OHSAA High School Early Season Cross Country Invitational - August 15

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Give us all a break. Perfection in our response isn't the goal, or even possible. You seem so miserable. Is that even fun?
Perfection? We aren't even close. This is a joke. We are on a travel ban from the rest of the world... I'm disgusted that we are in this position. We saw it coming. We can see what other countries have done and we are unable to do the simplest of things. I'm fine. I just expect more. This is acceptable to you?
 

ENA2

Member
I don’t know if they can have the preseason meet or not. But I did go to the site and I checked our course out and at both places you could have 10’ wide boxes with 6-8’ spacing between those boxes with alleys with those proportions for 100 meters or more, then funneling down to a 10-12’ path around the course. The finish could be a huge corral where runners could cross the chip timer and social distance straight to the team camp area....which would also need to be large. At our place the finish area would be the entire baseball complex and the team camp would be the entire softball area.... no parent or fans at either. Note. Our course only has 10 schools or about 100 runners in a race and obetz looks like the start could be about twice the length.... if the start is out near the incline.
 
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ENA2

Member
Also I ran in a mask today. Was not bad and a lot better than the “altitude mask” that I have than injured kids swim or bike with. I ran slow, but no slower ran usual.
 
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JAVMAN83

Well-known member
You know, I was watching XC skiing from past Olympics this morning. There are very good other examples of other sports that have staggered starts. I think this should be considered as a work around for XC starting teams every 30 seconds. XC skiing seams to be able to do this quite well.

I'd be interest in FinishTiming's input on the efficacy of doing that?
 
That has been one of our proposals to hosts that want staggered starts. Starting a team every 30 seconds to a minute and you would just have one big race during the day instead of multiple races. So you could have a boys race that starts at say 9am and every 30 seconds you send off another team. Once last person finishes then you can start girls race. So girls race may be at 11:00 starting the same way as boys.

What everyone has to remember when doing wave/staggered starts.

If by team it is easier to know when you take off and clerk will be able to handle this much better (remember average age of officials)

If by individual (which some seem to think is so easy to do) you now have to clerk a bunch of kids and we all know how kids listen. Being in the wrong wave really messes things up and now takes more face to face interaction to fix which defeats the purpose of rules in place for this. Plus you now have to limit the amount per race as there are teams that may not have more than 7 or 8 runners and you will have groups of just a few in your later waves.

Another thing people seem to think is so easy is just put a mat at the start and let them cross that to get a chip time just like road racing. What you have to remember is that there are not a lot of timing companies that can not handle this as it takes different software than what we all use for xc plus not a lot of timers have enough equipment to handle a couple or more xc races in a day when equipment now doubled. There is one weekend we have 8 different xc meets in one day. I have enough equipment for that but not if I have to do start mats also.

Here are the guidelines I have been sending to host schools of how we should all be planning our xc meets so that we do not get suspended by someone thinking they can just do it any way they like. I have taken input from a lot if different sources form coaches, associations and just other states as to what will work according to our state mandates as of now.

  1. All athletes, coaches, and spectators must wear a mask except when running.
  2. Larger start boxes with at least 6’ - 8’ between boxes.
  3. Race course should be no narrower than 10’ at any point to allow 6’ between passing runners.
  4. Race size limit of 150 total for each race or whatever your local health dept guidelines for a large gathering. So if you have 20 teams then it will be varsity and jv races with max 7 per team allowed.
  5. No finish corral. Make athletes keep walking thru and go back to camp.
  6. Team camp spacing must be at least 15’ between each.
  7. If you have divisions (ms and Hs for instance) have each division at separate times with a gap between so that people and crowds can leave and new group can come in. (HS and ms teams should be traveling separately anyways for most schools).this could also be done for men/women.
  8. Have a form for coach to fill out that verifies all of his/her athletes had temperature checks and no symptoms before leaving from home.
  9. If using foot chips then all athletes will be given their chip by their coach and will return that chip to the coach after the race and the coach will then place them back into bag and return all chips to checkin.
    1. If using disposable chips on the bib, athletes must not wear their bib unless actually in a race. Remove bib immediately after race and only put on before reporting to start line.
  10. Clerking would be done either at checkin when coach picks up packet or at team camps as there would be no clerking at starting line.
  11. No run outs at starting line
  12. Athletes would show up to starting line no more than 5 minutes before race and stay in start box.
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
That has been one of our proposals to hosts that want staggered starts. Starting a team every 30 seconds to a minute and you would just have one big race during the day instead of multiple races. So you could have a boys race that starts at say 9am and every 30 seconds you send off another team. Once last person finishes then you can start girls race. So girls race may be at 11:00 starting the same way as boys.

What everyone has to remember when doing wave/staggered starts.

If by team it is easier to know when you take off and clerk will be able to handle this much better (remember average age of officials)

If by individual (which some seem to think is so easy to do) you now have to clerk a bunch of kids and we all know how kids listen. Being in the wrong wave really messes things up and now takes more face to face interaction to fix which defeats the purpose of rules in place for this. Plus you now have to limit the amount per race as there are teams that may not have more than 7 or 8 runners and you will have groups of just a few in your later waves.

Another thing people seem to think is so easy is just put a mat at the start and let them cross that to get a chip time just like road racing. What you have to remember is that there are not a lot of timing companies that can not handle this as it takes different software than what we all use for xc plus not a lot of timers have enough equipment to handle a couple or more xc races in a day when equipment now doubled. There is one weekend we have 8 different xc meets in one day. I have enough equipment for that but not if I have to do start mats also.

Here are the guidelines I have been sending to host schools of how we should all be planning our xc meets so that we do not get suspended by someone thinking they can just do it any way they like. I have taken input from a lot if different sources form coaches, associations and just other states as to what will work according to our state mandates as of now.

  1. All athletes, coaches, and spectators must wear a mask except when running.
  2. Larger start boxes with at least 6’ - 8’ between boxes.
  3. Race course should be no narrower than 10’ at any point to allow 6’ between passing runners.
  4. Race size limit of 150 total for each race or whatever your local health dept guidelines for a large gathering. So if you have 20 teams then it will be varsity and jv races with max 7 per team allowed.
  5. No finish corral. Make athletes keep walking thru and go back to camp.
  6. Team camp spacing must be at least 15’ between each.
  7. If you have divisions (ms and Hs for instance) have each division at separate times with a gap between so that people and crowds can leave and new group can come in. (HS and ms teams should be traveling separately anyways for most schools).this could also be done for men/women.
  8. Have a form for coach to fill out that verifies all of his/her athletes had temperature checks and no symptoms before leaving from home.
  9. If using foot chips then all athletes will be given their chip by their coach and will return that chip to the coach after the race and the coach will then place them back into bag and return all chips to checkin.
    1. If using disposable chips on the bib, athletes must not wear their bib unless actually in a race. Remove bib immediately after race and only put on before reporting to start line.
  10. Clerking would be done either at checkin when coach picks up packet or at team camps as there would be no clerking at starting line.
  11. No run outs at starting line
  12. Athletes would show up to starting line no more than 5 minutes before race and stay in start box.
These seem like VERY reasonable guidelines & very workable. It would be incumbent upon coaches to communicate expectations to their runners so as to maintain distancing, no pun intended. Congrats to FinishTiming's input on this matter. I hope it comes to fruition for the sake of thekids.
 

CC Track Fan

Active member
That has been one of our proposals to hosts that want staggered starts. Starting a team every 30 seconds to a minute and you would just have one big race during the day instead of multiple races. So you could have a boys race that starts at say 9am and every 30 seconds you send off another team. Once last person finishes then you can start girls race. So girls race may be at 11:00 starting the same way as boys.

What everyone has to remember when doing wave/staggered starts.

If by team it is easier to know when you take off and clerk will be able to handle this much better (remember average age of officials)

If by individual (which some seem to think is so easy to do) you now have to clerk a bunch of kids and we all know how kids listen. Being in the wrong wave really messes things up and now takes more face to face interaction to fix which defeats the purpose of rules in place for this. Plus you now have to limit the amount per race as there are teams that may not have more than 7 or 8 runners and you will have groups of just a few in your later waves.

Another thing people seem to think is so easy is just put a mat at the start and let them cross that to get a chip time just like road racing. What you have to remember is that there are not a lot of timing companies that can not handle this as it takes different software than what we all use for xc plus not a lot of timers have enough equipment to handle a couple or more xc races in a day when equipment now doubled. There is one weekend we have 8 different xc meets in one day. I have enough equipment for that but not if I have to do start mats also.

Here are the guidelines I have been sending to host schools of how we should all be planning our xc meets so that we do not get suspended by someone thinking they can just do it any way they like. I have taken input from a lot if different sources form coaches, associations and just other states as to what will work according to our state mandates as of now.

  1. All athletes, coaches, and spectators must wear a mask except when running.
  2. Larger start boxes with at least 6’ - 8’ between boxes.
  3. Race course should be no narrower than 10’ at any point to allow 6’ between passing runners.
  4. Race size limit of 150 total for each race or whatever your local health dept guidelines for a large gathering. So if you have 20 teams then it will be varsity and jv races with max 7 per team allowed.
  5. No finish corral. Make athletes keep walking thru and go back to camp.
  6. Team camp spacing must be at least 15’ between each.
  7. If you have divisions (ms and Hs for instance) have each division at separate times with a gap between so that people and crowds can leave and new group can come in. (HS and ms teams should be traveling separately anyways for most schools).this could also be done for men/women.
  8. Have a form for coach to fill out that verifies all of his/her athletes had temperature checks and no symptoms before leaving from home.
  9. If using foot chips then all athletes will be given their chip by their coach and will return that chip to the coach after the race and the coach will then place them back into bag and return all chips to checkin.
    1. If using disposable chips on the bib, athletes must not wear their bib unless actually in a race. Remove bib immediately after race and only put on before reporting to start line.
  10. Clerking would be done either at checkin when coach picks up packet or at team camps as there would be no clerking at starting line.
  11. No run outs at starting line
  12. Athletes would show up to starting line no more than 5 minutes before race and stay in start box.
Very good - solutions rather than excuses.
 

Nosono

New member
Agree with everything Finishtiming said with the exception of worrying about passing 6' away. I don't think this is a reasonable expectation for a competitive race. Whether you do wave or standard starts, there are going to be kids by each other in close proximity. Just going to have to be an accepted risk.
 
I like the idea of sending an entire team off every X seconds. Easier for meet management to manage, easier for officials, and easier for the timing company. Easier for the kids, too. They know that when their teammates run, they run also.
 

BuckeyeNation12

New member
Ohsaa just suspended scrimmages in August for contact sports. Since they have cross country as a contact sport, how are they going to have this meet August 15th? Are you going to change their mind by then? The only way I see it happening is if they can change cross country to a non-contact sport. We need to convince them that starting in different waves will help solve the problem.
 
Ohsaa just suspended scrimmages in August for contact sports. Since they have cross country as a contact sport, how are they going to have this meet August 15th? Are you going to change their mind by then? The only way I see it happening is if they can change cross country to a non-contact sport. We need to convince them that starting in different waves will help solve the problem.
In yesterday’s update, the OHSAA mentioned that they are reconsidering the contact sport designation for XC and field hockey, which was very good news.
 

grange45

Active member
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the staggered starts being the solution.

The main thing I see to stagger by team is that faster runners will be passing ALOT more runners (the slower runners) during the race, causing more exposure to everyone during the race. The top runners, under normal circumstances, are way ahead of the big congested pack. This is also the case for the super slow runners/walkers.

It would make more sense to stagger by times like heats in a track race but again then you have multiple schools intermingling when you are trying to separate schools.

My overall concern though: how many athletes after these races fall to the ground or are "out of it" at the finish. I can't see them being robots and immediately go to their camp right after the race. I can't think of a solution for this except for having the medical workers addressing this but I would be mad if I was a medical person and would have to do this when it could easily be avoided by simply not having the race.

I'm not trying to question everything but am trying to get some input to combat these things.
 
Do we think districts/regionals/state will have to use wave starts? How many teams will be able to start at one time? For instance, the Boardman starting line is big enough to accommodate a decent amount of teams starting at once while still distancing.
 

Running Man 101

Active member
Do we think districts/regionals/state will have to use wave starts? How many teams will be able to start at one time? For instance, the Boardman starting line is big enough to accommodate a decent amount of teams starting at once while still distancing.
According to the OHSAA update for this year, wave starts are not sanctioned.
 

grange45

Active member
A
Which side are you on?
View attachment 8723
Again, I'm not debating. These are the things that the higher ups are saying are the reasons they are questioning sports: social distancing, masks, and minimizing large gatherings. I'm looking for solutions and spouting clip art and graphs does not solve anything about playing sports what guidelines the higher ups give us.

Also, you are on the right side of that drawing most of the time.
 

mathking

Active member
With an XC race you are not looking to minimize people passing or being passed by other teams as much as to minimize people running near others for a long time. In particular athletes not on the same team, as teammates already likely have more close contact. By doing a wave start in teams you make it less likely that two athletes running about the same pace will end up near each other for a long stretch in a race. It will still happen, but if two teams start a minute apart one the athletes would have to make up a minute difference before they can run together.

Waves by team are a lot easier to score, particularly if you don’t have FAT, because it’s clear how much time to cut from each athlete.
 

Running Man 101

Active member
A

Again, I'm not debating. These are the things that the higher ups are saying are the reasons they are questioning sports: social distancing, masks, and minimizing large gatherings. I'm looking for solutions and spouting clip art and graphs does not solve anything about playing sports what guidelines the higher ups give us.

Also, you are on the right side of that drawing most of the time.
I know that I'm usually right, thank you for admitting it:confused:. My behavior is more consistent with the stick figure on the left though:giggle:.
 

xcandtrack

New member
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the staggered starts being the solution.

The main thing I see to stagger by team is that faster runners will be passing ALOT more runners (the slower runners) during the race, causing more exposure to everyone during the race. The top runners, under normal circumstances, are way ahead of the big congested pack. This is also the case for the super slow runners/walkers.

It would make more sense to stagger by times like heats in a track race but again then you have multiple schools intermingling when you are trying to separate schools.

My overall concern though: how many athletes after these races fall to the ground or are "out of it" at the finish. I can't see them being robots and immediately go to their camp right after the race. I can't think of a solution for this except for having the medical workers addressing this but I would be mad if I was a medical person and would have to do this when it could easily be avoided by simply not having the race.

I'm not trying to question everything but am trying to get some input to combat these things.
Contact between runners and runners spreading it to other runners is really the least of the issues. It is about community spread and the nature of an invitational XC meet in Ohio would likely be a very good environment to promote community spread. Even small meets bring together at least 600 athletes, coaches and staff. Plus 400+/- spectators all gathered around team camps, start and finish areas and port-a-toilettes for several hours. It's the large numbers and the amount of time spent together that's the problem we need to step back and take in the totality of the event.

I would suggest scheduled start times and strict on site limits. Basically have a team show-up, brief warm-up, run, cool down and leave. The entire team all boys and girls varsity and the slow all start at the same time. Yes, Woodridge start time is 10:00 a.m. everybody goes at 10:00 a.m. Since the races are only scored on time only the times matter. Put two or three teams (depending on the numbers on each team) on the line and start each wave 5 mins apart. 5 mins will string things out and minimize large groups passing. This gets them all in and out quickly, 90 mins.

No tents or camps, no fans on site.

This will require more smaller events. Is there enough capacity in the XC timing business, people and hardware? Organizing a total reformulated season would be a really tall order. Just putting on the regular same old season requires planning 4-5 months before the season. Putting this together 4 weeks out or less?
 

grange45

Active member
Beautiful.
The "This entire thing is a sick joke politics. Idiots like you will believe anything. I drive a Dodge Stratus! = Reason and Logic.
“You might have a PhD but I have a ged mother ....” from the movie the Ladykillers.

Could of sworn he also said the he was in some other profession too. But who cares.
 
Let's get real here. How is the meet going to go on. We are 2 weeks away and we have yet to see a map or a time schedule. I can live without a map, even though it would be nice. But, no time schedule. They came out and said there will now be 22 races. Do the math, 22 races, 30 mins a race, that is 11 hours of racing. We have no idea who will run when. What if you have to travel a few hours to this meet and your race is 8am? Are you getting a hotel or skipping the race? This would all be nice to know before Aug 6th!!!!!!!!
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
There is no way it is going to happen. If they try and have this and It becomes the debacle we all know it will turn into, it will doom the season. We need to start off with small meets. Responsible dual meets and meets of limited number of teams through September and then Large meets in October.
 
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