St. Xavier Boys

Rohbino

Well-known member
I'm surprised that there have not been any comments here about the St. X boy's superb and dominating district performance this past weekend. They took places 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, (11), & (38) for 19. A 46ish second 1-5 gap and 15:45 average time. The 1-4 gap was only 23 seconds. If they can tighten up the #5 I don't see anyone beating them at state. For me it's hard to fathom Hudson being #1 in the latest OATCCC poll and getting 8 of the 1st place votes. I honestly believe that the team that would give St. X the best competition at state is, unfortunately, D2. I would love to see them go head-to-head at some point. Perhaps in Terre Haute?

VOA District A Results
 
One could argue that St. X's competition in the district race was not that tough. You can't argue that they are really good and can challenge for the state title. It does bode well for them if they can keep that 1-5 gap low like they did this past weekend. I'm rooting for them. Now , if only Elder and the rest of the GCL South can improve in the future and compete with the Bombers....
 

Rohbino

Well-known member
One could argue that St. X's competition in the district race was not that tough. You can't argue that they are really good and can challenge for the state title. It does bode well for them if they can keep that 1-5 gap low like they did this past weekend. I'm rooting for them. Now , if only Elder and the rest of the GCL South can improve in the future and compete with the Bombers....
The competition wasn't that tough but even if Mason would have been in the same district, I feel that St. X still wins comfortably. Not nearly as a big of a margin but not razor thin either. Since St X and Mason were the top 2 seeds at VOA it was pretty much guaranteed that they would not be in the same district. I was somewhat surprised that Kings didn't show a little better. West was respectable and Loveland was a pleasant surprise with their 3rd place finish.

I don't see St X being challenged to a great degree at regional or state though I'm pegging Mason as the runner up.

The Pickerington Regional is very strong and will be fun to watch. Davidson, Lincoln, Pick North, and Orange are all very close but it seems to me, at this point anyway, that the other 3 have a sight advantage over Orange.

Boardman will also be competitive and, as has been demonstrated many times in the past, the times that are being run in the NE districts can't be compared to the rest of the state as they tend to be a bit higher. Hudson, Solon, and Kenston all look strong. I still don't see how Hudson is #1 in the OATCCC poll over St. X. I thought St. Iggy would be stronger. It looks like they have a very strong front runner without a lot of support. Does anyone know if they were missing runners at district? While Mentor looks strong I thought they would challenge Kenston more than they did.

From Tiffin, unless I'm missing something, it seems that Ashland and Perrysburg are going to be the strongest sides.

For me the most intrigue at the state meet for D1 boys is going to be the race for 2nd place. There are a lot of teams in the mix. I mentioned that Mason is my favorite for the 2nd spot but my hunch tells me that they'll be challenged most strongly by Hudson, Solon, Lincoln, Davidson, and possibly Pick North.

As I alluded to in the first post here, Woodridge is the team in Ohio that I feel would give St. X the most competition. It's too bad that they can't line up against each other.
 
From Tiffin, unless I'm missing something, it seems that Ashland and Perrysburg are going to be the strongest sides.
Something would have to really wrong for those two teams not to make it to state. They are clearly the two best team out of NW again this year.
 

EuclidandViren

Active member
St. X is very good. But remember it is not about the times. Don't let the fast times fool you.

It is about head-to-head matchups.

The regional will be an eye-opener.
 

Rohbino

Well-known member
I did a virtual meet of the two teams using their average times and X beats W 18-39 https://oh.milesplit.com/virtual-meets/results
How do these virtual meets on Milesplit work? I've never used them. I get my data and info by scouring timing websites and talking to people. Does the virtual meet function strictly go by time or does it adjust the times based on course grades? As E&V pointed out above:
"....remember it is not about the times. Don't let the fast times fool you. It is about head-to-head matchups."

If times are not adjusted for differences in courses, the virtual meet function doesn't have a lot of value. Everyone knows that there are big differences in course difficulty and, as careful as meet directors or those setting up the courses try to be, all courses are not exactly 5,000 meters. Cross country is not a sport about precision when it comes to times and distances. Precision in that regard is what track is about.

Lancermania, as long as you have been around the sport you should know that the courses in NE Ohio, in general, are not as fast a those in much of the rest of the state. Woodridge is in NE Ohio. Woodridge runs its district at Lorain County Community College. LCCC is one of the slower district sites in all of Ohio.

If Milesplit does not make a time adjustment based on course grade, the fact that Woodridge runs in its own invitational meet at Cuyahoga Valley NP, would make their average times practically worthless in a virtual meet function. That is a course that in most years only a handful of the guys break 18 minutes and a handful of girls break 21 minutes. All-time there have only been a few, maybe 3 or 4 guys, that have gone under 17 minutes on that course. Maybe a few girls, or maybe only one, have gone under 20 minutes. I believe that Bridget Franek, an Olympic steeplechaser, has the girls' record at somewhere in the low 19s and Michael Bradjic is somewhere around 16:30. Andrew Jordan of Watkins Memorial and now a Washington Husky, ran around 17:30 on that course as a sophomore. As a junior he won by managing to get a hair under 17 and becoming one of the few to have ever accomplished that feat. Point is, if those CVNP times are considered as they are, and not adjusted for course grade, they will skew the virtual meet enough to make it worthless.

Also, Lancer, Woodridge has already proven this season that it can run with the big boys and beat them by winning the large school divisions at both Centerville Friday Night Lights and the Medina XC Festival. If they had run the large school division at the Boardman Invite they probably would have won that as well.

Unless St. X and Woodridge actually line up against one another, we really don't know what would happen. Anything else, a virtual meet or whatever, is just speculation.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
They are similar teams. I assume X has an advantage at 1. If they don't, then Woodridge is better. X 2-4 and Woodridge 1-5 are tightly grouped. X 5 would give back all X gained at 1. Bay is a good team and Woodridge burried them. Woodridge would have won the D1 Boardman rather easily. Woodridge is running better and better each week. Woodrige is running the season without their #4 from last year. injured week 1. With him, they would be real good. I think X is just as good at this point. Nov 2, we can put X in the D2 race results and Woodridge in the D1 results and make a better assessment.
 

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
This brings back memories of the 2006 Woodridge-La Salle discussion of who was better. Psycho_dad help me out here if I get the facts wrong from the memory bank of an old foggy. Woodridge beat La Salle head to head at two meets that year, one I believe was Worthington, can't remember the other. Then each won state and I did what you suggested. I put La Salle's times at state in the DII meet and LS won, then putting Woodridge times in the DI meet, Woodridge won. The argument was supposed to be settle when both teams went to the Nike Cross Nationals that year. LS did beat W but as I recall one of W top runners was injured and couldn't run in Portland.
 

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
Any idea how Woodridge would do against LaSalle this year? I need to know.
You know as well as anyone that Woodridge would put up a perfect score on La Salle, probably all seven in ahead of LS. What might be interesting is if both teams could run their whole squads how many would W put in before LS first: 10, 15, 20 or even more. I bet if W pulled a Centerville on LS, they would definitely beat them with a "B" team, possible even with a "C" team
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
FOOD POISONING! Put him in at NTN at the same place as #2 and Woodridge would have beat La$alle. Either way, they were very evenly matched teams and both very good.

Woodridge will see hard times at some point. Just not in the next 3 years for the boys. The girls have put on a real nice run. Some girls this year have improved a ton in one year and have put them in a position to qualify to state.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
You know as well as anyone that Woodridge would put up a perfect score on La Salle, probably all seven in ahead of LS. What might be interesting is if both teams could run their whole squads how many would W put in before LS first: 10, 15, 20 or even more. I bet if W pulled a Centerville on LS, they would definitely beat them with a "B" team, possible even with a "C" team
No, I didn't know that for certain. I haven't followed LaSalle the past few years, and I dumped my milesplit account after realizing that I looked at the site maybe twice a year in the spring. I got tired of blowing money on something I didn't use, and I stopped using it because I got tired of reading articles about who found the largest pancake to run on the previous weekend.
 
Woodridge will see hard times at some point. Just not in the next 3 years for the boys.
The way the division cut off numbers are going it might be in two years when schools with 250 boys are D1. I am exaggerating but the cut-off was closing in on 400 several years ago and is now under 300. Woodridge would become just another good D1 team.
 

Seek Up

Active member
This brings back memories of the 2006 Woodridge-La Salle discussion of who was better. Psycho_dad help me out here if I get the facts wrong from the memory bank of an old foggy. Woodridge beat La Salle head to head at two meets that year, one I believe was Worthington, can't remember the other. Then each won state and I did what you suggested. I put La Salle's times at state in the DII meet and LS won, then putting Woodridge times in the DI meet, Woodridge won. The argument was supposed to be settle when both teams went to the Nike Cross Nationals that year. LS did beat W but as I recall one of W top runners was injured and couldn't run in Portland.
Midwest Meet of Champions:

1. Woodridge 50
2. LaSalle 79
3. Chardon 88
 

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
FOOD POISONING! Put him in at NTN at the same place as #2 and Woodridge would have beat La$alle. Either way, they were very evenly matched teams and both very good.
I seem to recall that the runner in question Scott Hidlitch did run at NCN, just finished way back 117th out of 140 for Woodridge's fith scorer after winning the DII Ohio state meet in 15:46.
 
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psycho_dad

Well-known member
Food poisoning will do that. I
The way the division cut off numbers are going it might be in two years when schools with 250 boys are D1. I am exaggerating but the cut-off was closing in on 400 several years ago and is now under 300. Woodridge would become just another good D1 team.
In the last 15 seasons, I believe Woodridge would have placed top 10 in D1 8 times. Would not have qualified to the state 3 times. Podium twice. How many other D1 teams would have that success? That's a little more than just another good D1 team. No, they would not have dominated like they have in D2, but they would have been about where the girls team has been in D2 and that's pretty darn good. They would be about where Medina has been for D1 boys and who wouldn't take that?
 
Food poisoning will do that. I

In the last 15 seasons, I believe Woodridge would have placed top 10 in D1 8 times. Would not have qualified to the state 3 times. Podium twice. How many other D1 teams would have that success? That's a little more than just another good D1 team. No, they would not have dominated like they have in D2, but they would have been about where the girls team has been in D2 and that's pretty darn good. They would be about where Medina has been for D1 boys and who wouldn't take that?
So, a good D1 team; usually qualifies to state, a chance to win once or twice every 15 years. Good but really far from dominant. No one would be talking about them on a message board beyond those few times they are in the hunt. If nothing is done to keep that bottom D1 divisional number from dropping, D2 will keep getting weaker and weaker and more and more D1 teams will have very little chance to have a prolonged impact, even the best D2 boys team over the past 15 years.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Best D2 team EVER! Soon to be best boys program in state EVER! Who knew once Woodridge overtook Akron North, it would steam roll like this?.

Show me many D1 teams that would have done better than that. However, D1 needs to be split into 2 divisions.

<150 151-300 301-600 601 and above
 
My intent is not to demean Woodridge in any way. I read your intent is to trumpet Woodridge at all costs. There is nothing wrong with that and you should be proud. I believe their dominance is due to great coaching, support, community, tradition, and many other admirable traits. My point is that the XC equal numbers in 3 divisions doesn't allow many programs the same opportunities when they are competing against schools 2-3 or more times their size combined with very large enrollments. By your word, if Woodridge was D1 they would be relevant once or twice every 15 years and that is in your words "the best D2 team EVER!" This shows how ridiculous D1 is for schools with 700 or less. I randomly picked a number (700) so it probably needs adjusted. Like Woodridge would be, schools like Kings, Thomas Worthington, Watkins-Memorial, and Dublin and Hilliard schools are relevant at the top once or twice every 15 years. If all those schools were D2, Woodridge would remain very good, but nowhere close to the dominent team that they are. D1 definitely needs split but it only seems to be an issue for the handful of schools affected and an old guy like me who coached at a school with 400-500. If the numbers keep dropping it might be an issue to Woodridge in a few years.
 

ccalum

Member
Going back St.X, as they were the start of this thread ...
D1 Troy predictions?
St.X finishes first unless they get food poisoning :) ... then Mason, then who?
I think five teams (Lebanon, Lakota West, Beavercreek, Turpin and Tipp) all have solid shots at those 3-4-5 spots.
 

yj_runfan

Well-known member
My intent is not to demean Woodridge in any way. I read your intent is to trumpet Woodridge at all costs. There is nothing wrong with that and you should be proud. I believe their dominance is due to great coaching, support, community, tradition, and many other admirable traits. My point is that the XC equal numbers in 3 divisions doesn't allow many programs the same opportunities when they are competing against schools 2-3 or more times their size combined with very large enrollments. By your word, if Woodridge was D1 they would be relevant once or twice every 15 years and that is in your words "the best D2 team EVER!" This shows how ridiculous D1 is for schools with 700 or less. I randomly picked a number (700) so it probably needs adjusted. Like Woodridge would be, schools like Kings, Thomas Worthington, Watkins-Memorial, and Dublin and Hilliard schools are relevant at the top once or twice every 15 years. If all those schools were D2, Woodridge would remain very good, but nowhere close to the dominent team that they are. D1 definitely needs split but it only seems to be an issue for the handful of schools affected and an old guy like me who coached at a school with 400-500. If the numbers keep dropping it might be an issue to Woodridge in a few years.
The ability of Woodridge to keep the team at the level they do is probably due, in part, to the very real chance to be state champs every year. If they were just another good team in D1 the interest in running CC might not be as high at the school as it has been.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
The ability of Woodridge to keep the team at the level they do is probably due, in part, to the very real chance to be state champs every year. If they were just another good team in D1 the interest in running CC might not be as high at the school as it has been.
Chicken or the Egg? The girls team seems to show they might still be successful without the real chance of being state champs every year.

Some rough times when the National park crushed the population of Peninsula, but the school is back up to 1970's population. Maxed out at this point.

Only two head coaches since 1965. It's always been a CC school. Many top individuals.

The chance of winning the state can't hurt, but it's not the only thing fueling the engine.
 
The ability of Woodridge to keep the team at the level they do is probably due, in part, to the very real chance to be state champs every year. If they were just another good team in D1 the interest in running CC might not be as high at the school as it has been.
I agree and that is also why it is not a perfect comparison to take times at the state meet and plug them into a different division. How many you have to pass and how tough it is to get by, how fast the race goes out, fighting for a win versus a top 10 finish, and many more reasons. I plug them in to compare also but it is not a given it will finish that way. St. X in D2 or Woodridge in D1 might run very different times than what they ran in their given division.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
I think Woodridge is just lucky. While other teams work hard, Woodridge loafs and banks on luck. I'm sure if they ever did run against D1 teams, they would either go out too slow or too fast and not really know how to move through and finish. It would be a disaster. I plugged their times in for Centerville and Medina meets and they would have done okay. Actually put them in those races physically and I'm sure they would choke.
 

Rohbino

Well-known member
Going back St.X, as they were the start of this thread ...
D1 Troy predictions?
St.X finishes first unless they get food poisoning :) ... then Mason, then who?
I think five teams (Lebanon, Lakota West, Beavercreek, Turpin and Tipp) all have solid shots at those 3-4-5 spots.
It seems you've pretty much nailed it....

1. St X
2. Mason
3. In no particular order - Lebanon, West, Creek, Turpin, Tipp, and I actually believe that Loveland might have an outside shot. I thought Kings would show better at district but they've got too much to overcome.

Loveland's girls and boys seem to have improved. I don't know if they have the same coaches but it seems like they have some good things going on. The girls and boys teams are also young and have most of their varsity coming back next year so I see good things coming from them.
 

grange45

Member
Besides mason and x, there are 4-5 teams vying for those last 3 qualifying spots. Those teams have looked very similar in the race results. It should be fun to watch but think Lebanon, Tipp, and Turpin look the strongest over the past couple of weeks. But I think it will come down to their 5th runner (like always).
 
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