where's the integrity in high school baseball

[Hometeam]

I don't think a parent should EVER be an "official scorekeeper" (ideally, someone who has played baseball in the past and knows the game should be the statistician, independent of parents and players) - however, if parents want to sit in the stands and keep their own book, that's their right to do so. No one should make a big deal out of it.

The trouble is, baseball is VERY subjective. No two people will agree on things re. baseball 100%.

One of the biggest problems I have seen with scoring baseball is that it's gotten so that kids are so afraid of making errors, that some won't even dive for a ball because they're afraid if their glove touches it and they bobble the play, it will go against them in the stats. And often, it DOES go against them. I've seen kids with near perfect or perfect fielding percentages - and often, the reason their stats look so good is because the kid won't dive for the ball or try and make the play if it looks too difficult. Personally, I think the best ballplayer is the one who gives it his all and will try and make the play no matter if he looks good in the stats or not. Sadly, though, so much importance and emphasis is placed on the stats when often, they don't tell the correct story.

 

[rlentless]

So the solution, eagle, is to have parents keeping score? That is laughable! What do you think would happen if a parent actually kept score? Their sons stats would be hugely inflated!

So a parent couldn't be trusted to keep the book because they may pad the stats to make their player look better, but coaches wouldn't pad the stats to make their program look better? The best solution would be a neutral third party, but that's just not feasible.

What's really laughable are the programs that do have a couple girls that, prior to the season, knew nothing about the game. They get a crash course in scoring, and then for everything other than a routine play they either ask one of the coaches or one of the players. It goes like this:

team manager: "hey number 8, when the shortstop kicked your grounder back to the mound, was that a hit or an error on the shortstop?"

number 8: "I smoked that ball and it took a bad hop, you can't give the shortstop an error on that one."

And, you can just reverse that scenario for when number 8 is out on the field and boots a routine grounder.

I have no suggestions on how to do it, but it needs to be more standardized and scrutinized more closely.

 

[DiscoStu]

So a parent couldn't be trusted to keep the book because they may pad the stats to make their player look better, but coaches wouldn't pad the stats to make their program look better?

If there was a coach that inflated a couple players averages, that would not make the program look any better. There is one thing that makes or breaks a program and that is WINS - LOSSES. You can have 5 guys hitting over .600, and a sub-.500 record and that makes your program look even worse.

Wins and losses are the only thing that matters when talking about a successful program.

 

[FI89]

I don't think a parent should EVER be an "official scorekeeper" (ideally, someone who has played baseball in the past and knows the game should be the statistician, independent of parents and players) - however, if parents want to sit in the stands and keep their own book, that's their right to do so. No one should make a big deal out of it.

The trouble is, baseball is VERY subjective. No two people will agree on things re. baseball 100%.

One of the biggest problems I have seen with scoring baseball is that it's gotten so that kids are so afraid of making errors, that some won't even dive for a ball because they're afraid if their glove touches it and they bobble the play, it will go against them in the stats. And often, it DOES go against them. I've seen kids with near perfect or perfect fielding percentages - and often, the reason their stats look so good is because the kid won't dive for the ball or try and make the play if it looks too difficult. Personally, I think the best ballplayer is the one who gives it his all and will try and make the play no matter if he looks good in the stats or not. Sadly, though, so much importance and emphasis is placed on the stats when often, they don't tell the correct story.

I think you are right to a certain extent. I can't say that I see players NOT diving for balls because of a fear of errors, but I get your point, and it's well made.

You are correct in that many scorers don't know how to apply the error scoring standard. Here's an example... My son, a second baseman, in a conference game this year was going back into right field to field a fly ball hit directly into the sun. He lost the ball in the sun coming off the bat, then saw it at the top of it's arc, then lost it again as it came down, he had to shield his eyes to reacquire the ball and the ball dropped over his opposite shoulder. It never touched his glove, and he never saw the ball. They charged him with an error. There is no way I charge a kid with an error on that play. It's simple, the hit ball MUST be routine, if a routine ball hits his glove or goes between his legs, it's an error. If the hit ball is NOT routine or requires out of the ordinary effort to get to the ball... it's a hit, even if it hits his glove.

To me, the biggest risk of scoring mistakes related to errors, are more likely to occur with throwing errors. For example: a runner on 2nd starts to steal 3rd, and the batter bunts the ball to the left side of the infield, the pitcher fields the ball and turns to throw out the runner going to 3rd and the throw is in the dirt or off target and the 3rd baseman catches the ball but the runner was safe at 3rd. Error on the throw or not? It depends on the judgement of the scorer. If the scorer believes the runner would have been safe anyway because of the steal, it would be considered an error in judgement, but not a error in the books (it would be scored a fielder's choice, stolen base, and all runners are safe). If the scorer believes a good throw would have got the runner out then it would be scored an FC, with an error on the throw from the pitcher. Often, the emotion of the moment clouds judgement. This is why I advocate a mandatory official scorer provided by the official's association at each game (paid by the home team just like the umps).

Situations like this is where I think one might see some scoring bias. If the scorer is the parent of a kid that he/she feels is being unfairly treated in preference of the kid that made the error, then he/she might be inclined to score it an error no matter what actually happened.

It happens. :shrug:

 

[eagle9908]

i never said that parents should keep stats. it's about being truthful about the stats that are reported to the repository and other places. believe it or not there are alot of fathers who were very good athletes and do know the game just a much as the coaches and probably have played more baseball than all of them and yes i know who the mvps were it was t.j. sutton and joe monnot!!!

 

[eagle9908]

i'm also not talking about fielding errors its about batting stats!!!!!

 

[Hometeam]

i'm also not talking about fielding errors its about batting stats!!!!!

Why not? Fielding errors are recorded,also. Stats are stats, whether they are defensive or offensive. My point is, even so-called "knowledgeable" baseball types disagree on hits versus errors. And yes, some coaches DO give some players more the benefit of the doubt than others. Which is why some parents might get irritated and decide to keep their own books - maybe they figure they are more objective than many who are designated stat-keepers.

 

[Hometeam]

I think you are right to a certain extent. I can't say that I see players NOT diving for balls because of a fear of errors, but I get your point, and it's well made.

You are correct in that many scorers don't know how to apply the error scoring standard. Here's an example... My son, a second baseman, in a conference game this year was going back into right field to field a fly ball hit directly into the sun. He lost the ball in the sun coming off the bat, then saw it at the top of it's arc, then lost it again as it came down, he had to shield his eyes to reacquire the ball and the ball dropped over his opposite shoulder. It never touched his glove, and he never saw the ball. They charged him with an error. There is no way I charge a kid with an error on that play. It's simple, the hit ball MUST be routine, if a routine ball hits his glove or goes between his legs, it's an error. If the hit ball is NOT routine or requires out of the ordinary effort to get to the ball... it's a hit, even if it hits his glove.

To me, the biggest risk of scoring mistakes related to errors, are more likely to occur with throwing errors. For example: a runner on 2nd starts to steal 3rd, and the batter bunts the ball to the left side of the infield, the pitcher fields the ball and turns to throw out the runner going to 3rd and the throw is in the dirt or off target and the 3rd baseman catches the ball but the runner was safe at 3rd. Error on the throw or not? It depends on the judgement of the scorer. If the scorer believes the runner would have been safe anyway because of the steal, it would be considered an error in judgement, but not a error in the books (it would be scored a fielder's choice, stolen base, and all runners are safe). If the scorer believes a good throw would have got the runner out then it would be scored an FC, with an error on the throw from the pitcher. Often, the emotion of the moment clouds judgement. This is why I advocate a mandatory official scorer provided by the official's association at each game (paid by the home team just like the umps).

Situations like this is where I think one might see some scoring bias. If the scorer is the parent of a kid that he/she feels is being unfairly treated in preference of the kid that made the error, then he/she might be inclined to score it an error no matter what actually happened.

It happens. :shrug:

Good post! I've seen these exact same situations,also.

 

[DiscoStu]

So, you obviously have a beef with Monnot and Sutton winning co-MVP honors. Judging by your previous post, you said one deserved it a lot more than the other. Just curious as to which you would prefer. I know they hit 3-4 in the lineup and were probably the #1-2 pitchers. Knowing that, how could one have had that much better of a season than the other???

 

[monomon]

my guess is that eagle thinks TJ's stats are padded. Who keeps the book for GO? TJ is a Jr and Monnot is a senior, who do you guys think should be mvp, TJ or JM:blush:

 

[cincysportsman]

Ive seen and heard a lot of things worse than padding stats that would make you question the integrity of a coach. Too bad we cant just play the game honestly and stay away from the politics of the game.

 

[rlentless]

Too bad we cant just play the game honestly and stay away from the politics of the game.

Unfortunately, it seems like the ball field where politic-free baseball is played is located right behind the fountain of youth or elsewhere in Fantasyland.

 

[woodpin15]

Don't kid yourself about stat padding. Could anyone believe that perhaps there are "clicks" on high school teams? Those groups that coaches want to do well seem to have higher BA's, less errors, lower ERA's. I've seen stats this year that are a joke. Either the score keeper has no idea what they are doing, or some coaches are really bending the truth. I've seen players named to all league teams that I wouldn't put in to pinch hit. All that stuff is based on stats and has little to do with performance. This is not true of all teams, but I'm sure there are people out there that know what I'm talking about. Let's hope college scouts make up their own minds and don't depend on high school stats. Integrity, I think not!

 

[IMHO]

Don't kid yourself about stat padding. Could anyone believe that perhaps there are "clicks" on high school teams? Those groups that coaches want to do well seem to have higher BA's, less errors, lower ERA's. I've seen stats this year that are a joke. Either the score keeper has no idea what they are doing, or some coaches are really bending the truth. I've seen players named to all league teams that I wouldn't put in to pinch hit. All that stuff is based on stats and has little to do with performance. This is not true of all teams, but I'm sure there are people out there that know what I'm talking about. Let's hope college scouts make up their own minds and don't depend on high school stats. Integrity, I think not!

Clicks? Yes.............. I have seen situations where players were the scorekeepers. For every play made by a kid at the position that the scorekeeper thought he should be playing that was borderline it was scored an error on the kid on the team and every hit the kid had that was borderline was scored an error. And for every kid on the team the scorekeeper player hung with every borderline hit was a hit and borederline play was scored a hit for the other team.

Unless you are there to watch a game stats don't always paint the picture of what truely happened. Parent, player or coach keeping score.

Listen to Marty B. on the radio. He complains about other team statiticians all the time. It is subjective and prone to biases.

 

[Hakko936]

Listen to Marty B. on the radio. He complains about other team statiticians all the time. It is subjective and prone to biases.

Marty went off about the scorekeeper in St. Louis the other night.

 

[FI89]

FYI.... it's "cliques", not "clicks".

 

[4hitter]

THis is really funny

Stats are kept by volunteers in High School or a coach who is running around doing everything else during a game. When I coached I taught the pitchers who weren't pitching and the players on the team to keep the stats. Not a real big deal. Now with the padding of stats, I am sure it happens but isn't a score keeper subjective to what they think is a hit and an error? Playing in college against an All-American Shortstop on weekend he was awarded 3 hits that would easily be marked errors in my book, I know because I booted one of them (the hit kept my fielding percentage high lol). This is how he kept his All-American status (besides the other 10 hits he had that weekend).
The guys with the crazy stats may have been padded but still have produced on a high level, so take away a few points. College coaches only are looking for tools and for someone to fit into their program anyway. Only a few people on here ever talk about stats unless it is homeruns or wins.

 

[simpletim]

What were the final stats for the two players who won MVP?

 

[eagle9908]

it really does'nt matter who keeps the stats they're changed to pump up some players. as for sutton and monnot's stats no one will ever know the truth because thats the way glenoak does things. all in all i guess it does'nt really matter both of them are good players and good friends. it does'nt seem to matter in any of the sports at glenoak its nothing but a good old boys club!!! AND THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE NO BACKING FROM THE COMMUNITY AND WILL NEVER HAVE WINNING SEASONS IN ANY SPORT!!!!!

 

[eagle9908]

i do know that on many occasions monnot caught for 6 innings and then was brought into pitch for the save that was done at least 3 times. and then pitched entire games against the federal league teams with a record of 6-3. he hit 4 home runs and at one point was on a 14 game hitting streak. his stats that were sent into the repository were correct he ended up batting 406. do you know manpeople that can catch and then pitch in the same game? i don't, but i guess it wasn't enough for the green and gold

 

[simpletim]

i do know that on many occasions monnot caught for 6 innings and then was brought into pitch for the save that was done at least 3 times. and then pitched entire games against the federal league teams with a record of 6-3. he hit 4 home runs and at one point was on a 14 game hitting streak. his stats that were sent into the repository were correct he ended up batting 406. do you know manpeople that can catch and then pitch in the same game? i don't, but i guess it wasn't enough for the green and gold

I thought he got co-MVP?

 

[eagle9908]

he did get co-mvp. and no i'm not now or will never be a golden eagle!!!!!

 

[eagle9908]

by the way what is a golden eagle anyway??? and how come the player of the year jared messer, who is a fine player, stats were never posted in the repository? can anyone answer that question??

 

[champion]

by the way what is a golden eagle anyway??? and how come the player of the year jared messer, who is a fine player, stats were never posted in the repository? can anyone answer that question??

The Golden Eagle (Aquila chrysaetos) is one of the best known birds of prey in the Northern Hemisphere. Like all eagles, it belongs to the family Accipitridae. Once widespread across the Holarctic, it has disappeared from many of the more heavily populated areas. It has a wingspan averaging over 2 m (7 ft) and up to 1 m (3 ft) in body length.

Does that help you?

 

[champion]

it does'nt seem to matter in any of the sports at glenoak its nothing but a good old boys club!!!

Does that Good Old Boys Club include those who film for the football team?

THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE NO BACKING FROM THE COMMUNITY AND WILL NEVER HAVE WINNING SEASONS IN ANY SPORT!!!!!

I think passing the recent levy shows that community support is buiding. The attitude of people like you is what makes change in this community so difficult and a slow process. The football team has qualified for the playoffs two years in a row and made it to the Regional Final for the first time and the baseball team hada fairly successful season. Instead of being proud of a kid that was a major contribtor to both of those, you have to whine about idividual recognition.

Some of you continue to worry about the name on the back of the jersey rather than the front. You dont care about GlenOak, all you care about is Little Jonny and what he gets rather than how the team does. THAT is why there is no backing from that part of the community.

 

[02slider]

it really does'nt matter who keeps the stats they're changed to pump up some players. as for sutton and monnot's stats no one will ever know the truth because thats the way glenoak does things. all in all i guess it does'nt really matter both of them are good players and good friends. it does'nt seem to matter in any of the sports at glenoak its nothing but a good old boys club!!! AND THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE NO BACKING FROM THE COMMUNITY AND WILL NEVER HAVE WINNING SEASONS IN ANY SPORT!!!!!

The last I checked didn't the GO baseball team finish with a twenty win season? To me that is a WINNING season. Eagle- you should of not made this post or at least you could of called it by a different title. Where is your integrity?

 

[02slider]

my guess is that eagle thinks TJ's stats are padded. Who keeps the book for GO? TJ is a Jr and Monnot is a senior, who do you guys think should be mvp, TJ or JM:blush:

Well If I had to pick between those two, I would pick TJ. And I think so would a lot of other people. Baseball is a team sport and from what I hear Monnot is too much of an individual. He plays for himself and does not care to listen to anyone else. I do not know what his future college plans are as far as athletic, but I can tell you if he continues to be an individual on a team sport his college career will be cut way short. No college coaches want to put up with that or want to hear the imput from mommy and daddy.

 

[IMHO]

Well If I had to pick between those two, I would pick TJ. And I think so would a lot of other people. Baseball is a team sport and from what I hear Monnot is too much of an individual. He plays for himself and does not care to listen to anyone else. I do not know what his future college plans are as far as athletic, but I can tell you if he continues to be an individual on a team sport his college career will be cut way short. No college coaches want to put up with that or want to hear the imput from mommy and daddy.

I have to disagree with your assessment. If you think the politics stops when a player goes to college you are kidding yourself. And definitely it becomes MORE individualistic than what it is in high school.

 

[Hometeam]

Of all the sports, baseball, imo, is the most political. Everyone sees what they want to see, whether it's accurate or not. And it happens at all levels. The athlete that is hyped the most and has the most connections, gets the most credit and the most opportunities.

 

[02slider]

I have to disagree with your assessment. If you think the politics stops when a player goes to college you are kidding yourself. And definitely it becomes MORE individualistic than what it is in high school.

I agree with you. Politics never stop, but if a coach is not winning at the college level he is gone. He is not going to put up with a player or players that can not handle the disciplin and time that a college sport demands. If that player is hurting the team or not producing he will not be in the line-up.