Ohio and surrounding states need to do better

Spartacus1987

Well-known member
The talent in Ohio is becoming borderline a joke now. Only one kid in the 2023 class in the 247 composite top 100. Same goes for the 2024 class. This is not just a problem in Ohio, the same things are happening in the border states such as Indiana, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. The talent is not there to build an elite college football program.

It is just waaaaay too hard to recruit kids from far away distances and get them to come to your school. If Damon Wilson for instance was in Pennsylvania and not Florida then I believe he’s a Buckeye. Same goes for Keon Keeley.

Programs like Georgia, Alabama, Miami have such a massive margin for error considering their location. Alabama the state for instance isn’t known to be a football factory but they do border Georgia and Florida which makes their recruiting that much easier. Not only is it closer to home for these kids but it makes it easier for coaching staffs down there to visit them. Massive disadvantage for Ohio State, the Big Ten, and Notre Dame.

What is the answer to all of this? That I don’t know, I’ve heard more 7 on 7 participation for players outside of their high schools as well as spring football but your state either has the elite athletes or it doesn’t so not sure that’s the answer.

States in the north continue to lose population due to lack of jobs and just god awful state politics and people do not want to live there. Most of the black population in this country also resides in the southeast and let’s be real, the best athletes are black.

Regardless something needs to be done, something needs to change immediately because the Midwest is being completely destroyed on the national stage in recruiting and on the field.
 

cjb5656

Well-known member
The talent in Ohio is becoming borderline a joke now. Only one kid in the 2023 class in the 247 composite top 100. Same goes for the 2024 class. This is not just a problem in Ohio, the same things are happening in the border states such as Indiana, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. The talent is not there to build an elite college football program.

It is just waaaaay too hard to recruit kids from far away distances and get them to come to your school. If Damon Wilson for instance was in Pennsylvania and not Florida then I believe he’s a Buckeye. Same goes for Keon Keeley.

Programs like Georgia, Alabama, Miami have such a massive margin for error considering their location. Alabama the state for instance isn’t known to be a football factory but they do border Georgia and Florida which makes their recruiting that much easier. Not only is it closer to home for these kids but it makes it easier for coaching staffs down there to visit them. Massive disadvantage for Ohio State, the Big Ten, and Notre Dame.

What is the answer to all of this? That I don’t know, I’ve heard more 7 on 7 participation for players outside of their high schools as well as spring football but your state either has the elite athletes or it doesn’t so not sure that’s the answer.

States in the north continue to lose population due to lack of jobs and just god awful state politics and people do not want to live there. Most of the black population in this country also resides in the southeast and let’s be real, the best athletes are black.

Regardless something needs to be done, something needs to change immediately because the Midwest is being completely destroyed on the national stage in recruiting and on the field.
Not much will change. Get used to it. The Midwest and Northeast populations are old and only a couple of those states have historically strong football cultures (OH and PA). The population has moved south and west and that’s where you’ll find the bulk of the football talent. You can’t move OSU, so it’s up to them to maintain an attractive enough program to lure the great players nationwide. So far, so good in that regard.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
Not much will change. Get used to it. The Midwest and Northeast populations are old and only a couple of those states have historically strong football cultures (OH and PA). The population has moved south and west and that’s where you’ll find the bulk of the football talent. You can’t move OSU, so it’s up to them to maintain an attractive enough program to lure the great players nationwide. So far, so good in that regard.
Did an internet search (wiki) average age of a person living in Ohio 39.6 in alabama 39.5, Fla. 42.7, Ga. 37.3, Indiana 38, Penn. 40.9, Ill., 38.8, not a big difference. Alabama had 6 players in 247's top 100, Georgia 5. Ohio 1. Ohio has a pop. of nearly 12 million, Ga. 11 million, Alabama 5 million. Age population has little to do with the talent disparity. In 247 bball rankings Ohio has 4 players in the top 100 why does Ohio have bball talent not football. I do agree OSU has to be able to recruit nationally and I remember people complain that Meyer did not focuis on Ohio enough.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
School age population has shrunk in Ohio from roughly 2.8 million in 1970 to about 1.9 million today. There just aren't nearly as many kids as there used to be.

The Ohio talent pool will continue to dwindle outside of the growing Columbus metro area, which for all of it's growth is nothing compared to bustling metro areas in the south and west.
 

Spartacus1987

Well-known member
School age population has shrunk in Ohio from roughly 2.8 million in 1970 to about 1.9 million today. There just aren't nearly as many kids as there used to be.

The Ohio talent pool will continue to dwindle outside of the growing Columbus metro area, which for all of it's growth is nothing compared to bustling metro areas in the south and west.
That's odd, are people just not reproducing like they used to? I did see a podcast that talked about a lot of people are choosing not to have kids as much anymore. I also heard that the "nuclear family" exists much more in the south especially with the black population vs up north.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
School age population has shrunk in Ohio from roughly 2.8 million in 1970 to about 1.9 million today. There just aren't nearly as many kids as there used to be.

The Ohio talent pool will continue to dwindle outside of the growing Columbus metro area, which for all of it's growth is nothing compared to bustling metro areas in the south and west.
Average age of a person in Alabama and Ohio is the same even though life expectancy in Ohio is higher. Ohio has a pop. of 12 million, Alabama 5 million, I am just taking a guess, but I would say Ohio has double the amount of H.S. students than Alabama yet Alabama has 6 top 100 players in 247 ratings compared to Ohio's 1. It is more than just a population shift.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
That's odd, are people just not reproducing like they used to? I did see a podcast that talked about a lot of people are choosing not to have kids as much anymore. I also heard that the "nuclear family" exists much more in the south especially with the black population vs up north.
People of reproductive age have been leaving the Midwest and Northeast for the sun belt in droves for the last 20-25 years.

Look up school age population trends. Most if not nearly all states in the Midwest and Northeast presently have 25%-50% fewer school age children than they did in 1970. Meanwhile, growing states in the sun belt have increased their school age populations by 30%-50% in the same time frame.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
Actually I did an internet search there are 1.6 million students in public schools in Ohio, 726 k in Alabama. 1.7 million in Georgia yet Ohio does not have the top talent (football) these two states have according to the recruiting sites.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Average age of a person in Alabama and Ohio is the same even though life expectancy in Ohio is higher. Ohio has a pop. of 12 million, Alabama 5 million, I am just taking a guess, but I would say Ohio has double the amount of H.S. students than Alabama yet Alabama has 6 top 100 players in 247 ratings compared to Ohio's 1. It is more than just a population shift.
Educated guess, on a "per capita" basis places like Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana have done well producing recruits and NFL talent since integration in college athletics in the south.

The gap in African-American population between Ohio and Alabama is probably not that big (roughly 27% of Alabama's population is black as compared to 13-14% in Ohio) relative to Ohio's significantly larger total state population. Close to a 1/3rd of Georgia's population is black, and I'd bet the school age population % is much higher than that.

2nd factor: in the Midwest and Northeast, where does the bulk of the above population reside? Inner cities. Basketball trumps football in Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, NYC, etc., and unless a kid attends a parochial high school or a football factory like Cleveland Glenville or Detroit Cass Tech, odds are the resources available to them to develop as a football athlete are very subpar. The overwhelming majority of inner city football programs in Ohio are God awful, and most mid-size cities (think Middletown, Lima, Canton, Springfield, etc.) are at best highly erratic and inconsistent.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
Educated guess, on a "per capita" basis places like Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana have done well producing recruits and NFL talent since integration in college athletics in the south.

The gap in African-American population between Ohio and Alabama is probably not that big (roughly 27% of Alabama's population is black as compared to 13-14% in Ohio) relative to Ohio's significantly larger total state population. Close to a 1/3rd of Georgia's population is black, and I'd bet the school age population % is much higher than that.

2nd factor: in the Midwest and Northeast, where does the bulk of the above population reside? Inner cities. Basketball trumps football in Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, NYC, etc., and unless a kid attends a parochial high school or a football factory like Cleveland Glenville or Detroit Cass Tech, odds are the resources available to them to develop as a football athlete are very subpar. The overwhelming majority of inner city football programs in Ohio are God awful, and most mid-size cities (think Middletown, Lima, Canton, Springfield, etc.) are at best highly erratic and inconsistent.
I agree with this. That is why I believe Ohio needs more" Glenvilles".
 

LCL

Active member
So let's agree, based on this thread. Ohio, in general, and Ohio State will only become better if people reproduce exclusively football players. That's gonna be a hard sell.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
School age population has shrunk in Ohio from roughly 2.8 million in 1970 to about 1.9 million today. There just aren't nearly as many kids as there used to be.

The Ohio talent pool will continue to dwindle outside of the growing Columbus metro area, which for all of it's growth is nothing compared to bustling metro areas in the south and west.
Bingo.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
Having a Glenville caliber program in each of the major urban districts would make a bigger impact on improving the recruiting talent pool in Ohio than adding spring football would IMO.
Agree. Football is a numbers game and as you pointed out Ohio is bleeding, especially in the old school traditional stalwart towns like Fremont, Massillon, Canton, Lorain, Youngstown, etc. The last thing we need is more specialization.
 
Spring Football and 7 on 7 are the answers to some, but what about the following?
1. Spring Practices do not benefit the kids as much as it is for the colleges. If Urban Meyer was evaluating a kid in the spring, he was looking more to why not to offer a kid, not so that he could offer him. It was to benefit him and his staff, not the athlete.
2. Stats will very, but for the sake of argument about 2% get the chance to play Division I college football. We are suppose to disrupt everything for 2% of the population? That makes sense.
3. In these days of limiting contact during the week of in season practice to lessen the chances of concussion. We are now suppose to add practices/scrimmages where the chances of becoming concussed become increased.
4. What happens to the kid's season when he suffers a surgery required injury participating in these spring practices/scrimmages, so colleges can evaluate a couple kids. No summer camps and no season so college coaches can evaluate 1 or 2 kids.
5. What happens to spring sports and the multi sport athlete? This wold kill spring sports in some areas. Kids would not play because all kids think they are getting DI scholarships and many would specialize to have that spring chance. The colleges will tell you that they want multi sport athletes, but this would do just the opposite.
6. Quality high school coaches are on the decline in all sports. How will this help football. Who will pay for the football coaches to put in a mini spring season? Are they suppose to do it for free? College coaches get bonuses for everything. This could cost us great coaches at the high school level. What about the multi sport coach?

This whole point of spring football in high school is for the benefit of college coaches. It is not done with the high school athlete or coach in mind. They are ruining college football, don't let them do it to high school.

In terms of 7 on 7. That is not football and is an attempt by the AAU types to get control of high school football players and grab cash. 7 v. 7 is not real football. If anyone is going to offer a Qb a D1 scholarship based on him throwing with no rush, seeing man coverage every snap and wearing a hat backwards deserves when he gets fired.

Let's hope OHSAA does not give in on these fronts. Let's not break a good seasonal system. You do not change high school sports to benefit college coaches or the 2% that will get to play college.
 

Hammerdrill

Well-known member
Urban Meyer said it himself that he wanted kids who played multiple sports. And the elite kids he was recruiting have the talent to do that, even at the biggest schools in the state. So there really is no value to the elite recruits that end up at Ohio State.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Urban Meyer said it himself that he wanted kids who played multiple sports. And the elite kids he was recruiting have the talent to do that, even at the biggest schools in the state. So there really is no value to the elite recruits that end up at Ohio State.
I agree entirely with the Urban perspective. Somebody that's an "elite" athlete should excel in 2-3 sports, even if they go to a high school with 3,000+ kids in the building.

Coaching/specialization has a point of diminishing returns at a young age. I have a relative that was formerly a non-football head coach at a major DFW area talent producing school. I remember and find it very interesting that he commented years ago that one of the biggest problems with Texas football and underperformance is that a lot of the higher rated in-state recruits that the Longhorns get are very overdeveloped and have less room for growth/improvement than an atypical rawer recruit from somewhere like say Florida or Georgia due to the differences in coaching level and strength/conditioning strength and performance at the high school level. There is real value to being an "athlete" that's well-rounded as opposed to being a specialized athlete through high school.
 

cjb5656

Well-known member
I agree entirely with the Urban perspective. Somebody that's an "elite" athlete should excel in 2-3 sports, even if they go to a high school with 3,000+ kids in the building.

Coaching/specialization has a point of diminishing returns at a young age. I have a relative that was formerly a non-football head coach at a major DFW area talent producing school. I remember and find it very interesting that he commented years ago that one of the biggest problems with Texas football and underperformance is that a lot of the higher rated in-state recruits that the Longhorns get are very overdeveloped and have less room for growth/improvement than an atypical rawer recruit from somewhere like say Florida or Georgia due to the differences in coaching level and strength/conditioning strength and performance at the high school level. There is real value to being an "athlete" that's well-rounded as opposed to being a specialized athlete through high school.
A lot of what you said about recruiting is true. You may see a kid from the suburbs with all the training tools he could ever want and all the food and protein he can put away everyday and he is a man amongst boys in HS, but the college coaches seem a little cool on him…but they are hot after a city kid who is raw and athletic, but is the roughly the same size as that suburban kid but maybe not eating as well, not getting as much rest, not the access to personal trainers, etc, and the college coaches see this kid can still reach another level of development when given those tools at college, while that suburban kid is already somewhat peaking in HS.
 

Omar

Well-known member
The talent in Ohio is becoming borderline a joke now. Only one kid in the 2023 class in the 247 composite top 100. Same goes for the 2024 class. This is not just a problem in Ohio, the same things are happening in the border states such as Indiana, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. The talent is not there to build an elite college football program.

It is just waaaaay too hard to recruit kids from far away distances and get them to come to your school. If Damon Wilson for instance was in Pennsylvania and not Florida then I believe he’s a Buckeye. Same goes for Keon Keeley.

Programs like Georgia, Alabama, Miami have such a massive margin for error considering their location. Alabama the state for instance isn’t known to be a football factory but they do border Georgia and Florida which makes their recruiting that much easier. Not only is it closer to home for these kids but it makes it easier for coaching staffs down there to visit them. Massive disadvantage for Ohio State, the Big Ten, and Notre Dame.

What is the answer to all of this? That I don’t know, I’ve heard more 7 on 7 participation for players outside of their high schools as well as spring football but your state either has the elite athletes or it doesn’t so not sure that’s the answer.

States in the north continue to lose population due to lack of jobs and just god awful state politics and people do not want to live there. Most of the black population in this country also resides in the southeast and let’s be real, the best athletes are black.

Regardless something needs to be done, something needs to change immediately because the Midwest is being completely destroyed on the national stage in recruiting and on the field.
Who cares? That’s not Ohio’s problem.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I agree entirely with the Urban perspective. Somebody that's an "elite" athlete should excel in 2-3 sports, even if they go to a high school with 3,000+ kids in the building.

Coaching/specialization has a point of diminishing returns at a young age. I have a relative that was formerly a non-football head coach at a major DFW area talent producing school. I remember and find it very interesting that he commented years ago that one of the biggest problems with Texas football and underperformance is that a lot of the higher rated in-state recruits that the Longhorns get are very overdeveloped and have less room for growth/improvement than an atypical rawer recruit from somewhere like say Florida or Georgia due to the differences in coaching level and strength/conditioning strength and performance at the high school level. There is real value to being an "athlete" that's well-rounded as opposed to being a specialized athlete through high school.
Recruits get a bump for playing high level competition in GA, FL, and Texas. The inverse is also true. There’s a ‘24 DE recruit for ND, TJ Lindsey, who is 3* only bc he plays football in Arkansas. You watch his HS film and he would still be play at a high level in any state.
 

Spartacus1987

Well-known member
Big Ten just went 0-2 in the semi final games but it’s ok because all that matters is that they made it and got to participate. At least that’s what some people think that’s all that matters. Midwest needs more home grown talent
 

cjb5656

Well-known member
Big Ten just went 0-2 in the semi final games but it’s ok because all that matters is that they made it and got to participate. At least that’s what some people think that’s all that matters. Midwest needs more home grown talent
How are you going to do it? Producing elite athletes is all about the genes. You can have a kid start youth football at age 3, get personal trainers and gurus, have spring football, 7 on 7 summer leagues, make all state four years in a row…but without certain physical and athletic traits…which are genetic…he’s not a D1 college recruit.

Are you going to start a program of matchmaking men and women with elite genetics, disperse them throughout the Midwest, demand all their male offspring focus on football and that they are loyal to State U from birth?

I’m seriously not understanding how you can remedy the demographics of the USA. People are moving south and west.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
The talent is down south and in Kalifornia for whatever the reasons. Penn. Ohio, Ill, NJ pop is just as big as the south and average age is not that much different it comes down to priorities football is not as important in Ohio as it once was just look at the attendance figures at the state championship games. Ohio is no longer a football state.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
Big Ten just went 0-2 in the semi final games but it’s ok because all that matters is that they made it and got to participate. At least that’s what some people think that’s all that matters. Midwest needs more home grown talent
Need to add a Fla. school to the BIG for recruiting imprint into Fla. Adding USC and UCLA will help with recruiting into California. Adding Rutgers and Md. did nothing for recruiting was only done for tv exposure.
 

cjb5656

Well-known member
The talent is down south and in Kalifornia for whatever the reasons. Penn. Ohio, Ill, NJ pop is just as big as the south and average age is not that much different it comes down to priorities football is not as important in Ohio as it once was just look at the attendance figures at the state championship games. Ohio is no longer a football state.
The talent is down south and out west because it’s better weather. There also tends to be bigger schools in many of those states. Ohio football would still have a demographics issue, but quality of play would likely improve with school district consolidation. That would likely cut down participation numbers, though, cut into community spirit…which is waning in HS sports nationwide, and would still not significantly increase the numbers of blue chip recruits.
 
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