State Final 4 Venues
- Thread starter TheBigRed1
- Start date
.....field is 100 yards long and 53 1/3 yards wide(think of Hoosiers with the dimensions being said by the coach) 35-12, BC was the better team that night and not sure any field or stadium would have made a difference.
fleadog101
Active member
If certain people from the OHSAA have there way under a new proposal they would eliminate the neutral sites top seed would host. It is also being talked about that have one multiple site like a Massillon and Canton and do the semi Finals and Finals in one spot.
Add an 8th Division and haver only the top 12 from each region thus the top 4 would get a bye. While D 2 would have only 72 schools just like D1.
You will thus be able to watch all games between locations like in the past. Even some high schools rental prices are outrages that almost rival some small colleges.
TheBigRed1
Active member
They’ve been trying to get a new stadium for 30 years. The only reason new bleachers went in last year is because the bleachers collapsed. The “new ones” are basically temporary and won’t last long. Tipp can’t afford bleachers and the state refuses to give our district any money whatsoever for schools or athletic facilities because the town is middle class. I will admit we have lots of middle class people—very few of which actually care to help because they think their property taxes are too high.
CBC Fan, nobody said the stadium would’ve changed the outcome. I said it would be a better experience for all players, coaches, fans if the stadium was a cool atmosphere. I know you’re not from a CBC school trying to stir the pot right?
Sykotyk
Well-known member
Two states currently host all of their state semifinals at one location. And no, it's not Rhode Island and Delaware.
Iowa hosts all 14 semifinals (and all 7 finals) at the UNI-Dome in Cedar Falls, Iowa.
And Minnesota hosts all 14 semifinals (and all 7 finals) at the US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Other places with prearranged locations are Minnesota will host at least 8 games (two four-game days on Friday and Saturday) at the Fargodome in Fargo, ND for the NW regions who don't have much in the way of large stadiums and being that cold that time of year everyone would rather bus down to Fargo and play in a dome.
New York is weird. But I'll explain. The NYSPHSAA is the New York State Public High School Athletic Association. Not all public schools are members. And there are some private schools.
First, the NYSPHSAA is split into 11 'Sections' (think Ohio Districts). Two are on Long Island and line up with Nassau and Suffolk County (Sections 8 and 11). Upstate New York has the other 9. Western New York is Section 6 and covers the Buffalo area in a line almost north south from Lake Ontario to Pennsylvania. The Rochester area from Section 6 to halfway to Syracuse is Section 5, also in a line roughly north south from Lake to PA. Syracuse is Section 3 up to about Watertown and halfway south to Elmira/Binghamton.
Elmira/Binghamton area is Section 4. That's the western half of the state playoffs. The Eastern Half is Section 1, which is on the east side of the Hudson north of NYC, and Section 9, which is the western side of the Hudson just north of NYC. Albany area is Section 2. That leaves Section 7 and 10, which is far north. Geographically they're large, but in number of schools very few.
Because of this, the NYSPHSAA playoffs are rather uniform (8 teams per class, 4 west, 4 east, one section winner advances to the 8 spots) EXCEPT for Section 7/10. The two combine for the playoffs but don't have any AA or A (the two largest classes; NYSPHSAA has D, C, B, A, and AA from smallest to largest). This means that there was, historically, only 7 teams in the state playoffs in A, and AA. Also, Section 1 usually has no D schools, so there would also be an empty space in the bracket there.
HOWEVER, recently the western states petitioned that in the event there's an empty slot available, the best Section Runner-up from the west can take that spot so that one team just doesn't get an automatic bye to the state semifinals. It's usually a long trip and a mismatch anyways. But the point is to not give a bye that was an advantage to that team over the other two Eastern teams that had to play.
In reference to this post, many of the Section Finals are held at predetermined sites as one group.
Currently, Section 6 hosts all 5 titles at the Bills' stadium (currently named Highmark Stadium). Section 5 used to host all 5 games at Sahlen's Stadium (the soccer stadium in Rochester), but after that stopped, they moved around to a few high schools as a group, but now they're hosting them at SUNY-Brockport. Though for some reason this year only ONE of the games was played at a different venue. Haven't found out why. Section 3 used to host their games at the Carrier Dome. But in recent years have played at Cicero-North Syracuse, a rather big HS in the area.
Section 4 and the eastern Sections play at either home stadium of a team playing or a chosen neutral site. Section 8 and 11 play for a Long Island Championship. Section 8 holds their Section finals at Hofstra. While Section 11 holds their Section finals at Stony Brook. The LIC is then split beetween the two. Of the 4 championships, the two on Saturday are held at Hofstra last year, and the 2 on Sunday are held at Stony Brook.
if it wasn't clear, Long Island are members of the NYSPHSAA but don't participate in the state playoffs.
Meanwhile, the NYC public schools (the Public School Athletic League or PSAL) aren't members and do their own thing for all sports. For football they have about 55 high school teams and are split, historically, into three classes. They're not by size. if you're good, you'll be moved up. if you're bad you'll be dropped down. Before Covid, the championship was regularly held at Yankee Stadium (old and new). Last year they played at Abraham Lincoln HS's Lincoln Field. I've been there. Very nice stadium. All seating on one side though. Due to space constraints.
Until about a decade ago, the Buffalo City Schools also weren't NYSPHSAA members. Instead they played by themselves for the Harvard Cup. However, they're not full members of Section 6 and Bennett/Olmsted, a city school, is the defending Class AA State Champions.
The Buffalo area private schools (currently 6 teams) are members of the Monsignor Martin Athletic Association and aren't NYSPHSAA or Section 6 members. Years ago they used to host their finals at the Bills' stadium. Now they do not. Usually playing at the higher seed. The schools are the well known Canisius, St. Francis, St. Joseph's and Bishop Timon-St. Jude. Along with Cardinal O'Hara and St. Marys. The two small schools. There's others but don't play football. Some times they split into Large and Small brackets. But not with six schools.
The NYC area teams are members of the NYCHSFL. That includes NYC and Long Island Catholic schools. Most noteworthy would probably be Monsignor Farrell on Staten Island. The private schools in the middle of the state are members of the NYSPHSAA and their associated Section. Bishop Grimes in Syracuse area, Rochester Aquinas, McQuaid Catholic, along with Batavia Notre Dame, Utica Notre Dame, and a few smaller schools. Also the Christian Brothers schools in several cities are members.
The MMAA and NYCHSFL hold a state championship for the two champs, but it's tough to look up the older records. It hasn't been played much and there seems to be a year-to-year deal on whether the two champs will play and where.
Iowa hosts all 14 semifinals (and all 7 finals) at the UNI-Dome in Cedar Falls, Iowa.
And Minnesota hosts all 14 semifinals (and all 7 finals) at the US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Other places with prearranged locations are Minnesota will host at least 8 games (two four-game days on Friday and Saturday) at the Fargodome in Fargo, ND for the NW regions who don't have much in the way of large stadiums and being that cold that time of year everyone would rather bus down to Fargo and play in a dome.
New York is weird. But I'll explain. The NYSPHSAA is the New York State Public High School Athletic Association. Not all public schools are members. And there are some private schools.
First, the NYSPHSAA is split into 11 'Sections' (think Ohio Districts). Two are on Long Island and line up with Nassau and Suffolk County (Sections 8 and 11). Upstate New York has the other 9. Western New York is Section 6 and covers the Buffalo area in a line almost north south from Lake Ontario to Pennsylvania. The Rochester area from Section 6 to halfway to Syracuse is Section 5, also in a line roughly north south from Lake to PA. Syracuse is Section 3 up to about Watertown and halfway south to Elmira/Binghamton.
Elmira/Binghamton area is Section 4. That's the western half of the state playoffs. The Eastern Half is Section 1, which is on the east side of the Hudson north of NYC, and Section 9, which is the western side of the Hudson just north of NYC. Albany area is Section 2. That leaves Section 7 and 10, which is far north. Geographically they're large, but in number of schools very few.
Because of this, the NYSPHSAA playoffs are rather uniform (8 teams per class, 4 west, 4 east, one section winner advances to the 8 spots) EXCEPT for Section 7/10. The two combine for the playoffs but don't have any AA or A (the two largest classes; NYSPHSAA has D, C, B, A, and AA from smallest to largest). This means that there was, historically, only 7 teams in the state playoffs in A, and AA. Also, Section 1 usually has no D schools, so there would also be an empty space in the bracket there.
HOWEVER, recently the western states petitioned that in the event there's an empty slot available, the best Section Runner-up from the west can take that spot so that one team just doesn't get an automatic bye to the state semifinals. It's usually a long trip and a mismatch anyways. But the point is to not give a bye that was an advantage to that team over the other two Eastern teams that had to play.
In reference to this post, many of the Section Finals are held at predetermined sites as one group.
Currently, Section 6 hosts all 5 titles at the Bills' stadium (currently named Highmark Stadium). Section 5 used to host all 5 games at Sahlen's Stadium (the soccer stadium in Rochester), but after that stopped, they moved around to a few high schools as a group, but now they're hosting them at SUNY-Brockport. Though for some reason this year only ONE of the games was played at a different venue. Haven't found out why. Section 3 used to host their games at the Carrier Dome. But in recent years have played at Cicero-North Syracuse, a rather big HS in the area.
Section 4 and the eastern Sections play at either home stadium of a team playing or a chosen neutral site. Section 8 and 11 play for a Long Island Championship. Section 8 holds their Section finals at Hofstra. While Section 11 holds their Section finals at Stony Brook. The LIC is then split beetween the two. Of the 4 championships, the two on Saturday are held at Hofstra last year, and the 2 on Sunday are held at Stony Brook.
if it wasn't clear, Long Island are members of the NYSPHSAA but don't participate in the state playoffs.
Meanwhile, the NYC public schools (the Public School Athletic League or PSAL) aren't members and do their own thing for all sports. For football they have about 55 high school teams and are split, historically, into three classes. They're not by size. if you're good, you'll be moved up. if you're bad you'll be dropped down. Before Covid, the championship was regularly held at Yankee Stadium (old and new). Last year they played at Abraham Lincoln HS's Lincoln Field. I've been there. Very nice stadium. All seating on one side though. Due to space constraints.
Until about a decade ago, the Buffalo City Schools also weren't NYSPHSAA members. Instead they played by themselves for the Harvard Cup. However, they're not full members of Section 6 and Bennett/Olmsted, a city school, is the defending Class AA State Champions.
The Buffalo area private schools (currently 6 teams) are members of the Monsignor Martin Athletic Association and aren't NYSPHSAA or Section 6 members. Years ago they used to host their finals at the Bills' stadium. Now they do not. Usually playing at the higher seed. The schools are the well known Canisius, St. Francis, St. Joseph's and Bishop Timon-St. Jude. Along with Cardinal O'Hara and St. Marys. The two small schools. There's others but don't play football. Some times they split into Large and Small brackets. But not with six schools.
The NYC area teams are members of the NYCHSFL. That includes NYC and Long Island Catholic schools. Most noteworthy would probably be Monsignor Farrell on Staten Island. The private schools in the middle of the state are members of the NYSPHSAA and their associated Section. Bishop Grimes in Syracuse area, Rochester Aquinas, McQuaid Catholic, along with Batavia Notre Dame, Utica Notre Dame, and a few smaller schools. Also the Christian Brothers schools in several cities are members.
The MMAA and NYCHSFL hold a state championship for the two champs, but it's tough to look up the older records. It hasn't been played much and there seems to be a year-to-year deal on whether the two champs will play and where.
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TheBigRed1
Active member
Wow. So it is very doable and the excuses of venues not hosting really has nothing to do with costs.
simkon
Well-known member
The thing you have to understand is each state has its own unique situation. Especially with some NFL and college stadiums/domes being paid in part or in full by the state, and the state can then dictate to the primary tenants that the high schools are going to utilize the stadiums at no cost and set all the terms of the rental/usage. The state of Ohio does not own or have the ability to tell the Browns, Bengals, Buckeyes or any D-I college with the exception of Dayton what to do with their stadium. The state would have some say over the use of Welcome Stadium and could set the terms theoretically, but that is because it is DPS (which gets state funding) and not owned by the University which is private. Some states funded stadiums with provisions for their use as the state sees fit for high school athletics and other events.
Sykotyk
Well-known member
Minnesota law requires that the Vikings give the stadium, adequately staffed, to the MSHSL for 7 days a year. That's 3 state semifinal days and 2 state championship days. The other two days were formerly for soccer. Not sure what they do now since the semifinals used to be 12 games over two days (games started at about 9am years ago). But with the jump to 7 classes forced them to add another day of games.
Iowa just loves playing at the dome and UNI loves hosting them. They've hosted the state finals 50 years now and the semifinals about 30 years. UNI makes sure they're on the road the week of the semifinals and they have a home Saturday game the week of the finals. That pushes the state finals to be on Thursday and Friday.
Two schools just 2 miles apart (West Des Moines Valley and West Des Moines Dowling Catholic) regularly face off in the semifinals or finals and travel all the way to Cedar Falls for the game, hours away.
fleadog101
Active member
Interesting sidebar to the Stadium issue for one and starters the National average size for a High school football Stadium nationwide is 10,750 and second. Ohio has some of the most dumpiest of high school football stadiums that are considerably even less than that in capacity that needs serious upgrades to them
EHS 2001
Moderator
Hamilton County owns Paul Brown Stadium. The Bengals' lease, however, is a literal case study in how to not negotiate a stadium agreement.
fleadog101
Active member
Cleveland leases as well from Cuyhoga County and that lease is up in 6 years
EHS 2001
Moderator
The state and Cuyahoga and Hamilton counties are going to be asked to build two new stadia in the next decade or so. If we're going to shell out $2-3 billion per stadium, hopefully one or both of the teams are smart enough to build a dome this time.
fleadog101
Active member
Funny to that both could end up in the Burbs like the Chicago Bears in Arlington Heights as of right now there is a 78% Chance for both Cleveland and Cincinnati for that to happen
Sykotyk
Well-known member
Which county outside Cuyahoga has the resources or population base to go after a stadium with the voter base who would actually vote FOR a tax increase?
Sure there's the state, but same problem, just bigger. Name five good suburban sites around Cleveland that wouldn't just be a stadium surrounded by parking lots. Today is about mixed use. Apartments, condos, restaurants, clubs, entertainment, etc. That's not in a field in Medina. Nobody wants to build "just" a stadium. Chicago is massive and Arlington Heights is still a growth area. Cleveland suburbia doesn't have a growth area with the finances to go a suburban stadium.
The only new suburban stadium that's been a success is the Braves stadium but that's a huge boom area of Atlanta moving northwest of the loop towards Marietta and points northwest. And it was compared to one of the worst stadiums in the worst neighbor with little parking. There's a reason the Falcons new stadium was built right next to the old one.
Cleveland is either building a new stadium where the old one sat, somewhere east of the CSU, or near the post office. The only real long shot outside the city would be in Berea by the airport. But that really loses the possibility of the mixed use idea. Berea isn't a growth area now. You'd basically tear down some warehouses and build a stadium under a flight path. It would be Pontiac, Michigan 50 years later.
As sad as it is the best location would be the Browns play a year in Columbus like the Bears did in Champaign while a full tear down and rebuild happens at the current site. Hell, they could even go the Chargers route and play at the MLS stadium. And guess who owns it?....
simkon
Well-known member
County owned and state owned are two different things. And the terms of the lease for the primary tenants (the Browns/Bengals) dictate what you can and can't do. The NFL teams would have to accept a provision for high school use on an annual basis which they probably wouldn't do.
Sykotyk
Well-known member
It's not as bad for the venue as you might think.
Imagine a facility charges $250k per day to rent the facility. If they're required to host the state association, bare minimum, they simply then sponsor the event, look like the good guy, and then write off the $250k regular rate even if it cost them far less for the day.
The Colts are in a similar situation. The Lucas Oil Stadium is managed and ran by the Capital Improvement Board. That's why the ISHA will never be forced out from hosting there. It's also why it's one of the few stadiums that will not follow the NFL stadium rules for non-NFL events. When I went with my daughter years ago, we called ahead about a stroller and were told specifically that they're welcome with no restrictions. And the number of strollers was unreal compared to most high school title games I've been to. The lady on the phone said "We run this stadium, not the NFL."
Imagine a facility charges $250k per day to rent the facility. If they're required to host the state association, bare minimum, they simply then sponsor the event, look like the good guy, and then write off the $250k regular rate even if it cost them far less for the day.
The Colts are in a similar situation. The Lucas Oil Stadium is managed and ran by the Capital Improvement Board. That's why the ISHA will never be forced out from hosting there. It's also why it's one of the few stadiums that will not follow the NFL stadium rules for non-NFL events. When I went with my daughter years ago, we called ahead about a stroller and were told specifically that they're welcome with no restrictions. And the number of strollers was unreal compared to most high school title games I've been to. The lady on the phone said "We run this stadium, not the NFL."
Vincent and Regina
Well-known member
I have done research and off the top of my head, I know the Colts, Lions, Steelers, Ravens, Vikings, Raiders, Saints, Patriots, Cowboys, Bronocos, Gians/Jets, and Falcons all host State Finals or Semi Finals at their home fields. The Browns and Bengals are just two organizations that do not care about the community.
When people say it can't be done, those are the people that haven't ever left Ohio.
When people say it can't be done, those are the people that haven't ever left Ohio.
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Sykotyk
Well-known member
Steelers host the WPIAL Finals and charge $250k. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It's that reason the WPIAL is now looking to possibly leave Acrisure Stadium. McDonald's was their main sponsor and the games were aired on FSN/Root/AT&T Sportsnet for years and last year wasn't televised. The jump in attendance didn't make up for the loss. Tickets are $10 each, so they need 25,000 throughout the four games to break even just on tickets. They need a title sponsor and they need TV. Cowboys do it because in Texas it's hugely profitable and they three qualified sites (Jerry World, NRG, and Alamodome) bid for it and Jerry Jones is smart. He takes next to nothing for a rent fee, but gets a higher cut of ticket sales, as well as all of the concessions and parking. In the end, it costs more to host there than NRG, HOWEVER in a year like Covid restrictions, the UIL still made out great and Jones was the one that took the big hit.
Not sure the deal with the Broncos, but they only host the big schools there. Small schools were at Aurora HS and now at CSU-Pueblo. Ravens stopped hosting MSPHSAA games years ago. They're at Naval Academy now. Went one year. Ravens couldn't even be bothered to turn on their video boards. It was just one small ribbon board that was on for the score and time. Raiders deal was part of the arrangement for funding. NIAA gets a crack at hosting games there (3 of 5 games will be in the North or South and the other two at the other end of the state, unless both teams in the final are from the other side and are scheduled to be opposite, they can switch). Saints have been huge proponents of hosting the HS games, not sure the arrangements, but I think the Saints don't have a lot of say in it. One time I went there they had really good crowds so it probably makes sense financially to host there. Now that Tulane has their own stadium that would make sense. LSU wouldn't without turf. 9 games over two weekends, even in mid-December would be a horrible playing surface.
MetLife and Foxboro are both situations where they're required to host if available. I think there's a fee involved, but it's heavily discounted. Massachusetts is forced to squeeze all six title games into one day, which is why for their state titles they play ten minute quarters instead of twelve to get them all in. MA now has 8 classes, but 6 'regular'. The other two are tech schools, etc and generally aren't playing at Gillette. Though covid has messed everything up. Haven't seen where they were last year.
New Jersey is just required. And ticket prices are set by the state association and regulated highly. Tickets at MetLife Stadium when I've gone were $9 for the entire day. Most NJ HS games are $2 at most (also restricted by the NJSIAA). Falcons used to host the state semifinals (10 games over two days) while the state title was held at the higher seed (a very weird arrangement, also the state final had no OT, could end with co-champs). They went to hosting the state finals instead over two days. When Mercedes-Benz Stadium opened, the GHSA played their finals there, but the cost was just too much. A few years ago the GHSA moved the games to Georgia State Stadium (formerly old Turner Field). The reason was a nearly $500k rental cost. They just announced in December they're going back to MBS. No word on the cost. I know talking to the Corky Kell they're paying nearly $250k to rent out MBS for one day but their ticket sales, television revenue, and sponsors justify that cost. But it's still a struggle.
By the way, GHSA charges $23/day for the state finals in Georgia. But you get to stay all day and see up to 4 games when I went. Now, they have the girls' flag football games as well and it's spread over 3 days. Not sure what the price will be but figure over $23.
MassillonK1D330
Well-known member
Because it's adds extra revenue? And they play Saturday afternoon games last I checked OHSAA plays on Friday as well not just Saturday then you also got to look at the fact not saying that Mount Union needs help recruiting obviously because they are a pretty successful program but that will also give their coaching staff and recruiting staff a chance to watch some of the local talent that they might not get a chance to see throughout the year.
MA has eight real classes now. This year they played three games Friday and five games Saturday at Gillette. Full 12-minute quarters. In 2021 there was a potential conflict with MLS playoffs that forced them to move the games to Wednesday through Friday. Kraft Sports Productions also produces a broadcast which is streamed for free on the Patriots website.
The tech/voke school thing is a separate tournament organized by the vocational school AD association (MVADA) rather than the MIAA. It is mostly for schools that don't make the regular state playoffs, although I think you can still join the MVADA playoffs if you lose in the first round. Historically the tech/voke schools had very weak athletics programs (despite playing down several divisions from their enrollment), hence the interest in their own tournament, but demographics have changed at some of them in recent years and they are starting to have more success.
Might I suggest that the finals should be held at Nordonia High School?
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No one does anything outside after thanksgiving in Iowa or Minnesota, especially football!! The many fine football stadiums in Ohio are more than capable of hosting semi-final games. They provide the intimate feeling of intense games that cavernous college stadiums could not, I am prejudiced, but there is no better place to watch a game than Arlin Field in Mansfield.
Sykotyk
Well-known member
Name a high school stadium that:
A) has adequate seating with reasonable amount on the visitor side that has similar view (i.e., elevated if there's a track, etc).
B) Has adequate parking for the expected crowds
C) Adequate lighting for television broadcasts
D) Pressbox capable of space for the number of outlets that want to cover semifinals/finals
E) Adequate sideline space at the stadium (those with tracks have plenty, ones without can have issues when it comes to a major neutral site game where you get state coverage AND the onslaught of local coverage from potentially two different areas of the state)
Very few stadiums have actually good quality lighting. Very few. Just because it's good enough for your Friday night home game doesn't mean it's good enough for broadcast quality television. The next thing that ruins most remaining stadiums is the facility big enough for the press/media/broadcasters. There's a reason OHSAA has hopped between Massillon, Canton (Fawcett), Ohio State and Canton (Tom Benson)... they have huge press facilities to handle the broadcasting and all the coverage. They also have plenty of field space, etc.
Parking is more 'fan experience' issue but a lack of parking becomes an issue for choosing to attend or sit at home and watch the broadcast of the game. Seating is more of an issue. Might have a 10k seat stadium, but if 8k are the home side, and 2k are the visitor side, with the way people spread out at GA seating you might only have real room for 5k and 1500 and if both fan bases are fairly equal there will be issues with overflow.
It is not easy.
BirdDog10
Well-known member
I haven't seen 1 playoff game across any division in the past 10 years that needed more than 6,000 seats, and that's being generous. We can complain all we want about the venues not feeling "big" enough - it doesn't matter because people just don't attend games like they used to.
BirdDog10
Well-known member
The OHSAA also thought it was a good idea to host all of the 2020 championships at Fortress Obetz, in the days of "social distancing" they thought they could pull it off with 1 joke of a press box and 1 side of bleachers
simkon
Well-known member
For starters the D-III State Championship game had around 8,000 fans, and Canfield also had a full stadium against New Philadelphia and Aurora, probably had about 5,000 fans including SRO. I think Canfield vs Poland had about six to seven thousand fans in the regular season. The D-V state championship game also had over 6,000 fans off the top of my head. Mind you that Canfield and Canfield South Range both had more fans than Bloom-Carroll and Ironton respectively, that said if they had played the games at Welcome or Troy or anywhere not in NEO, they would have had substantially less fans. However if the games are in Canton, Massillon, Akron, etc the attendance would be around 8,000 as it actually was in reality.
AllSports12
Moderator
To many on here, the mere existence of a "stadium" means the state finals should be held there.
No matter the cost.
Maybe a semi-final site would be hard, but I think it would be great if they played all the regional finals in the same place. Most MAC(college) schools won't be using their stadiums by late November but could play 4 games on Saturday and 3 on Sunday. Use the Doty in NWO, Akron in NEO, OU in the SEO, and Welcome in SWO.
Yes you would be playing games during an NFL Sunday, but I still think if one ticket got you into all the games that day, a lot of people would come
Yes you would be playing games during an NFL Sunday, but I still think if one ticket got you into all the games that day, a lot of people would come