Public vs. Private .What schools or coaches whine the most about unfair advantages?

StateChampion2012

Well-known member
Wrong. You are correlating Coldwater improperly. Coldwater is a closed district with 147 boys in the school and have 54 boys out 10 through 12 (80 total program). Great program.

Toledo CC has 219 boys and 100 boys out 10 through 12 (140 total program when including freshman). Great program.

The BIG difference is one of these schools has sent guys to Ohio State, Indiana, Louisville, Michigan, Cincinnati, Toledo, Miami (OH), BGSU, Air Force, Notre Dame, Duke, West Virginia over the last 8 seasons. This does not include all of the kids that went D2 & D3. A crazy amount of talent for the number of kids in the building. No DIV public team could boast those numbers. Not even close.
I'm not sure what you mean by closed district. We are open enrollment. Mainly because our school district is weirdly shaped.
 

sapientia et veritas

Well-known member
the larger the pool of really good kids, the better you are going to be. You continue to want to argue that having a big pool isn't an advantage, when you know it is.
Yeah. Same thing happened in the small school division in Darke County. Once Versailles split into North Versailles and South Versailles in 2004, the new schools both lost the advantage of the big pool, and they went from winning 6 state titles in the previous 15 years to zero in the subsequent 15. All about the geography, alright.
 

BigPSH

Active member
Where is this topic supposed to lead to? Forums are for exchanging ideas. This topic is obviously a hot button topic for H.S. football fanatics which we all are.Nobody here is a run of the mill fan.Those people largely never heard of Yappi. Keep posting .It's very informative to hear all the viewpoints here.Otherwise you have a bunch of other threads to choose from.👍
I understand, but this topic has been discussed ad nauseam and it never goes anywhere. Public school fans thinks it helps and Private school fans thinks it hurts. I've never seen one of these thread ever lead to anything besides the opposing sides just complaining.
 

tom 48

Well-known member
I understand, but this topic has been discussed ad nauseam and it never goes anywhere. Public school fans thinks it helps and Private school fans thinks it hurts. I've never seen one of these thread ever lead to anything besides the opposing sides just complaining.
:) Absolutely correct, yet it is always present in one form or another.
 

ColinCat

Active member
Cracks me up that people construct long posts on these therads, actually thinking they will change the opposition's mind.

Good luck with that. Next change their political and religious views.

I am perfectly fine when others say Ignatius wins because of huge advantages. It's true. Doesn't change my opinion one bit.
 

luvmyteam

New member
Can't believe no one has mentioned Trivisonno from Mentor. Each time he has lost to either Iggy or Eds or any other private/Catholic school, he blames it on recruitment. "We play who we get from our city" or "We don't get to have players come from all over". Each and every time. Tiger Laverde at Kirtland is another one who has used that excuse when they lose (not that they lose very often).
 

Hammerdrill

Well-known member
For the 587th time, a larger area doesn’t give Catholic schools an advantage. In Kettering around 2,500 kids go to Fairmont. Around 200 go to Alter. Around 80 go to Carroll. (I’m guessing at the numbers, but the relative numbers are pretty accurate, I believe.)

Around 2,500 kids go to Centerville. Around 250 go to Alter. There is no Catholic high school in Centerville.

Alter has about 580 students in 4 grades. Most come from public school districts that contain no Catholic schools. Many kids ride buses in the morning for an hour. They have to get transportation to their homes that are a good distance from school, because they don’t live in Kettering, if they are involved in extracurricular activities like football.

Alter costs over $10,000 per year, plus pay to play, plus other costs with very limited financial aid.

How is any of that an advantage?

Several years ago, I was at Alter’s liftathon. A very large, well-dressed, Black man was standing alone. I introduced myself to him and asked which player was his son. He showed me his son, a freshman. He told me he worked in a public school, but he pointed to Coach Domsitz. The man said Coach was the reason his son was at Alter. Coach, he said, takes no crap and doesn’t change what he does to satisfy parents. The man wanted that kind of disciplined program for his son, because his son would need self discipline in his life. He didn’t mention anything about football success. He said the cost was difficult, but worth it to him.

Now, THAT’s an advantage. It’s old school values. That family is now a lifetime part of the Alter family. That young man became a starter on the team and earned a D1 college scholarship. To the outside world, some might have thought he was recruited to Alter as a football player. His father made a choice all on his own. He was not on anybody’s radar before he showed up at school with his Dad. It wasn’t first about football, but about life skills.
So if the populations of Kettering and Centerville were to decline significantly, would that make it easier of harder for Alter to attract a certain number of students?

As has already been stated, if you think it is simply the culture at Alter that makes them winners, you are clueless. Again, go tell Ryan Day that getting really good kids doesn't matter, just get kids who will work hard. Also, riddle me this. Jacoby, when he coached at Columbus DeSales was pretty successful. Since he left there, has he had equal success? Why do you suppose he hasn't had the same success? Do you think he just forgot how to coach? Hint, he isn't getting the same talent, that he got at DeSales. Or maybe all of the schools he has been at since, don't have weight rooms?
 

tom 48

Well-known member
Can't believe no one has mentioned Trivisonno from Mentor. Each time he has lost to either Iggy or Eds or any other private/Catholic school, he blames it on recruitment. "We play who we get from our city" or "We don't get to have players come from all over". Each and every time. Tiger Laverde at Kirtland is another one who has used that excuse when they lose (not that they lose very often).

In the early days Triv did that, but he has stopped since he has developed his system and become successful, serving as a model for other large public schools
 
Let all schools recruit. Bet the private schools would all of a sudden have a big problem with it because they would lose their advantage of hand picking their teams.
All schools do recruit! Public schools have 9+ years to recruit kids! Public schools have the “advantage” of an entire community paying for the kids education. Let’s not be fools and believe that there are not advantages and disadvantages to both public and private schools!

How about we keep CB and make it fair! Draw private school districts just like Publics do. If a kid comes up through 8th grade in a private school and goes to a public HS, make him count extra just like the opposite for private’s. If a kid transfers from private to public, have the kid sit the second half of the season just like he would for private’s (how is that in the best interest of the kid anyway?)

Also, make the minimum GPA a 2.0 or higher just like private’s.
 
If any of you believe that public schools don't recruit you are in dreamland. Open enrollment is recruiting. Talking to Privates to return "home" is recruiting. Someone getting an apartment in a new district is recruiting. There is no way to control it.
People don’t want to hear the truth!
 

MentorGrad2002

Well-known member
All schools do recruit! Public schools have 9+ years to recruit kids! Public schools have the “advantage” of an entire community paying for the kids education. Let’s not be fools and believe that there are not advantages and disadvantages to both public and private schools!

How about we keep CB and make it fair! Draw private school districts just like Publics do. If a kid comes up through 8th grade in a private school and goes to a public HS, make him count extra just like the opposite for private’s. If a kid transfers from private to public, have the kid sit the second half of the season just like he would for private’s (how is that in the best interest of the kid anyway?)

Also, make the minimum GPA a 2.0 or higher just like private’s.
Privates would suffer more from that. And would never agree to it
You guys are right that people can't handle the truth. The private school guys acting like they don't have huge advantages are insane.

Like Yankees or red Sox fans telling indians fans to shut up about payroll and their huge media markets giving them more money to spend
 

MentorGrad2002

Well-known member
In the early days Triv did that, but he has stopped since he has developed his system and become successful, serving as a model for other large public schools
He stopped cuz he was probably sick of talking about it and wanted to be politically correct on it. He still knows the obvious advantages are there. Just as people who want to be PC and not argue on here will tell me in the real world how they agree privates have all these advantages

I on the other hand am far from PC and I can give a crap if people don't like it. I'd say the same thing face to face.

It's very easy for private school guys to say get over it when their school reaps the benefits of two different rulebooks

5-7 counties is a lot different than one school district
 
Privates would suffer more from that. And would never agree to it
You guys are right that people can't handle the truth. The private school guys acting like they don't have huge advantages are insane.

Like Yankees or red Sox fans telling indians fans to shut up about payroll and their huge media markets giving them more money to spend
My suggestion isn’t about making anyone suffer, it’s about making everyone play by the same rules. Currently we are not and haven’t been. And you think Private’s not agreeing to something is a huge hurdle? You think private’s all agreed to CB in the first place? And the lawsuit now isn’t about the existence of CB, but rather the parameters of it.

Look, I’ve attended both public and private, I’ve coached at both public and private, my kids have went to both public and private; so what I’m saying is I’ve been on both sides of the equation. Yes, private’s have huge advantages, but again, so do Publics! So let’s all play under the same rules!
 

MentorGrad2002

Well-known member
My suggestion isn’t about making anyone suffer, it’s about making everyone play by the same rules. Currently we are not and haven’t been. And you think Private’s not agreeing to something is a huge hurdle? You think private’s all agreed to CB in the first place? And the lawsuit now isn’t about the existence of CB, but rather the parameters of it.

Look, I’ve attended both public and private, I’ve coached at both public and private, my kids have went to both public and private; so what I’m saying is I’ve been on both sides of the equation. Yes, private’s have huge advantages, but again, so do Publics! So let’s all play under the same rules!
I'm saying I'd gladly play by those rules. Private school guys would go nuts. They'd go way downhill if they had to play guys from one school district like we do. They gain their depth and advantages on the lines with their huge reach for students.
 
I'm saying I'd gladly play by those rules. Private school guys would go nuts. They'd go way downhill if they had to play guys from one school district like we do. They gain their depth and advantages on the lines with their huge reach for students.
But it can’t be the same district. It just doesn’t work that way. Private districts would have to encompass their traditional feeders (like they used to). I do agree that it should basically be impossible for Fenwick and Alter or X and Moeller, etc to be going after the same kids. I also understand that exceptions should be allowed like they are in public schools. This way, we would play under the same rules. Let the best teams win regardless of public/private status.
 

TigerPaw

Well-known member
Mentor is great, Triv is great, big enrollment, don't duck anyone etc. Fact remains the big 4 privates won 9 out of the last 10 championships because of the ability to consistently attract more talent, period.

And I know it is coming so YES Massillon recruits like hell but private schools won the last 5 D2 also. Sorry Barberton, Perry, Avon, Nordonia, WW etc you are not trying hard enough either, and need better "family structure", lol.
 

EastYoungstown

Active member
Competitive balance.Did it satisfy the complainers? What happens going forward in D-1? Separating the two should never happen. I would like more publics to step up their game and compete.Is that even possible? Or is the talent disparity too great to over come the football factories?
I'd say if it was about success on the field it would be more successful and make more sense.

As it is I don't see anything that's really changed.

The MAC is still the MAC.... mostly

Akron dominance switched from one private to another (SVSM to Hoban)

Steubenville is still Steubenville

Kirtland is still Kirtland

D1 is still mostly the land of privates

You could point out Ursuline and Mooney sliding back, but that has to do more with staff changes than anything else. Not CBP
 

MentorGrad2002

Well-known member
Mentor is great, Triv is great, big enrollment, don't duck anyone etc. Fact remains the big 4 privates won 9 out of the last 10 championships because of the ability to consistently attract more talent, period.

And I know it is coming so YES Massillon recruits like hell but private schools won the last 5 D2 also. Sorry Barberton, Perry, Avon, Nordonia, WW etc you are not trying hard enough either, and need better "family structure", lol.
It's 8 of 10 but could be 9 of 10 if a big 5 school private wins this year

It's usually 7 or 8 out of 10 to the big privates. The rest of the division 1 which can be like 65 or more public schools get the other 2 or 3
 

sapientia et veritas

Well-known member
Jacoby, when he coached at Columbus DeSales was pretty successful. Since he left there, has he had equal success? Why do you suppose he hasn't had the same success? Do you think he just forgot how to coach? Hint, he isn't getting the same talent, that he got at DeSales. Or maybe all of the schools he has been at since, don't have weight rooms?
He's spoken publicly on the record about it. Hamilton Township. Hamilton. No work ethic. No player support or community support for the work required to create a successful program. Administrative interference. Lack of discipline.

He hasn't said a thing about his tenure at St Charles. He still works there, but not as the football coach. My guess is he dealt with helicopter mommies worried about junior getting into medical school, not some D-II football team. Makes sense. It's never been a priority there. Still, there is football talent in the building that could be developed. I think he figured out that he wasn't the right guy for it. The new guy seems to be doing OK. Probably just needed a happy medium. But yeah, football talent isn't attracted in any way toward St Charles like they'd be for other area alternatives even though they have the imaginary advantage of being able to "choose players" from the whole city and outlying areas. And an endowment fund that churns out more than a million per year for scholarships.

Here's the weight room they had for him at St Charles:


St Charles is actually a great counterexample of how CBP should have worked. They should have been demoted to D-III. They'd be competitive there. CBP puts them 8 slots from D-I which would be absurd. They already struggle with the D-III schedule they've got.
 

Kballer

Well-known member
What always gets missed in the argument on private bs public is how the feeder schools are actually set up. Most are tiny compared to the public middle schools and have a couple of classes per grade- max of 50 kids total though many have a lot less. Assuming each graduating class is evenly split between girls and boys, at most they have a couple of dozen boys that head to high school each year. Of those many will have legacy ties (parents, siblings) to a variety of high schools in the area so you could have kids from one feeder school going to a dozen different high schools.

The other part of this that many people don’t see is that in the large middle schools they can only have a couple of teams per sport so kids get left behind early by those that develop early. Whereas in the Catholic grade schools you will see kids who never leave the field due to numbers that wouldn’t have sniffed a field at the public school. Little jimmy the WR is given a chance to play despite being small for age but he also knows he has to compete against every other WR from all the feeder schools that also played every down once he hits high school. The public school team may only have a couple of kids coming up from the middle school team with significant minutes at each position- the private school has dozens from their small feeder schools.

And the last part of this is that knowing that little Jimmy has to compete against all those other WRs coming into his new school, his dad gets him extra training and Jimmy buys into it and works hard to be ready. The public school kid knows he only has to compete against a couple of other players with any game experience. He also may work hard but he doesn’t have as many kids nipping at his heels because most of them saw the writing on the wall and quit in middle school when they never played.

I’m just not sure many people know how small these feeder schools are and the dynamics of having to fill a class of a couple hundred boys when only a small handful come from each feeder school.
 
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Crossblock

New member
If you google Open Enrollment for Ohio High Schools it indicates that Coldwater is a statewide open enrollment school. The OHSAA football site has Coldwater with 147 boys and a CB of 7 for a total of 154 boys in 2018, in response to Coldwater not being open enrollment.

Privates have scholarships and vouchers. I don't want to argue about this but I have family and friends, having married into a large catholic family who has association with a central district school since its inception, who attend (s) (ed) a central district private school and play football and received scholarships. Not for playing a sport I'm sure, but its interesting how many of their football playing buddies had one too. As we socialize with the parents, a few white claws and the Moms start really to spill the beans.

The ODE website lists 430/561 (76.6%) schools are statewide open enrollment with another 39 (7%) schools being contiguous open enrollment.

Many of the large D1 school districts are not open enrollment but have enough apartment complexes for a family to transfer and establish residency rather easily.

There are 92 schools identified as no open enrollment, again, many being the large publics I just mentioned, and accounting for 16% of the schools.

The landscape of high school sports has certainly changed. There are very few districts that have only kids from their district without transfers, playing with only their own students in a true high school setting.

None of what I have posted is intended to be criticism, merely observation.
 

cardzfan1234

Well-known member
In the early days Triv did that, but he has stopped since he has developed his system and become successful, serving as a model for other large public schools
I prefer the current version of Triv that doesn't whine, and instead goes out and beats Eds/Ignatius. Blaming, whining, excuses, complaining, etc. doesn't help you get better. I'm sure his opinion hasn't really changed much, but who knows. Instead of focusing on what he can't control, he has rightfully focused on what he can control.

Since Triv has arrived, here are the teams that have beaten Mentor in the playoffs: Shaker, Strongsville (twice), WGH, St Eds (four times), Hilliard Davidson, St X, St Ignatius, Toledo Whitmer, Moeller, Hudson, Pickerington Central. A variety of public and private have ended his season.

24-8 in the playoffs against public schools
7-7 in the playoffs against private schools
 

sapientia et veritas

Well-known member
you could have kids from one feeder school going to a dozen different high schools.
And that's the problem. It doesn't work that way in Columbus. I know I've explained it before, but I'll repeat it for new people.

Feeder schools are parish schools and will take anyone registered in their parish - even if the student isn't in his "home parish" as the Catholic Church defines it. In the Columbus Diocese, high schools boundaries are set geographically independent of official parish boundaries though they try to align them as much as possible. The exception is St Charles, who will take anyone from anywhere in the diocese. If you live in Franklin County and in the designated Hartley territory, you go to Hartley. Legacy and other exceptions have to be granted by both the sending and receiving principals, and they're rare. When Alonzo Booth went school shopping (it was publicized in the newspaper), he was probably told that Hartley would not grant a waiver. And that's true. He was told he had to move into DeSales territory just like all the kids that Jerry Francis and friends told to get an apartment in Pickerington. I digress.

Anyhow, CBP would be different if the rest of the state functioned like Columbus. They would just do a +2 or whatever for the waiver only kids. But since the big (and medium) schools run by religious orders and often diocesan schools as well in SWO and NEO and maybe the rest of the state don't have any real boundaries except for maybe the diocese (and I'm skeptical of that), then the plan was designed to treat everyone equally. The publics weren't as upset by the wideness of the attendance boundaries so much as they were by the complete lack of them. And no one could have told the religious orders to change. They don't even listen to the Pope. And, especially since one of them in Akron was cheerfully rejecting academic and institutional integrity in pursuit of trophies at the time.
 
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