RECRUITING!!!!

Public schools don’t own the kids. They want to because each kid comes with funding from the state. I would think most parents make choices about their child’s education based on their own child’s best interest. Many parents feel sports build character and many other traits they want to develop in their child. I know people that choose schools for their band program, strong academics, and a lot of other reasons. In my opinion, school competition and school choice is good for all the students and all the programs. And maybe your kid at one school is treated like a number and someone comes along and acknowledges their hard work or unique talent. I would think a large percentage of parents would think that a good thing, not a bad thing.
 
Private institutions like to say they stand for values but when push comes to shove they have little. Moeller may not get punished for any violations because they are hard to prove but the damage to there reputation has already been done. They have won on the field but now winning has become more important than character. It takes years to build a solid reputation and just a few bad choices to ruin it.
I agree. There is enough out there. If a Catholic school valued their reputation. But more importantly wanted to uphold the values they claim to instill In young men they would forfeit season and turn themselves in. It’s a complete contradiction and the students see it. Those who are aware of what goes on in relation to soccer anyway.
 
I agree. There is enough out there. If a Catholic school valued their reputation. But more importantly wanted to uphold the values they claim to instill In young men they would forfeit season and turn themselves in. It’s a complete contradiction and the students see it. Those who are aware of what goes on in relation to soccer anyway.

lol
 
Say what you want about Moeller, but their varsity roster on paper looks to be built for continued success in the coming years.

4 Seniors
9 Juniors
6 Sophomore
6 Freshmen

As opposed to a team like St X

14 Seniors
6 Juniors
 
Say what you want about Moeller, but their varsity roster on paper looks to be built for continued success in the coming years.

4 Seniors
9 Juniors
6 Sophomore
6 Freshmen

As opposed to a team like St X

14 Seniors
6 Juniors
That looks like a few college programs ... higher numbers for the younger players, recruit transfers that were successful somewhere else for 2 years.
 
Say what you want about Moeller, but their varsity roster on paper looks to be built for continued success in the coming years.

4 Seniors
9 Juniors
6 Sophomore
6 Freshmen

As opposed to a team like St X

14 Seniors
6 Juniors
No doubt. St X does not aggregate talent on varsity, but as far as I know, all these kids with one exception came through St X since freshman year. The one exception didn’t transfer in but was at the DA. How many of those kids at moeller are transfers that were recruited from other schools?
 
No doubt. St X does not aggregate talent on varsity, but as far as I know, all these kids with one exception came through St X since freshman year. The one exception didn’t transfer in but was at the DA. How many of those kids at moeller are transfers that were recruited from other schools?
6 starters were recruited in from other schools. If you can’t coach em, recruit em. The sad part is he’s run off some fairly good players. Heard from multiple sources Who are in the know so to speak. Even sadder is I guess some of these kids were so disenfranchised with the politics they stopped playing all together.
 
Say what you want about Moeller, but their varsity roster on paper looks to be built for continued success in the coming years.

4 Seniors
9 Juniors
6 Sophomore
6 Freshmen

As opposed to a team like St X

14 Seniors
6 Juniors

So his first move as coach is to tell 3 players they can't dress. Rosters are maxed at 22 for now. And per Moeller policy, only rostered players and two family members are permitted for enter during the game. You made the team, but stay home.
 
6 starters were recruited in from other schools. If you can’t coach em, recruit em. The sad part is he’s run off some fairly good players. Heard from multiple sources Who are in the know so to speak. Even sadder is I guess some of these kids were so disenfranchised with the politics they stopped playing all together.
Please stop spreading false information. Here are the facts: There are 6 total players on Moeller’s varsity roster that came from other schools. 3 came last year (2 sophomores, 1 junior) and 3 this year (all juniors). Four are starters, one is out for the season with an injury, and one is a minor role player. They all came from different schools and play for 4 different clubs. They all went to Moeller for different reasons. It’s overly simplistic to suggest that they came to Moeller just to play soccer, and disingenuous to suggest that any of them were “recruited”.

Moeller didn’t cut any players this year because the coaching staff felt strongly that every player should be part of a team during these uncertain times. Every player that tried out was offered a spot with one of the 3 teams. It’s true that some players chose to leave the program, but that happens in every sport at every school as student-athletes progress through their four years of school. Some aren’t willing to make the commitment of effort and time. Others find that their skills aren’t equal to other players in the program. And others quit because they don’t connect with the coaches. It happens everywhere.
 
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Please stop spreading false information. Here are the facts: There are 6 total players on Moeller’s varsity roster that came from other schools. 3 came last year (2 sophomores, 1 junior) and 3 this year (all juniors). Four are starters, one is out for the season with an injury, and one is a minor role player. They all came from different schools and play for 4 different clubs. They all went to Moeller for different reasons. It’s overly simplistic to suggest that they came to Moeller just to play soccer, and disingenuous to suggest that any of them were “recruited”.

Moeller didn’t cut any players this year because the coaching staff felt strongly that every player should be part of a team during these uncertain times. Every player that tried out was offered a spot with one of the 3 teams. It’s true that some players chose to leave the program, but that happens in every sport at every school as student-athletes progress through their four years of school. Some aren’t willing to make the commitment of effort and time. Others find that their skills aren’t equal to other players in the program. And others quit because they don’t connect with the coaches. It happens everywhere.
I’m not going to debate this. And what your saying are facts aren’t facts. You can stick with your narrative. It’s wrong but stay with it. You seem a little sensitive. Touch a nerve? And 6 players over 2 years on a soccer roster that came from other schools. U don’t think that’s slightly high? A high school football team gets maybe one transfer a year. If that. And no the coaching staff didn’t feel strongly that every player should be part of a team in these uncertain times. The AD told them not to cut anyone. At least be honest.
 
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Please stop spreading false information. Here are the facts: There are 6 total players on Moeller’s varsity roster that came from other schools. 3 came last year (2 sophomores, 1 junior) and 3 this year (all juniors). Four are starters, one is out for the season with an injury, and one is a minor role player. They all came from different schools and play for 4 different clubs. They all went to Moeller for different reasons. It’s overly simplistic to suggest that they came to Moeller just to play soccer, and disingenuous to suggest that any of them were “recruited”.

Moeller didn’t cut any players this year because the coaching staff felt strongly that every player should be part of a team during these uncertain times. Every player that tried out was offered a spot with one of the 3 teams. It’s true that some players chose to leave the program, but that happens in every sport at every school as student-athletes progress through their four years of school. Some aren’t willing to make the commitment of effort and time. Others find that their skills aren’t equal to other players in the program. And others quit because they don’t connect with the coaches. It happens everywhere.

Not that it matters, but your facts are in fact not accurate. It’s a nice story though.

3 of the transfers play for CUP - one for an 03 team, and 2 for 04 CUP Gold. 2 of the players played for Cincinnati Elite FC 04s when they transferred. One of them doesn’t any longer. I don’t know who the other transfer is.
 
Please stop spreading false information. Here are the facts: There are 6 total players on Moeller’s varsity roster that came from other schools. 3 came last year (2 sophomores, 1 junior) and 3 this year (all juniors). Four are starters, one is out for the season with an injury, and one is a minor role player. They all came from different schools and play for 4 different clubs. They all went to Moeller for different reasons. It’s overly simplistic to suggest that they came to Moeller just to play soccer, and disingenuous to suggest that any of them were “recruited”.
There are 4 varsity starters this year (CO, LP, TM, YD) that at least as of summer 2019 (the last time club soccer was actually played competitively because of covid) all play on the same club team and 3 of those 4 are part of this transfer cohort. So they HAVE played together and they DIDN'T go to Catholic grade school and DIDN'T come to Moeller until AFTER their state championship run but "its overly simplistic to suggest they came to Moeller just to play soccer?" They can spin it your way to try and get their #OHSAA exemption but get out of here with your false information plea.

And 25% of a (typical size) roster made up of transfers is always going to raise a few eyebrows (where were you a few years ago with the Deer Park basketball team transfers). If they had come to Moeller as freshman this is not even a topic of discussion, but not only is a quarter of the roster transferring in unheard of but when it also coincidentally happens during a period of needed talent influx (due to graduating two very talented senior classes and losing the most talented senior this year to not playing HS soccer) you can't argue away the skepticism as "disingenuous." I'm a Moeller fan too but I'm keeping them at arm's length on this one, not a fan of the transfer game in high school.
 
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So Droopy. Or is that you Mike? I think what people are trying to say is your disingenuous. Twist the facts to fit your narrative but the stuff that goes on there is so blatant that many people know. When that many in the community and other high school soccer coaches know it gets harder to twist the facts. Someone started an entire thread about his recruiting. Enough people chimed in and where there is smoke the fire is there. But you keep defending and twisting what’s going on. It’s adorable! I don’t mean to be harsh. U have been respectful up until this last post but I’m not having your game.
 
Please stop spreading false information. Here are the facts: There are 6 total players on Moeller’s varsity roster that came from other schools. 3 came last year (2 sophomores, 1 junior) and 3 this year (all juniors). Four are starters, one is out for the season with an injury, and one is a minor role player. They all came from different schools and play for 4 different clubs. They all went to Moeller for different reasons. It’s overly simplistic to suggest that they came to Moeller just to play soccer, and disingenuous to suggest that any of them were “recruited”.

Moeller didn’t cut any players this year because the coaching staff felt strongly that every player should be part of a team during these uncertain times. Every player that tried out was offered a spot with one of the 3 teams. It’s true that some players chose to leave the program, but that happens in every sport at every school as student-athletes progress through their four years of school. Some aren’t willing to make the commitment of effort and time. Others find that their skills aren’t equal to other players in the program. And others quit because they don’t connect with the coaches. It happens everywhere.
I'm not on either side of this debate, but dude, 6 transfers to a varsity roster is huge. Not only can and probably does change the complexion of that varsity team almost completely, but it has affects that ripple through the entire program. That continously happens every year and you can expect loyal families to leave.
 
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I'm not on either side of this debate, but dude, 6 transfers to a varsity roster is huge. Not only can and probably does change the complexion of that varsity team almost completely, but it has affects that ripple through the entire program. That continously happens every year and you can expect loyal families to leave.
Your absolutely right Philly. And I don’t have a dog in the fight either but I hear nothing positive from Moe families in my neighborhood. Both soccer and non soccer Moe families so something is amiss. I know some folks might be big Moe fans but come on. You can’t dismiss what’s right in front of your face. The guy not only recruits kids from other high schools and at least some recruits get HUGE tuition breaks but he recruits 8th graders. Offering varsity spots before they even get to Moeller. He spends Huge money on gear as a cheap ploy. Kids will wear the stuff to their clubs and other boys will see it And say I want to go to Moe. My kid plays soccer at another non GCL high school and this stuff wouldn’t be tolerated. When we all get together in neighborhood I get distinct feeling Moeller families embarrassed and families with younger kids saying if that’s stuff that goes on there my kids not. He also made two transfers captains this year. Joke. In my conversations do things get exaggerated? Probably to a degree but what’s in agreement is it’s wrong. I love the people who get on here and attack me or other people who say what goes on. Typical of our world today. Pick a side and dig in. What should happen is they should focus blame on the school breaking the rules. The one thing that really irritates me is it’s also not fair to other teams on schedule. Moeller would have a hard time winning many games this year if you took away transfers. Do it the honorable way. Coach up your players. That way you can at least look yourself in mirror.
 
Here is what I don't understand... Why are we so invested into Moeller and the coaches life? We are talking about HS Boys Soccer. This isn't life or death here. Think some folks are taking things way to far on this topic. The only way someone can be so invested and wanting so much revenge, is a unhappy parent whose son got cut recently or their kid doesn't play now because a kid transferred to Moeller legally.
 
Here is what I don't understand... Why are we so invested into Moeller and the coaches life? We are talking about HS Boys Soccer. This isn't life or death here. Think some folks are taking things way to far on this topic. The only way someone can be so invested and wanting so much revenge, is a unhappy parent whose son got cut recently or their kid doesn't play now because a kid transferred to Moeller legally.

I think there is likely a finer line here, but I completely agree with you. Will anyone complaining on Yappi make Moeller, or the coach change behavior? No. Are the kids that transferred there getting a better education than they were getting at their public school? Most definitely, especially during these times. There are disgruntled parents at every school. There are 11 spots on a soccer field for varsity players to play. Ultimately the players the coach feels are the best 11 players will fill those spots no matter how they got to the school. Kids need to learn resiliency, how to fight for something they want, deal with adversity, deal with a coach/boss whose personality doesn’t match yours. 4 years seems like an eternity as a kid, but as parents and adults we know it is just a very small slice of life and there are some great lessons to be learned.
 
Here is what I don't understand... Why are we so invested into Moeller and the coaches life? We are talking about HS Boys Soccer. This isn't life or death here. Think some folks are taking things way to far on this topic. The only way someone can be so invested and wanting so much revenge, is a unhappy parent whose son got cut recently or their kid doesn't play now because a kid transferred to Moeller legally.
Has less to do with what you are saying and more to do with people blatantly lying. If someone comes at me I tend to go back harder if I’m right. Maybe I shouldn’t so you give me something to think about there. So thank you for that. But I also don’t think there is anything wrong with calling out bad behavior. But I mention again. Focus the blame where it should be. Those breaking rules.
 
Has less to do with what you are saying and more to do with people blatantly lying. If someone comes at me I tend to go back harder if I’m right. Maybe I shouldn’t so you give me something to think about there. So thank you for that. But I also don’t think there is anything wrong with calling out bad behavior. But I mention again. Focus the blame where it should be. Those breaking rules.
I respect your response, so thank you for that.

Here is my thoughts on this.. There are 2 sides to every story... Its impossible to gather the truth with 2 different parties/sides. We are also talking about minors and HS Soccer, it's not the end of the world here. At the end of the day, if someone does something illegal, call OHSAA not publically blast a person on a public forum. The coach also has feelings, a family that can also be affected by the negativity and mud dragging. No one deserves this. The Moeller coach did not murder someone. I have zero skin in the game here, but it just seems harsh to be hating on someone for speculation or not even knowing the 100% accurate truth. To many variables and sides to it, that we may or may not ever know. At the end of the day, those families ultimately decided Moeller was the best fit for their son. Let them be in peace and let the coach be in peace. Way to much hate and negativity over youth sports!
 
Kids that play together in club that want to play together in high school isn’t recruiting.

A parent who teaches in a public school system where her son attends. Recognizes he needs to be put in a better situation academically and socially. And decides to not only send him but also his brother to Moe due to the academics isn’t recruiting.

Kids who want to improve their situation academically, athletically or both and decide to attend a private school isn’t recruiting.

An incoming freshman at a public school that is training with the local HS team but transfers to Moeller mid summer because their parents have concerns about the public school’s remote learning plan isn’t recruiting.

A HS coach who decides to coach club soccer to improve his coaching tactics, refine his skills and learn different styles of play and tricks he can apply in HS isn’t recruiting.

A coach who gets the latest and greatest gear for his team (for which families have to pay a participation and uniform fee) isn’t recruiting.

The fact is Moeller sells itself academically and athletically. Many of their athletic programs have had sustained success, including soccer. The coaching staff has built a family culture at Moe. The kids love playing for him and the parents are invested in the program. There’s clear and open communication from the coaching staff to the families, which is consistent throughout the school from the teachers, administrators, counselors and leadership. They have a style of play that is built on 1-2 touch possession-style soccer, which is consistent with top clubs teams across the country. This is a style of play that attracts players from top clubs as it will help further their development. It attracts college coaches to their best players for recruiting purposes. Academically the school fosters inclusion and brotherhood through their house system, mentor group and many other programs. Proven by the fact that the athletic administration and coaching staff made a joint decision to not cut anyone from the program.

Certainly Moe isn’t for everyone. They’ve had students and athletes transfer out just as they’ve transferred in. That’s what makes America great. The freedom to make a choice that is in the best interest of my family and my son. This freedom should be celebrated, rather than slandered with false accusations and hearsay behind pen names on a blog. Why not write about how great some of the transfers are doing academically, athletically and socially. Or how the Moe soccer family has welcomed them into the family. Or how much the kids respect them ... so much so that the team, not the coaching staff, voted 2 of them to be captains.

Perhaps if the academic and athletic programs were just better at all these schools, kids wouldn’t transfer. I guess it’s a lot easier to throw stones rather than put in the work to just be better.
 
Spot on Scotty. The other thing to add here is they have a ton of talent from the 05 and 06 class from local clubs like CUP, OE and CE. These kids aren't transfers either. They all came as freshmen. The program seems to have a culture around having the best kids train and play with the older kids. That's probably attractive for a number of those kids from top clubs. Many of the schools around the area don't let Freshmen play or practice with Varsity.
 
Six transfers that are making an impact on the starting 11 is crazy and one does not have to think hard to see that the no cut rule was implemented to try and keep quiet the traditional full tuition paying disgruntled parents. I really understand the desire to play with the kids from your club or play with really good players all year around especially in the fall during the traditional soccer season. I also understand that Moeller tries to position itself as THE ATHLETIC PRIVATE school in SWO. The problem is this: it clearly breaks the either the actual rules or the spirit of the rules that all OHSAA schools agree to uphold. They are operating under a different model than just about every other private school and 99% of the public schools in Ohio. So, just like Iggy's hockey program currently does and what I recommend Moeller do in Basketball and what X should in swimming, Moeller soccer should provide a platform for elite level players, withdraw from the OHSAA and play a soccer Prep program. That way , everything is out in the open, everybody knows what is going on and they can justify the really, really high (for Cincinnati) tuition.
 
Kids that play together in club that want to play together in high school isn’t recruiting.

A parent who teaches in a public school system where her son attends. Recognizes he needs to be put in a better situation academically and socially. And decides to not only send him but also his brother to Moe due to the academics isn’t recruiting.

Kids who want to improve their situation academically, athletically or both and decide to attend a private school isn’t recruiting.

An incoming freshman at a public school that is training with the local HS team but transfers to Moeller mid summer because their parents have concerns about the public school’s remote learning plan isn’t recruiting.

A HS coach who decides to coach club soccer to improve his coaching tactics, refine his skills and learn different styles of play and tricks he can apply in HS isn’t recruiting.

A coach who gets the latest and greatest gear for his team (for which families have to pay a participation and uniform fee) isn’t recruiting.

The fact is Moeller sells itself academically and athletically. Many of their athletic programs have had sustained success, including soccer. The coaching staff has built a family culture at Moe. The kids love playing for him and the parents are invested in the program. There’s clear and open communication from the coaching staff to the families, which is consistent throughout the school from the teachers, administrators, counselors and leadership. They have a style of play that is built on 1-2 touch possession-style soccer, which is consistent with top clubs teams across the country. This is a style of play that attracts players from top clubs as it will help further their development. It attracts college coaches to their best players for recruiting purposes. Academically the school fosters inclusion and brotherhood through their house system, mentor group and many other programs. Proven by the fact that the athletic administration and coaching staff made a joint decision to not cut anyone from the program.

Certainly Moe isn’t for everyone. They’ve had students and athletes transfer out just as they’ve transferred in. That’s what makes America great. The freedom to make a choice that is in the best interest of my family and my son. This freedom should be celebrated, rather than slandered with false accusations and hearsay behind pen names on a blog. Why not write about how great some of the transfers are doing academically, athletically and socially. Or how the Moe soccer family has welcomed them into the family. Or how much the kids respect them ... so much so that the team, not the coaching staff, voted 2 of them to be captains.

Perhaps if the academic and athletic programs were just better at all these schools, kids wouldn’t transfer. I guess it’s a lot easier to throw stones rather than put in the work to just be better.

Here is the OHSAA bylaw that addresses recruiting. It is worth reading to understand the context of why this discussion exists beyond just a disgruntled parent or two from the school. https://ohsaaweb.blob.core.windows.net/files/Eligibility/4-9GuidanceRecruiting.pdf
 
There are 4 varsity starters this year (CO, LP, TM, YD) that at least as of summer 2019 (the last time club soccer was actually played competitively because of covid) all play on the same club team and 3 of those 4 are part of this transfer cohort. So they HAVE played together and they DIDN'T go to Catholic grade school and DIDN'T come to Moeller until AFTER their state championship run but "its overly simplistic to suggest they came to Moeller just to play soccer?" They can spin it your way to try and get their #OHSAA exemption but get out of here with your false information plea.

And 25% of a (typical size) roster made up of transfers is always going to raise a few eyebrows (where were you a few years ago with the Deer Park basketball team transfers). If they had come to Moeller as freshman this is not even a topic of discussion, but not only is a quarter of the roster transferring in unheard of but when it also coincidentally happens during a period of needed talent influx (due to graduating two very talented senior classes and losing the most talented senior this year to not playing HS soccer) you can't argue away the skepticism as "disingenuous." I'm a Moeller fan too but I'm keeping them at arm's length on this one, not a fan of the transfer game in high school.
Look, I won’t argue that the optics of the Moeller transfers are bad, at least from the outside. And in general, I’m not an advocate for kids jumping schools in high school. After all, this isn’t big-time college athletics.

I do want to set the record straight on the four students you mention above. TM and LP both came to Moeller as freshmen and their fathers are both Moeller alums. They attended catholic grade schools, were never transfers, and were both on the Moeller roster during the state championship run. CO and YD were their club teammates (YD has since left that club team) and transferred from Milford and Lasalle as sophomores for different reasons, which I won’t get into out of respect for their privacy.

Another transfer (RM) came last year as a junior and has seen limited minutes, then three CUP kids this year (2 from ‘04 Gold, 1 from ‘03 Gold). (And there is a junior whose family moved from another distant state to Blue Ash this summer who is a back-up keeper. I forgot about that student in my earlier post.)

Look, I’m not a Moeller coach or employee, but I’ve had a son go through the program a few years ago and know many families still in the program. There are unquestionably some families unhappy about the transfers and the Moeller philosophy of “the best play, regardless of class”, but most families seem very happy that their sons have the opportunity to be part of a top-notch program and continue their development year-round. The coach has some rough edges that sometimes
draws negative attention, but I attribute that to his passion, no different than a lot of HS coaches across different sports.
 
I’m not going to debate this. And what your saying are facts aren’t facts. You can stick with your narrative. It’s wrong but stay with it. You seem a little sensitive. Touch a nerve? And 6 players over 2 years on a soccer roster that came from other schools. U don’t think that’s slightly high? A high school football team gets maybe one transfer a year. If that. And no the coaching staff didn’t feel strongly that every player should be part of a team in these uncertain times. The AD told them not to cut anyone. At least be honest.
My point was that you indicated that 6 starters were “recruited from other schools”. That is factually wrong. There are 4 starters who weren’t at Moeller as freshmen. I won’t argue with you about how or why they ended up at Moeller, since that is open to interpretation, but the numbers are the numbers. It sounds like you might have an inside track with the Moeller AD, so maybe you can enlighten us more on what is really going on there.
 
Here is the OHSAA bylaw that addresses recruiting. It is worth reading to understand the context of why this discussion exists beyond just a disgruntled parent or two from the school. https://ohsaaweb.blob.core.windows.net/files/Eligibility/4-9GuidanceRecruiting.pdf
In fairness, the OHSAA bylaw is so broad that a coach/school would need to be very blatant in their actions to ever be found guilty of recruiting. If a student has an interest in transferring to another school and contacts the school or takes a shadow day at that school and asks for more information about a specific sport the school offers, then the coach can converse freely with the prospective student. All non-public schools have to market and “sell” the value they offer prospective students, so no one should be surprised that a lot of dialogue occurs between potential students and their families and the administrators, teachers and coaches at a school prior to enrollment. It’s a fine line for sure.
 
We can argue how many, (some will argue even if any), of these kids were recruited. Moeller has a recruiting reputation going back to the 70s with Faust. We've all been around the block and realize that some of the religious schools do not live up to their stated values in terms of playing fairly and by the rules. I know of several instances at the Catholic grade school level.
As for a better education, IMO that is debatable. For students that come from strong families and reasonably good economic environment, their education is much more dependent on the student and the parents. There are pros and cons of going to a parochial school. I say that as a proud GCL alum.
 
Here is the OHSAA bylaw that addresses recruiting. It is worth reading to understand the context of why this discussion exists beyond just a disgruntled parent or two from the school. https://ohsaaweb.blob.core.windows.net/files/Eligibility/4-9GuidanceRecruiting.pdf
Thanks for sharing this. This is actually quite fascinating to me. I had no idea that public schools actually have a recruiting advantage in that they are allowed to talk to 7/8 graders in their district which are often WAY bigger than the private schools. It is really funny that they don’t take advantage of this. I live in a very large district and there was no effort what so ever by the high school coaches to even learn what players are in their district. I even went to the open house which was overall poorly run and didn’t even have the coaches there. We made the decision on private school by visiting the open house of some private schools and were wowed by how much more maturely the kids represented themselves. ALL coaches in all sports were present at all the private schools we went to and answered all questions thoroughly. The public schools made no effort. It is almost like the gov’t vs the private sector...private sector always gets the better talent because they actually make the effort. And no...there was definitely not a discount involved.
 
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