Public vs Private split - Will it be good for Ohio

CARDINAL said:
No one answers the question: What are you going to do with the majority of Private schools that annually DO NOT sniff the playoffs?
Click to expand...

Perhaps the answer, if we are going to address this issue is what Indiana is implementing. It is primarily being implemented to level the playing field with private schools dominating as well.....however it applies to public & private schools. It is a point system that requires you to move up and down based not only on enrollment....but assigning x amount of points to regional champ appearances....st. semi finals, and more for finals.

Problem is that it would probably cause some schools to move up.....get slammed...drop back down....win....move up....in a cycle.

It could however, create an interesting system...and could answer the question of how far up these tough small schools could play.

I am sure I do not want a split......I think I am in favor of some sort of multiplier or points system. Like it or not......there are private schools that have a significant competitive advantage....others however do not.

Just a thought.
 
SWBL06 said:
Perhaps the answer, if we are going to address this issue is what Indiana is implementing. It is primarily being implemented to level the playing field with private schools dominating as well.....however it applies to public & private schools. It is a point system that requires you to move up and down based not only on enrollment....but assigning x amount of points to regional champ appearances....st. semi finals, and more for finals.

Problem is that it would probably cause some schools to move up.....get slammed...drop back down....win....move up....in a cycle.

It could however, create an interesting system...and could answer the question of how far up these tough small schools could play.

I am sure I do not want a split......I think I am in favor of some sort of multiplier or points system. Like it or not......there are private schools that have a significant competitive advantage....others however do not.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

I always liked the European soccer systems... the best few teams bump up to
the next higher level... the worst few teams drop down to the next lower level. This allows the struggling teams to re-group and get better with the promise of moving back up. Also allows the teams that are crushing to move up and face the big boys.
 
Are you a St Edward guy ?.....

CL1970 said:
that St. Edward is the 58th largest according to OHSAA, there are plenty of public schools with many more boys. Most of the teams that they play are much bigger then they are, such as Ignatius, Xavier, Mentor, etc.
Click to expand...

.....if you are, do you realize that you are beginning to saw the branch your ladder is leaning on ? ;-p
 
allsportsman said:
And no one goes there mainly to wrestle or play football. It is just a random bunch of boys that get coached up.:Ohno:
Click to expand...

No where is the problem more clearly illustrated than Ohio HS wrestling. 1979 AAA Champs Nordonia to 2010 D1 Champs Wadsworth. I think every big school title in between was won by a private school.

Pretty good SEHS basketball team, too. How many of those boys ever said a hail Mary or attended a Mass before they began school there ? Half ?
 
Last edited:
SWBL06 said:
Perhaps the answer, if we are going to address this issue is what Indiana is implementing. It is primarily being implemented to level the playing field with private schools dominating as well.....however it applies to public & private schools. It is a point system that requires you to move up and down based not only on enrollment....but assigning x amount of points to regional champ appearances....st. semi finals, and more for finals.

Problem is that it would probably cause some schools to move up.....get slammed...drop back down....win....move up....in a cycle.

It could however, create an interesting system...and could answer the question of how far up these tough small schools could play.

I am sure I do not want a split......I think I am in favor of some sort of multiplier or points system. Like it or not......there are private schools that have a significant competitive advantage....others however do not.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

The NFL achieves parity (with the exception of our Browns) with a draft ranking system and a salary cap. We have no draft, and some of the private school students are free agents limited only by the amount of commute time they are willing to endure. Some private schools bring in "free agents" like the Yankees, some like the Indians. A full private/public split would be as big a mistake as continuing as we are.

I wish more of those representing the dominant schools had a more sincere approach to the topic. This debate is almost like the partisan politics of the last few election cycles. We probably need to both raise taxes AND cut programs, yet I doubt that any politician touting BOTH won an election !

We can't reach a good compromise until we start looking at WHAT is right and not WHO is right, right ?

Will someone lock EagleFan, BBJones, IgnatianAMDG, and raising4daughters in a room with a bucket of chicken and a case of beer, please........? no fighting over the drumsticks.....
 
BBJones said:
Good groups of kids going through. St. Henry has four titles, right? Two were back-to-back, the other two during a three-year span. That's not exactly 11 over 25 years. Marion Pleasant had back-to-back titles among theirs, too. If Norwayne wins this year, it's because basically the same kids will have won twice.

When a team wins 7 in an 8-year span, it's far beyond a simple anomaly.
Click to expand...

St. Henry: 90, 92, 93, 94, 04, & 06 (6 over 17 years)
Versailles: 90, 93, 94, 95, 98, 03 (6 over 14 years)
Marion Local: 00, 01, 06, 07, 11 (5 over 12 years)


BBJones said:
Is this really that hard?
Click to expand...

No, I guess when you close your mind to other explanations then I guess it's not that hard. However, if you look at the situation honestly it can be rather difficult to come up with pat explanations like 'they have an advantage'.
 
cabezadecaballo said:
The NFL achieves parity (with the exception of our Browns) with a draft ranking system and a salary cap. We have no draft, and some of the private school students are free agents limited only by the amount of commute time they are willing to endure. Some private schools bring in "free agents" like the Yankees, some like the Indians. A full private/public split would be as big a mistake as continuing as we are.

I wish more of those representing the dominant schools had a more sincere approach to the topic. This debate is almost like the partisan politics of the last few election cycles. We probably need to both raise taxes AND cut programs, yet I doubt that any politician touting BOTH won an election !

We can't reach a good compromise until we start looking at WHAT is right and not WHO is right, right ?

Will someone lock EagleFan, BBJones, IgnatianAMDG, and raising4daughters in a room with a bucket of chicken and a case of beer, please........? no fighting over the drumsticks.....
Click to expand...

You lost me at "NFL." High school football isn't supposed to have parity. It has never had parity. It's always been a beautiful free-for-all of 700+ high schools across the state battling to prove who can put the best team on the field. Not the best team at a given level of enrollment, socioeconomic status, geographical reach, or whatever bar you want to use. The best team, period.
 
BBJones said:
Pretty sure it's only a requirement that one have either a wad of cash or a very good 40 time to gain entrance to a Catholic school. Being Catholic has nothing to do with it. While there, students must participate in/endure religious activities, but they certainly don't have to practice the religion. Otherwise, with the number of Catholics either lapsing or leaving altogether (especially in the wake of the disgusting pedophilia scandal that puts Penn State's to shame), there wouldn't be enough kids to fill those schools for long. On that note, many, if not most are shrinking as it is.
Click to expand...

Hello bigot :rolleyes: You may want to check out the rate of sexual abuse in public schools. It dwarfs the Catholic Church scandal which involved a tiny percentage of priest over a 60 year period. We have several reported incidents in public schools here in the greater Canton area in just the last several months.

Most public schools are losing enrollment also genius. Check the demographic changes in the last 10 years. Less kids are being born. Why do you think the divisional cutoffs keep going down. Because there are less kids (students) at both public and private schools.

Thanks for showing us all who you really are with your ad hominem attack. Try and stay on topic and keep your bigotry to yourself.
 
Last edited:
BBJones said:
Pretty sure it's only a requirement that one have either a wad of cash or a very good 40 time to gain entrance to a Catholic school. Being Catholic has nothing to do with it. While there, students must participate in/endure religious activities, but they certainly don't have to practice the religion. Otherwise, with the number of Catholics either lapsing or leaving altogether (especially in the wake of the disgusting pedophilia scandal that puts Penn State's to shame), there wouldn't be enough kids to fill those schools for long. On that note, many, if not most are shrinking as it is.
Click to expand...

I had neither. Next?
 
cabezadecaballo said:
The NFL achieves parity (with the exception of our Browns) with a draft ranking system and a salary cap. We have no draft, and some of the private school students are free agents limited only by the amount of commute time they are willing to endure. Some private schools bring in "free agents" like the Yankees, some like the Indians. A full private/public split would be as big a mistake as continuing as we are.

I wish more of those representing the dominant schools had a more sincere approach to the topic. This debate is almost like the partisan politics of the last few election cycles. We probably need to both raise taxes AND cut programs, yet I doubt that any politician touting BOTH won an election !

We can't reach a good compromise until we start looking at WHAT is right and not WHO is right, right ?

Will someone lock EagleFan, BBJones, IgnatianAMDG, and raising4daughters in a room with a bucket of chicken and a case of beer, please........? no fighting over the drumsticks.....
Click to expand...

You posted this in another thread. Again, what have I said that was particularly inflammatory?
 
Summa said:
Hello bigot :rolleyes: You may want to check out the rate of sexual abuse in public schools. It dwarfs the Catholic Church scandal which involved a tiny percentage of priest over a 60 year period. We have several reported incidents in public schools here in the greater Canton area in just the last several months.

Most public schools are losing enrollment also genius. Check the demographic changes in the last 10 years. Less kids are being born. Why do you think the divisional cutoffs keep going down. Because there are less kids (students) at both public and private schools.

Try and stay on topic and keep your bigotry to yourself.
Click to expand...

And more people are moving out of state.
 
BBJones said:
Pretty sure it's only a requirement that one have either a wad of cash or a very good 40 time to gain entrance to a Catholic school. Being Catholic has nothing to do with it. While there, students must participate in/endure religious activities, but they certainly don't have to practice the religion. Otherwise, with the number of Catholics either lapsing or leaving altogether (especially in the wake of the disgusting pedophilia scandal that puts Penn State's to shame), there wouldn't be enough kids to fill those schools for long. On that note, many, if not most are shrinking as it is.
Click to expand...

Aside from fewer students in the pool the cost of a Catholic education is the biggest factor in the current economy. I'd say about 80% of the kids at our school are getting financial aid based on need. It still takes a big sacrifice for many families. Nice little dig however...:rolleyes:
 
IgnatianAMDG said:
You posted this in another thread. Again, what have I said that was particularly inflammatory?
Click to expand...

Absolutely nothing; to the contrary, you have struck me as a more open-minded individual representing the mega-private side. The whole "locked in a room" thing was a facetious request for a quick and amicable solution, not a quarantine, a sequestered jury. You see I edited the redundant post ? .........I'm starting to believe the alternate is in order....sheeesh......If you viewed "locked in a room", as a punishment, I'm beginning to understand ..... my apologies
 
Last edited:
clevfan said:
You lost me at "NFL." High school football isn't supposed to have parity. It has never had parity. It's always been a beautiful free-for-all of 700+ high schools across the state battling to prove who can put the best team on the field. Not the best team at a given level of enrollment, socioeconomic status, geographical reach, or whatever bar you want to use. The best team, period.
Click to expand...

I never meant to say that true parity should be the goal in restructuring of the HS sports system. I do think we should be able to see it on the horizon; not a destination but a landmark we could navigate by. Everyone seems to be beating each other over the head with cherry-picked statistics and partial facts. Merely trying to provide a look from another angle.

We do have multiple divisions already; some of us say D1 is too broad, that's all. I am certain there was a year in which the D2 champ could have defeated the D1, but we will never know which ones. So much for the free-for-all.
 
cabezadecaballo said:
Absolutely nothing; to the contrary, you have struck me as a more open-minded individual representing the mega-private side. The whole "locked in a room" thing was a facetious request for a quick and amicable solution, not a quarantine, a sequestered jury. You see I edited the redundant post ? .........I'm starting to believe the alternate is in order....sheeesh......If you viewed "locked in a room", as a punishment, I'm beginning to understand ..... my apologies
Click to expand...

Cabezadecaballo,

My apologies. I took it the wrong way. That is my bad.

I hope that one day everyone can come to some kind of solution that, not only will benefit all of us football fanatics, but more importantly the kids on the field and in the schools. While we may have the best system of determining state champions in the entire country, that does not mean that it is perfect or that it could not be improved upon.
 
CL1970 said:
that St. Edward is the 58th largest according to OHSAA, there are plenty of public schools with many more boys. Most of the teams that they play are much bigger then they are, such as Ignatius, Xavier, Mentor, etc.
Click to expand...

Ya and Eds also pulls kids from a much wider range than a public school. Kind of evens things out with the other d-1 schools with bigger enrollment schools like Mentor.
 
CARDINAL said:
Another asinine post by you

First of all, the majority of schools whining about Parochial School advantages will never smell a State Championship

secondly, I personally have stated many times that I wouldn't be against a multiplier for my school, if someone would figure out how to be fair to the less successful programs

You obviously don't have the answer

I honestly don't know why you wasted your time with that stupid post
Click to expand...

Geez someone is a little irritated. Although that's the norm for you. 90% of your posts are attacks rather than stating anything of substance. Maybe you should change your name to FLY 2.0.

IMO there was nothing wrong with the concept of adding a success factor to the multiplier, similar to what was proposed, to address exactly what you are talking about. I personally thought the multiplier they proposed was a little weak and could've been weighted more for what I would consider the 2 biggest advantages:1)private school, 2)open enrollment.

But I'm sure you would/did whine about that too.
 
Last edited:
No advantage, none at all. It boils down to the fact that the private families have skin in the game whereas the public families have little to none. Therefore the "risk" of failure is much greater at a private school. Or, if you will, there is little to no risk at the public school. Few public schools exhibit the pride that Colerain does down in SW Ohio. THAT is what is necessary to sustain a competitive program.
 
crazyotto said:
No advantage, none at all. It boils down to the fact that the private families have skin in the game whereas the public families have little to none. Therefore the "risk" of failure is much greater at a private school. Or, if you will, there is little to no risk at the public school. Few public schools exhibit the pride that Colerain does down in SW Ohio. THAT is what is necessary to sustain a competitive program.
Click to expand...

This.
 
It gets a little tiresome reading that some people believe private, especially Catholic schools, have an advantage in attracting students. Lets take a look at the public and private schools:

PUBLIC: free to attend. Less strict dress code and no uniforms. more than likely the school has the most up-to-date classroom tools. the whole community backs the local high school teams. Class expectations are easier to achieve for the average student.

PRIVATE: Average $6,500/yr. strict dress code - including uniforms, more than likely most items in the school are the same exact items their parents used when they went to school there. Daily religion classes all 4 years. Daily prayer before every other class. community does not always back the teams, and in fact some schools have their local communities rooting against them. extremely high expectations in class work.

So yeah, I can see the advantage..... The TRUE advantage is that the students learn and live in an environment that demands success - so it naturally occurs on the field, court, and track as well. I am NOT saying that there aren't public schools that do the same thing - it's just that in a private school a large percentage of the students buy into the program of hard work and dedication - and in public schools it's mostly only the students that ARE involved in sports and extra curricular activities that have that. Unfortunately they are surrounded the rest of the year in the off -season by many who have no motivation, respect, or goals. Instead of wishing the privates didn't have such an "advantage" why not try to change your public school to be the school that has the "advantage" -the true advantage.

I know I'm going to get ripped for this but it's the truth, as I see it.
 
louisvilleluvssta said:
It gets a little tiresome reading that some people believe private, especially Catholic schools, have an advantage in attracting students. Lets take a look at the public and private schools:

PUBLIC: free to attend. Less strict dress code and no uniforms. more than likely the school has the most up-to-date classroom tools. the whole community backs the local high school teams. Class expectations are easier to achieve for the average student.

PRIVATE: Average $6,500/yr. strict dress code - including uniforms, more than likely most items in the school are the same exact items their parents used when they went to school there. Daily religion classes all 4 years. Daily prayer before every other class. community does not always back the teams, and in fact some schools have their local communities rooting against them. extremely high expectations in class work.

So yeah, I can see the advantage..... The TRUE advantage is that the students learn and live in an environment that demands success - so it naturally occurs on the field, court, and track as well. I am NOT saying that there aren't public schools that do the same thing - it's just that in a private school a large percentage of the students buy into the program of hard work and dedication - and in public schools it's mostly only the students that ARE involved in sports and extra curricular activities that have that. Unfortunately they are surrounded the rest of the year in the off -season by many who have no motivation, respect, or goals. Instead of wishing the privates didn't have such an "advantage" why not try to change your public school to be the school that has the "advantage" -the true advantage.

I know I'm going to get ripped for this but it's the truth, as I see it.
Click to expand...

:clap:
Tru dat.
 
louisvilleluvssta said:
It gets a little tiresome reading that some people believe private, especially Catholic schools, have an advantage in attracting students. Lets take a look at the public and private schools:

PUBLIC: free to attend. Less strict dress code and no uniforms. more than likely the school has the most up-to-date classroom tools. the whole community backs the local high school teams. Class expectations are easier to achieve for the average student.

PRIVATE: Average $6,500/yr. strict dress code - including uniforms, more than likely most items in the school are the same exact items their parents used when they went to school there. Daily religion classes all 4 years. Daily prayer before every other class. community does not always back the teams, and in fact some schools have their local communities rooting against them. extremely high expectations in class work.

So yeah, I can see the advantage..... The TRUE advantage is that the students learn and live in an environment that demands success - so it naturally occurs on the field, court, and track as well. I am NOT saying that there aren't public schools that do the same thing - it's just that in a private school a large percentage of the students buy into the program of hard work and dedication - and in public schools it's mostly only the students that ARE involved in sports and extra curricular activities that have that. Unfortunately they are surrounded the rest of the year in the off -season by many who have no motivation, respect, or goals. Instead of wishing the privates didn't have such an "advantage" why not try to change your public school to be the school that has the "advantage" -the true advantage.

I know I'm going to get ripped for this but it's the truth, as I see it.
Click to expand...

So very well said!!!!
 
louisvilleluvssta said:
It gets a little tiresome reading that some people believe private, especially Catholic schools, have an advantage in attracting students. Lets take a look at the public and private schools:

PUBLIC: free to attend. Less strict dress code and no uniforms. more than likely the school has the most up-to-date classroom tools. the whole community backs the local high school teams. Class expectations are easier to achieve for the average student.

PRIVATE: Average $6,500/yr. strict dress code - including uniforms, more than likely most items in the school are the same exact items their parents used when they went to school there. Daily religion classes all 4 years. Daily prayer before every other class. community does not always back the teams, and in fact some schools have their local communities rooting against them. extremely high expectations in class work.

So yeah, I can see the advantage..... The TRUE advantage is that the students learn and live in an environment that demands success - so it naturally occurs on the field, court, and track as well. I am NOT saying that there aren't public schools that do the same thing - it's just that in a private school a large percentage of the students buy into the program of hard work and dedication - and in public schools it's mostly only the students that ARE involved in sports and extra curricular activities that have that. Unfortunately they are surrounded the rest of the year in the off -season by many who have no motivation, respect, or goals. Instead of wishing the privates didn't have such an "advantage" why not try to change your public school to be the school that has the "advantage" -the true advantage.

I know I'm going to get ripped for this but it's the truth, as I see it.
Click to expand...

I think there is a true advantage but it's more the numbers you can draw from as I see it. Rual area schools just do not have those kinda numbers to draw from. If you draw from a pool of say 50,000 or more and you are playing a team that draws from around 5,000 to me that is a true advantage. The odds of getting 2, 3, or 4 kids that are better than the average small school football player is just greater. Yes after you have those kids they and the team have too buy into the program of hard work and dedication.
 
SWBL06 said:
Perhaps the answer, if we are going to address this issue is what Indiana is implementing.
Click to expand...

No offense. but any idea that starts with this sentence can't be a good one

We do not need to model Ohio High School Football after Indiana

We have the best, if not near the best overall High School Football in the country

People that think it needs thrown out and reinvented are just idiots
 
Two things.

First, to be a champion one needs to have the heart of a champion. Whining about another team's advantages is hardly demonstrating a competitive spirit. Coach Triv and his Cards and Coach Morgan and his Comets certainly have that spirit. Do you think Solon High would've wanted a split championship? Nope.

Second. The big equalizer isn't numbers, or geographic area....its coaching. Prior to Coach Kyle becoming head coach, Ignatius could not get a sniff of the playoffs. They've had the same geographic footprint since I attended there 40 years ago. One of my classmates drove in from Painesville every day for four years...and he didn't play any sport. Its no accident that Jeff Rotsky ALWAYS ALWAYS has a competitive team (and one that should've been in the playoffs this year) regardles if he is at a Catholic School like Chanel, a smaller D II with no tradition, or a large D I with a good academic/athletic reputation.

Why does Avon Lake make the playoffs every year and win more post season games than its neighbor Brookside wins REGULAR season? And don't whine about demographics there, because Clearview is an annual participant in the post season.

Its coaching that starts by building a tradition of competitive football. If a school doesn't have one, go find the next Coach Kyle, or Coach Duglosz, or Coach Rotsky and get started. Whining will get you no closer to the playoffs.
 
Ignats75 said:
Two things.

First, to be a champion one needs to have the heart of a champion. Whining about another team's advantages is hardly demonstrating a competitive spirit. Coach Triv and his Cards and Coach Morgan and his Comets certainly have that spirit. Do you think Solon High would've wanted a split championship? Nope.

Second. The big equalizer isn't numbers, or geographic area....its coaching. Prior to Coach Kyle becoming head coach, Ignatius could not get a sniff of the playoffs. They've had the same geographic footprint since I attended there 40 years ago. One of my classmates drove in from Painesville every day for four years...and he didn't play any sport. Its no accident that Jeff Rotsky ALWAYS ALWAYS has a competitive team (and one that should've been in the playoffs this year) regardles if he is at a Catholic School like Chanel, a smaller D II with no tradition, or a large D I with a good academic/athletic reputation.

Why does Avon Lake make the playoffs every year and win more post season games than its neighbor Brookside wins REGULAR season? And don't whine about demographics there, because Clearview is an annual participant in the post season.

Its coaching that starts by building a tradition of competitive football. If a school doesn't have one, go find the next Coach Kyle, or Coach Duglosz, or Coach Rotsky and get started. Whining will get you no closer to the playoffs.
Click to expand...

Agree one million percent, but sadly the whining IS getting them closer to a championship, work ethic and pride are being replaced with apathy and disdain.
 
zeeman said:
Agree one million percent, but sadly the whining IS getting them closer to a championship, work ethic and pride are being replaced with apathy and disdain.
Click to expand...

Well said, zeeman! While I understand the competitive disadvantage that some of the public schools have been complaining about, I'd hate to see a split. It would have deprived me of two of the most entertaining football games I have ever seen. Very inspiring performances by the young men from Mentor, Iggy's and St. Ed's that should be considered a benchmark for all teams to emulate.
 
Ignats75 said:
First, to be a champion one needs to have the heart of a champion.
Click to expand...

Natural ability, size, and speed mean nothing next to the heart of a champion (whatever that means).:shrug:

When a team averages 6'2" 260 across the oline and you are 195 that heart stuff doesn't hold water.
 
SteelValley said:
IMO there was nothing wrong with the concept of adding a success factor to the multiplier, similar to what was proposed, to address exactly what you are talking about. I personally thought the multiplier they proposed was a little weak and could've been weighted more for what I would consider the 2 biggest advantages:1)private school, 2)open enrollment.

But I'm sure you would/did whine about that too.
Click to expand...


As usual, you're wrong again
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top