Soccer Refs

Saw an incident a couple weeks back. Wow, that's all I have to say.

Goalkeeper from Team A collects the ball in between penalty spot and top of the box. Ball took a couple of bounces to GK's chest. Easy grab for the GK. Team B forward tries running down the ball, obviously not going to get it NOR was the forward going to make contact with anyone. Team A GK sticks foot out and blatantly trips Team B forward. Forward does not go down, but there was contact.

Referee correctly whistles the foul. Yellow card to GK. Substitution for Team A GK because of the yellow card. Referee then awards an indirect free kick to Team B in the box! No coach says a word. No AR says a word. Fans going crazy (they never saw the trip, have no idea why there was a yellow card).

Ensuing indirect free kick was taking a little extra time. Team B was trying to get CR to move Team A forward from top of the box so they could lay ball back and shoot it -- wall was 10 yards away, but Team A forward wasn't. Everyone was asking CR how long does Team B have to take the free kick. All of a sudden, CR blows his whistle and awards Team A the free kick for, I'm guessing, a "shot clock violation." Team A hurriedly plays the ball and tries to get up the field! Play continues.

How in the world does this take place? No one remedied the situation. CR nor ARs say anything to coaches at halftime about the situation. Absolutely baffling to see this happen. From my understanding, the CR is not new to refereeing either. No words. Should never happen.
 
belied dat said:
Saw an incident a couple weeks back. Wow, that's all I have to say.

Goalkeeper from Team A collects the ball in between penalty spot and top of the box. Ball took a couple of bounces to GK's chest. Easy grab for the GK. Team B forward tries running down the ball, obviously not going to get it NOR was the forward going to make contact with anyone. Team A GK sticks foot out and blatantly trips Team B forward. Forward does not go down, but there was contact.

Referee correctly whistles the foul. Yellow card to GK. Substitution for Team A GK because of the yellow card. Referee then awards an indirect free kick to Team B in the box! No coach says a word. No AR says a word. Fans going crazy (they never saw the trip, have no idea why there was a yellow card).

Ensuing indirect free kick was taking a little extra time. Team B was trying to get CR to move Team A forward from top of the box so they could lay ball back and shoot it -- wall was 10 yards away, but Team A forward wasn't. Everyone was asking CR how long does Team B have to take the free kick. All of a sudden, CR blows his whistle and awards Team A the free kick for, I'm guessing, a "shot clock violation." Team A hurriedly plays the ball and tries to get up the field! Play continues.

How in the world does this take place? No one remedied the situation. CR nor ARs say anything to coaches at halftime about the situation. Absolutely baffling to see this happen. From my understanding, the CR is not new to refereeing either. No words. Should never happen.
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Nope. Should never happen. That was a good critical comment, belied dat. Thanks.

Good thing you guys didn't see my game tonight. I was horrible. Some nights you just don't have it and tonight I didn't.

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phatneff said:
Nope. Should never happen. That was a good critical comment, belied dat. Thanks.

Good thing you guys didn't see my game tonight. I was horrible. Some nights you just don't have it and tonight I didn't.
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I have no idea who you are phatneff, but those comments are so refreshing to hear from referees (I am assuming you are one). Sometimes coaches and players just need to be reassured that referees will admit a mistake and correct it. Many times the issues I've come down to with referees are they will seemingly NEVER back down from their decision to admit it was wrong.

I've tried in the past to get a better dialogue with officials. It only works to the game's advantage IF referees and coaches can get along better to provide a better experience FOR the players and FOR the fans.

In the scenario I provided, there was more than enough time to get the call right from CR, AR1, and AR2. It was not bang-bang or rushed. The last thing I want from any decision is the wrong decision to impact players negatively. I've seen it happen too many times, players should not be punished -- especially those in the interscholastic/intercollegiate setting where it's all supposed to be an educational environment. It's not hard to do things properly to rectify situations.
 
Biggest problem is numbers, we are way short on Referees, we lose more every year then we replace, we desperately need younger referees

I have worked games EVERYDAY of the eligible game days , only day I didn’t work was because of a rainout.

Simply not enough guys to give adequate coverage
 
belied dat said:
I have no idea who you are phatneff, but those comments are so refreshing to hear from referees (I am assuming you are one). Sometimes coaches and players just need to be reassured that referees will admit a mistake and correct it. Many times the issues I've come down to with referees are they will seemingly NEVER back down from their decision to admit it was wrong.

I've tried in the past to get a better dialogue with officials. It only works to the game's advantage IF referees and coaches can get along better to provide a better experience FOR the players and FOR the fans.

In the scenario I provided, there was more than enough time to get the call right from CR, AR1, and AR2. It was not bang-bang or rushed. The last thing I want from any decision is the wrong decision to impact players negatively. I've seen it happen too many times, players should not be punished -- especially those in the interscholastic/intercollegiate setting where it's all supposed to be an educational environment. It's not hard to do things properly to rectify situations.
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Its all about acting adult. A normal discourse can be had with a majority of officials if body language, tone all show respect.

As a coach, you screw up the game that cost kids game. Refs will also, so will players. Refs get the most heat, and its wrong. I would love a ref to say, hey coach, that formation was really dumb. You have to do better! Of course that is absurd, but coaches would act different if all there mistakes were big and visbile and people confronted them on the spot.

Let us take away sports, a grown man should not confront another grown man with loud discourse or inappropriate body language. Put that conversation in the grocery store, and there is a problem.

Said another way, Just because you are in a sporting arena, grown men should talk to each other as such. (I dont care what happens in the pros).
 
I need some help understanding a call I saw in a game last night. I'll try and describe the scenario quickly and the result. Centerback wins ball at his own 18. Makes an on the ground leading (as in not to feet) pass to his holding mid, who is approaching the ball from an angle and running onto it looking at it over his shoulder. Hope you follow that.

At the edge of the center circle he gets a touch to turn up field and runs directly into the Ref who was just standing there watching the ball roll at him. He didn't move an inch. When the collision happens, the holding mid grabs the ref by the arms just above the elbow to steady them both immediately after the impact.

There is not an opposing player within 15 yards of this impact as they were pushed quite far forward when the centerback won the ball.

Immediately after being "run into" the center ref blows his whistle, issues the holding mid a yellow card and awards the opposing team a direct free kick from the spot of the collision.

I was close enough to hear the coach ask if the card was for language and hear the ref say no.

I've watched a lot of soccer for many many years. I have never seen a call like that.

Someone tell me why?
 
2731 said:
I need some help understanding a call I saw in a game last night. I'll try and describe the scenario quickly and the result. Centerback wins ball at his own 18. Makes an on the ground leading (as in not to feet) pass to his holding mid, who is approaching the ball from an angle and running onto it looking at it over his shoulder. Hope you follow that.

At the edge of the center circle he gets a touch to turn up field and runs directly into the Ref who was just standing there watching the ball roll at him. He didn't move an inch. When the collision happens, the holding mid grabs the ref by the arms just above the elbow to steady them both immediately after the impact.

There is not an opposing player within 15 yards of this impact as they were pushed quite far forward when the centerback won the ball.

Immediately after being "run into" the center ref blows his whistle, issues the holding mid a yellow card and awards the opposing team a direct free kick from the spot of the collision.

I was close enough to hear the coach ask if the card was for language and hear the ref say no.

I've watched a lot of soccer for many many years. I have never seen a call like that.

Someone tell me why?
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Is it because he grabbed the ref?
 
winbypin said:
Is it because he grabbed the ref?
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That's the only thing I can think of which was why I included it in the description. But I'll say the kid didn't know the ref was there he was looking at the ball. The grab was reflex to stay on his feet.

Without the grab I think they both would have went down.

It was one touch on the ball and smack... it's not like the kid looked for the ref and grabbed him.

But anyway, if it isn't the grab (which is lame) I don't know what else it could be.

But that also doesn't explain the restart methodology.
 
2731 said:
That's the only thing I can think of which was why I included it in the description. But I'll say the kid didn't know the ref was there he was looking at the ball. The grab was reflex to stay on his feet.

Without the grab I think they both would have went down.

It was one touch on the ball and smack... it's not like the kid looked for the ref and grabbed him.

But anyway, if it isn't the grab (which is lame) I don't know what else it could be.

But that also doesn't explain the restart methodology.
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Yea, I guess that wouldn't explain the restart would it? Weird. I am sure a ref will stop by and maybe add some insight.
 
winbypin said:
Yea, I guess that wouldn't explain the restart would it? Weird. I am sure a ref will stop by and maybe add some insight.
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yeah... I'll add this, IF the ref was an opposing player instead, the grab probably would have warranted a foul being called on the holding mid. However, even that foul probably would not have warranted a yellow. It just wasn't that violent.

But there were no opposing players near this incident at all.
 
Did you notice an abundance of players or balls hitting this ref? I have seen refs get testy when players, coaches and fans start moaning that they can't get out of their own way. If the mids had been complaining all game he could have taken it as aggression from the player.
 
Upper 90 said:
Did you notice an abundance of players or balls hitting this ref? I have seen refs get testy when players, coaches and fans start moaning that they can't get out of their own way. If the mids had been complaining all game he could have taken it as aggression from the player.
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No. The ref maybe got hit with a ball one other time and I actually think it was after this instance and he never got hit by another player.

While I did say he didn't move an inch, to be fair I think he just got caught ball watching. It was definitely not like he was "in the way all game long".

This occurred about halfway through the first half and was the only yellow of the game.
 
2731 said:
I need some help understanding a call I saw in a game last night. I'll try and describe the scenario quickly and the result. Centerback wins ball at his own 18. Makes an on the ground leading (as in not to feet) pass to his holding mid, who is approaching the ball from an angle and running onto it looking at it over his shoulder. Hope you follow that.

At the edge of the center circle he gets a touch to turn up field and runs directly into the Ref who was just standing there watching the ball roll at him. He didn't move an inch. When the collision happens, the holding mid grabs the ref by the arms just above the elbow to steady them both immediately after the impact.

There is not an opposing player within 15 yards of this impact as they were pushed quite far forward when the centerback won the ball.

Immediately after being "run into" the center ref blows his whistle, issues the holding mid a yellow card and awards the opposing team a direct free kick from the spot of the collision.

I was close enough to hear the coach ask if the card was for language and hear the ref say no.

I've watched a lot of soccer for many many years. I have never seen a call like that.

Someone tell me why?
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Clearly no one knows all the facts

BUT

This sounds like a combination of an accident and a very poorly positioned ref. As a ref you should never be directly in front of a player coming forward. Get the heck out of the way. That is 'no mans land' there and only leads to trouble.

Why did he make that call? Sounds like someone who was embarassed and placed the blame elsewhere.

And yes I'm a ref.
 
I was told last night that 4 games in southwest Ohio were postponed/cancelled due to lack of available officials. I am also told there were a couple games in which schools were considering playing despite having only one available official. The past three games I have attended had only 2, which most soccer fans should recognize is a very difficult task. I speak to officials after every game I cover and I can assure you they are concerned about the situation and are discouraged by having to use a two person crew. The one thing I find very interesting in all of this is that no matter the outcome of any game, I always hear one team's fans suggesting that the officials cost them the game and the others lamenting having to beat the other team and the officials in order to get the victory. So in my eyes, one of the following has to be true. The officials are doing their best and not favoring either team and parents/fans are 100% the issue, or every official that has participated in any of the 45 or so jv/varsity games I have witnessed in person this year all suck.
 
Matt Goeller said:
I was told last night that 4 games in southwest Ohio were postponed/cancelled due to lack of available officials. I am also told there were a couple games in which schools were considering playing despite having only one available official. The past three games I have attended had only 2, which most soccer fans should recognize is a very difficult task. I speak to officials after every game I cover and I can assure you they are concerned about the situation and are discouraged by having to use a two person crew. The one thing I find very interesting in all of this is that no matter the outcome of any game, I always hear one team's fans suggesting that the officials cost them the game and the others lamenting having to beat the other team and the officials in order to get the victory. So in my eyes, one of the following has to be true. The officials are doing their best and not favoring either team and parents/fans are 100% the issue, or every official that has participated in any of the 45 or so jv/varsity games I have witnessed in person this year all suck.
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The person that started this thread would say they all suck. I don't fall into that line of thinking though. Some are really good. Some aren't as good. It's the way it is. Overall, in the games I have seen (not near 45) they have been pretty good.

Maybe someone can help me but do they consider the match-up when assigning refs to certain games? I have seen a few games in the past few years where the crew seemed a little over-matched for the level of the game.
 
I have officiated youth soccer for 20 years and am probably going to hang up the whistle next month. I have pretty thick skin and usually remember in my head that I understand the laws of the game and you don't. I also have officiated nearly 700 games and watched my kids be a part of 400 more. I am pretty well conditioned to anticipate and see an actual shove, or trip versus two players going down, or someone falling over a ball. And yes, I see that trailing defender push your daughter in the back, but your daughter is still dribbling the ball towards the goal and my yelling 'Play On' indicates this. Please accept my allowing your advantage. I also bit my tongue this week when you yelled that I must be blind and need glasses. I wanted to ask you what I should tell my son, the optometrist, to add to my contacts, readers and sunglasses. But my feet hurt and I am getting tired of doing games short-handed, either without one AR, or by myself. It's not worth it.
 
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Matt Goeller said:
I was told last night that 4 games in southwest Ohio were postponed/cancelled due to lack of available officials. I am also told there were a couple games in which schools were considering playing despite having only one available official. The past three games I have attended had only 2, which most soccer fans should recognize is a very difficult task. I speak to officials after every game I cover and I can assure you they are concerned about the situation and are discouraged by having to use a two person crew. The one thing I find very interesting in all of this is that no matter the outcome of any game, I always hear one team's fans suggesting that the officials cost them the game and the others lamenting having to beat the other team and the officials in order to get the victory. So in my eyes, one of the following has to be true. The officials are doing their best and not favoring either team and parents/fans are 100% the issue, or every official that has participated in any of the 45 or so jv/varsity games I have witnessed in person this year all suck.
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What level were these games?

Most D3 schools around here (Northeast Ohio) use a 2 man system. My sons play at a D3 school so I see it quite a bit.

Are you sure it was because of a shortage or was it the schools choice? it's usually up to the school. It's cheaper to do a 2 man system.

I'm not disputing the shortage, just curious as to the details.

There is one simple fix though:

If everyone that complained about officiating got licensed this wouldn't be an issue.

At the last game I refereed I heard no less than 25 potential referees offer their opinions.
 
winbypin said:
The person that started this thread would say they all suck. I don't fall into that line of thinking though. Some are really good. Some aren't as good. It's the way it is. Overall, in the games I have seen (not near 45) they have been pretty good.



Maybe someone can help me but do they consider the match-up when assigning refs to certain games? I have seen a few games in the past few years where the crew seemed a little over-matched for the level of the game.
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Without being too specific, yes and no, certain asssignors did take into account the league or school/schools and assigns specific referees for those games, but mostly it’s the luck of the draw or whoever is available
 
Another thing you have to remember is that not only is there a shortage of referees, there is an even more shortage of "good" referees. So on a Saturday, there will be the most games being played than on a weeknight. If there already is a shortage of referees, trying to find referees to cover all the games on a Saturday is a very tough task to undertake. Late in the season, referees go down due to injuries, or they have to cancel their assignment due to emergencies or family matters, or they simply haven't been assigned due to prior obligations. It can't be expected that every referee be available for every game on every day or night, especially on a Saturday. It's just not possible. So if those four games that were cancelled had officials assigned to them, it was probably the case that a late scratch of those referees occurred due to some unforeseen circumstance. Nobody else was available to fill in for them because of other assignments, obligations, or injuries. With each year that comes and referees get older, it's going to happen more because there aren't enough new referees that are coming in to keep up with the demand.

As for good referees being assigned to more competitive games, that does happen. The problem here is that most of the better referees are a part of a crew with other good referees. Because of that, 2-3 good referees get assigned to a game instead of being spread out among several games with a good center referee for each game. That means there will be some competitive games that may not have good referees working them if they're being used as a crew for other competitive games, especially on a Saturday.

I hope all of that rambling made sense. Lol

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EastYoungstown said:
What level were these games?

Most D3 schools around here (Northeast Ohio) use a 2 man system. My sons play at a D3 school so I see it quite a bit.

Are you sure it was because of a shortage or was it the schools choice? it's usually up to the school. It's cheaper to do a 2 man system.

I'm not disputing the shortage, just curious as to the details.

There is one simple fix though:

If everyone that complained about officiating got licensed this wouldn't be an issue.

At the last game I refereed I heard no less than 25 potential referees offer their opinions.
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In sw ohio, the standard for varsity games is 3 officials. generally 2 officials work the jv game and a third comes in as the referee and the two who did the jv game are a.r.'s for the varsity game. In the cases I have reported on this thread, I am 100% certain that there were originally 3 assigned, but that the southwestern buckeye league put out a league wide request for host schools to relinquish one official to another site so that games could be played. In the first case, Valley View and Oakwood agreed to give up one so that a game at Dixie high school could be played, as did Eaton High school that same night. In the other, a game at Oakwood with Eaton visiting, I was specifically told by the on site host personnel that the shortage has caused the same thing to happen. After the game, I was speaking to the officials, as I am a freelance writer covering Oakwood games this season. I asked, for my own information how difficult it was for a 2 person crew to do a game at this level. Both suggested they would much prefer having 3, but that the shortage not only had caused this situation at their site, but that there had been cancellations of hs games that very night in sw Ohio, due to a lack of available officials. I believe they suggested the number was 4-5 cancelled games. and please note, my original comment was not intended to be a shot at officiating. It was meant to show that regardless of the effort or success of the crew, those in the stands seem to leave dissatisfied and that sentiment seems to be almost universal at the hs and club levels I have watched over the years.
 
Most D3 games in the Dayton area have been using 2 whistle crews for years. Especially as you get more rural. Some of the "bigger" games will get 3 ref crews if possible. I think you are correct that in D1 & D2 the standard is 3 refs. That is what I have seen as well.

I know of a few games that have been cancelled due to lack of officials, even for a 2 whistle crew. The ones I have heard of have been reschedules of rainouts from early September. It seems the games that have been on the schedule since the beginning of the season still have refs assigned. At least that what I have seen & heard around the area.
 
winbypin said:
Most D3 games in the Dayton area have been using 2 whistle crews for years. Especially as you get more rural. Some of the "bigger" games will get 3 ref crews if possible. I think you are correct that in D1 & D2 the standard is 3 refs. That is what I have seen as well.

I know of a few games that have been cancelled due to lack of officials, even for a 2 whistle crew. The ones I have heard of have been reschedules of rainouts from early September. It seems the games that have been on the schedule since the beginning of the season still have refs assigned. At least that what I have seen & heard around the area.
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thanks wbp, i appreciate that clarification.
 
bucksman said:
I can't think of a school where a referee is getting 100 for a "single". At least in NE Ohio, depending on the league, AR's are getting 40-50 (JV ref fee is in that range as well) for a game while the (center) referee for a varsity game is getting 50-60.

Nobody is saying you can't criticize the officiating, just that it might be counter-productive to do so, depending on the way in which one goes about it.
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D1 refs pay:
AR's $95 (Combined for JV and V)
Center $65 (Varsity only)
 
steelboot said:
D1 refs pay:
AR's $95 (Combined for JV and V)
Center $65 (Varsity only)
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That's not a standard. It's based on the conference. Some conferences pay different than others even if they are all in the same division.

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Matt Goeller said:
In sw ohio, the standard for varsity games is 3 officials. generally 2 officials work the jv game and a third comes in as the referee and the two who did the jv game are a.r.'s for the varsity game. In the cases I have reported on this thread, I am 100% certain that there were originally 3 assigned, but that the southwestern buckeye league put out a league wide request for host schools to relinquish one official to another site so that games could be played. In the first case, Valley View and Oakwood agreed to give up one so that a game at Dixie high school could be played, as did Eaton High school that same night. In the other, a game at Oakwood with Eaton visiting, I was specifically told by the on site host personnel that the shortage has caused the same thing to happen. After the game, I was speaking to the officials, as I am a freelance writer covering Oakwood games this season. I asked, for my own information how difficult it was for a 2 person crew to do a game at this level. Both suggested they would much prefer having 3, but that the shortage not only had caused this situation at their site, but that there had been cancellations of hs games that very night in sw Ohio, due to a lack of available officials. I believe they suggested the number was 4-5 cancelled games. and please note, my original comment was not intended to be a shot at officiating. It was meant to show that regardless of the effort or success of the crew, those in the stands seem to leave dissatisfied and that sentiment seems to be almost universal at the hs and club levels I have watched over the years.
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Thanks for the info. Just curious.
 
phatneff said:
As for good referees being assigned to more competitive games, that does happen. The problem here is that most of the better referees are a part of a crew with other good referees. Because of that, 2-3 good referees get assigned to a game instead of being spread out among several games with a good center referee for each game. That means there will be some competitive games that may not have good referees working them if they're being used as a crew for other competitive games, especially on a Saturday.


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Everyone says, the "good" referees need to be assigned to the perceived competitive games and everyone wants to be assigned the big #1 vs 2 games, the lesser "quality" of games takes just as much if not more game management skills by a "Referee Team".
Bottom line there should be "Good" Referees on every game. :hello:
 
winbypin said:
Most D3 games in the Dayton area have been using 2 whistle crews for years. Especially as you get more rural. Some of the "bigger" games will get 3 ref crews if possible. I think you are correct that in D1 & D2 the standard is 3 refs. That is what I have seen as well.

I know of a few games that have been cancelled due to lack of officials, even for a 2 whistle crew. The ones I have heard of have been reschedules of rainouts from early September. It seems the games that have been on the schedule since the beginning of the season still have refs assigned. At least that what I have seen & heard around the area.
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And what is the logic to D3 soccer is only worthy of 2 referees vs D1 & 2? Same number of players on the pitch. pitch is the same size.
D3 playing by different rules?
 
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