Toledo Area Basketball 20-21

eastisbest

Well-known member
I like the point of the post overall, but we disagree with the level of talent it takes to play D2 (sorry nit picking a few comments). Meaning I believe the bar to be much higher than some of the names mentioned.

To play D2 you have to be in the top 2% of basketball players if not nationally then at least regionally. Maybe you could expand that to 2.5% to account for guys playing other sports in college, guys who don't make the grade, some NAIA scholarship guys and the D1 or bust guys who choose not to play in college.
A lot hidden in those numbers. "Level of talent" is kind of generic statement to discusss but I'll go with, top 2% makes it sound elite. Its not.

I'll grant that the number of competitive D2 programs is growing, but there are only a small percentage that will compete regularly with even the bottom of D1. They for the most part are doing what they can to fill rosters with capable students. The bar is not that high. But for the most part, they are filled with average human beings that worked a little harder at a sport. There's no genetic superiority needed. They're not turning people away like the D1s. They are not pumping players into the overseas leagues. They're pumping players into the local rec leagues.

With no way to call it or collect, I'll say I can believe you would find Intramural at the D1's that take such things seriously or military teams that would compete quite well at the D2 level.

We have a few competitive D2s in the area, GVSU being the best I think. Hillsdale, Findlay show some mettle with the D1s during scrimmage season but only anecdotally compete regular season. Most of the kids in our systems if they really wanted to put in the work, are genetically capable of D2 or D3 program. Most just simply are not interested in that kind of effort. And when it's done, they're done.
 
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Smalls

Well-known member
A lot hidden in those numbers. "Level of talent" is kind of generic statement to discusss but I'll go with, top 2% makes it sound elite. Its not.

I'll grant that the number of competitive D2 programs is growing, but there are only a small percentage that will compete regularly with even the bottom of D1. They for the most part are doing what they can to fill rosters with capable students. The bar is not that high. But for the most part, they are filled with average human beings that worked a little harder at a sport. There's no genetic superiority needed. They're not turning people away like the D1s. They are not pumping players into the overseas leagues. They're pumping players into the local rec leagues.

With no way to call it or collect, I'll say I can believe you would find Intramural at the D1's that take such things seriously or military teams that would compete quite well at the D2 level.

We have a few competitive D2s in the area, GVSU being the best I think. Hillsdale, Findlay show some mettle with the D1s during scrimmage season but only anecdotally compete regular season. Most of the kids in our systems if they really wanted to put in the work, are genetically capable of D2 or D3 program. Most just simply are not interested in that kind of effort. And when it's done, they're done.
I'm all over the place on this post.

The D2s you mention are the D2s I am most familiar with. Both Findlay and Hillsdale put guys on teams overseas on a pretty regular basis. Ferris State won a National Championship a couple years ago and is the better program between them and GVSU.

Overseas players from Hillsdale - Kyle Cooper, Tim Dezelski, Tony Gugino, Jason Pretzer, Nick Washburn, Brad Guinane, Ian Shelton, Cory Coe and Mike Lake (college roomate) played 20+ years overseas. I'm sure there are others I missed.

I watched Hillsdale take Toledo to OT twice (exhibition) with Hillsdale having the best player on the floor (Kyle Cooper) the 2nd time around. You could not tell who the D1 school was if they switched uniforms. Hillsdale was the bigger team in both height and strength.


2015-16 game: Hillsdale outrebounded Toledo 50-38, but the Rockets attempted 23 more free throws than the Chargers in the contest. Some home cooking for UT ;)

Can't find the box score but this was Toledo's 2013-14 Mac West champ team, 27-7 on the season.

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So I am old the Hillsdale vs Marquette game was longer ago than I remembered, but Hillsdale was up with 5:00 to go vs the #16 team in the country, before losing by 10.

Findlay lost to #20 Xavier (79-76 in 2009) and took a ranked Dayton down to the wire about that same time.

More recent.

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Point being, I would not consider any of the D1s mentioned as the bottom of D1 so it would not be a stretch to think that the top 25 of D2 would handle the lower level D1s on a regular basis. There are 350+ D1 teams and 13 conferences with RPIs below the MAC.
 
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nwosportsfan

New member
A lot hidden in those numbers. "Level of talent" is kind of generic statement to discusss but I'll go with, top 2% makes it sound elite. Its not.

I'll grant that the number of competitive D2 programs is growing, but there are only a small percentage that will compete regularly with even the bottom of D1. They for the most part are doing what they can to fill rosters with capable students. The bar is not that high. But for the most part, they are filled with average human beings that worked a little harder at a sport. There's no genetic superiority needed. They're not turning people away like the D1s. They are not pumping players into the overseas leagues. They're pumping players into the local rec leagues.

With no way to call it or collect, I'll say I can believe you would find Intramural at the D1's that take such things seriously or military teams that would compete quite well at the D2 level.

We have a few competitive D2s in the area, GVSU being the best I think. Hillsdale, Findlay show some mettle with the D1s during scrimmage season but only anecdotally compete regular season. Most of the kids in our systems if they really wanted to put in the work, are genetically capable of D2 or D3 program. Most just simply are not interested in that kind of effort. And when it's done, they're done.
Could not disagree more. It takes a lot of hard work to play college basketball. It also takes a lot of skill. I’ve watched Findlay scrimmage Bowling Green over the last few years. They took them to overtime last year. That same Bowling Green team had the 2nd best record in the MAC. Some D2 guys could easily be playing division 1 basketball. Whether it’s grades, going to a small school, or not having the ability to shine in a bad system. Some players just get unlucky with injuries and end up D2. They definitely aren’t “rec league players.”
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
and you both are using schools near the upper end of D2 to make your point, which was exactly my point. Yes, go look at whether those games were in-season or scrimmage and look even for those perrenially good schools if their ability to compete with D1 is regularly or as I said, anecdotally.

So now, please make your arguments using the reality of D2 ball, which isn't Findlay, Hillsdale and Grand Valley.

Now we see a kid from Walsh doing extremely well at Toledo. But again, anecdote. One player, not a team of players that could compete at D1. Even lowly D1. There is no major flow from D2 to european pros. There's not even a major flow from D1. Again, small anecdotes.

As I stated, "Level of talent" is kind of generic statement to discusss but that's the one Smalls threw out.

Stating that 2% doesn't make an kid "elite" is not an indictment on the kid. It's a measure of the pool they're coming from. The top 2% of any major skill set is mostly pretty average people who concentrated on learning a skill, be it baseball, basketball or computer programming. And when they're done with that, they're in the rec league or talking about how better it was back in the day and holding petty rivalies over the person in the next lazyboy over.

Sounds more like you guys don't have respect for rec leagues. ;)
 

Smalls

Well-known member
and you both are using schools near the upper end of D2 to make your point, which was exactly my point. Yes, go look at whether those games were in-season or scrimmage and look even for those perrenially good schools if their ability to compete with D1 is regularly or as I said, anecdotally.

So now, please make your arguments using the reality of D2 ball, which isn't Findlay, Hillsdale and Grand Valley.

Now we see a kid from Walsh doing extremely well at Toledo. But again, anecdote. One player, not a team of players that could compete at D1. Even lowly D1. There is no major flow from D2 to european pros. There's not even a major flow from D1. Again, small anecdotes.

As I stated, "Level of talent" is kind of generic statement to discusss but that's the one Smalls threw out.

Stating that 2% doesn't make an kid "elite" is not an indictment on the kid. It's a measure of the pool they're coming from. The top 2% of any major skill set is mostly pretty average people who concentrated on learning a skill, be it baseball, basketball or computer programming. And when they're done with that, they're in the rec league or talking about how better it was back in the day and holding petty rivalies over the person in the next lazyboy over.

Sounds more like you guys don't have respect for rec leagues. ;)
How many guys is considered a steady flow to Europe?

I listed 9 from Hillsdale. 8 of them have been in the last 15 years. Plus, Hillsdale is rarely a top 25 team. They are the reality of a slightly above average D2 most years. They have only had 4 seasons in the last 20+ years that they didn't lose at least 9 games.

Grand Valley going back 10 years.......average D2.

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Findlay has been a top 25 D2 Program for an extended period.

Andrew Taylor St. Johns - transferred from Hillsdale to top 25 Xavier and averaged 10 min per game his Jr and Sr year and he was not the best player on Hillsdale's team at the time, either physically or skill wise.

More recently Zach Hankins transferred from Ferris state to Xavier and averaged 11 ppg. His story in interesting.


Hankins received some interest from several NCAA Division III schools as well as Grand Valley State and Lake Superior State. Ferris State was the only school to offer him a scholarship, so he committed to play college basketball for the Bulldogs.[3] Then-assistant coach Andy Bronkema spotted Hankins at a camp at Ferris State and made him the $3,000 scholarship pledge.[4]
 
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eastisbest

Well-known member
How many guys is considered a steady flow to Europe?

I listed 9 from Hillsdale. 8 of them have been in the last 15 years. Plus, Hillsdale is rarely a top 25 team. They are the reality of a slightly above average D2 most years. They have only had 4 seasons in the last 20+ years that they didn't lose at least 9 games.

Grand Valley going back 10 years.......average D2.

View attachment 14716

Findlay has been a top 25 D2 Program for an extended period.

Andrew Taylor St. Johns - transferred from Hillsdale to top 25 Xavier and averaged 10 min per game his Jr and Sr year and he was not the best player on Hillsdale's team at the time, either physically or skill wise.

More recently Zach Hankins transferred from Ferris state to Xavier and averaged 11 ppg. His story in interesting.


Hankins received some interest from several NCAA Division III schools as well as Grand Valley State and Lake Superior State. Ferris State was the only school to offer him a scholarship, so he committed to play college basketball for the Bulldogs.[3] Then-assistant coach Andy Bronkema spotted Hankins at a camp at Ferris State and made him the $3,000 scholarship pledge.[4]
You are still using the top of the heap to make your point for the generality, just while saying you're not using the top of the heat, lol. Numbers aren't what you apparently think they are. I could not find a D2 ranking but for example, Dayton's record at under 600 puts them in the top 50 D1. W-L is not a uniform distribution. It is most likely a guassian, a "bell" curve. Of the over 300 D2 teams, Hillsdale's record puts them in pretty good company. And using anecdotal players. Anecdotes have been conceded. I will concede on the number of players in Europe only because I looked up the number of "pro" clubs in Europe. Not filled with "elite" athletes. There are elite athletes but most those lower level are populated by good athletes who chose a profession to focus on. Like the best carpenters in a town. The reason many are from here is training available here versus what a better talent might have from poduck Africa or Asia or ....

As I said (twice) the generality of your "Level of talent" statement opens it to just about anyone, causes the discussion to be about semantics. I stated ONLY that using the 2% matriculation out of high school stat makes it sound as if these are all "elite" when they are not. I stand by it. There are elite. There are D1 level squads but of the over 300 teams, not many. They are more what we'd call journeymen. You will find that level of talent, teams of them quite easily in the best intramural leagues at major universities and in the military. Perhaps for the same reasons you are arguing a player ends up in D2 vs. D1. Roll of the dice, life happens....

Taking those perenially top D2 that are D1 in all but name out of the discussion, what would make the D2 team better than those top intramural teams would be the access to coaching and practice time, not the level of athlete. Again, ignoring athletes. I believe you would find teams in the military with nearly the same.

None of that is an indictment of the D2 players or teams. It's simply an argument that the 2% out of high school stat can lead to I believe incorrect implications on exactly what it takes to become a general D2 level player. Or for that matter, be the last walk-on off the bench as a walk-on at a D1. You're better than the average bear but not "elite" by most peoples' use of the word.
 
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Smalls

Well-known member
I think you are over estimating the physical difference between "most" D1 and "most" D2 basketball players. For most it is 2-3 inches of height. For example, one of the best measures of athleticism is the vertical jump, agree?

Here is the average from the NBA combine in 2006, there are several other years listed that only show the top 10, I didn't see any that listed beyond the top 10, but they list the average NBA vertical as 28".

).
  • The top 5 vertical jump (no step) results from the 2006 NBA draft camp were 37.5 inches Dwayne Mitchell, 35.0 Ronnie Brewer, 35.0 Curtis Withers, 35.0 Will Blalock, and 34.5 David Noel. (see more NBA draft results).
  • The average NBA vertical leap is 28" (71 cm).
Heck I know 6 people in my own family who have met or exceeded 28" on the no step vertical testing, one is a girl and a few others are well past their prime.

The whole point of my original comment was that a couple of the names listed as D2 or potential D2 were rarely or never the best player or 2 or 3 or 4 on the court, playing a pedestrian high school schedule, which takes them out of the top 2-2.5% of players. They do not have outstanding size or skill for their position. They were no closer to playing D2 than the last player on their bench. I was just trying to be nice when pointing that out.
 
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eastisbest

Well-known member
I think you are over estimating the physical difference between "most" D1 and "most" D2 basketball players.
You pull that out of a hat?

I don't think you understand what my statement you responded to was about. It's about 2% and how it is perceived and how it should be perceived in this instance. Because your comment on "talent" was so general, I'm saying any discussion of either that or of "elite" is one of semantics. I'm making the point that 2%, even after high school vetting is not "rare." It is not "elite." The talent even within a school building is disparent, not too infrequently the best individual players are not even on the teams.

There is too much cause hidden in that 2% to accurately call it "elite."

As far as D2 talent: historically it is exactly what is says, second caliber. It is the result after the first imperfect but mostly best available vetting. To claim otherwise ignores the goals and abilities of D1 recruiting. To use anecdotes to claim the general D2 caliber player is anywhere near a D1 caliber player is to say also are JCC, since occasionally some of them find themselves transferred in and successful in D1. We know there is fairly heavy traffic the other direction D1 to D2, showing the vetting isn't perfect. Players finding they're not getting the court time they want, transferring down to a high D2 in hopes to increase it. Sometimes that doesn't work out so well, giving credance to the fact that D2 is no cakewalk, it takes work, regardless the talent and genetics. Sometimes the player just isn't what was thought or not willing to put in D1 time to get better.

The other issue with your 2% beyond it not being a measure of rare, the talent distribution isn't uniform. It comes from generally pockets of talent and pockets of recruiting areas. This has improved due to it being lucrative being a recruiter, so they venture further afield than old day, including into small countries bringing prospects with no real background, but genetic potential. Sometimes directly to lower college programs for development, sometimes to lower European clubs with the hope of being fed eventually to larger US D1. The talent acquisition game is improving.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
I'll grant that the number of competitive D2 programs is growing, but there are only a small percentage that will compete regularly with even the bottom of D1. They for the most part are doing what they can to fill rosters with capable students. The bar is not that high. But for the most part, they are filled with average human beings that worked a little harder at a sport. There's no genetic superiority needed. They're not turning people away like the D1s. They are not pumping players into the overseas leagues. They're pumping players into the local rec leagues.
I'll attempt to stop beating this horse after this....or maybe not.

I would normally love to hype Hillsdale, but they are not a top D2 basketball program historically. There are 118 D2 schools with more NCAA tournament appearances including 7 from the GLIAC (their former conference up until 3 years ago).

Hillsdale has shown a pretty consistent ability to compete with Toledo (and others) in multiple exhibition games. Toledo is currently 60 in D1 RPI (probably higher than normal, would think 100-150 range in more the norm). So since Hillsdale can compete with Toledo they would more than likely beat the bottom tier of D1 schools. If Hillsdale can do that than it is safe to assume the 100+ D2 teams with a stronger basketball history would also be able to beat those lower level D1s.


I would argue that it is not the D2 schools that are only D2 in name only, it is the watered down D1 that are D1 in name only and are really D2/NAIA level in facilities, budget and level of play.

Football is another story since there are only 130 D1 programs and have way more scholarships to give and talented guys get buried on the depth chart. They are also required to sell a specific number of tickets in order to remain D1 and build facilities to accommodate those butts in the seats.

With basketball at least the top 1/3 of D2 is as good or better than bottom 1/3 of D1. I think a big reason is D1 has 13 full rides that can not be split, D2 can give 10 full rides or split the money and take a "risk" on a guy like Hankins from Ferris State/Xavier who I mentioned earlier. There are also many D1 programs with the equivalent of a basic high school gym as their home floor since there is no ticket sale requirements to remain D1 in basketball.

Petition to be D1 in basketball and you are D1 in basketball, no barrier to getting there - hence the bottom of D1 being no where near the top or even middle of D1.
 
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tcgobucks

Well-known member
Guys....this argument is silly. There are too many variables to say one way or the other is the right answer. Can a really good D2 beat an average (or below average) D1? Of course.....it's happened. But to compare them is silly. If a really good D2 played that same D1 20 times, they may win 2 if everything went right. Can the top level D2 guys play D1? Maybe? There are lot of guys who are really good at a school like Findlay that didn't get offered by the MAC schools? Did the MAC schools miss a guy here or there? Again, of course....but there are reasons that they didn't get offers. Look at Findlay. They regularly get small school guys D3 or even D4 that end up being really good by the time they are Seniors. Were they ready for top level D2 competition coming from a small town D4 school? Doesn't seem like it in a lot of cases....so what makes you think they could have jumped in and played in the MAC? Not trying to argue either way....just making a point based on what I see being from small town NW Ohio.
 

ayCC!

Active member
Wasn't there a D2 team that throttled Kansas State this year?

Edit: Fort Hays State beat them 81-68
 
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Smalls

Well-known member
Guys....this argument is silly. There are too many variables to say one way or the other is the right answer. Can a really good D2 beat an average (or below average) D1? Of course.....it's happened. But to compare them is silly. If a really good D2 played that same D1 20 times, they may win 2 if everything went right. Can the top level D2 guys play D1? Maybe? There are lot of guys who are really good at a school like Findlay that didn't get offered by the MAC schools? Did the MAC schools miss a guy here or there? Again, of course....but there are reasons that they didn't get offers. Look at Findlay. They regularly get small school guys D3 or even D4 that end up being really good by the time they are Seniors. Were they ready for top level D2 competition coming from a small town D4 school? Doesn't seem like it in a lot of cases....so what makes you think they could have jumped in and played in the MAC? Not trying to argue either way....just making a point based on what I see being from small town NW Ohio.
My point is more about the D1s lower than the MAC. The MAC is middle of the road for RPI, there are 13 conferences that are a lower level than the MAC, in areas of the country that are not basketball hot beds. I am not arguing the GLIAC/GMAC schools are better than any MAC schools. I am arguing that the top schools in the GLIAC/GMAC are better than the lower end D1s who are D1 in name only, not in facilities/product on the floor.
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
Wasn't there a D2 team that throttled Kansas State this year?
Yes, in an exhibition game that was scheduled 2 days earlier because of a Covid cancellation. K-State was 1-4 at the time. Again, didn't say it couldn't happen....it does...but it's not like it's a regular occurence
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
My point is more about the D1s lower than the MAC. The MAC is middle of the road for RPI, there are 13 conferences that are a lower level than the MAC, in areas of the country that are not basketball hot beds. I am not arguing the GLIAC/GMAC schools are better than any MAC schools. I am arguing that the top schools in the GLIAC/GMAC are better than the lower end D1s who are D1 in name only, not in facilities/product on the floor.
Right but the RPI is a mess this year because of schedule changes and cancelled games. 5-3 Canisius is ahead of Toledo who is ahead of Wisconsin. Sorry, but I'm taking Wisky over Canisius 20 times out of 20 lol
 

Smalls

Well-known member
Right but the RPI is a mess this year because of schedule changes and cancelled games. 5-3 Canisius is ahead of Toledo who is ahead of Wisconsin. Sorry, but I'm taking Wisky over Canisius 20 times out of 20 lol
Agree - but historically the MAC has been middle of the RPI pack and the ranking is based on 1,000s of games crossing over all conferences. When looking at conference RPIs the averages trend to the norm and offset abnormalities like what you mentioned above.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Guys....this argument is silly. There are too many variables to say one way or the other is the right answer. Can a really good D2 beat an average (or below average) D1? Of course.....it's happened. But to compare them is silly. If a really good D2 played that same D1 20 times, they may win 2 if everything went right. Can the top level D2 guys play D1? Maybe? There are lot of guys who are really good at a school like Findlay that didn't get offered by the MAC schools? Did the MAC schools miss a guy here or there? Again, of course....but there are reasons that they didn't get offers. Look at Findlay. They regularly get small school guys D3 or even D4 that end up being really good by the time they are Seniors. Were they ready for top level D2 competition coming from a small town D4 school? Doesn't seem like it in a lot of cases....so what makes you think they could have jumped in and played in the MAC? Not trying to argue either way....just making a point based on what I see being from small town NW Ohio.
And since it needs repeating for comfort food, none of that is disparaging. It's simple recognition of the vetting process and recognition that most, nearly all high school programs are not filled with elite athletes or ball players. 2% isn't what one might think it is on the surface. Probably a big reason there is such a hunt overseas for raw talent with measurables. Coaches have careers that depend on their ability to recruit vs. develop.

I cannot presume Small's experience. I know, I KNOW I can look at a top intramural team at a D1 and see both the measurables and the talent that you will see generally in D2. Why they are playing intramurals? All the varied reasons Smalls mentioned a D1 caliber player might be in D2 or "lower." And though dated, I've stood on courts of military players equal or near equal to NBA players. I wasn't one of them. :D Those military leagues are solid. Some of the best? probably D1 caliber.

We are seeing more and more talent in small colleges not heard of that either move up to D1 in b-ball or remain in D2. To the team, they almost all have overseas players to fill needs not able to obtain here or consider more potential. I honestly cannot say I'm a fan. But for the most part, I'd say tcgobucks nails the discussion regards Smalls 2% number.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
Not my 2% number it is the NCAA's 2% number - I expanded it to 2.5% (which is a big increase) to account for grades/juco, playing other sports in college, D1 or bust guys, NAIA scholarship guys etc. I stated it as a percentage - not as "Elite" or "Special" or "Premier" just a number followed by a %. If a high school kid falls outside that number they will not likely to 1) Earn a D2 scholarship 2) See the field/court.

You said a team like Hillsdale was not typical D2 - I showed they are, based on results in their league and NCAA appearances.

You said top D2s were not putting guys overseas - I showed they are.

You said they were Asian or African carpenters or something like that - I was confused ;) Not sure how to differentiate leagues or level of play, but do know there are agents and $$$ involved. This is not me starting the Toledo Ice with some $$$ I borrowed from my 401K. My roommate made $80K+/season 20 years ago (never asked again after he shared that) he then went back to being an accountant in Huntington Beach in the offseason. Now he coaches over seas.

You said their is an athletic barrier to playing D1 - I stated it is more a size than an athleticism difference between the lower level D1 and upper level D2 programs if there is any difference at all.

Transitive property is not perfect but Toledo plays Hillsdale to double OT back to back years, Toledo then beats D1 Howard by 40+, I say Hillsdale (and 100+ other D2 teams) would beat Howard. I am not claiming Hillsdale is better than Toledo, I am claiming they are better than Howard. In a typical year Hillsdale probably has two guys who could break into Toledo's 8-9 man rotation. Their top guy would probably start with their 2nd best guy coming off the bench. With the "raw" talent deficit maybe Hillsdale keeps it close because of better team play or an individual superior skill. Who knows that is basketball.

You say it was an exhibition - I look at the box score and see the same minutes and rotations as played in the regular season. There is no way UT wants to lose that game especially after a scare the year before.

I have no doubt a military league drawing from 1,000's of guys with ages from 18-30+ from all over the country would have some studs mixed in. Even with less athleticism and jumping ability 25 year old me was going to beat 18 year old me every day of the week. Because I had 7 more years in the weight room....all down hill after 30 though.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Interesting debate here. Personal observation, I would say there is probably not a whole lot of difference between the bottom 1/3rd of D1 and the top 1/3rd of D2. The really high end D2 teams in the region in recent years (Findlay, Ferris State, West Liberty, and Bellarmine (now D1)) would be very competitive in the MAC.

Exhibitions: I would not discount entirely, but the kids from smaller schools get a lot more excited about those games. Exhibitions are a good testament to the difference in skill level being minimal if not non-existent between most of D1 and most of D2, and I'd argue even the best D3 teams. What is different is better size/strength/athleticism nets a D1 scholarship, and for the most part, those physical attributes slot kids coming out of high school. Prime example: back in 2002, my local D3 powerhouse Wittenberg had an exhibition against Dayton and they only got beat by 7-8 points. Dayton's main guys played 30 minutes in that exhibition and they finished the year with a 24-6 record and ranked in both of the polls. Wittenberg didn't make the D3 tournament that year due to not winning their league tournament with how thin the at-large numbers were for D3 at the time.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Another good example with individual players: my neighborhood D1 high school, Springfield (Dayton area) had a couple good seniors on their 2019 team that made it to regionals. There was an extremely athletic 6'4 kid on that team that's currently on scholarship at Toledo. Couldn't shoot worth a lick from the perimeter but had all of the physical tools. Their other main guy was a 6'1 guard that was a very skilled high school player with pretty average to above average athleticism for the level they competed at. He's now the 7th or 8th guy at D3 Capital.

As I often tell other coaches and kids I've had on my teams, there is very good basketball being played at the best D3 schools such as Wittenberg, Wooster and the top schools in the OAC like Mt. Union and John Carroll. The best kids at those schools are the late bloomers and the kids that were 2-3 inches too short and a step too slow.
 

ayCC!

Active member
Northview absolutely rolled a good Southview team 80-47. If they have games like these down the playoff stretch, I honestly feel they could beat Lima Senior.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
I’ll only talk about the NLL over the last 15 or so years because it’s what I’ve watched the most and before that seems irrelevant to the programs current situations.

What happened to Springfield since Reiser and then Joplin? They used to be a school who consistently had some of the best prospects. (Leroy, McFadden, Wiggins) Perrysburg hasn’t ever had elite talent even in their best years imo, Sizemore was solid the last few years but I can’t think of a D1 guy under Boyce. AW had Donnal but outside of him their best basketball players have typically been better at something else, similar to PB. BG has had a couple top level players (Brown, Orr) but since 2013 haven’t been the same. Napoleon is ok but other than the Lauf brothers they haven’t had any D1 or 2 guys in the NLL. SV has Jump who is probably a D2 guy next year similar level as Casanova but their talent isn’t near what it was back when Gant played let alone Joplin and Hausfeld. NV has Craig right now and the West brothers were both solid, can’t think of much before them. I don’t think Maumee has had a D2 or better guy play since around 2013 though Ben Pacer and Walker were both close.

At the end of the day i think about half the starters in the NLL just don’t focus on basketball anymore. From what I’ve seen this year I think Craig is the only player in the NLL with the size and athleticism to even consider playing D1. Maybe once these kids realized they wouldnt ever be physically gifted enough to play D1 (or D2 in some cases) they decided to show up in the winter to play ball and spend the other 8 months focused on baseball, football or soccer where they might be able to play at the next level.
I mentioned this before but in watching the NV/AW game pre shut down I would say that a couple starters and the first couple kids off the bench from both squads pick up a basketball in November and drop it in March. We have talked about this before but outside of a handful of kids the basketball IQ is not very high in the Toledo area at the moment. Kids show their butts all the time simply on court awareness. Not knowing where to be, how to set screens and move off of screens, playing away from the ball, etc...

It is as bad as I've ever seen it.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
3 Way tie in the TRAC - St. Johns, Lima and Findlay
Northview wins the NLL
Start Wins the City
Stritch wins the TAAC
Rossford wins the NBC - sit out their top 8 guys in a loss vs Woodmore
Archbold wins the NWOAL

Lima and Stritch are the surprises to me. Both matured a little earlier than I thought they would.

St. Francis played a brutal schedule, but also had some head scratching losses to teams they should beat on paper. They have enough talent that they "could" knock of a top team or two in the district, but have yet to play to that level vs a good team.

Clay finishing 5th is not surprising when looking at who they finished above. That has to be the highest they finished in the history of the TRAC. All be it with 2 TRAC wins.

D1 someone will make it to the Regional Final since Millbury District plays Toledo District in the Semi., then would play St. Eds/St. Iggy/Garfield Heights level team.

Rossford's potential Regional Semi game would be Akron Buchtel - Buchtel only lost by 3 to St. Eds

Stritch/Archbold vs Ottawa Glandorf - OG would be favored, but they are not quite as good as typical OG.

TC (Antwerp looms in the district) - might be able to win a regional semi game, but would need to play near perfect in the final to get to the final 4.
 
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Smalls

Well-known member
If Clay beat SJJ I think that would be the hardest I’d ever have laughed in my life.
Was 33-33 end of 3. SJJ won by 17.

Turning point was when Clay had the ball and got a tech., all down hill from there. To much jawing at the other team and refs, not enough focus on playing the game.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Not my 2% number it is the NCAA's 2% number - I expanded it to 2.5% (which is a big increase) to account for grades/juco, playing other sports in college, D1 or bust guys, NAIA scholarship guys etc. I stated it as a percentage - not as "Elite" or "Special" or "Premier" just a number followed by a %. If a high school kid falls outside that number they will not likely to 1) Earn a D2 scholarship 2) See the field/court.

You said a team like Hillsdale was not typical D2 - I showed they are, based on results in their league and NCAA appearances.

You said top D2s were not putting guys overseas - I showed they are.

You said they were Asian or African carpenters or something like that - I was confused ;) Not sure how to differentiate leagues or level of play, but do know there are agents and $$$ involved. This is not me starting the Toledo Ice with some $$$ I borrowed from my 401K. My roommate made $80K+/season 20 years ago (never asked again after he shared that) he then went back to being an accountant in Huntington Beach in the offseason. Now he coaches over seas.

You said their is an athletic barrier to playing D1 - I stated it is more a size than an athleticism difference between the lower level D1 and upper level D2 programs if there is any difference at all.

Transitive property is not perfect but Toledo plays Hillsdale to double OT back to back years, Toledo then beats D1 Howard by 40+, I say Hillsdale (and 100+ other D2 teams) would beat Howard. I am not claiming Hillsdale is better than Toledo, I am claiming they are better than Howard. In a typical year Hillsdale probably has two guys who could break into Toledo's 8-9 man rotation. Their top guy would probably start with their 2nd best guy coming off the bench. With the "raw" talent deficit maybe Hillsdale keeps it close because of better team play or an individual superior skill. Who knows that is basketball.

You say it was an exhibition - I look at the box score and see the same minutes and rotations as played in the regular season. There is no way UT wants to lose that game especially after a scare the year before.

I have no doubt a military league drawing from 1,000's of guys with ages from 18-30+ from all over the country would have some studs mixed in. Even with less athleticism and jumping ability 25 year old me was going to beat 18 year old me every day of the week. Because I had 7 more years in the weight room....all down hill after 30 though.
lol
you made up of alot of "you saids" that I didn't say but if that's what gets you through life, go with it. You're obviously offended that I have an opinion that D2 2% isn't the same as D1 2%, maybe you got someone in that D2 2% throwing shade in your eyes so just pretend I said something else. Seems to work for you. ;)

One point in there I can definitely agree with. You are confused. :D
 
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