock?
While I like high school football, it is not my favorite sport. Any team sport teaches discipline and team work. I am not a fan of coaches that demand the kids are exclusive to one sport. You are a kid only once - Enjoy it!!!
Matt Gutierrez, 3 yer QB played on a D1 state basketball champion (won on court)
There are like 5 NFL players / high profile college players currently from DLS
the D1 lack of players is a very recent trend
DLSfanNW
05-10-07, 09:29 PM
True while DLS has turned out the occasional stud the vast majority of players will never play football at a higher level then high school. The chance to travel to Cincinnati and play in the atmosphere of a Nippert Stadium or flying to Seattle and playing on Seahawks Stadium in front of thousands is an opportunity few ever get.
The competition and camaraderie can only help a team prepare for the big state games.
In terms of the conditioning Lad was the first I have ever heard of to begin conditioning right after Christmas break and to bring in experts to create a scientific lifting program for each player. He started this around 25 years ago or so I believe.
SteveFoxSC
05-11-07, 02:27 AM
Also, regarding the Trinity game, SLC had long drives on it's last three possessions against Trinity. There is a pretty good chance they would have scored with or without the fake punt
they had 16 points with 2 minutes to go in th egame
hardly a sure thing they would have have scored if Trinity had punted
worst decision in football history
on the contrary http://emuse.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/6703 last 3 minutes of a game. Tell me again how many points where scored in a 2-3 minute period when a teams up 41 to 16.
consumerman
05-11-07, 08:47 AM
on the contrary http://emuse.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/6703 last 3 minutes of a game. Tell me again how many points where scored in a 2-3 minute period when a teams up 41 to 16.
and the relevance to trinity vs slc is???????????????????
Chicago
05-11-07, 08:53 AM
Mike Blasquez, now at Cal, was the strength and conditioning coach at De La Salle from 1992 to 2003 (at least that's how Cal lists it).
The 151-game streak ran from the first game of 1992 through the last game of 2003.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't everything, but I'm also pretty sure he made a huge contribution.
Bordertown
05-11-07, 09:02 AM
True while DLS has turned out the occasional stud the vast majority of players will never play football at a higher level then high school. The chance to travel to Cincinnati and play in the atmosphere of a Nippert Stadium or flying to Seattle and playing on Seahawks Stadium in front of thousands is an opportunity few ever get.
The competition and camaraderie can only help a team prepare for the big state games.
I agree although the 1,000 Texas High played before was a little embarassing. DLS had to fly to SoCal for the California Bowl it probably made sense. Allowed the team to learn how to travel by air.
JazzyJeff
05-11-07, 02:02 PM
I
But ultimately no one in Cincinatti could give a rat's *** to see possibly the best QB in the country. The atmosphere for the Texas High game was horrible. I estimate 1,000 by halftime. In my eyes, it damaged Ohio's reputation as a high school football state. If the same teams had played in Dallas, I think the turnout would have been disappointing. I would doubt the turnout would have exceeded 5,000. But that is 5X more than Cinci.
For an event to be successsful you have to have 2 fan bases filling the stadium. At the Herbie, you only have one school's fan base in attendence.
But the reason, I would not advocate the Texas High returning to the Herbie (and they probably won't be invited again) is the apparent treatment of Evangel by its promoters. I would not want my kids subjected to false hopes and lose a game.
I fully expect some of the 22 teams to be burned by the promoter.
We've discussed this on the national board already, but to get everyone up to speed on some of the discussion.
First of all, Jimmy Claussen was the No. 1 QB in the country and it wasn't even close. For better or worse, you can bet if Claussen was at the Herbie, they would have got a much better draw and time than Mallett and Texas High. Not only because Claussen's a bigger name, but because he was going to ND. Cincinnati has a very high percentage of ND fans, while "University of Michigan prospect" means little.
Secondly, I doubt that a matchup between Findlay and Texas High in Dallas garners 5,000 on a Friday evening at 6:00 p.m. Terrible matchup, terrible time and one terrible team.
Losing respect for Ohio is your prerogative, but I think Cincinnati fans did the right thing and attended their own games instead of funding the stinker of a game. With less butts in the seats, perhaps someone will realize that Friday night games are not a good idea, nor are poor matchups. When those two factors are combined, the result is not that hard to figure out, which most people did. You may have missed it doing your best to tell Ohio posters that Findlay was still a very good team.
Bordertown
05-11-07, 04:15 PM
First of all, Jimmy Claussen was the No. 1 QB in the country and it wasn't even close. For better or worse, you can bet if Claussen was at the Herbie, they would have got a much better draw and time than Mallett and Texas High. Not only because Claussen's a bigger name, but because he was going to ND. Cincinnati has a very high percentage of ND fans, while "University of Michigan prospect" means little.
Did you watch the Army All-American Bowl? Do you seriously think it is not close who the best QB is? Granted Clausen is a bigger name do to the media hype. Claussen would have been a bigger name at the Herbie as it was dominated by Ohio Catholic schools and ND has a huge following.
Losing respect for Ohio is your prerogative, but I think Cincinnati fans did the right thing and attended their own games instead of funding the stinker of a game. With less butts in the seats, perhaps someone will realize that Friday night games are not a good idea, nor are poor matchups. When those two factors are combined, the result is not that hard to figure out, which most people did. You may have missed it doing your best to tell Ohio posters that Findlay was still a very good team.
Where did I say I lost respect for Ohio? I have no respect for the promoter for backing out on his commitment to Evangel and not having the b*lls to tell the school until the they threatened to call Kirk himself.
We are in agreement that in an event like this, bad matchup should not exist and Texas High/Findlay was a bad matchup. 2007 promises more of the same.
Texas High/Findlay might not have drawn 5,000, but it would have been close. Texas High fans would have been hyped to bring 4,000.
I respect DLS, but in all honesty they never won an out right state championship. They had a "real" state championship game for Cali in 2006 for the first time in 70 some odd years and didn't they get beat by 2 TDs or more to a Southern Cal team. The Country Canyon Cowboys?
I truely believe that had they faced the southern half of the state in playoff games, that that run of 152 wins would've stopped long time ago. I.E. Mission Viejo, Long Beach Poly heck I think even Oaks Christian could've beat 'em last year.
With all that said Texas does need to do somthin about their playoff system, for SLC and Trinity to have met for the first time last year was ridiculous. That should've happened long time ago!
Bordertown
05-11-07, 06:40 PM
With all that said Texas does need to do somthin about their playoff system, for SLC and Trinity to have met for the first time last year was ridiculous. That should've happened long time ago!
Not going to happen. There are proposal to revamp the playoffs to put the 120 largest schools in Division I districts and the next 120 in Division II districts. But if two teams from adjoining districts are the top two teams in the state, they will probably meet in round 2. Texas does not have a seeding mechanism and it would be impractical given the geographic size of Texas. Keep in mind a Region in Texas is 1.5x the size of the state of Ohio.
DLSfanNW
05-11-07, 10:07 PM
I respect DLS, but in all honesty they never won an out right state championship. They had a "real" state championship game for Cali in 2006 for the first time in 70 some odd years and didn't they get beat by 2 TDs or more to a Southern Cal team. The Country Canyon Cowboys?
I truely believe that had they faced the southern half of the state in playoff games, that that run of 152 wins would've stopped long time ago. I.E. Mission Viejo, Long Beach Poly heck I think even Oaks Christian could've beat 'em last year.
With all that said Texas does need to do somthin about their playoff system, for SLC and Trinity to have met for the first time last year was ridiculous. That should've happened long time ago!
DLS never had the opportunity to win a state championship until last year. They could not help the way the system was set up. The closest they could do was play the top teams from So Cal.
In the last 15 years they have played top teams from Southern California at least 12 times and have a 8-4 record if memory serves. All losses coming since 2004 - twice to Mission Viejo, Once to one of the Clovis schools and once to CC) BTW they beat MV last year and are 2-0 vs LBP.
Oaks Christian barely won their State Championship game against a lower level Northern California team and now that their talented group has moved on to college we will see how the program fares but thanks for your opinion.
With all that said Texas does need to do somthin about their playoff system, for SLC and Trinity to have met for the first time last year was ridiculous. That should've happened long time ago!
Please explain. I really don't think you know enough about Texas football. How would you change the playoffs? If you understand the facts you would never say what you just did.
Here are the facts:
1. There is no way to combine all of 5A in one bracket. As it is, playoffs end the weekend before Christmas. Only a couple of states have as long of a season as Texas, most have a shorter season.
2. Texas could form 6A and/or 7A like some states have done. If this had happened, SLC and Trinity would still not play. SLC is a "smallish" 5A school and Trinity is larger.
3. If you are talking about the regular season, I can explain that, but suffice it to say that it would be very, very unlikely that SLC would have scheduled Trinity for several reasons. It may happen in the near future, but prior to now there is pretty much no way a game between Trinity and SLC would have happened.
My bad, I guess I shouldn't really critic the system (which I am familiar with). You're right, I guess it's all about fitting that match up in their regular season. Being from a city in the Texhoma region (Lawton, OK) which is about 20 miles from the Texas border, I grew up playin Texas teams frequently. But the one thing that always confused me growin up, was the classifications. A 6A school in Oklahoma is equivalent to a 5A school in Texas. Now if I'm correct every classification in Texas, (5A) in this case, is broken into two halves divisions 1 & 2? So the problem is SLC is/was in Div. 2 every year until last year and Trinity has been/is in Div. 1 ,right?
BTW I would've loved to see SLC come up here to Columbus and beat Colerain back in 05'. I was so disappointed in the representation Herb got to represent our region. Texas High did what they needed to against a weak opponent in Findlay, but I wanted to see them play one of Ohios top programs. I know SLC turned him down, but Trinity or Lufkin would've been nice to see. I don't think traveling to Ohio would hurt the program, but one thing it will do is let people up north see in person what Texas High Football is really all about.
JazzyJeff
05-12-07, 10:17 AM
Where did I say I lost respect for Ohio?
Right about here:
But ultimately no one in Cincinatti could give a rat's *** to see possibly the best QB in the country. The atmosphere for the Texas High game was horrible. I estimate 1,000 by halftime. In my eyes, it damaged Ohio's reputation as a high school football state.
Ultimately, you're upset that Cincituckians didn't salivate at watching Mallett and the team you support. There aren't many OOS high school teams that will make neutral fans miss their own team's game on a Friday night, let alone one when the "local" team isn't actually local (or good).
Plaindriver
05-12-07, 11:24 AM
DLS never had the opportunity to win a state championship until last year. They could not help the way the system was set up. The closest they could do was play the top teams from So Cal.
In the last 15 years they have played top teams from Southern California at least 12 times and have a 8-4 record if memory serves. All losses coming since 2004 - twice to Mission Viejo, Once to one of the Clovis schools and once to CC) BTW they beat MV last year and are 2-0 vs LBP.
Oaks Christian barely won their State Championship game against a lower level Northern California team and now that their talented group has moved on to college we will see how the program fares but thanks for your opinion.
Just to clarify the record, starting in 04, the Spartans have lost 6 games, and tied 2. Losses and ties, in order, were to Bellvue, Clovis West, Palma(tie),
Mission Viejo, and Clayton Valley (tie); 05: Clovis West and Mission Viejo;and for 06: Canyon COuntry in the final state game. So, in their worst stretch in the past 25 yrs or so, they were 8-3-2, 11-2, and 13-1 or 32-6-2. Of course if you go back a few more yrs, its 183-6-2. Still, not all that bad.
Bordertown
05-12-07, 12:48 PM
Right about here:
Ultimately, you're upset that Cincituckians didn't salivate at watching Mallett and the team you support. There aren't many OOS high school teams that will make neutral fans miss their own team's game on a Friday night, let alone one when the "local" team isn't actually local (or good).
Wrong on Mallett - it was Cincy's loss. I was disappointed that Cinci did not support the event. I do think it hurts Ohio's reputation as supporting high school football. That is alot different from losing respect.
The Herbie is billed at being the best high school football event in the country (and probably was), but local support was nonexistent. I have heard all the reasons. 42,000 for 9 games (all sites), with DLS, Lakeland, & Byrnes appearing, is pathetic. Texas High was not a draw other than the obvious Texas vs Ohio debate and Mallett an Elite 11 QB. Drop the Texas High vs Findley game and you have 41,000 for 8 games - Still not too sporty. And with the exception of Colerain the rest were Saturday (quess 35,000 for 7 games.)
I will venture the paid attendence for SLC vs Northwestern will exceed 15,000. The Dallas Morning News will promote the event. I am not sure how much advance coverage the Enquirer gave the Herbie.
consumerman
05-12-07, 02:16 PM
DLS never had the opportunity to win a state championship until last year. They could not help the way the system was set up. The closest they could do was play the top teams from So Cal.
In the last 15 years they have played top teams from Southern California at least 12 times and have a 8-4 record if memory serves. All losses coming since 2004 - twice to Mission Viejo, Once to one of the Clovis schools and once to CC) BTW they beat MV last year and are 2-0 vs LBP.
Oaks Christian barely won their State Championship game against a lower level Northern California team and now that their talented group has moved on to college we will see how the program fares but thanks for your opinion.
DLS has lost twice to Clovis West, 30-12 in 2004 and 7-0 in 2005, the shutout broke a national record for consecutive games scored. DLS had not been shut out since 1979, Coach Lad's first year.
Actually CLovis West is not considered a SoCal team, although they play in the SoCal Basketball Tournament of Champions, they are considered a central California team.
Here is DLS record against SoCal teams
Rancho Buena Vista 2-0
Mater Dei 4-0
LB Poly 2-0
Bishop Amat 1-0
La Costa Canyon 2-0
Mission Viejo 1-2
Canyon 0-1
TOTAL 14-3
all losses coming one per year since 2004
during the streak years, DLS was 11-0 and NEVER TRAILED at any point in any game
consumerman
05-12-07, 03:45 PM
DLS has lost twice to Clovis West, 30-12 in 2004 and 7-0 in 2005, the shutout broke a national record for consecutive games scored. DLS had not been shut out since 1979, Coach Lad's first year.
Actually CLovis West is not considered a SoCal team, although they play in the SoCal Basketball Tournament of Champions, they are considered a central California team.
Here is DLS record against SoCal teams
Rancho Buena Vista 2-0
Mater Dei 4-0
LB Poly 2-0
Bishop Amat 1-0
La Costa Canyon 2-0
Mission Viejo 1-2
Canyon 0-1
TOTAL 14-3
all losses coming one per year since 2004
during the streak years, DLS was 11-0 and NEVER TRAILED at any point in any game
in the 2004 Mission Viejo game, MV entered as the #3 ranked team in the country, the game was tied 14-14 late in the 4th Q and DLS had possession deep inside MV territory. MV was lucky (almost miraculous) to escape with a 17-14 victory
In 2005, MV was rated #2 in the country (some polls had them at #1), DLS led 26-22 to start the 4th Q but was worn down by MV 260 lb. running back and MV won 36-26
in the 2004 Mission Viejo game, MV entered as the #3 ranked team in the country, the game was tied 14-14 late in the 4th Q and DLS had possession deep inside MV territory. MV was lucky (almost miraculous) to escape with a 17-14 victory
In 2005, MV was rated #2 in the country (some polls had them at #1), DLS led 26-22 to start the 4th Q but was worn down by MV 260 lb. running back and MV won 36-26
Consumerman, what were the dates of the games?
I can tell you the exact ratings that MV had coming in to the games in both 2004 and 2005.
You may be exagerating the 2005 rankings of MV. At the end of the 2005 season MV was ranked 20th by iHigh and 20th by USAToday. None of the other polls had them ranked.
At the end of the 2004 season, MV was ranked 2nd in the country overall and ranked 2nd (3 polls), 3rd (2 polls) and 4th (2 polls).
consumerman
05-12-07, 07:49 PM
At the end of the 2004 season, MV was ranked 2nd in the country overall and ranked 2nd (3 polls), 3rd (2 polls) and 4th (2 polls).
The MV coach publicly said the narrow ecape win over DLs worse team in 20 years is what probably cost them the national championship.
Again DLS was tied 14-14 and had the ball deep in MV territory (like at the 20) and had a 4th and 1 but did not convert. There was less than 2 minutes in the game (possibly less than 1 minute). MV hist a couple of plays and kicked a long FG to win the game. They were one of the best teams in the nation that year.
I believe in 2005, MV was rated #1 in at least 1 poll and in the top 3 in most polls all year until a loss in either the second or third round of the playoffs.
The date of the DLS game (I have on tape) is 10/08/2005
I believe both teams scored first on safeties for a 2-2 score. De La Salle soph QB was in his first start and threw a key pick for a return TD to let MV tie the game early in the third Q. Despite this, DLS led 26-22 going into Q4 but were outscored 14-0 as MV wore down the Spartans with a big FB.
Again, I am not disputing final rankings, but at the time of the game, at least 1 poll had MV #1 and all polls had them in the top 3.
consumerman
05-12-07, 07:57 PM
I am watching the opening segemnt of the 2005 game.
The announcer says MV is the #1 ranked team in the country.
(He also mentions highly ranked SLC, Lakeland and Warren Central)
The MV coach publicly said the narrow ecape win over DLs worse team in 20 years is what probably cost them the national championship.
That statement is false, but it's the kind of thing that coaches say. If you look at the ratings for each week in 2004, you will find that MV started ranked 5th-10th and moved up through the year. They were never close to being #1 (the gap between #2 and #1 was large). One poll had Colerain #1. Five polls had SLC #1. One poll had Independence Charlotte #1.
consumerman
05-12-07, 08:34 PM
That statement is false, but it's the kind of thing that coaches say. If you look at the ratings for each week in 2004, you will find that MV started ranked 5th-10th and moved up through the year. They were never close to being #1 (the gap between #2 and #1 was large). One poll had Colerain #1. Five polls had SLC #1. One poll had Independence Charlotte #1.
all good teams
the point is DLS in its worst year almost beat MV in its best year, and MV finished in the top 2 or 3 in the country. MV was lucky to win in 2004. They earned the victory in 2005 by punishing DLS in the 4th Q with their D1 recruit.
It was not a cakewalk for MV in either year, and DLS hardly became a loser. They also lost the first game of the year in 2005 7-0 to a team that was ranked in the top 25.
I am watching the opening segemnt of the 2005 game.
The announcer says MV is the #1 ranked team in the country.
(He also mentions highly ranked SLC, Lakeland and Warren Central)
I guess if you pick and choose which poll you want to look at, the announcer's statement is true. PrepNation had MV #1 for a while, but that was the ONLY poll.
After a few games into the 2005 season, SLC was #1 and maintained that ranking until the end. By the end of 2005, SLC was #1 by the largest margin in recent memory.
consumerman
05-12-07, 08:36 PM
I guess if you pick and choose which poll you want to look at, the announcer's statement is true. PrepNation had MV #1 for a while, but that was the ONLY poll.
After a few games into the 2005 season, SLC was #1 and maintained that ranking until the end.
so I guess my memory was correct again
can you confirm their playoff loss, was it to Hart?
so I guess my memory was correct again
can you confirm their playoff loss, was it to Hart?
Yep, they lost to Hart 24-12 on December 2.
I guess if you pick and choose which poll you want to look at, the announcer's statement is true. PrepNation had MV #1 for a while, but that was the ONLY poll.
After a few games into the 2005 season, SLC was #1 and maintained that ranking until the end. By the end of 2005, SLC was #1 by the largest margin in recent memory.
This is a extraordinarily silly and myopic post in my opinion. It is common and pretty much the norm for announcers to list the highest ranking for the teams involved.
The only difference I know of are games on ABC/ESPN which typically only references the ESPN poll for obvious reasons.
To add on this, this was a HS game, where there are several polls and was probably broadcast by CA Fox affiliates.
Did you really expect them to say, "MV is ranked #1 in the Nation, but ONLY by one ranking service. The remainder have someone else, not in CA and schools the majority of the audience knows little to nothing about."
This is a extraordinarily silly and myopic post in my opinion. It is common and pretty much the norm for announcers to list the highest ranking for the teams involved.
The only difference I know of are games on ABC/ESPN which typically only references the ESPN poll for obvious reasons.
To add on this, this was a HS game, where there are several polls and was probably broadcast by CA Fox affiliates.
Did you really expect them to say, "MV is ranked #1 in the Nation, but ONLY by one ranking service. The remainder have someone else, not in CA and schools the majority of the audience knows little to nothing about."
No, I would expect the announcers to say nothing about MV ranked #1. In my experience in Texas, that's the norm.
I could understand if the announcers used the USA Today poll because that is the most widely used and most widely quoted. I would NOT expect the announcers pick an obscure poll and ignore all of the rest. That's pretty shallow of them, IMO.
Bordertown
05-14-07, 09:55 AM
Texas announcers do not focus on "national" rankings. Instead they use the AP(Texas), Dave Campbell Football, Harris Poll, etc to either hype their team or their opponent's state rankings. At most Texas schools, they look at a national ranking and say "that's nice" and move on. To the average Texas High school fan the names of Lakeland, Byrnes, Evangel, DLS, Mission Viejo, Colerain, St. Ig, Catheral, Independence, Hoover, John Curtis, etc... mean very little.
The names in Texas are Odessa Permian, Lamarque, Woodlands, North Shore, Converse Judson, Westlake, Stephenville, Celina, Lufkin, Highland Park, Ennis, Calallen, Southlake Carroll, etc... Those are the schools that Texas fans use as a measure.
Chicago
05-14-07, 10:03 AM
If an obscure poll has a local team number one, I think the poll pretty quickly ceases to be obscure locally.
No, I would expect the announcers to say nothing about MV ranked #1. In my experience in Texas, that's the norm.
I could understand if the announcers used the USA Today poll because that is the most widely used and most widely quoted. I would NOT expect the announcers pick an obscure poll and ignore all of the rest. That's pretty shallow of them, IMO.
FYI-the poll that the Dallas Morning News uses is the PrepNation Poll. In the HS section every Tuesday. Does that make it more or less "obscure"?
Should we use every poll imaginable for the '05 season, or are you happy with using the USA Today?
Reading this Dragon website, they seem proud of the "three-peat", "Back to Back to Back". You probably need to get with them and inform the that the most widely used and most widely quoted poll did not rank them #1 in '05 and they need to fix the site, or are those polls only "obscure" when they do not have the Dragons #1?
http://www.leaguelineup.com/welcome.asp?cmenuid=1&url=04dragonsfootball
consumerman
05-14-07, 11:59 AM
why is everyone jumping on SLC Dad?
tee hee
FYI-the poll that the Dallas Morning News uses is the PrepNation Poll. In the HS section every Tuesday. Does that make it more or less "obscure"?
Should we use every poll imaginable for the '05 season, or are you happy with using the USA Today?
Reading this Dragon website, they seem proud of the "three-peat", "Back to Back to Back". You probably need to get with them and inform the that the most widely used and most widely quoted poll did not rank them #1 in '05 and they need to fix the site, or are those polls only "obscure" when they do not have the Dragons #1?
http://www.leaguelineup.com/welcome.asp?cmenuid=1&url=04dragonsfootball
Pied, I guess if you seach hard enough, you will find something to criticize. Sheesh.
Go back and read what I posted. I didn't criticize the announcers in the first post, but I correctly pointed out that only one poll (out of 7) had MV number one. I'm wondering why YOU jumped all over that post. They DID "pick and choose". That's EXACTLY what they did as I posted (but I didn't say it was good or bad).
Regarding the "Dragon Website" that you cite, it is a private website done by a fan. If you had followed that website you would know that even it didn't say that SLC was #1 until most of the polls said so and until SLC had a legitimate claim (the most lgeitimate claim) to be #1.
Pied, I guess if you seach hard enough, you will find something to criticize. Sheesh.
Go back and read what I posted. I didn't criticize the announcers in the first post, but I correctly pointed out that only one poll (out of 7) had MV number one. I'm wondering why YOU jumped all over that post. They DID "pick and choose". That's EXACTLY what they did as I posted (but I didn't say it was good or bad).
True, but I think your point was clear. The point was one that they "chose" seek an obscure poll that ranked MV #1. You in fact clarified this yourself when you made this statement.
I could understand if the announcers used the USA Today poll because that is the most widely used and most widely quoted. I would NOT expect the announcers pick an obscure poll and ignore all of the rest. That's pretty shallow of them, IMO.
So, did you woudl seem to be criticziing them, if you thought their choice was shallow, correct?
Am I wrong in intrepeting that in your first post, when you in fact clarified that in the second? What am I missing?
Chicago
05-14-07, 01:55 PM
Pied,
I think you need to take an average of all of SLCDad's posts. If you just pick one, it might not make any sense at all.
True, but I think your point was clear. The point was one that they "chose" seek an obscure poll that ranked MV #1. You in fact clarified this yourself when you made this statement.
So, did you woudl seem to be criticziing them, if you thought their choice was shallow, correct?
Am I wrong in intrepeting that in your first post, when you in fact clarified that in the second? What am I missing?
Pied, what is your point?
Why did you start this pissing match?
Frankly, I have no desire to debate such a stupid topic with you. I regret responding to you in ths first place. This has got to be one of the stupidist debates I've seen in a long time on any board.
Give me a break.
Pied, what is your point?
Why did you start this pissing match?
Frankly, I have no desire to debate such a stupid topic with you. I regret responding to you in ths first place. This has got to be one of the stupidist debates I've seen in a long time on any board.
Give me a break.
I really do not understand why you are so upset. You made a point:
I guess if you pick and choose which poll you want to look at, the announcer's statement is true. PrepNation had MV #1 for a while, but that was the ONLY poll.
You clarified the crazy notion that an announcer would make that claim by stating:
I could understand if the announcers used the USA Today poll because that is the most widely used and most widely quoted. I would NOT expect the announcers pick an obscure poll and ignore all of the rest. That's pretty shallow of them, IMO.
All of this comes from teh discussion of DLS SOS in '05.
consumerman made this point:
In 2005, MV was rated #2 in the country (some polls had them at #1), DLS led 26-22 to start the 4th Q but was worn down by MV 260 lb. running back and MV won 36-26
To which you countered:
Consumerman, what were the dates of the games?
I can tell you the exact ratings that MV had coming in to the games in both 2004 and 2005.
You may be exagerating the 2005 rankings of MV. At the end of the 2005 season MV was ranked 20th by iHigh and 20th by USAToday. None of the other polls had them ranked.
So presented with evidence, you now discount the poll and support another poll.
Bottom line, it appears to me that you are making a poor case to support an invalid statement of yours. Again, what am I missing?
consumerman
05-14-07, 03:34 PM
I think Dad had a legitimate question as at the end of the season, MV had dropped in the rankings due to their playoff loss (similar to DLS in 2006)
The point is way off the thread, but anyway DLS has a VG record against SoCal teams over the years, and even in their 3 losses (in last 3 years), at least they were to very highly nationally ranked teams
MV was a true national power in both 2004 and 2005, they seemed lucky to escape with a win in 2004 and powered their way to a hard fought come from behind victory over DLS in 2005. Those are two of DLS total of 6 losses since 1991.
Otheres were to national top ten Bellevue in 2004
CLovis West in 2004 and 2005
and national top 15 Canyon in 2006
6 losses 16 years
all to extremely high quality teams
and does not mention their victories against similar teams like LB Poly, Mater Dei, etc.
Bottom line, it appears to me that you are making a poor case to support an invalid statement of yours. Again, what am I missing?
Frankly, I don't think you have any idea about the rankings in 2005.
My point is that saying MV was #1 is exagerated (big time). You have to really stretch the truth to say the MV was #1.
Freeman, iHigh, StudentSports, TonyBianco, and USAToday ALL did NOT rank MV #1 in 2005. NOT EVER. In fact, the computers had MV at the bottom of the top 25. PrepNation ranked MN #1 for ONLY MV's first 5 games. After that PrepNation dropped them. The week before MV lost (their 13th game) NONE of the polls had then #1.
It's an amazing stretch of the truth to say MV was #1 at any point of the season in 2005.
consumerman
05-14-07, 05:47 PM
Frankly, I don't think you have any idea about the rankings in 2005.
My point is that saying MV was #1 is exagerated (big time). You have to really stretch the truth to say the MV was #1.
Freeman, iHigh, StudentSports, TonyBianco, and USAToday ALL did NOT rank MV #1 in 2005. NOT EVER. In fact, the computers had MV at the bottom of the top 25. PrepNation ranked MN #1 for ONLY MV's first 5 games. After that PrepNation dropped them. The week before MV lost (their 13th game) NONE of the polls had then #1.
It's an amazing stretch of the truth to say MV was #1 at any point of the season in 2005.
HERE IS MY ORIGINAL QUOTE A LA 2005 MV:
In 2005, MV was rated #2 in the country (some polls had them at #1), DLS led 26-22 to start the 4th Q but was worn down by MV 260 lb. running back and MV won 36-26
The main point of the post is
1) MV was one of the teams DLS lost to
2) they were ranked #3 at the time of the 2004 game and #2 at the 2005 game
3) there was at least 1 confirmation that at least 1 poll had them rated #1
I dont think it gets any clearer than that
HERE IS MY ORIGINAL QUOTE A LA 2005 MV:
In 2005, MV was rated #2 in the country (some polls had them at #1), DLS led 26-22 to start the 4th Q but was worn down by MV 260 lb. running back and MV won 36-26
The main point of the post is
1) MV was one of the teams DLS lost to
2) they were ranked #3 at the time of the 2004 game and #2 at the 2005 game
3) there was at least 1 confirmation that at least 1 poll had them rated #1
I dont think it gets any clearer than that
I agree.
If anybody is interested, you can get the rankings for all of the polls (or almost all) for each week of the season for each school at Calpreps. For example, here are the MV rankings for every week of the season in 2004 and 2005.
Click link and then go down to #31 and click on MV.
2005: http://calpreps.com/cgi-bin/2005/polls_view.pl
Click link and go to #2 and click on MV.
2004: http://calpreps.com/cgi-bin/2004/polls_view.pl
(Pied: Take a look at these links. You will see everything I posted regarding the MV rankings is true.)
fiveoaks
05-14-07, 08:37 PM
is slcdad a lawyer?..:help:
DLSfanNW
05-14-07, 10:04 PM
pretty tough to get the last word on Dad.
Chicago
05-15-07, 06:28 AM
If SLCDad is a lawyer, I hope he defends himself if he ever gets in trouble.
If SLCDad is a lawyer, I hope he defends himself if he ever gets in trouble.
Actually I have a small investment firm.
Another poster started a pissing match and, frankly, I regret even responding to him the first time.
I agree.
If anybody is interested, you can get the rankings for all of the polls (or almost all) for each week of the season for each school at Calpreps. For example, here are the MV rankings for every week of the season in 2004 and 2005.
2005: http://calpreps.com/cgi-bin/2005/polls_view_team.pl?team=Mission_Viejo_(CA)
2004: http://calpreps.com/cgi-bin/2004/polls_view_team.pl?team=Mission_Viejo_(CA)
(Pied: Take a look at these links. You will see everything I posted regarding the MV rankings is true.)
Your '05 link does not work. It lists their record at 0-0 each week of the season.
Here is the link to the PrepNation poll for the week of 10/10/05. Mission Viejo is #1, after beating DLS in the game consumerman was talking about. They were jumped by SLC the following week when SLC beat Ryan.
http://prepnation.com/poll/poll.cfm?poll=1&year=2005&week=9
Another poster started a pissing match and, frankly, I regret even responding to him the first time.
I still do not understand why you are so defensive. You made a statement that appears to me to call out announcers for not bowing to all that is green when it is very common for announcers to use the highest ranking of involved teams and report that. I am not certain, but I would bet that the announcers in the '05 SLC/Katy game made reference to SLC being #1 when the USAToday poll did not have them #1. Just a hunch.
Chicago
05-15-07, 07:55 AM
It didn't start out as a big investment firm, did it?
Your '05 link does not work. It lists their record at 0-0 each week of the season.
I still do not understand why you are so defensive. You made a statement that appears to me to call out announcers for not bowing to all that is green when it is very common for announcers to use the highest ranking of involved teams and report that. I am not certain, but I would bet that the announcers in the '05 SLC/Katy game made reference to SLC being #1 when the USAToday poll did not have them #1. Just a hunch.
I believe I have fixed the links. You can get the week by week rankings for any team by clicking on the team.
I'm not defensive at all. The fact remains, you have to be pretty selective about the data you use if you call Mission Viejo #1 at any time during that season.
You mention the SLC/Katy game. I've got it recorded on my DVR. Yes, the announcers discuss the national rankings. They mention most of the national polls. Imagine that.
You mention the SLC/Katy game. I've got it recorded on my DVR. Yes, the announcers discuss the national rankings. They mention most of the national polls. Imagine that.
So they mentioned they were #2 in the USAToday?
So they mentioned they were #2 in the USAToday?Yep. They put a graphic on the screen showing the ranking in most (maybe all) of the national polls.
Yep. They put a graphic on the screen showing the ranking in most (maybe all) of the national polls.
Interesting. I'll have to go back and see that.
I wonder why The Star Telegram and Morning News don't follow suit?
I wonder why The Star Telegram and Morning News don't follow suit?
Think about it.
Would you expect any newspaper to publish the rankings done by another newspaper? Would you expect a newspaper to allocate enough space to publish seven national high school rankings? I wouldn't.
Think about it.
Would you expect any newspaper to publish the rankings done by another newspaper? Would you expect a newspaper to allocate enough space to publish seven national high school rankings? I wouldn't.
I assume you missed this information from the Dallas Morning News discussin the USAToday's rankings and even about articles in another paper.
Got an e-mail from John Frow of Millennium Sports , and it looks like USA Today has been authorized to carry the Millennium Sports broadcast of the Southlake Carroll-Euless Trinity game via Internet.
The game will be featured on the USA Today main sports page as well as the High School Sports page on Friday.
The pre-game show is set to air at 12:20 p.m. Carroll is No. 5 and Trinity is No. 16 in the USA Today Super 25 national prep football rankings.
Interestingly enough the above excerpt included links to the USAToday.
Finally, Southlake Carroll has moved up to No. 3 in the nation thanks to a loss by No. 2 Hoover (Ala.) last week. Carroll trails Lakeland (Fla.) and swimming capital of the world Mission Viejo (Calif.) in the USA Today rankings.
Dodge has quickly become a commodity on the coaching market because of his success at Carroll, which won state championships in 2002, 2004 and 2005 in addition to winning the USA Today national title in 2004 and the Prepnation.com title in 2005.
I like the last one. They mention which ones they won, but there is no mention of other teams. Wonder why?
I remember seeing most of that.
Your attempt to deflect the point won't work. Referring to rankings from various sources in the context of an article on a different topic isn't the same as publishing the rankings themselves.
The fact remains, I wouldn't expect a newspaper to publish the rankings done by another paper each week (some do it however). I also wouldn't expect them to allocate the space to publish all of the national rankings each week (none do it).
Bordertown
05-15-07, 12:52 PM
Getting Back on the Original Purpose of the thread, the incompetence of the promoter has reared its ugly head again. Apparently the Hoover game was scheduled on Sunday and the AHSAA will not allow Hoover to play on Sunday.
DLSfanNW
05-15-07, 01:21 PM
I am still unclear what Consumerman posted that was incorrect. Can you please explain?
I am still unclear what Consumerman posted that was incorrect. Can you please explain?
Here you go.
consumnerman:
In 2005, MV was rated #2 in the country (some polls had them at #1), DLS led 26-22 to start the 4th Q but was worn down by MV 260 lb. running back and MV won 36-26
SLCDad:
You may be exagerating the 2005 rankings of MV. At the end of the 2005 season MV was ranked 20th by iHigh and 20th by USAToday. None of the other polls had them ranked.
consumnerman:
I am watching the opening segemnt of the 2005 game.
The announcer says MV is the #1 ranked team in the country.
(He also mentions highly ranked SLC, Lakeland and Warren Central)
SLCDad:
I guess if you pick and choose which poll you want to look at, the announcer's statement is true. PrepNation had MV #1 for a while, but that was the ONLY poll.
SLCDad clarified the above statement:
I could understand if the announcers used the USA Today poll because that is the most widely used and most widely quoted. I would NOT expect the announcers pick an obscure poll and ignore all of the rest. That's pretty shallow of them, IMO.
The bottom line is that MV was ranked #1 by only one poll and that ranking lasted only through their first 5 games.
I thought the announcer was exaggerating a bit. I still do. It's a very thin claim.
That's not exactly the rankings we should expect from "the #1 team in the country."
(Later, MV lost and ended the season with only two polls including them in their Top 25.)
DLSfanNW
05-15-07, 03:20 PM
MV was ranked #1
Thanks for the clarification
yallerjacket
05-15-07, 04:03 PM
Getting Back on the Original Purpose of the thread, the incompetence of the promoter has reared its ugly head again. Apparently the Hoover game was scheduled on Sunday and the AHSAA will not allow Hoover to play on Sunday.
I don't see how you can put that on the promoter. Sounds like the incompetence of the AHSAA has reared it's ugly head. From what I hear, there wasn't a rule on the books about playing on Sundays. If that's the case, why wouldn't they schedule the Hoover game on Sunday?
Chicago
05-15-07, 04:03 PM
If I knew how to put up the dancing banana for DLSfanNW I would.
Chicago
05-15-07, 04:07 PM
And is the announcer supposed to be faulted for saying MV was number one in week one when that only lasted for five weeks?
Some announcers said USC was number one in 2005 and then USC ended up losing to Texas. So how could they ever say USC was number one? Just a terrible job by the announcers, I guess.
Bordertown
05-16-07, 11:53 AM
I don't see how you can put that on the promoter. Sounds like the incompetence of the AHSAA has reared it's ugly head. From what I hear, there wasn't a rule on the books about playing on Sundays. If that's the case, why wouldn't they schedule the Hoover game on Sunday?
Why is the AHSAA incompetent? The promoter failed to do proper due deligence. If you are doing an event like "Ohio vs USA Challenge", you would contact the state agency to verify there are no smoking guns. Hoover as part of their negotiations should have also contacted AHSAA, so they are not innocent.
I understand how the confusion created, but it could have been avoided. This is the second example of a lack of due diligence (contact the state governing body) blowing up in the promoter's face. The third problem was making promises and reneging.
fiveoaks
05-16-07, 07:06 PM
If I knew how to put up the dancing banana for DLSfanNW I would.
i cracked up when i read it...and again when i saw what you said..
getting one in on slcdad...priceless
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.