Whitmer's leading scorer played with 5 fouls in 4Q of D1 Regional Final

 
Maybe a little home cookin for Whitmer. Questionable intentional foul and technical foul on the visiting team in the 2nd half as well.
Regardless, Whitmer did what they had to do to get it done and they are a top tier team. Well coached by Coach Stacey.
 
tcgobucks said:
Fairly certain that the "home book" isn't official in a Regional game. OHSAA has the stats computerized and provides the official scorekeeper. Whitmer's book isn't the "official" book
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Also, Whitmer was the “away team” in the contest. But either way there is an official score book I am almost certain. More than likely the ref assigned the foul to the wrong player the book wrote down what the ref gave them.
 
DytnBballFan said:
Where were the Garfield coaches on this one? Sorry, but if your bench isn't tracking the other teams fouls, then you deserve what you get. That's basic bench management. And even worse, it was the other teams best player. If no one on staff caught that, then I have no sympathy.
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I agree. If you're on top of it, get clarification and figure it out.
 
419Jester said:
Also, Whitmer was the “away team” in the contest. But either way there is an official score book I am almost certain. More than likely the ref assigned the foul to the wrong player the book wrote down what the ref gave them.
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Lol....didn't even consider that......I just assumed that if Johnson is going to complain about it that Whitmer was the "home team" lol. Also, did Johnson or any of his other coaches not know that the kid had 4 fouls? In most cases if you know the other team's best kid has 4 fouls you are working to get him his fifth. Once they called it why wouldn't Garfield's coaches have questioned it right away.
 
From what I have seen at these tournament games, both teams keep a score book + there is the official score book managed by an official with the black-and-white striped shirt. I have seen them cross-check each other. Apparently Garfield Heights did not
 
The most that could come out of this dialogue is for the remaining teams to be on top of player fouls and other stats throughout the next two games. Something that should already be in mind. Think it’s time to move on from this discussion. Whitmer is playing in the Final 4 and that’s, no pun intended, final.
Loved GH this year. Good luck to the seniors. I think the 3 starters will have good to great college careers.
 
On the court when it happened, the Garfield players were calling out that it was his 5th foul. The Garfield bench and staff were aware. The Garfield coach had already received a tech early in the half, and was told to stay in his seat by the refs. They had a short lease to argue this. All that said, likely an honest mistake by the officials and or official scorer.
 
Unlimited Potential said:
On the court when it happened, the Garfield players were calling out that it was his 5th foul. The Garfield bench and staff were aware. The Garfield coach had already received a tech early in the half, and was told to stay in his seat by the refs. They had a short lease to argue this. All that said, likely an honest mistake by the officials and or official scorer.
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The game announcer would have announced who the foul was on over the PA. If he didn't say it was #5 on West then it wasn't called on West.....it seems pretty simple. If he would have said "Foul on West.....his 5th" I highly doubt he would have checked back into the game later lol
 
tcgobucks said:
The game announcer would have announced who the foul was on over the PA. If he didn't say it was #5 on West then it wasn't called on West.....it seems pretty simple. If he would have said "Foul on West.....his 5th" I highly doubt he would have checked back into the game later lol
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It wasn't his 5th foul in the scorebook. They gave his 4th foul to another player earlier in the quarter. So when he got the last foul, it was his 4th foul in the scorebook, but the players on Garfield thought it was his 5th at that time. (Which it actually was, except it wasn't lol, so not actually simple).
 
Ultimately either the ref or scorer made a mistake, which I don't believe was intentional. This thread seems to want to push the blame elsewhere, which I guess is the american way now. good day
 
I was there and noticed it right away. Player who committed the foul was #2 and official came over to the table holding up index finger on each hand. Foul was announced on #11
 
As mentioned above, yes, there is an official scorer who very often does not want to hear from the team score keepers, or perhaps literally can not hear them in a loud environment. The lack of counting correctly is entirely on the official scorekeeper. An official may have a hunch that it was his fifth foul and may even come over to the table and inquire about it, but an official will never overrule the scorer, unless both other books agree with him. In tournament games so long as one other book supports the official keepers finding, that will rule the day. For very good reason the official scorer often will confidently plow ahead not listening to or answering questions. The key is to keep track of every foul that gets put up on the board and make sure it is assigned properly, Here is a scenario where that becomes difficult, the player commits his third foul say early in the second quarter. This is only the teams second foul and it is a non shooting foul. His coach reacts quickly and pulls him from the floor entering a substitute. The scorekeepers get busy entering the sub into their books, and by the time they look up to see if the foul was assigned correctly the board operator has already pulled the players number from the board and the sub is inserted on the board. Now it is much more difficult to make sure the proper player was assigned the foul, especially if the coach subbed two or three players at the same time. You can see how a player heading to the bench can effectively "hide" from the two teams scorers who the foul was incorrectly assigned to in this situation.

My experience in such matters doubts any of the scorekeepers intentionally screwed up. The team scorekeepers are going to have the best idea of who committed the foul as neither teams players or numbers are generally familiar to a neutral scorekeeper. If the official does not hold their signal properly, sometimes difference between a 3 or 4 are very difficult to read.
 
FlightCrew said:
I was there and noticed it right away. Player who committed the foul was #2 and official came over to the table holding up index finger on each hand. Foul was announced on #11
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How did GF heights not notice that at the time? They had to know that West had 4.....and if he committed the foul there's no way somebody wouldn't have noticed that they announced the wrong name. GH's fans also had to know that West had 4. If they announced it wrong I just can't believe that the place didn't go crazy when they announced the foul was on someone else. So many things about this make no sense.....and I don't think in my 50+ years of watching HS basketball (especially at the tourney level) that I've ever seen this.
 
tcgobucks said:
How did GF heights not notice that at the time? They had to know that West had 4.....and if he committed the foul there's no way somebody wouldn't have noticed that they announced the wrong name. GH's fans also had to know that West had 4. If they announced it wrong I just can't believe that the place didn't go crazy when they announced the foul was on someone else. So many things about this make no sense.....and I don't think in my 50+ years of watching HS basketball (especially at the tourney level) that I've ever seen this.
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No reaction ….
 
FlightCrew said:
No reaction ….
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Cleveland.com just posted an article about it. It says in the article that GH's own scorebook shows West with 4. It also says that the scoreboard never showed West with 5 fouls. He left the game and then came back in a minute later. The fact that nobody challenged it is all on GH. Not sure how an entire coaching staff missed it.
 
www.cleveland.com

OHSAA responds to Garfield Heights-Toledo Whitmer foul discrepancy in boys basketball regional final

Replays cannot challenge the official scorebook once a game is final, according to the OHSAA.
www.cleveland.com www.cleveland.com

Here's the transcript of the Cleveland.com article. Looks like GH's coach Sonny Johnson was hoping to appeal

OHSAA responds to Garfield Heights-Toledo Whitmer foul discrepancy in boys basketball regional final​

COLUMBUS, Ohio — Garfield Heights’ 49-47 loss Saturday to Toledo Whitmer in the OHSAA Division I regional finals at the University of Toledo’s Savage Arena will remain as stands, the Ohio High School Athletic Association said on Tuesday.

Whitmer’s last-second win on a putback at the buzzer came with its leading scorer playing more than the final two minutes with what appeared to be five fouls, which cleveland.com confirmed through its video footage. However, no video replays can challenge the final result.

“At every game, during both the regular-season and postseason tournament, the official scorer keeps the points and fouls, and any challenges or discrepancies must be addressed during the game by the score keepers or coaches of the participating teams,” OHSAA director of communications Tim Stried wrote in a statement. “Once the game ends, the official scorebook is final and video replay is not permitted to change any part of that information or the result of the game.”

Garfield Heights coach Sonny Johnson and athletic director Michael Cruz said earlier in the day they inquired with the OHSAA about what transpired, hoping to appeal the result, as leading scorer Antione West played the final 2:50 after his final foul. West exited the game, but swiftly returned. He provided Whitmer with two free throws at the 1:17 mark and scored a game-high 21 points. He also took the last shot from the perimeter, which his teammates rebounded for the winning basket.

At the time of his last foul in the final three minutes, the scoreboard above the floor counted it as West’s fourth foul. Garfield Heights’ own scorebook also lists West with just four fouls, three in the third quarter and one in the fourth. Three more fouls in the fourth quarter were charged to Elijah McLeod, who wore No. 11. West wore No. 2.

Whitmer (25-2) advances to play Centerville (19-8) on Saturday night in the OHSAA Division I state semifinals. Garfield Heights’ season ends at 25-2 and in the regional finals for a second straight year.
 
tcgobucks said:
How did GF heights not notice that at the time? They had to know that West had 4.....and if he committed the foul there's no way somebody wouldn't have noticed that they announced the wrong name. GH's fans also had to know that West had 4. If they announced it wrong I just can't believe that the place didn't go crazy when they announced the foul was on someone else. So many things about this make no sense.....and I don't think in my 50+ years of watching HS basketball (especially at the tourney level) that I've ever seen this.
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#2 from Whitmer fouled #11 from Garfield. The official (the crew was from the Central District) signaled that the foul was on #11 from Whitmer as FlightCrew pointed out. Whitmer had a #11 on the floor at that point, but he was nowhere near the infraction.

There was a timeout at that point (3:53 left in the 4th). Both Garfield and Whitmer appeared to be trying to get clarification, and it was confirmed (wrongly) that the foul was on Whitmer's #11.
 
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I kept the official book for my hometown school for 35 years. I also did the official book for some district sites for several years. I always, always made eye contact with the official signaling the foul. If I wasn't sure, I asked for a repeat. If I thought the official could've mixed up the number, I called them over. I don't know how many times someone behind me or nearby tried to ask me a question during the official's signal or during the game. I just ignored it. NEVER, NEVER take your eye off the ball.

Unfortunately, there were two league teams that often assigned the home book and/or clock to a student, along with a student at the table keeping stats. I can't even count the amount of times there were conversations during the game about their evening plans, what they were wearing the next day, etc. There were several times they had the score wrong, timeouts wrong, team fouls wrong, or fouls on a player wrong. There were also times that even though I was the away book, the officials stated that I was now the official book
 
D1nwobb said:
#2 from Whitmer fouled #11 from Garfield. The official (the crew was from the Central District) signaled that the foul was on #11 from Whitmer as FlightCrew pointed out. Whitmer had a #11 on the floor at that point, but he was nowhere near the infraction.

There was a timeout at that point (3:53 left in the 4th). Both Garfield and Whitmer appeared to be trying to get clarification, and it was confirmed (wrongly) that the foul was on Whitmer's #11.
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Isn't this the reason they have (or, at least, used to have) the rule that you couldn't have any number over a 5 on a jersey? That way, you couldn't confuse #7 with #25. So, if a ref held up 2 fingers on one hand, then that was #2. And if they held up 1 finger on each hand, then that was #11. I'm not sure if that rule still exists, but it seems like someone missed the call either way.
 
That is still a rule but that rule has no affect on this situation as neither number has a number above 5 in it, as the players are wearing 11 and 2 both legal numbers. The referee messed up and it may have costed Garfield chance at a state championship
Irish60 said:
Isn't this the reason they have (or, at least, used to have) the rule that you couldn't have any number over a 5 on a jersey? That way, you couldn't confuse #7 with #25. So, if a ref held up 2 fingers on one hand, then that was #2. And if they held up 1 finger on each hand, then that was #11. I'm not sure if that rule still exists, but it seems like someone missed the call either way.
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I am my school's scorekeeper for both girls and boys and I am absolutely dumbfounded at how this happened. Each time a foul is reported to us at the table, I'm always making eye contact with the official reporting the foul and I repeat out loud who the foul is on, how many personal fouls that player has, and how many team fouls there are. And then @ halftime....we check fouls, timeouts, points, and who has the possession to start the 3rd quarter.
 
Many years ago rosters would list a home number (even #) and an away number (odd#) for each player. This wouldn't have happened if this was still the case.
 
Ericles said:
I am my school's scorekeeper for both girls and boys and I am absolutely dumbfounded at how this happened. Each time a foul is reported to us at the table, I'm always making eye contact with the official reporting the foul and I repeat out loud who the foul is on, how many personal fouls that player has, and how many team fouls there are. And then @ halftime....we check fouls, timeouts, points, and who has the possession to start the 3rd quarter.
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In your system the only way it gets caught in this scenario is if the ref hears you repeat “fouls on 11” and then he recognizes that he called it on 11 instead of 2. Then he changes his call. All three books had foul on 11 so the error looks to be on the official calling it on the wrong player not a score keeper error.
 
Impalaman said:
Many years ago rosters would list a home number (even #) and an away number (odd#) for each player. This wouldn't have happened if this was still the case.
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How does that address if the ref makes an error and calls a foul on the wrong guy and gives the scorers table the wrong number? That looks like what happened in this case.
 
419Jester said:
In your system the only way it gets caught in this scenario is if the ref hears you repeat “fouls on 11” and then he recognizes that he called it on 11 instead of 2. Then he changes his call. All three books had foul on 11 so the error looks to be on the official calling it on the wrong player not a score keeper error.
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I repeat it for the benefit of us as scorekeepers, not the officials. If I'm certain the official reports the foul on the incorrect player, I would check with the other scorekeeper and say something to that official.
 
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