OATCCC Proposal To Be Considered By OHSAA

ccrunner609

Active member
Let football eat themselves from within with that. As for CC/Track, only the OHSAA can run these sports at a loss and step on the coaches and athletes feet by limiting participation at post season events (where you make your bank) and applying stupid rules that have no perceived advantages to them.
 

bucksman

Moderator
One factor people fail to consider in why regular season events make money and the state tournament does not is the presence of entry fees for regular season events. Charge "x" dollars times the number of teams in the event gives you a revenue foundation prior to the start of the event.
 

grange45

Active member
Members of the oatccc do most the prep work for the xc state meet and the ohsaa can easily make a profit with adding one more division.

The state track meet is very similar.

I still can’t get my head around why ohsaa complains about being in the negative with their funds when there is an easy solution.
 
Yes, Mr.Slippery, there is some beating of the dead horse (Centerville, headgear, Hebon, etc.)
What about the results?
I appreciate your incite to the teams and posting about their history. I hope this week will be about results and predictions. For me this is not my
favorite week, that is in August at the start when there are 30 or more to coach, this week only 7 and in a few days it will end. That sounded gloomy.
Ok, so I will get to a prediction about who will set the all time D2 low score at state. They were helped quite a bit by Shelby not qualifying, but should pull it off regardless. Unioto looks like second coming out of regionals, with Defiance and Bay close.
 

grange45

Active member
Just an FYI... the oatccc is meeting next Saturday to again work on 4 divisions for track to present again to ohsaa. They haven’t given up to fight for the right thing.

Let’s keep optimistic and hope oatccc is assertive, convincing, and ready to throw down.
 

grange45

Active member
I would like to bring this from the dead. I mentioned this in another thread but thought it would better be discussed on its own:

I can really see now the OHSAA doing 4 divisions for track and field (and XC for that matter) next year to fill the hole they will be in financially in the years to come. They are going to take a humongous hit (and already are). I'd love to hear others input concerning this.
 
It is exceedingly unlikely there will be 4 divisions next year. OHSAA cannot act quickly enough for that to happen. There's a will for this, especially by the coaches association, but no way it happens soon.
 

grange45

Active member
It would very easy for cross country: you add 2 races and gain a ton of revenue.

OATCCC already has everything squared away for track as well thanks to Loveland's coach. They did all the leg work and its all about how much extra money OHSAA can make.
 
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CC Track Fan

Active member
It would very easy for cross country: you add 2 races and gain a ton of revenue.

OATCCC already has everything squared away for track as well thanks to Loveland's coach. They did all the leg work and its all about how much extra money OHSAA can make.
Plus don't forget about all the extra revenue when you would have an addition 60 or so team at regional meets. That is where OHSAA make their big money on CC.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Why don't they just play league games/ regular season , then everyone starts in the tournament like every other sport? And, Does 12 even make sense? Wouldn't you go to 16? I can't wrap my head around 12...
 
If they go 16 would there be some in with a losing record? This is no issue with me but may not be the perception of how special it is to make the playoffs that OHSAA pushes.
 

runohio

Member
Getting like college football - 130 Division I teams and 40 bowl games last year - with 3 more bowl games added this year.
 
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psycho_dad

Well-known member
If they go 16 would there be some in with a losing record? This is no issue with me but may not be the perception of how special it is to make the playoffs that OHSAA pushes.
Doesn't matter. 12 teams has to have 4 teams with a bye week. What good does that do? 16 teams whittles down to a winner in the same number of weeks. 8-4-2-1 I think the "specialness" became a facade when they went to 7 divisions.

This will obviously make it easier for CC and Track and Field to go to 4 divisions right?
 
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Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
If they go 16 would there be some in with a losing record? This is no issue with me but may not be the perception of how special it is to make the playoffs that OHSAA pushes.
Teams with losing records have been making the playoffs for years. Computer points decide who makes the playoffs rather than overall record. In the early 2000s, Walsh Jesuit made the playoffs with a 3-6 record. Their 3 wins came against bigger schools that won a lot of games, so they had a high enough Harbin average to finish in the top 8 of their region and qualify. For only the 2nd time in OHSAA playoff history, a team went undefeated this past fall and failed to make the playoffs.

Making the playoffs in football has become less special for awhile, Here's the timeline:
1972 - OHSAA playoffs begin. There are only 3 classes, and only the top team in the computer poll in each region qualifies. Total number of teams in playoffs = 12.

1980 - OHSAA expands to 5 divisions. The top 2 teams in the computer poll in each region qualify. Total number of teams in playoffs = 40.

1985 - OHSAA expands to include the top 4 teams in the computer poll in each region as playoff qualifiers. Total number of teams in playoffs = 80.

1994 - OHSAA expands to 6 divisions. Playoff qualifiers remain the top 4 teams in the computer poll in each region. Total number of teams in playoffs = 96.

1999 - OHSAA expands to include the top 8 teams in the computer poll in each region as playoff qualifiers. Also, 1st round games are hosted by the higher seeded team. Total number of teams in the playoffs = 192. That's when the playoffs jumped the shark, IMHO.

2014 - OHSAA expands to 7 divisions in order to address the enrollment disparity present among the schools which previously competed in Division I. Division I is reduced to the top 72 teams in male enrollment with the other schools distributed relatively evenly among the other 6 divisions by enrollment. Playoff qualifiers remain the top 8 teams in the computer poll in each region except for Division I which consists of only 2 regions but takes the top 16 teams in the computer poll in each region as playoff qualifiers. Total number of teams in playoffs = 224.

2016 - OHSAA modifies Division I by distributing the 72 teams equally among 4 regions with the top 8 in the computer poll in each region qualifying for the playoffs. The other 6 divisions operate as they previously did. Total number of teams in playoffs remains 224.

2021 - OHSAA expands to include the top 12 teams in the computer poll in each region as playoff qualifiers. The top 4 teams in each region will have 1st round byes. Total number of teams in playoffs = 336.


There are slightly less than 720 schools that currently play 11-man football in Ohio. 8-man football is gaining viability, so some smaller schools have opted to go that route, and perhaps more schools will follow. An 8-man league has formed in NW Ohio.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Doesn't matter. 12 teams has to have 4 teams with a bye week. What good does that do? 16 teams whittles down to a winner in the same number of weeks. 8-4-2-1 I think the "specialness" became a facade when they went to 7 divisions.

This will obviously make it easier for CC and Track and Field to go to 4 divisions right?
IMHO, it stopped being special when the football playoffs expanded to 8 teams per region back in 1999. Prior to that, teams not only had to be good, but they also had to be willing to schedule some challenging opponents in order to have enough points to make the playoffs. Once '99 hit, more teams started to view the playoffs as a realistic goal which sounds good on the surface, but I think it has led to more schools becoming cautious with their scheduling. Only twice in 20 years has a team gone 10-0 and not made the playoffs under the 8 team per region format. It was far more common for teams to go 10-0 and not make the playoffs prior to '99. Gibsonburg did it this year partly due to how the regions were constructed and also due to their bottom 4 opponents going a combined 3-37. Newcomerstown did it in 2001. They moved up to DIV that year but played in a primarily DV-DVI league. Their bottom 6 opponents went a combined 7-53 with 2 more of their opponents each going 4-6. They weren't even close to qualifying as they finished 12th in their region.

If it's me, there are 3 options:
1. Go to 16 qualifiers per region.

2. Cut a week from the regular season and let everyone qualify and figure out a way to split the revenue from the 1st round games because a 9-game regular season would mean that some schools would lose out on revenue from not having a 5th home game.

3. Let everyone qualify but extend the season to where the playoffs end 1 week later. However, that is the least workable because of how many games would need to be played on Thanksgiving weekend and because of the playoffs extending to the 2nd weekend of December. That is a difficult week to find sites to host games. That weekend is semifinals weekend now which means you needed to find 14 sites. Under this scenario, you would have to find 28 sites and would then need to find 14 more for the following weekend when basketball season is in full swing for most schools. Good luck. The other possibility would be to start the regular season another week earlier than it will in 2021, but I don't see most coaches wanting to play games around August 15.
 
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grange45

Active member
I think OHSAA needing money makes it easier to go to 4 divisions.
I said it two months ago. T&F and xc will be next. It’s long overdue. It’s a money maker... but more importantly, if they do it right, it will level the playing field for teams to compete against similar schools.
 

grange45

Active member
This is the best argument for a change, comparing it to other sports is a mistake.
It is not about safety or the money. It's about time and effort. For about the billionth time, the OHSAA is a non profit organization. They do not need to make money on everything. It's easy to make money with football and basketball. It takes much more time and effort to do it with Cross Country and Track & Field. Why work harder if you don't have to? The OHSAA just started allowing more teams and individuals into the state Cross Country meet and State Track & Field meet per the divisions already in place. They have almost added the same number of athletes as if they had added a full division. They will take baby steps, but they aren't jumping off a cliff without allowing those changes to settle in for awhile. How can they not be making money on Track & Field? Has to be facilities fees. Ticket prices stayed the same for over 10 years now. No idea what they charge vendors, but that's a gold mine if they wanted it to be. If you needed it to make money, it easily could. If you wanted it to make a lot of money, I don't think it would be Jesse Owens.

Any of us that hold invitationals do not do it to lose money. If we lost money, we would not do it anymore. There are a lot of invitationals out there, so there must be money to be made. It takes some effort though. If you start at the District level and go through to the state meet, there has to be close to 60 meets in there. I'm sure Fitch would not want to hold a Regional if it was a money loser. So, don't kid yourself that it's a money thing. It's an easy vs hard thing.

I was shocked that the OHSAA went to 20 teams in CC. Then they went with extra kids on the track and then very shortly after that allowed extra qualifiers for field events. Let's be thankful for that and not be so critical. I knew as soon as they made those concessions, a 4th division in either sport is going to only be triggered by teams at the district numbers. It isn't coming very soon.

As far as the OHSAA dropping the numbers, it's just how the numbers work. The OHSAA does not control the population.

Football is a joke and it has nothing to do with safety.
This is a post from September. Remember non profits like the ohsaa still need to bank on ticket sales in order to survive.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
I heard on the radio yesterday that the OHSAA has a plan to be solvent even without football. That shows me that they can make money on other sports if they choose. We will see, It may be a good thing where the OHSAA will put more into other sports going forward after being forced to this year. Or, it could be the death of the OHSAA and the OATCCC has to become the governing body for track and field and CC.
 
In cross country many high school invitationals make a boatload of money from their t-shirt sales. With the right silk-screening company and even with extremely fair prices being charged to the athletes there are many invitational turning a nice profit on their meets that they sponsor. I know of several meets that use the same company, Viewpoint Graphics out of Tiffin and these high schools do quite well with their t-shirt profits. Three of these meets are the Tiffin Cross Country Carnival, The Galion Cross Country Festival, and the Medina Cross Country Festival. Over 30 years ago I asked a top tier official from the OHSAA about the cost/profit breakdown for the t-shirt sales at the cross country tournaments in Ohio. He said that he did know know much about that. When I told him how well our invitational had done concerning our profits from t-shirt sales, he was shocked (and we weren't price gouging the public. The point that I am trying to make is that I wonder who is benefiting the most from the t-shirt sales at the tournaments. Perhaps the OHSAA could be more vigilant about their contract with whatever company wins the right to make/sell the t-shirts. Maybe, they are overlooking a great source of revenue and a better deal could bring in more money for the OHSAA. It seems to me that the OHSAA could be making tens of thousands of more dollars concerning this avenue.
 

madman

Active member
The last I knew, the OHSAA gave the merchandizing contract for ALL sports to the same company. That was several years ago and was an out-of-state company.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Pack it with vendors and make the state meet a real carnival feel. Has to be a way to order pictures right there and then delivered to your email or specially framed and delivered to your home. I would have dropped some money for some pictures of my kids crossing the finish line or some good action shot of them or even podium shots from a professional in a special frame. But only while I was there. As soon as my car was out of the parking lot, I'm on to the next thing. Even T-shirts with customized podium pictures on them would be big. I bought some food at NT at the little store that was open once, but I'm not standing in line forever to get food. Line the place with food trucks and it would make a killing. I love chocolate milk, but there might be more sponsors out there willing to put more money into it. Might be a good time for kids to by new training shoes for their winter training. Pull shoe vendors from the 5 different regions. Ton that could be done to make money without a ton of effort.
 
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