Plea to tournament directors...

thavoice

Well-known member
I'd like to use this thread a ways to improve the experience in these tournaments.

My contribution to this thread is:

Bring back pre game infield/outfield.

Please.

I've watched idly by the last couple of years and there is time for teams to do a pre game info/of.

I think it will eventually improve the overall product. To me, the game starts at the pregame and it pains me to see those lame ground balls in fouod territory and a few flyballs.


What say you?
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I would say there is too much money to be made and scheduling fields in the shortest time possible is the ultimate goal.

If we want to improve the product, going back to more local teams playing full games within a league that owns the fields is very important.
I agree, but I've been paying close attention and although they have quick turn around there is time for INF.
 

bucksman

Moderator
Keeping teams off the field for a pregame I/O is also about field preservation, at least that's a reason that has been given to me from TD's.

Not sure if all the tournaments are like this, but the ones I've worked over recent years have been two-hour time limit games (no new innings) with either a 2:15 or 2:30 time window between games. If that's the prevailing pattern, doing I/O (or just infield) between games would make me cringe as an umpire. It's hard enough getting games started on time, especially when the time window is 2:15.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Keeping teams off the field for a pregame I/O is also about field preservation, at least that's a reason that has been given to me from TD's.

Not sure if all the tournaments are like this, but the ones I've worked over recent years have been two-hour time limit games (no new innings) with either a 2:15 or 2:30 time window between games. If that's the prevailing pattern, doing I/O (or just infield) between games would make me cringe as an umpire. It's hard enough getting games started on time, especially when the time window is 2:15.
Field preservation, BS.
As for time...both teams are taking their lol ground balls and flies that easielu could be substituted by an on field INF
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
I agree about taking infield and especially outfield somewhere before the game. Saw some routine ball missed this weekend. I know it is really early and the boys are knocking the rust off but goodness....
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I agree about taking infield and especially outfield somewhere before the game. Saw some routine ball missed this weekend. I know it is really early and the boys are knocking the rust off but goodness....
I started to notice last year that the games tend to be much sloppier the first inning or two and I contribute it to no inf outfield.
 

SOD

Member
It all depends on the tournament. Sometimes you may only get 10 minutes between games if the umpires are doing both games and they aren't switching spots. You can almost always get some outfield in. Many tournaments are very specific on infield. I think it has more to do with time than anything. Even when they have turf fields or infields....they don't allow infield.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
I’ve worked nothing but tournaments the last few summers, and here is my take:

On dirt fields (whether it’s whole IF or just where fielders play) the preservation is actually legit, in that the dirt becomes rougher than already is, I was at woodridge this wknd and they dragged the IF between games, to allow IF would negate that very quickly.

keep in mind that in one teams IF warmup, they have a games worth of balls being hit and fielded in five minutes.

On turf fields, the notion of preserving is lessened except that turf is insanely expensive, so site directors usually want to maximize games on the field. While one games IF is not going to destroy the turf, it does have a shelf life of wear and tear, which comes with usage.

In a perfect world, there would be a second field nearby (JV/Freshman field) where they could take IF and then come play on the game field
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I’ve worked nothing but tournaments the last few summers, and here is my take:

On dirt fields (whether it’s whole IF or just where fielders play) the preservation is actually legit, in that the dirt becomes rougher than already is, I was at woodridge this wknd and they dragged the IF between games, to allow IF would negate that very quickly.

keep in mind that in one teams IF warmup, they have a games worth of balls being hit and fielded in five minutes.

On turf fields, the notion of preserving is lessened except that turf is insanely expensive, so site directors usually want to maximize games on the field. While one games IF is not going to destroy the turf, it does have a shelf life of wear and tear, which comes with usage.

In a perfect world, there would be a second field nearby (JV/Freshman field) where they could take IF and then come play on the game field
HS teams routinely take INF/OF after the field is drug between, or before games.


Lame excuses.

All.

I have paid close attention the last two years and a vast majority of time there is ample time to do it. I say if the time allows it, which I have noticed it does often times, then do it.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
So everyone (“all”) needs to agree with you or we are all wrong and lame. So why not just make the thread and say “agree or stay away”?

A HS team plays one game a day, tournaments play 4-6 a day every day on the field, so your reasoning is the lame one IMO.

if I owned a field and the games bring in the money, practice brings in nothing, I’m looking out for my investment too, the fact that they can’t Field a routine grounder in the first two innings is not on me if I’m site director
 

WingTFan

New member
I would say there is too much money to be made and scheduling fields in the shortest time possible is the ultimate goal.

If we want to improve the product, going back to more local teams playing full games within a league that owns the fields is very important.
Yes. Thank you
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Middle of our second tournament now and there is ample time for INF and OF.

It is a staple of a baseball game and should be put into play.

Was a breath of fresh air to see the acme and Jr ACME games today and doing the INF OF before each game. Natural suface and does not scuff up the field enough after they redid it between games to use that as a valid excuse.

The boy even commented how he liked and with they would do it at these tournys.....oh no, the precious field. Charge hundreds and hundreds of dollars to enter the tourny, charge people to attend the games, but let the teams do a proper INF before the game? Nah. Our precious investment.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
Is it even the TD? Or is it the site supervisors/ADs?

highly doubt a TD can tell an athletic director what they can and can’t do with their fields
 

GCPRO

Well-known member
Tourney Directors make the call in the tournaments where we have been a host. Pastime, Flames and Ohio Valley made those decisions. We allowed use of our hitting tunnels if teams wished to use them.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Is it even the TD? Or is it the site supervisors/ADs?

highly doubt a TD can tell an athletic director what they can and can’t do with their fields
It's okay to have the team take BB and Fly balls at 1st and 3rd, and left and right, for the full team but no INF...

Precious field preservation......
Want to charge the money then maybe turn on the scoreboards? Hace foul poles and have foul lines in the OF grass so the umpire has some sort of clue on close plays.

But it's all about the Benjamin's.......
 

thavoice

Well-known member
If we can have 8 games in two days, on the same field, on a natural surface, with full INF OF before each game, and keep the field in top shape, and the only fees to the teams are the cost of 1 umpire and 3-5 dollars entry, no parking fee, no mandatory hotel stay, no time limit, stop games during heavy rains, then these tournys cane have afford teams to do INF/OF.


But I digress....
 

Bugsy8875

Member
It's okay to have the team take BB and Fly balls at 1st and 3rd, and left and right, for the full team but no INF...

Precious field preservation......
Want to charge the money then maybe turn on the scoreboards? Hace foul poles and have foul lines in the OF grass so the umpire has some sort of clue on close plays.

But it's all about the Benjamin's.......
Worked some games at a local field that used to be really nice. I cringed when I walked onto it this year. Felt bad for the players. All it needed to be decent for the day was some water and hand raked between games. It turned into a dust bowl at the plate and on the mound. Later in the day the pitchers foot on the rubber was about 3-4 inches deep in a hole and the landing area for the front foot was about the same. Some pitchers were fighting with it the whole game.

I would be upset if I had a team that paid good money to play in this tourney and this is what I get.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
@thavoice....

Why don't you run a tournament then? Not being snarky, being serious. Communicate and arrange some fields, get some umpires, let teams know why your event will be different, and run it the way you want.

If as the TD, you have final say over everything, then do what you want, allow what you want, charge whatever you want, and maybe you will make a bunch of money to put on a better tournament.

To Bugsy's comment....that is terrible and I would be complaining too. As an aside, it does speak to the fact that usage DOES in fact cause wear and tear on the field, but I digress too. Each field is supposed to have a site supervisor who is responsible for preparing the field before each game.

I would surely be complaining about that
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
@thavoice....serious question. I was umpiring a tournament at a local HS, and the site girl between games redrew the lines (boxes, foul), raked the plate and mound area, took about 10 mins. She also said she could drag the field between games but it takes 20 mins (30 mins total to drag and do everything else)

Most tourneys have 15 mins between games, and she needed 10 mins minimum to work on the field/infield. When would there be time to take INF? Have 30 minutes between games? 45?

10am - Noon: Game 1
12:45 - 2:45: Game 2
3:30 - 5:30 Game 3
6:15 - 8:15 Game 4

Might be tougher to get umpires...IF every game lasts only 2 hours (many run closer to 2:15 as the last inning starts just before the 2 hour mark), you are looking at a 10.25 hour day for 4 games pay, where with 15 mins between games, its 8.25 hours.

So asking every umpire and site supervisors to work an extra 2 hours for the same pay...I don't know what you do for a living, but I surmise if your boss asked you to stay 2 extra hours for nothing, you wouldn't be too happy
 

thavoice

Well-known member
@thavoice....serious question. I was umpiring a tournament at a local HS, and the site girl between games redrew the lines (boxes, foul), raked the plate and mound area, took about 10 mins. She also said she could drag the field between games but it takes 20 mins (30 mins total to drag and do everything else)

Most tourneys have 15 mins between games, and she needed 10 mins minimum to work on the field/infield. When would there be time to take INF? Have 30 minutes between games? 45?

10am - Noon: Game 1
12:45 - 2:45: Game 2
3:30 - 5:30 Game 3
6:15 - 8:15 Game 4

Might be tougher to get umpires...IF every game lasts only 2 hours (many run closer to 2:15 as the last inning starts just before the 2 hour mark), you are looking at a 10.25 hour day for 4 games pay, where with 15 mins between games, its 8.25 hours.

So asking every umpire and site supervisors to work an extra 2 hours for the same pay...I don't know what you do for a living, but I surmise if your boss asked you to stay 2 extra hours for nothing, you wouldn't be too happy
I've assisted in running tournaments locally when I was coaching.
As for the tournys ty boy has been involved in is what I am talking about and always on turf with little to no between game maintenance.

We all know the answers......money. they want to cram as many teams and games in as possible.
Was a an event Saturday afternoon. While both teams were warming up on the OF between games the grounds crew drug the field relined it, etc. Didn't need water as it rained alot on the AM but when needed water is put down


When they value money over all else and force all the non traditional baseball aspects is when I get fired up!
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
I've assisted in running tournaments locally when I was coaching.
As for the tournys ty boy has been involved in is what I am talking about and always on turf with little to no between game maintenance.

We all know the answers......money. they want to cram as many teams and games in as possible.
Was a an event Saturday afternoon. While both teams were warming up on the OF between games the grounds crew drug the field relined it, etc. Didn't need water as it rained alot on the AM but when needed water is put down


When they value money over all else and force all the non traditional baseball aspects is when I get fired up!
Well I completely agree that it would be ideal to be on turf fields, though I have umpired on some turf fields that have wear/tear too...one field the catchers box and umpire box was sunken down, literally tripped the first time I tried to clear the catcher to get in position to watch for pulled foot and swipe tag. But I agree, a majority of the turf fields (like Jackson HS in Massillon) require little to no work between games. And for what it is worth, the field supervisor at Jackson HS runs the scoreboard during games and plays music between innings. I have no affiliation to Jackson other than having umpired tournaments there, so they do some of the "extra" stuff that makes the experience more enjoyable.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Worked some games at a local field that used to be really nice. I cringed when I walked onto it this year. Felt bad for the players. All it needed to be decent for the day was some water and hand raked between games. It turned into a dust bowl at the plate and on the mound. Later in the day the pitchers foot on the rubber was about 3-4 inches deep in a hole and the landing area for the front foot was about the same. Some pitchers were fighting with it the whole game.

I would be upset if I had a team that paid good money to play in this tourney and this is what I get.
All it takes is for a few people to want to do some work.
Some places do, some don't lick town cancelled their tourny this weekend, so a number of teams wnet down the road 10 Miles and played where they have community support and help get diamonds ready.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
All ball is travel today and all tournaments are simply money makers. Herd as many teams in and out as fast as you can. Time restrictions on games, no consideration to a teams physical travel, just get the money and get em in and out.

Back before things became so crazy tournaments would be events. You'd have skills competitions and HR derbies.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
All ball is travel today and all tournaments are simply money makers. Herd as many teams in and out as fast as you can. Time restrictions on games, no consideration to a teams physical travel, just get the money and get em in and out.

Back before things became so crazy tournaments would be events. You'd have skills competitions and HR derbies.
I cannot believe the rain they allow them to play through in the sake of 'staying on time'......
 

Red14

Well-known member
I'd like to use this thread a ways to improve the experience in these tournaments.

My contribution to this thread is:

Bring back pre game infield/outfield.

Please.

I've watched idly by the last couple of years and there is time for teams to do a pre game info/of.

I think it will eventually improve the overall product. To me, the game starts at the pregame and it pains me to see those lame ground balls in fouod territory and a few flyballs.


What say you?
There is no infield / outfiled pregame practice anymore?
 

thavoice

Well-known member
There is no infield / outfiled pregame practice anymore?
You serious?
Not for any of the youth tournaments I have attended the last 4-5 years.

"Not enough time"
"Field preservation"
Most will take flyballs, and hit ground balls in foul territory but getting on the field? Nah baby nah.

Etc...etc...etc....
 

Red14

Well-known member
Oh, ok, I thought you were talking about high school games. Yes, this has been a trend over the last several years.

It's unfortunate, the game suffers. Some kids may get one, two ground balls at them per game, and if there is no infield, skills will erode. I think it's part of our hurry up society, we limit games to 90 minutes or 2 hours, we rush from place to place. In actuality, these youth tournaments should be used for player development and sadly, many don't develop.
 

GCPRO

Well-known member
I cannot remember how old my son was at the time but his team played in a tourney where they actually put the time of the game on the scoreboard rather than innings. If i remember correctly the time limit was 1:45 and that time was put on the scoreboard and counted down. Needless to say there was some crazy stuff going on to get those W's as time dwindled down.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I cannot remember how old my son was at the time but his team played in a tourney where they actually put the time of the game on the scoreboard rather than innings. If i remember correctly the time limit was 1:45 and that time was put on the scoreboard and counted down. Needless to say there was some crazy stuff going on to get those W's as time dwindled down.
I would hate that.
For whatever reason, when I am at a MilB game and they have that pitch clock I always find msyelf looking at it. Just distracting.

At least they turned the scoreboard on in your instance, most places ive been do dont even bother with the scoreboard.

This is how ingrained no INF/OF is in todays youth culture.

Went to a game the other night. Week night single game. No time limit. It is considered one of the team's "home" field.
They took ground balls at third (and first for the other team) and flyballs in the corner for quite awhile.

Still would not do a INF/OF. Just dont understand it.
 
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