Spring Football

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xhscoach

Well-known member
serpico said:
A few thoughts here:
1) Correlation does not equal causation. States that offer spring practices are often warm-weather states where spring practice is more feasible. If Minnesota allowed spring football practice, would it really put their kids a year ahead of where they are now?
2) This applies to maybe the top 1% of all high school football players. Do the benefits of ‘getting better at football’ outweigh the decreased spring sports participation for the other 99%?
3) Spring practice benefits people in Kirby Smart’s position, thus I doubt you’d see him arguing against it.
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1. Yes, more reps means more opportunities to improve. It’s cold in the late season and in the playoffs in Ohio, do teams stop practicing then?
2. That is a valid concern, but I would look to other states to see how they make it work. Baseball is huge in the south and they have spring ball.
3. That’s a specious argument; he wasn’t arguing for or against, just stating a fact.
 
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xhscoach

Well-known member
hammer89 said:
A reminder that the stated mission of the OHSAA is to increase participation in all sports. The development of athletes in a single sport, or the development of any sport at all, is not their goal or mission.
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While true, these days I don’t consider the OHSAA as anything but an organizer of tournaments.
 
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hammer89

Well-known member
xhscoach said:
While true, these days I don’t consider the OHSAA as anything but an organizer of tournaments.
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That’s fine too. Point is, they don’t care if Ohio is the absolute worst state in the country in football, if there are still teams participating in their tournament. People seem shocked to find out the OHSAA goal is not the development of any athletes skills or the national standing of any particular sport.
 
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shoprat2

Active member
Bottom line. Is the purpose of high school football to prepare players for college? If it is then the hs are doing a lousy job going on the numbers provided by the NCAA. The vast majority of hs players are not going to play in college even at the D3 level. Would spring football be good for them?
 
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zski71

Active member
hammer89 said:
That’s fine too. Point is, they don’t care if Ohio is the absolute worst state in the country in football, if there are still teams participating in their tournament. People seem shocked to find out the OHSAA goal is not the development of any athletes skills or the national standing of any particular sport.
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It is also not their goal to prevent development. Thats a reason all other sports are allowed clubs in their out of school time.
 
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zski71

Active member
shoprat2 said:
The vast majority of hs players are not going to play in college even at the D3 level. Would spring football be good for them
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7 on 7 club could be good for them. I would argue it could also get other athletes involved depending on the season.
 
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hammer89

Well-known member
zski71 said:
It is also not their goal to prevent development. Thats a reason all other sports are allowed clubs in their out of school time.
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But, being the predominantly popular sport, it could decrease participation in spring sports. Hence, the rule, as that goes against their stated goal. Reminder- OHSAA is a voluntary organization, and the schools can vote to change this rule any time they like.
 
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zski71

Active member
hammer89 said:
it could decrease participation in spring sports
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I know many cases of boys not playing hs football due to fall club baseball. I know of many cases of girls not playing hs basketball due to club volleyball. I know cases of girls not playing hs softball due to club volleyball and club soccer. In these cases it is a choice the parents and child made. OHSAA should rightfully allow parents and children to make a choice to play club 7 on 7. I actually believe the OHSAA rule prohibiting club 7 on 7 during hs basketball and baseball season is unconstitutional. If I took my son to play on a 7 on 7 club out of Louisville, KY, what right does OHSAA have to refuse. Parents have rights over their children as long as its reasonable. I don’t see how anyone can claim club 7 on 7 is unreasonable.
 
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xhscoach

Well-known member
shoprat2 said:
Bottom line. Is the purpose of high school football to prepare players for college? If it is then the hs are doing a lousy job going on the numbers provided by the NCAA. The vast majority of hs players are not going to play in college even at the D3 level. Would spring football be good for them?
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Yes…yes, it is. Is it the purpose of high schools to prepare students to work in a field that a boss deems them worthy to do so?

Unless you want to follow the Academy model, if schools provide these opportunities, they should strive to be great.
 
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hammer89

Well-known member
zski71 said:
I know many cases of boys not playing hs football due to fall club baseball. I know of many cases of girls not playing hs basketball due to club volleyball. I know cases of girls not playing hs softball due to club volleyball and club soccer. In these cases it is a choice the parents and child made. OHSAA should rightfully allow parents and children to make a choice to play club 7 on 7. I actually believe the OHSAA rule prohibiting club 7 on 7 during hs basketball and baseball season is unconstitutional. If I took my son to play on a 7 on 7 club out of Louisville, KY, what right does OHSAA have to refuse. Parents have rights over their children as long as its reasonable. I don’t see how anyone can claim club 7 on 7 is unreasonable.
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There is no constitutional right to sports participation, so no, it isn’t unconstitutional.

and they have that right because they’re a voluntarily, private, organization. Don’t like the rule? Don’t join the organization. The schools don’t have to join the OHSAA, nor does a parent have to send their child to an OHSAA school.
 
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zski71

Active member
hammer89 said:
There is no constitutional right to sports participation, so no, it isn’t unconstitutional.

and they have that right because they’re a voluntarily, private, organization. Don’t like the rule? Don’t join the organization. The schools don’t have to join the OHSAA, nor does a parent have to send their child to an OHSAA school.
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An arbitrary rule that imposes restrictions on life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness can certainly be deemed unconstitutional.
Now name me one public taxpayer funded school that is not part of OHSAA.
 
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hammer89

Well-known member
zski71 said:
An arbitrary rule that imposes restrictions on life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness can certainly be deemed unconstitutional.
Now name me one public taxpayer funded school that is not part of OHSAA.
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You clearly aren’t familiar with constitutional law, especially in regards to the OHSAA. The rule stands just fine. Just like when parents sue and say the transfer rule is unconstitutional. They lose.

I know some of the larger metropolitan school districts have schools that aren’t part of OHSAA, but regardless, it’s a choice. There are 1,152 public high schools in Ohio, and only 830 OHSAA members.
 
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Blue Jay Fan

Well-known member
What would a week or two in spring look like with spring football? If your baseball team plays 3-4 games a week, what do the other 3-4 days look like? Track has 1-2 meets per week. How many football practices in 7 days? Do we make Sunday off limits and make a "week" 6 days? What would a 7 or 14 days schedule look like in April in Ohio. Just curious.
 
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zski71

Active member
hammer89 said:
Just like when parents sue and say the transfer rule is unconstitutional. They lose
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There have been court victories against OHSAA. Now most transfer requests are probably just approved. The 7 on 7 issue is different as football is being arbitrarily singled out with greater restrictions for club competition compared to other sports. Other club sports restrictions were recently relaxed by allowing increased students from a single school on the same club.
 
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hammer89

Well-known member
zski71 said:
There have been court victories against OHSAA. Now most transfer requests are probably just approved. The 7 on 7 issue is different as football is being arbitrarily singled out with greater restrictions for club competition compared to other sports. Other club sports restrictions were recently relaxed by allowing increased students from a single school on the same club.
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Not on the topic of the transfer rule itself, just in how it’s applied to specific cases. When the rule itself is challenged, which is what you’re describing, OHSAA has a 100% win rate.
 
The Dock

The Dock

Proud of the Lady Irish!
zski71 said:
There have been court victories against OHSAA. Now most transfer requests are probably just approved. The 7 on 7 issue is different as football is being arbitrarily singled out with greater restrictions for club competition compared to other sports. Other club sports restrictions were recently relaxed by allowing increased students from a single school on the same club.
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Those “victories” happen because of TRO’s and injunctions, which fundamentally are not victories as much as they are hometown judges saying ‘sure, why not.’
 
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zski71

Active member
The Dock said:
Those “victories” happen because of TRO’s and injunctions, which fundamentally are not victories as much as they are hometown judges saying ‘sure, why not.’
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Its a victory if the kid gets to play and its still a ruling against OHSAA.
 
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zski71

Active member
hammer89 said:
Not on the topic of the transfer rule itself, just in how it’s applied to specific cases. When the rule itself is challenged, which is what you’re describing, OHSAA has a 100% win rate.
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Things change. Maybe OHSAA is overly lenient with transfers now because another real challenge to their rules may not go their way. Precedents do change. I doubt anyone has ever legally challenged OHSAA to permit 7 on 7 clubs, but that would be interesting.
 
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smurfyeah19

Well-known member
Ohio has probably the best overall high school sports system I have seen, many states are a complete joke outside of football. I’m okay with what we have now, puts emphasis on other sports
 
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hammer89

Well-known member
zski71 said:
Things change. Maybe OHSAA is overly lenient with transfers now because another real challenge to their rules may not go their way. Precedents do change. I doubt anyone has ever legally challenged OHSAA to permit 7 on 7 clubs, but that would be interesting.
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I agree that no one has challenged them on the issue, but I don’t think it would work for anyone that did. Especially when it’s so easily solved outside of a lawsuit.
 
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reganaustinjames

Well-known member
Blue Jay Fan said:
What would a week or two in spring look like with spring football? If your baseball team plays 3-4 games a week, what do the other 3-4 days look like? Track has 1-2 meets per week. How many football practices in 7 days? Do we make Sunday off limits and make a "week" 6 days? What would a 7 or 14 days schedule look like in April in Ohio. Just curious.
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There are two plausible answers to this question:

1. Chaos. Especially in smaller schools in which spring sports will undoubtedly be affected; utter unadulterated chaos. But the more plausible answer is...

2. We'll never know. Because it will never happen.
 
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zski71

Active member
hammer89 said:
Especially when it’s so easily solved outside of a lawsuit.
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I agree it should be easy. Just let the ones that want to play 7 on 7 club play. I went back and checked the tweet saying OHSAA was for the clubs and OHSFCA was against. The tweet was posted by an ohio HS coach.
I really don't think the participation in these clubs would be such that other sports would lose out on that many players.. KY, IN, and MI aren't overrun with these clubs. They really only exist in the larger cities. Most of the facilities that could host clubs are filled by indoor soccer, lacrosse, baseball, and softball. The expense and travel would deter others.
What I mainly feel is that parents and students should be free to make the choice. I prefer government and quasi-government organizations to stay out of that decision making process.
 
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hammer89

Well-known member
zski71 said:
I agree it should be easy. Just let the ones that want to play 7 on 7 club play. I went back and checked the tweet saying OHSAA was for the clubs and OHSFCA was against. The tweet was posted by an ohio HS coach.
I really don't think the participation in these clubs would be such that other sports would lose out on that many players.. KY, IN, and MI aren't overrun with these clubs. They really only exist in the larger cities. Most of the facilities that could host clubs are filled by indoor soccer, lacrosse, baseball, and softball. The expense and travel would deter others.
What I mainly feel is that parents and students should be free to make the choice. I prefer government and quasi-government organizations to stay out of that decision making process.
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I would still argue parents *do* have a choice, you just don’t happen to like the choice they have.
 
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